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Old 4th August 2022, 04:28 PM   #41
Gord_in_Toronto
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, I was never a member at all, though I went to a few services as a Scout, and went to a C of E school, so not particularly an expert either!
Ah I forgot about the seven years of C of E school school thing. Maybe we both are experts?

It was the religion classes that turned me toward atheism. God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, in particular.
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Old 4th August 2022, 05:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I tried Googling >Jesus sex< to see if he had had anything to say on the topic and the answer appears to be "No".

However, I did find,

Was Jesus gay? Probably

It's by Paul Oestreicher. "Paul Oestreicher is an Anglican priest, and peace and human rights activist".

Not excommunicated yet?

An excerpt from your Guardian article:

Quote:
That disciple was John whom Jesus, the gospels affirm, loved in a special way. All the other disciples had fled in fear. Three women but only one man had the courage to go with Jesus to his execution. That man clearly had a unique place in the affection of Jesus. In all classic depictions of the Last Supper, a favourite subject of Christian art, John is next to Jesus, very often his head resting on Jesus's breast.
The Darvinci Code makes a big deal about one of the Last Supper depictions also - reading hidden meanings in it. I don't get it...... I mean why should an artist have a special insight into the gospels. It's not as if he made a sketch at the time the Last Supper.
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Old 4th August 2022, 05:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The Darvinci Code makes a big deal about one of the Last Supper depictions also - reading hidden meanings in it. I don't get it...... I mean why should an artist have a special insight into the gospels. It's not as if he made a sketch at the time the Last Supper.
As I understand it: Da Vinci was part of a group dating from the start of Christianity that 'knew' the real truth about what had happened after Jesus died.
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
As I understand it: Da Vinci was part of a group dating from the start of Christianity that 'knew' the real truth about what had happened after Jesus died.

Yes right - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci (15 April 1452 – 2 May 1519)
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:42 PM   #45
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Also if you stare at the Last Supper and cross your eyes, you'll see a sailboat.

All that talent and he still found time to become a master ninja and defeat the Shredder.
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Old 4th August 2022, 10:56 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Everybody is as wrong as I am" is very important to some people.
'Everybody should be the same wrong as I am.'
FTFY
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Old 4th August 2022, 11:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
As I understand it: Da Vinci was part of a group dating from the start of Christianity that 'knew' the real truth about what had happened after Jesus died.
It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the secret conspiracy to hide the truth about Jesus was kind of the entire point of the story.
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Old 5th August 2022, 02:39 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Ah I forgot about the seven years of C of E school school thing. Maybe we both are experts?

It was the religion classes that turned me toward atheism. God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, in particular.
Still, it helped inspire Highway 61 Revisited, so that's something in its favour...
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Old 5th August 2022, 05:32 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
'Everybody should be the same wrong as I am.'
FTFY
No that would at least be (a very, very, very weird) kind of honest.

Hopefully this won't hijack the discussion to much (if so it can be spun off) but wrongness is more intellectually honest than wishy-washy "right and wrong don't really exist" glibness.

"God exists and have facts to prove it" when you don't actually have facts to prove it is wrong.

When you're argued into a corner (and religious folks usually do us the favor of just starting in the corner to save time) and when you have no where else to go making a bland, glib "Stupid game I don't want to play anyway" statement about how "Okay but you're just taking everything on faith / none of it really matters" statement is far, far worse.

Penn Jillette said this is way he, ironically, gets on far better with religious extremists than with religious moderates.

Even when 100% if you go "This is how the world is" you are stating what you think is a fact, you are acknowledging the concept of a fact. The whole wishy-washy "Oh there's no truth, we all just have our own viewpoint, all are valid" nonsense is A) far more intellectually harmful and B) how you talk to a child.
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Old 5th August 2022, 06:47 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Still, it helped inspire Highway 61 Revisited, so that's something in its favour...
I must say I was thinking the same thing, and now I have that earworm again.
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Old 5th August 2022, 08:18 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I must say I was thinking the same thing, and now I have that earworm again.
There are many worse things than to have that as an earworm.
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Old 5th August 2022, 09:06 AM   #52
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I'm not too familiar with Anglican doctrine on this topic, and apologies if this has already been addressed, but what's the actual position? Are we talking about "sex outside of marriage is and always has been a sin, and our church doesn't marry gays, so obviously gay sex is always a sin"? Or are we talking about "experiencing sexual attraction to someone of the same sex is inherently sinful"?
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Old 5th August 2022, 12:30 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not too familiar with Anglican doctrine on this topic, and apologies if this has already been addressed, but what's the actual position? Are we talking about "sex outside of marriage is and always has been a sin, and our church doesn't marry gays, so obviously gay sex is always a sin"? Or are we talking about "experiencing sexual attraction to someone of the same sex is inherently sinful"?
Yes. No. Probably. Maybe. But you'll have to ask an expert. Maybe zooterkin?
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Old 5th August 2022, 02:07 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not too familiar with Anglican doctrine on this topic, and apologies if this has already been addressed, but what's the actual position? Are we talking about "sex outside of marriage is and always has been a sin, and our church doesn't marry gays, so obviously gay sex is always a sin"? Or are we talking about "experiencing sexual attraction to someone of the same sex is inherently sinful"?
Church of England’s view is sex is only sort-of OK between a wife and her husband. Any other sex is sinful, sex between same sex partners is extra naughty.
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Old 5th August 2022, 02:29 PM   #55
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I thought the church of englands view was all fluffy and let people do what they want, then someone started pontificating.
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Old 5th August 2022, 03:22 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I thought the church of englands view was all fluffy and let people do what they want, then someone started pontificating.
That's true for the Anglican churches in the Western countries, but certainly not true for the Anglican churches in Africa. The topic of the ordination of women and recognising same-sex marriage, particularly of their clergy, will lead to a HUGE schism in the church in the next few years. (I have an 'inside source' on these matters!)

From Wiki on the Anglican Church of Nigeria:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Nigeria

Quote:
The Church of Nigeria is the Anglican church in Nigeria. It is the second-largest province in the Anglican Communion, as measured by baptised membership (not by attendance), after the Church of England...

The Church of Nigeria has continuously opposed the liberal inclinations of the Episcopal Church of the United States and the Anglican Church of Canada, which led to the acceptance of non-celibate homosexuality and non-celibate homosexual clergy. The church has also opposed the decisions made by the Church of England to accept celibate same-sex relationships and clergy in celibate same-sex relationships, including civil unions.
And, as a result:

Quote:
On November 12, 2005, the church entered into a "Covenant of Concordat" with the Reformed Episcopal Church and the Anglican Province of America, two conservative groups of Anglican origin but outside the Anglican Communion, which do not recognize the Episcopal Church USA. In October and December 2006, several Episcopal churches in Virginia declared themselves out of communion with the Episcopal Church USA due to their opposition to their stance on homosexuality and joined the Church of Nigeria through the Convocation of Anglicans in North America, a mission originally started by the Church of Nigeria to support Nigerian Anglicans in the United States...

The Church of Nigeria is currently in full communion with the Anglican Church in North America, founded in June 2009, launched as a conservative alternative to the liberal tendencies of the Episcopal Church of the United States and the Anglican Church of Canada.[18] The first of four new American dioceses for the ACNA established by the Church of Nigeria, under the oversight of the missionary bishop of CANA, was the Missionary Diocese of the Trinity which was inaugurated on 19 August 2012 by Archbishop Nicholas Okoh.
The Anglican Church of Nigeria is starting to colonise the church in the USA!
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Old 6th August 2022, 12:03 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So the question REALLY is: Which version of the rules for Anglican Dungeons-and-Dragons is going to be the most popular?
The Western churches use a lot of homebrew. The ones in Africa prefer the original boxed set.
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Old 7th August 2022, 07:00 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Moving with the times, as ever, the Archbishop of Canterbury affirms that the position of the 1198, sorry 1998, declaration that gay sex is a sin, still holds.

This obviously has no direct bearing on pretty much all the members here, given that most are probably atheists, and few of the rest are Anglican, but it is still a disappointing statement to come out in 2022, since there are people in a position of influence who still take their guidance from the church.
Would you agree that homosexuality is unnatural conduct for humans? Nature knows of no species where creatures of the same gender form relationships of any duration that include multiple engagements in sexual acts.

Would you acknowledge that numerous studies show that gay men have a far higher rate of STDs than straight men? This is because homosexual intercourse is inherently riskier than normal intercourse.

In most cases, when such facts are raised, liberals deflect by alleging "homophobia." I don't think I've ever met a conservative who would even come close to suffering from "homophobia." Liberals should look up some of the words they use before they use them.

"Homophobia" literally means having an extreme or irrational fear of homosexuals. Personally, I've worked with many homosexuals over the years and got along just fine with them, just as I've worked with some swingers and serial adulterers and got along fine with them.

I don't think anyone should be judged solely on the basis of their sexual preferences, unless those preferences involve pedophilia, rape, or inflicting serious harm on others against their will. If it's sexual activity between two consenting adults, I really couldn't care less about it as far as how I interact with those persons. Most conservatives--not all, but most--feel the same way.
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Old 7th August 2022, 07:27 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Would you agree that homosexuality is unnatural conduct for humans?
No.
Quote:
Nature knows of no species where creatures of the same gender form relationships of any duration that include multiple engagements in sexual acts.
Bollocks.
Quote:
Would you acknowledge that numerous studies show that gay men have a far higher rate of STDs than straight men? This is because homosexual intercourse is inherently riskier than normal intercourse.
Not sure what your point is, and I'm pretty sure you're wrong anyway.
Quote:

I don't think anyone should be judged solely on the basis of their sexual preferences,
Then what, exactly, was the point of your post?
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Old 7th August 2022, 07:57 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
...snip...

"Homophobia" literally means having an extreme or irrational fear of homosexuals. ...snip...

...snip....
English doesn't work that way - the root words from a foreign language do not dictate what an English word means, that is done via usage by English speakers and the word homophobia means "dislike of or prejudice against gay people".
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Old 7th August 2022, 08:49 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
English doesn't work that way - the root words from a foreign language do not dictate what an English word means, that is done via usage by English speakers and the word homophobia means "dislike of or prejudice against gay people".
It's odd how all the X-phobia words I can think of mean something like "an irrational fear or aversion", except when applied to identity groups that have been the subject of left wing activism. Maybe it's the same thing as we see with racism, where the word becomes so politically useful that it is continually being applied more and more broadly to the point where, like transphobia, it just means "you disagree with us politically".

Supposedly the man who coined the term intended it to imply that homophobes were suffering some kind of irrational mental condition. Pathologizing people's disagreement so it doesn't have to be addressed goes back quite a bit further, of course. Sluggish schizophrenia etc.
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Old 7th August 2022, 09:46 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's odd how all the X-phobia words I can think of mean something like "an irrational fear or aversion", except when applied to identity groups that have been the subject of left wing activism. Maybe it's the same thing as we see with racism, where the word becomes so politically useful that it is continually being applied more and more broadly to the point where, like transphobia, it just means "you disagree with us politically".

Supposedly the man who coined the term intended it to imply that homophobes were suffering some kind of irrational mental condition. Pathologizing people's disagreement so it doesn't have to be addressed goes back quite a bit further, of course. Sluggish schizophrenia etc.
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Old 7th August 2022, 01:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
That's true for the Anglican churches in the Western countries, but certainly not true for the Anglican churches in Africa....
Agreed.

While the Church of England in England has re-framed itself as a cosy 'everyone's-welcome-let's-all-be-friends-and-have-cup-of-tea-we're-all-talking-about-the-same-God-when-it-comes-down-to-it-and-even-if-you-don't-beĺieve-I-can-rely-on-you-for-a-donation-towards-the-church-roof-fund-can't-I-because-it's-historical-and-we-have-no-money-or-influence-at-all-honestly' version of Christianity, the satellite Churches that their forebears set up during Britain's imperial era (that now form the majority of the Anglican Communion) seem to have largely retained the more judgemental, Victorian attitudes of their founders.

I think it is only a matter of time before many of these stricter, more authoritarian, more traditional Anglican churches reject the authority of what they may come to see as a weak and degenerate Lambeth, that panders to the secular powers to keep a seat at the table.

Should be fun . After all, what's Christianity without a schism?
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Old 7th August 2022, 08:00 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, Jesus never said that. Paul did. 1 Cor 7-8.
And then, as Christians were dying out without Jesus returning real soon as Paul had assured them he would, someone had to forge a "newly discovered" letter from the since dead Paul saying it was actually OK to do the do.
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Old 7th August 2022, 10:16 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not too familiar with Anglican doctrine on this topic, and apologies if this has already been addressed, but what's the actual position? Are we talking about "sex outside of marriage is and always has been a sin, and our church doesn't marry gays, so obviously gay sex is always a sin"? Or are we talking about "experiencing sexual attraction to someone of the same sex is inherently sinful"?
See post 2.
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:34 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Would you agree that homosexuality is unnatural conduct for humans?
How can anything that happens in nature be unnatural? What is natural, Mike?

Quote:
Nature mikegriffith1 knows of no species where creatures of the same gender form relationships of any duration that include multiple engagements in sexual acts.
Fixed it for you.

Quote:
Would you acknowledge that numerous studies show that gay men have a far higher rate of STDs than straight men? This is because homosexual intercourse is inherently riskier than normal intercourse.
Citations? I realize that homophobes are only capable of visualizing anal sex when they think about homosexuality, but from the research I've read, homosexual male couples only engage in anal sex at about the same frequency as heterosexual couples. I mean, that's what this is about, right?

Quote:
In most cases, when such facts are raised...
I haven't seen you raise any facts, just an assertion.

Quote:
...liberals deflect by alleging "homophobia." I don't think I've ever met a conservative who would even come close to suffering from "homophobia." Liberals should look up some of the words they use before they use them.
ho·mo·pho·bi·a

[,hōməˈfōbēə]

NOUN

dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

synonyms: prejudice · partiality · partisanship · favoritism · unfairness · one-sidedness · bigotry · intolerance · racism · racialism · sexism · heterosexism · chauvinism · anti-Semitism · discrimination...

Sounds about right.

Quote:
"Homophobia" literally means having an extreme or irrational fear of homosexuals. Personally, I've worked with many homosexuals over the years and got along just fine with them.
I'll bet they didn't read any of your internet posts about homosexuality. Or maybe they didn't like you as much as you thought they did.

Quote:
I don't think anyone should be judged solely on the basis of their sexual preferences, unless those preferences involve pedophilia, rape, or inflicting serious harm on others against their will. If it's sexual activity between two consenting adults, I really couldn't care less about it as far as how I interact with those persons. Most conservatives--not all, but most--feel the same way.
Citation, please? Let's see the polling showing that most conservatives couldn't care less what consenting adults do with other consenting adults of any gender?
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:30 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
How can anything that happens in nature be unnatural? What is natural, Mike?


Fixed it for you.


Citations? I realize that homophobes are only capable of visualizing anal sex when they think about homosexuality, but from the research I've read, homosexual male couples only engage in anal sex at about the same frequency as heterosexual couples. I mean, that's what this is about, right?


I haven't seen you raise any facts, just an assertion.


ho·mo·pho·bi·a

[,hōməˈfōbēə]

NOUN

dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

synonyms: prejudice · partiality · partisanship · favoritism · unfairness · one-sidedness · bigotry · intolerance · racism · racialism · sexism · heterosexism · chauvinism · anti-Semitism · discrimination...

Sounds about right.


I'll bet they didn't read any of your internet posts about homosexuality. Or maybe they didn't like you as much as you thought they did.


Citation, please? Let's see the polling showing that most conservatives couldn't care less what consenting adults do with other consenting adults of any gender?
What makes you think they could care?
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:42 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Would you agree that homosexuality is unnatural conduct for humans? Nature knows of no species where creatures of the same gender form relationships of any duration that include multiple engagements in sexual acts.
As has been pointed out, this is flat out wrong. Many, many species have same gender couples.

On the other hand, getting around by driving in big metal boxes? Nature knows of no other species that does that. How about sitting in front of little glowing electric boxes to communicate with distant creatures? Utterly unknown outside humanity and has only showed up in under a century or so in the 300,000 odd years of human history! That's incredibly unnatural! About the only thing more unnatural is space travel, which only a few specimens of this species have ever engaged in.
So...is there something wrong with being in front of computers because its unnatural?

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Would you acknowledge that numerous studies show that gay men have a far higher rate of STDs than straight men? This is because homosexual intercourse is inherently riskier than normal intercourse.
EMTs and nurses have a higher than normal rate of STD infection than the general populace. Many Southern states have higher than average rates. And no, homosexual female-female intercourse is much less risky than female-male intercourse on any metric.
What has any of this got to do with anything though?

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In most cases, when such facts are raised, liberals deflect by alleging "homophobia." I don't think I've ever met a conservative who would even come close to suffering from "homophobia." Liberals should look up some of the words they use before they use them.

"Homophobia" literally means having an extreme or irrational fear of homosexuals. Personally, I've worked with many homosexuals over the years and got along just fine with them, just as I've worked with some swingers and serial adulterers and got along fine with them.
You've had the fortune not to meet the conservatives who've beaten up and murdered people for being gay, who've fought to pass laws to make sure they can't enjoy civil protections, who've enforced laws to make being gay illegal, and all the other fun stuff like that.

Deciding that you aren't willing to take someone's business or hire them because you are bothered by which gender they are attracted to may not be particularly extreme, but its certainly irrational.

Deciding that NO ONE ELSE should be allowed to hire someone because you are bothered by which gender they are attracted to is pretty extreme and irrational.

Deciding to beat someone to death because you are bothered by which gender they are attracted to is about as extreme and irrational as humans get.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:35 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
As has been pointed out, this is flat out wrong. Many, many species have same gender couples.

On the other hand, getting around by driving in big metal boxes? Nature knows of no other species that does that. How about sitting in front of little glowing electric boxes to communicate with distant creatures? Utterly unknown outside humanity and has only showed up in under a century or so in the 300,000 odd years of human history! That's incredibly unnatural! About the only thing more unnatural is space travel, which only a few specimens of this species have ever engaged in.
So...is there something wrong with being in front of computers because its unnatural?


EMTs and nurses have a higher than normal rate of STD infection than the general populace. Many Southern states have higher than average rates. And no, homosexual female-female intercourse is much less risky than female-male intercourse on any metric.
What has any of this got to do with anything though?


You've had the fortune not to meet the conservatives who've beaten up and murdered people for being gay, who've fought to pass laws to make sure they can't enjoy civil protections, who've enforced laws to make being gay illegal, and all the other fun stuff like that.

Deciding that you aren't willing to take someone's business or hire them because you are bothered by which gender they are attracted to may not be particularly extreme, but its certainly irrational.

Deciding that NO ONE ELSE should be allowed to hire someone because you are bothered by which gender they are attracted to is pretty extreme and irrational.

Deciding to beat someone to death because you are bothered by which gender they are attracted to is about as extreme and irrational as humans get.
One might also note, while at it, that although the word "phobia" alone generally denotes fear, as a suffix it is often and commonly and correctly used to denote not only fear, but hatred or aversion. It is quite correct to describe an aversion or hatred of homosexuals as "homophobia" without the silly excuse of saying one does not fear them.
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Old 9th August 2022, 10:01 PM   #70
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The classical Greek language was more concise than modern English: the word "phobos" didn't mean only "fear", it meant irrational fear. The classically-educated persons who started coining terms with the advent of psychology knew that; the -phobia termination was adopted keeping the irrationality very much in mind. Arachnophobia isn't the fear of poisonous spiders that are capable of killing you, it's the fear of all spiders even when they're itty bitty and couldn't possibly hurt you.

Therefore I think the term "homophobia" is perfectly fitting because it is irrational: why would someone else's sexual preference matter to anybody who isn't having sex with them, or about to have sex with them, or wanting to have sex with them? There's no need to fear the gays: they're interested in each other, not you. And you can climb a tree to escape them...oh wait, that's bears. Which is a kind of gay, so it circles back in a quite magnificent logical way.
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Old 9th August 2022, 11:09 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The classical Greek language was more concise than modern English: the word "phobos" didn't mean only "fear", it meant irrational fear.
Actually, no. The Greeks were even more precise than that. Both "phobos" and "deimos" meant fear - different kinds of fear. Phobos was the panic felt during battle, and deimos was the dread felt before a battle. Today we usually take the definitions out of context and just translate them as panic and dread (or sometimes terror).

It's the definition of the English word phobia that adds the element of irrationality.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:59 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Would you agree that homosexuality is unnatural conduct for humans?
No.

Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Nature knows of no species where creatures of the same gender form relationships of any duration that include multiple engagements in sexual acts.
Demonstrably untrue.

Kindly take your childishly silly bigotry elsewhere.
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Last edited by catsmate; 10th August 2022 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 10th August 2022, 03:58 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Would you agree that homosexuality is unnatural conduct for humans? Nature knows of no species where creatures of the same gender form relationships of any duration that include multiple engagements in sexual acts. ...snipped for brevity....
Even if it were not untrue (since homosexuality is present in various other species), until or unless you exclude us humans, if human beings engage in behavior which is not culturally taught or imposed, it's natural no matter what other species do or don't do it.

Besides, what's bad about unnatural? Marriage, democracy, literature and song are unnatural too.
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Old 10th August 2022, 07:41 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Besides, what's bad about unnatural? Marriage, democracy, literature and song are unnatural too.
You know what's really unnatural? Buildings. Big boxes that humans put on top of nature to keep nature out so that we can eat and sleep and work comfortably.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:04 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
One might also note, while at it, that although the word "phobia" alone generally denotes fear, as a suffix it is often and commonly and correctly used to denote not only fear, but hatred or aversion. It is quite correct to describe an aversion or hatred of homosexuals as "homophobia" without the silly excuse of saying one does not fear them.
I think homophobia may very often be a fear of being homosexual.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:07 PM   #76
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And homosexuality has been accepted, even celebrated, in other cultures and societies through history. Vide: These 15 Historical Examples Of LGBTQ Culture Around The World You Might Not Have Known About
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:12 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You know what's really unnatural? Buildings. Big boxes that humans put on top of nature to keep nature out so that we can eat and sleep and work comfortably.
And shoes. And restaurants. And don't get me started about toilets. Does a bear **** in the woods? I don't know! Are we talking ursidae or hairy men in leather chaps?
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Old 10th August 2022, 09:55 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Would you agree that homosexuality is unnatural conduct for humans?
Demonstrably not. Homosexuality has been recognized and accepted by every culture throughout human history.
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Old 11th August 2022, 10:36 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
...if human beings engage in behavior which is not culturally taught or imposed, it's natural no matter what other species do or don't do it.

Besides, what's bad about unnatural? Marriage, democracy, literature and song are unnatural too.
I don't even agree with this delineation of natural. Why is culture not part of natural human behavior? It seems people want to draw a bright line between some imagined category of animalistic behavior and some other imagined category of sophistication and say that one is part of human nature and the other isn't, even though humans do all of it. I deem Pride and Prejudice to be just as much a part of human nature as taking a crap.

"Homosexuality in humans is not natural," has to be the most asinine, circularly-reasoned conclusion I've ever heard.
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Old 12th August 2022, 08:38 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Nature knows of no species where creatures of the same gender form relationships of any duration that include multiple engagements in sexual acts.
Please see Biological Exuberance, Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, by Bruce Bagemihl, St. Martin's Press, New York, 1999, for a start.
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