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Old 21st May 2018, 09:11 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Those are the ones in which you are dead...
Whatever. But I can imagine a vast number of possibilities between being horribly messed up (but inexplicably clinging to life by a thread) and being dead. Those would be the ones in which you are alive precisely because you have not been horribly messed up.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:19 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Tinfoil Hater View Post
Religious people take their books too literally, most of them are filled with metaphor. Immortality likely is through ones offspring, not lingering in some ethereal afterlife. Even if religions are correct in their belief of eternal life- who would want that?? George Carlin commented on the boredom that would set in- how would one pass the time? He thought maybe takeing up playing saxophone for 100,000 years. Why would anyone want to live forever? How would they pass the time? Being a slave to some deity is not my idea of a fun time
...and I can't imagine boredom in the face of infinite possibilities and the eternal refinement of understanding.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:21 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Whatever. But I can imagine a vast number of possibilities between being horribly messed up (but inexplicably clinging to life by a thread) and being dead. Those would be the ones in which you are alive precisely because you have not been horribly messed up.
Sure, and then in that branch you keep on living, presumably a healthy life, but at some point something will happen to you. If not tomorrow next year, if not next year, next decade, if not next decade next century.

At some point you will end up either dead or "messed up", but you will only experience the messed up branch.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:28 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sure, and then in that branch you keep on living, presumably a healthy life, but at some point something will happen to you. If not tomorrow next year, if not next year, next decade, if not next decade next century.

At some point you will end up either dead or "messed up", but you will only experience the messed up branch.
You can only get messed up so much, then you die.

If there is no way to avoid getting messed up, or getting fixed when you get messed up, then you're going to die off in every branch in which those are not possibilities.

Anyway, I figure you'd die eventually in every branch, no matter what. I don't see eternal quantum immortality as a possibility, even hypothetically.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:45 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
You can only get messed up so much, then you die.
In some branches you also get a little bit better, though those will be outnumbered by the ones in which you don't.

Of course in some others you'll also get much better, but they will be outnumbered by those in which the improvement is minor. Small fluctuations in entropy are much more common than large ones.

Quote:
If there is no way to avoid getting messed up, or getting fixed when you get messed up, then you're going to die off in every branch in which those are not possibilities.
There's no "no way", but entropy tends to increase.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:52 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
There's no "no way", but entropy tends to increase.
Up to a point. Then you die. A human body can survive only so much entropy. The brain is even more fragile.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:55 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
In some branches you also get a little bit better, though those will be outnumbered by the ones in which you don't.

Of course in some others you'll also get much better, but they will be outnumbered by those in which the improvement is minor. Small fluctuations in entropy are much more common than large ones.
Not in my branches. If I don't like what's going on, I'll off myself. By that point, I would know the Everett interpretation is for real. I'd be a branch pruner.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:58 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Up to a point. Then you die.
Death is a physical process, and there will always be some branch of the wavefunction in which the physical outcome moves toward a system whose functions are intact rather than broken, even if those branches are outnumbered by the ones in which the system stops working.

Quote:
A human body can survive only so much entropy. The brain is even more fragile.
The increase of entropy is a statistical process.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:59 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Not in my branches. If I don't like what's going on, I'll off myself. By that point, I would know the Everett interpretation is for real. I'd be a branch pruner.
Except that there's always some chance that the gun won't go off or you'll miss, that the poison will pass through your body without killing you, etc. etc.
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Old 21st May 2018, 10:03 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Except that there's always some chance that the gun won't go off or you'll miss, that the poison will pass through your body without killing you, etc. etc.
When I think about how I might still be alive after a ridiculously long time, by far the most likely reason seems to me to be scientific and tecnological wizardry keeping me healthy and in one piece, rather than somehow hanging by a thread against increasing entropy. The latter seems to me the least plausible reason for my hypothetical continued existence.
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Old 21st May 2018, 10:10 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
But in far more branches, the gun would go off.
Yep. But you won't experience those ones, you'll be dead.

Quote:
And if not, fire another round.
Sure, but that's just the same situation you were in a second ago.
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Old 21st May 2018, 10:21 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Except that there's always some chance that the gun won't go off or you'll miss, that the poison will pass through your body without killing you, etc. etc.
Cuts two ways unless the number of branches in which I try to off myself is infinite.

Given a finite number of trials, "Some chance" that the gun won't go off doesn't guarantee that there will a branch in which the gun doesn't go off. If there is "some chance" that that I get offed in all branches, then that will eventually happen.
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Old 21st May 2018, 10:30 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Cuts two ways unless the number of branches in which I try to off myself is infinite.

Given a finite number of trials, "Some chance" that the gun won't go off doesn't guarantee that there will a branch in which the gun doesn't go off. If there is "some chance" that that I get offed in all branches, then that will eventually happen.
"Some chance" is defined as "there is a branch of the wavefunction in which", so no, you won't off yourself in all branches.

Alternatively, simply recognise that the number of branches of the wavefunction is "everything that can happen". Of course if you arrange your suicide such that there is no branch in which it fails, you should get out, but I'm really not sure if that's possible.

I had the idea of jumping into a black hole, but even that I'm not so sure about. QM is weird.
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Old 21st May 2018, 10:43 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
"Some chance" is defined as "there is a branch of the wavefunction in which", so no, you won't off yourself in all branches.

Alternatively, simply recognise that the number of branches of the wavefunction is "everything that can happen". Of course if you arrange your suicide such that there is no branch in which it fails, you should get out, but I'm really not sure if that's possible.
Right. I temporarily forgot that the Everett interpretation is deterministic.

However, I still contend that the number of branches in which you exist in this decrepit state are dwarfed by the number of branches in which you far more plausibly survive because you have remained intact. Getting all messed up strongly tends toward dying, and remaining intact strongly tends toward surviving.

Also, I don't see how the aging process is reversible or stoppable by entropic effects alone. And there is no possibility that continuing cellular damage does not kill you.
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Old 18th September 2018, 08:28 PM   #95
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Fear of death

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'm not sure I would enjoy eternal life, but I am sure that I'm terrified of dying. There is literally no age at which I would be happy with the concept.
As I become more of an elderly person and daily increasing infirmities take their toll, the idea of death becomes less an enemy.
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Old 18th September 2018, 08:59 PM   #96
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William Gibson has a story about a man wealthy enough to live forever. But his body is just a literal ton of cancer in a vat.

It's an open question whether he is actually still alive, or if what passes for his life is just the legal working out of his estate.
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Old 18th September 2018, 11:54 PM   #97
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In all stories about Eternal Life (most abundantly Vampire-based), the problem is adaption to changing events: as Douglas Adams famously put it:

Quote:
“I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.”
...which for the never-dying means that they are doomed to live in an alien world.

There are, of course, reasons to doubt this outlook. For one, technology that can makes us amortal can probably return our brain to pre-tween states of plasticity, meaning that we can "naturalize" to new technology no matter how old we are.
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