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Old 15th August 2019, 04:30 PM   #241
Ricardo
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes.

I am a nurse in a home for the elderly. My employer is a Christian (protestant) organization. A number of our tenants, of colleagues, and of course the official stance of the organization believe that this dead man is "going somewhere". I am highly skeptical of that.

You see, we deal with the workings, and the failures, of brains all the time. A number of our residents suffer from Alzheimer's dementia: An organic desease that affects the brain by depositing certain proteins on or between brain cells, which inhibts their functions. This in turn has effects on the personalities of the afflicted, to the point where the personality practically vanishes - where the person not only forgets their closest of kin, they even forget how to eat, how to make faces.

Many residents have all sorts of neurological problems, for which quite a few take prescribed drugs. We observe how taking or not taking those drugs influences the way these people behave, and even how they are.

All this is at least indirect evidence that most everything we experience as personality is the result of the physical (chemical, electric...) workings of the brain.

There is no room really for any part of "us" that could exist independent from the existence and constant fuelling of our brain and body.

By the way: I have dealt with people who do not have their own leg anymore, who do not have their own kidneys anymore, and my father even spent the last half year of his life without his own heart - and yet all these people retained their personality, their habits, their quirks, their humour, their memories, etc. So that's how I know these traits have little to nothing to do with legs, kidneys or the heart. Not so for the brain... (Although I have been surprised how resilient a brain can be)
Have you ever been a nurse witness to some near death experience?
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:35 PM   #242
Oystein
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Have you ever been a nurse witness to some near death experience?
Sure, I have had a person die whose hand I was holding. Your point?
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:39 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Sure, I have had a person die whose hand I was holding. Your point?
not ! I'm talking about it ...https://iands.org/
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:50 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Have you ever been a nurse witness to some near death experience?

If I may but in here.

The near death experience thing has been discussed at some length in other threads before where I have made comment. I have some first hand experience of this phenomena as I have been near death three times.

- Almost bleed to death once - passed out as the blood level dropped.
- Drowned another time - hadn't been breathing for some minutes when I was brought back to life.
- Caught scrub typhus - was kept unconscious in intensive care for 30 days while I fought to stay alive.

At no time during these near death experiences did I have a "near death experience". No ascending to a welcoming place with harp music playing. No descending to a not so welcome place, with the sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth in the background...... Nothing.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:54 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
not ! I'm talking about it ...https://iands.org/
Ok, bring some specific case.
Problem is you wont be able to prove anything about it. Not even if the person ever existed.
And the greatest risk in these cases is not that the person having the experience is simply confused .. it's that the whole case is faked. Complete lie. People who run these sites have reason to tell these stories. They sell books. They live on these stories.
You alone should want solid proof. Something you can confirm or debunk. Not just 'this and this happened'.
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:02 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
When a wrist watch runs out of battery power, it doesn't leave the earth, nor does the time it used to indicate leave the world. It just doesn't function any longer. It ceased to compute the current time - and this dead man's brain ceased to compute this man's personality.
“No such place as silicon heaven? Then where do all the calculators go?”
“They just die.”
“Calculators... just.. die?”

Seriously though, a touching vignette, Oystein.
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:14 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I got tired ... I want to change my beliefs just that! Quantum physics was just a hypothesis ok ... I don't want to talk about my old beliefs anymore .. recommend me a book on skepticism!
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan.
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:23 PM   #248
Oystein
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
not ! I'm talking about it ...https://iands.org/
Are you skeptical of these people?
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:38 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Have you ever been a nurse witness to some near death experience?

I have not been a witness, but a participant in near death, after a good and a bad event. The bad event was a heart attack. The good part of it was that I was already in hospital when my heart stopped and was attended to within seconds, rushed into intensive care, and my children contacted to hurry in to visit me as I might not last another day.


I was told about all of this later because all I remember is being in slight pain, then waking up nearly 24 hours later with a breathing tube stuck down my throat. Absolutely nothing in between - no NDE at all. In fact much, no, exactly like, a really long dreamless sleep.


That was nearly eleven years ago now.



Norm
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:17 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
I have not been a witness, but a participant in near death, after a good and a bad event. The bad event was a heart attack. The good part of it was that I was already in hospital when my heart stopped and was attended to within seconds, rushed into intensive care, and my children contacted to hurry in to visit me as I might not last another day.

I was told about all of this later because all I remember is being in slight pain, then waking up nearly 24 hours later with a breathing tube stuck down my throat. Absolutely nothing in between - no NDE at all. In fact much, no, exactly like, a really long dreamless sleep.

That was nearly eleven years ago now.

Norm
I didn't have NDE, but I did have few OBEs. In form of lucid dreaming. I was trying to achieve it for years, and few times I succeeded. And twice I managed to remembered I can travel with my mind anywhere I would want. First time I did detailed scan of what's on my wardrobe, second time I even flied outside, and checked the cars on the street. In both cases the information was completely wrong. There were boxes on the wardrobe, I haven't seen in my dream. And on the street, not only the cars were different, but the whole outside of our house was different. It didn't strike me during the event though, only after.
Both experiences had actually very dreamy feeling. It was more like I dreamed about having OBE. In my other lucid dreams the feeling was quite different, there was this conflict of my will and the world around me. Not in the OBE, I wasn't forcing the 'dream', I was exploring it, thus following it.
So in the end, nothing special, but certainly interesting. I also had brief experience with some ehm, hallucinogens. Haven't met Jesus, but I certainly learned not to trust what I see.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:01 PM   #251
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Ricardo,

I don't know whether you have good reading comprehension in English, or whether you can get this book, but you should read it. It is about how the brain works and it is written for normal people, not scientists.

Sam Kean, The tale of the Duelling Neurosurgeons, 2014
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:27 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Thanks for proving me right.

Quote:
Only the evidence of the scientific community has value?
Given that you've been told repeatedly that this is not the case, the fact that you're asking again shows that you have, in fact, not changed your mind at all. You're just trolling at this point; and may have been doing it from the beginning.

But don't worry, we've dealt with trolls before. None of us are going to lose sleep over it.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:30 AM   #253
Ricardo
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Thanks for proving me right.



Given that you've been told repeatedly that this is not the case, the fact that you're asking again shows that you have, in fact, not changed your mind at all. You're just trolling at this point; and may have been doing it from the beginning.

But don't worry, we've dealt with trolls before. None of us are going to lose sleep over it.
are you skeptical? Are you atheist ? or are you agnostic?
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:35 AM   #254
Ricardo
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Ricardo,

I don't know whether you have good reading comprehension in English, or whether you can get this book, but you should read it. It is about how the brain works and it is written for normal people, not scientists.

Sam Kean, The tale of the Duelling Neurosurgeons, 2014
I found this book translated into Portuguese ... thanks!
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:45 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
are you skeptical? Are you atheist ? or are you agnostic?
Do you ever answer other people's points? Or do you always throw questions back at them? Answer me first, truthfully, and I'll answer you.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:13 AM   #256
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He's the like of Emre. Playing here.
I'm yet to see a serious theist debater come to this forum.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:41 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
He's the like of Emre. Playing here.
I'm yet to see a serious theist debater come to this forum.
It's hard when the evidence is against your beliefs.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:57 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's hard when the evidence is against your beliefs.
don't forget ... science can't explain everything !!
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:01 AM   #259
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No, but aliens can explain everything science and religion fail at.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:02 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's hard when the evidence is against your beliefs.
Mod WarningDo not plagiarise content, please indicate that you are quoting material from elsewhere. Please see your Membership Agreement especially rule 4.
Posted By:Darat

Last edited by Darat; 16th August 2019 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:03 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I just spent several hours reviewing every single one of those arguments. They're all horrible, and I have decided that they can be utterly dismissed.

Trust me.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:15 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
don't forget ... science can't explain everything !!
What significance do you think that has? You've said that over and over, but no one cares because it's never something that's been claimed here.

You're right. Science can't explain stuff that doesn't exist, and can't make moral judgments. But it can explain those delusions and judgments.

So what?
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:38 AM   #263
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:13 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
The empirical evidence or evidence that you require would be from the scientific community.
Empirical evidence of the afterlife is required for people here on this forum to believe in its existence.

Empirical evidence is a thing scientists deal in.

Therefore the empirical evidence, if it exists, belongs to scientists, and we should be asking scientists for the evidence that shows Ricardo to be right.

Do I really need to tell you Ricardo what's wrong with your logic?
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:18 AM   #265
Ricardo
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Empirical evidence of the afterlife is required for people here on this forum to believe in its existence.

Empirical evidence is a thing scientists deal in.

Therefore the empirical evidence, if it exists, belongs to scientists, and we should be asking scientists for the evidence that shows Ricardo to be right.

Do I really need to tell you Ricardo what's wrong with your logic?
I want to know if you know spiritism or spiritist doctrine?
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:19 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
don't forget ... science can't explain everything !!
The fact that some things haven't been explained by science does not lend any credence to any sort of woo.
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:21 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
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Posted By:Darat
Belz ... one question ... do you know spiritualism?
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:22 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I want to know if you know spiritism or spiritist doctrine?
It seems to me that you don't want to discuss anything. You keep quoting people's posts, people who took the time to respond to you, and you respond with a bunch of questions that have nothing to do with what they said.

What on earth does "spiritism or spiritist doctrine" have to do with anything I said? Just answer the actual posts you're responding to.
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:23 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Belz ... one question ... do you know spiritualism?
Earlier in this thread you said you no longer believe in spirits.

Is that still true?
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:39 AM   #270
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I had two NDEs last year in the days following major heart surgery. I was in ICU late at night. All I remember is looking up and seeing... The Brady Bunch. With a bright light right where Ann B. Davis as Alice was supposed to be.

Of course it was a group of doctors surrounding my bed frantically doing those things doctors do to keep me alive. But I felt a bit of amusement thinking I might go out with a laugh.
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:53 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Belz ... one question ... do you know spiritualism?
ONE question? Each of your posts asks a different question, often on a completely different topic.

Do you have an actual claim or point to make, or are you just throwing things around hoping that something sticks?
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