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Old 27th September 2018, 03:47 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sadly, that wasn't original either.
My post was awesome and original.

Unfortunately, the awesome part wasn't original and the original part wasn't awesome.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th September 2018, 04:50 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Reliably and consistently right" is not an evil concept.
No but you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who fits that definition, especially people with some notoriety.
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Old 27th September 2018, 06:52 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
How about this summary of Peterson:

His ideas are original and good.

However, his good ideas are not original and his original ideas are not good.

Moreover, all of his ideas are delivered in self-important, self-aggrandizing, self-consciously over-referenced, tedious, sententious and tendentious style that is a waste of time to listen to.
Sure, agreed.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Therefore, we don’t need to listen to anything - ANYTHING - he says.
Who is "we", though? Us, the ones posting in this forum? Or everyone in the whole world?
That's my point: If you're claiming that no one in the world could ever find anything useful in anything Jordan Peterson says, I think you are utterly wrong. I understand you personally find that you could totally do away without him and lose nothing, but to claim that this is true for everyone, is just incorrect. I know lots of people who have found some of the things he said very useful, including myself.
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Old 27th September 2018, 06:54 AM   #244
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Sam Harris said it perfectly:
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I AGREE
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Old 27th September 2018, 07:13 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Sam Harris said it perfectly:
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I AGREE
It takes him 14 minutes to say what?
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Old 27th September 2018, 07:17 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It takes him 14 minutes to say what?
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Old 27th September 2018, 07:37 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Sure, agreed.



Who is "we", though? Us, the ones posting in this forum? Or everyone in the whole world?
That's my point: If you're claiming that no one in the world could ever find anything useful in anything Jordan Peterson says, I think you are utterly wrong. I understand you personally find that you could totally do away without him and lose nothing, but to claim that this is true for everyone, is just incorrect. I know lots of people who have found some of the things he said very useful, including myself.
Maybe. I have no idea what he's told you. Maybe how to fix a leaky pipe, or how remove plates from a barbell after deadlifting, or the correct amount of rosemary to use when roasting potatoes, how to get a cork out of a bottle of red wine without a corkscrew. Very useful stuff in some contexts. Not so much in others. But what particular knowledge is Peterson there to impart in his capacity as international man of letters?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th September 2018, 07:52 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Rolleyes? He must speak very, very slowly. Seriously?
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Old 27th September 2018, 07:56 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rolleyes? He must speak very, very slowly. Seriously?
I'd just like to point out that by now you would've had time to watch the video.

Seriously, Sam Harris is always worth a listen.
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Old 27th September 2018, 08:01 AM   #250
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Sam Harris also said (In his spectacular TED Talk on Rational Morality) that in the public sphere certain voices have to be excluded, that's what it means to have an area of expertise.
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Old 27th September 2018, 08:04 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sam Harris also said (In his spectacular TED Talk on Rational Morality) that in the public sphere certain voices have to be excluded, that's what it means to have an area of expertise.
But that's not democratic!!!








And why do I always see "apoplectic" when I read the title of this thread?
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Old 27th September 2018, 10:17 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'd just like to point out that by now you would've had time to watch the video.

Seriously, Sam Harris is always worth a listen.
How do you work that out?
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Old 27th September 2018, 10:31 AM   #253
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How do I work out what?
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Old 27th September 2018, 10:54 AM   #254
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I rarely (in order not to exaggerate with 'never') watch talking heads. This Peterson... I don't get the hype.
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Old 27th September 2018, 11:14 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How do I work out what?
I like Harris. He's my favorite of the "famous for being atheist atheists".

I have not concluded that his opinion on just anything is always worth 14 minutes of my life, though. It's not likely that I'll be enlightened by finding out what he really thinks of Peterson. Neither of them are that interesting.
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Old 27th September 2018, 11:44 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How do I work out what?
Never mind, as ever l suppose it had significance to you.
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Old 27th September 2018, 11:58 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Never mind, as ever l suppose it had significance to you.
It would help if you clarified what you meant. If you meant the first part of my post, it was because the video was shorter than the amount of time between your two posts on the issue. It should've been obvious, but it was a joke, though I suppose I should tell you to grow a sense of humour.

If you meant the second part of my post, well, it's an opinion, so your question doesn't make sense.
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Old 28th September 2018, 07:37 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'd just like to point out that by now you would've had time to watch the video.

Seriously, Sam Harris is always worth a listen.
Yeah, the thing is that Darat personally hates when people post a video and don't give any information as to what the video is saying. Which is understandable. However, if I'm posting that video under the premise that "Sam says it better than me", it would defeat the point if I tried to paraphrase what Sam is saying, wouldn't it?
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Old 28th September 2018, 07:44 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Maybe. I have no idea what he's told you. Maybe how to fix a leaky pipe, or how remove plates from a barbell after deadlifting, or the correct amount of rosemary to use when roasting potatoes, how to get a cork out of a bottle of red wine without a corkscrew. Very useful stuff in some contexts. Not so much in others. But what particular knowledge is Peterson there to impart in his capacity as international man of letters?
Who cares? It doesn't change the point I'm making. So now I have to justify/explain to you which things he has said I personally found useful so that I "prove that I'm right" about something that is by definition not objective, because each individual finds usefulness in different things for individual reasons?
Just understand the point I'm making and learn to move on. It's really not that complicated, nor that important. Look: To you, Peterson is completely useless and if he disappeared tomorrow, you wouldn't miss anything. But don't expect that that is true for everyone, because it's not.
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Old 28th September 2018, 07:53 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Who cares?
You do. Obviously.

I don't even know what we're on about at this point or what we're fighting about or what you want people to start or stop saying or doing.

People have stated that they don't consider Peterson to being say anything of value and you've taken an offhand phrasing of that as "Nobody should listen to someone like Peterson" as something it's not and now you're trying to defend some other people's vague right to listen to Peterson as if it's under attack.

Is it just that somebody dared phrase it as "Nobody should listen to Peterson?" That's what all this is about?

Listen to Peterson if you want. Nobody can stop you. Other people thinking he doesn't have anything of value to say and simply phrasing it that way shouldn't bother you this much.
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Old 28th September 2018, 08:05 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Who cares? It doesn't change the point I'm making. So now I have to justify/explain to you which things he has said I personally found useful so that I "prove that I'm right" about something that is by definition not objective, because each individual finds usefulness in different things for individual reasons?
Just understand the point I'm making and learn to move on. It's really not that complicated, nor that important. Look: To you, Peterson is completely useless and if he disappeared tomorrow, you wouldn't miss anything. But don't expect that that is true for everyone, because it's not.
Hey, you wanted to know what we think...

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
What is your personal take on the Peterson Phenomena?
People have given their opinion and now you are apparently upset about it.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 28th September 2018, 08:43 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't even know what we're on about at this point or what we're fighting about or what you want people to start or stop saying or doing.
Yes, because what typically happens in forums is that someone says something, then someone replies, then someone replies to that, and next thing you know, you lose track of how everything started.

All I've done is reply to the claim that Peterson can be completely done away with because there's nothing useful in what he says, for anyone. I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically the claim.

Yes, I opened this thread to invite a discussion about the Peterson phenomena. So yes, people are giving opinions. And now I'm replying to some of those opinions. That's what a discussion is. I don't see why you're so puzzled. Everything that's happening here is what's supposed to happen when you give an open invitation to have a discussion: People discuss. Disagreements occur, and people talk about them.

The only thing I'm trying to give some sense of closure (because I feel we're going around in circles about a very simple point) is whether or not we can agree that some of the things Peterson has said can prove useful to some people, and that it's not true for everyone (not just you) that you could just do away without him without losing some things of value in the current dialogue that is happening on the internet. Just like we (and people such as Sam Harris) agree that there's no doubt that lots of people can find extreme usefulness in lots of things about Religion, and that we're not trying to dismiss Religion completely. People like Sam Harris are simply trying to raise awareness about some of the problems with Religion. But just like Sam Harris is not trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to things like Religion, and the potential usefulness it can have for lots of people; I am doing the same thing with Peterson. I fact Harris holds the same position about Peterson: He gives him credit as a person who has said lots of things that are worth listening to, but also criticizes him when he says things that are just wrong. There's no need to demonize/antagonize someone just because they've said lots of things that are incorrect. In fact, this tendency to do so, is one of the problems that we are facing, in a polarized Us Vs Them culture, and it does not help to move forward open dialogue.
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Old 28th September 2018, 08:47 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Yes, because what typically happens in forums is that someone says something, then someone replies, then someone replies to that, and next thing you know, you lose track of how everything started.

All I've done is reply to the claim that Peterson can be completely done away with because there's nothing useful in what he says, for anyone. I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically the claim.

Yes, I opened this thread to invite a discussion about the Peterson phenomena. So yes, people are giving opinions. And now I'm replying to some of those opinions. That's what a discussion is. I don't see why you're so puzzled. Everything that's happening here is what's supposed to happen when you give an open invitation to have a discussion: People discuss. Disagreements occur, and people talk about them.

The only thing I'm trying to give some sense of closure (because I feel we're going around in circles about a very simple point) is whether or not we can agree that some of the things Peterson has said can prove useful to some people, and that it's not true for everyone (not just you) that you could just do away without him without losing some things of value in the current dialogue that is happening on the internet. Just like we (and people such as Sam Harris) agree that there's no doubt that lots of people can find extreme usefulness in lots of things about Religion, and that we're not trying to dismiss Religion completely. People like Sam Harris are simply trying to raise awareness about some of the problems with Religion. But just like Sam Harris is not trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to things like Religion, and the potential usefulness it can have for lots of people; I am doing the same thing with Peterson. I fact Harris holds the same position about Peterson: He gives him credit as a person who has said lots of things that are worth listening to, but also criticizes him when he says things that are just wrong.
Sure, but why are you taking exception to the request that you tell us what you find useful with Peterson?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 28th September 2018, 08:50 AM   #264
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Ron, I think you're taking one or two off hand phrasings of something to the effect "Nobody should listen to Peterson" a little too directly and seriously and now you are seeing some conceptual right to listen to Peterson as something that is under attack and you need to defend it.
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Old 28th September 2018, 07:02 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ron, I think you're taking one or two off hand phrasings of something to the effect "Nobody should listen to Peterson" a little too directly and seriously and now you are seeing some conceptual right to listen to Peterson as something that is under attack and you need to defend it.
I don't think so.

I think the issue he has is saying Peterson is wrong about some group of topics, and we all agree that he's made some bad arguments in those areas, and then suggesting that this somehow taints the things he says on other topics.

Everyone is wrong some percentage of the time. But arguments should be looked at on their merits.

I think that maybe you and he are looking at two separate issues. Let's say Peterson appears on a panel discussion about some topic other than religion. Should I just dismiss whatever arguments he might make because I know he makes bad arguments about religion? I think I should judge the arguments he makes as he makes them and without reference to something he's said on some other topic.

On the other hand you are addressing a different issue which might be something like "should I go looking for Peterson's opinions?", and on that topic then looking at his prior work is probably enough to tell you that it's not worth doing so because, as you say, even where he is right, there's plenty of people who have a better batting average than him.

Another issue with him is that I see him as at least sometimes being intentionally obfuscatory, so even on topics where he's right, he makes very strange claims. So if one does listen to him on any topic, one needs to be very careful not to miss the little slights of hand he tries to do. This tends to go more toward your view that he's not really worth listening to on anything.

After writing this post I don't really know where I stand on this...
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Old 29th September 2018, 01:31 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And why do I always see "apoplectic" when I read the title of this thread?
Because his fandom throws fits any time you point out an error? Really, the man is a Thule Society of one--and he's not even good at that.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:44 AM   #267
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I've just finished '12 Rules for Life', and prior to that listened to almost all Peterson's lectures and discussions (those with Sam Harris and those with Russell Brand are particularly good). He's a fantastic motivator, extremely incisive and charismatic, and he is a real force for personal improvement, but his continual reference to, and indeed reverence of, Christian scripture is an enduring mystery, as are some of his peripheral claims such as woman only ever wear make-up to be sexually alluring and that a red meat-only diet cures floaters in the eye.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 12:35 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure, but why are you taking exception to the request that you tell us what you find useful with Peterson?
I already told you: Peterson strikes me as an interesting voice worth debating with (which is why I think Sam Harris continues to engage with him), because unlike a Deepak Chopra who only spews out constant nonsense and doesn't seem to listen, Peterson at least seems to be listening and to be trying to reach a consensus and an understanding, and not everything he says is completely untrue or irrational.
To me it's always fascinating to observe how these conversations go. I don't sustain to the pessimistic notion (not saying that you do) that all these debates go nowhere, and that debates are always pointless. Most of them probably are, but I do think they can sometimes make some progress. Even Bret Weinstein who moderated one of the debates said he was surprised to find that the conversation actually seemed to have progressed, as opposed to getting stuck in a wall.

As an aside, Peterson has said lots of things that are true and useful for our daily lives. Most of the thesis that's present in his 12 Rules for Life can be extremely useful to a lot of people. Even if I don't always agree with the way in which he reached a lot of his conclusions, the conclusion itself is true and useful.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 12:36 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ron, I think you're taking one or two off hand phrasings of something to the effect "Nobody should listen to Peterson" a little too directly and seriously and now you are seeing some conceptual right to listen to Peterson as something that is under attack and you need to defend it.
Well, again, I was addressing a particular poster who seemed to be taking that extremist view, and so I was replying directly to him. Which was my initial frustration with you, because it was literally like you stepped in the middle of a conversation I was having with someone, without even actually following the conversation. So of course, my response/reaction is not toward everyone. Just those who claim that Peterson is completely useless and no one should ever listen to him because nothing that he says is true/useful.
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Old 12th October 2018, 09:09 PM   #270
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Peterson is completely useless and no one should ever listen to him because nothing that he says is true/useful.

Yes, indeed.
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Old 13th October 2018, 12:40 AM   #271
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Oh, and here's a challenge:

Show me one single thing that Peterson has said and/or written that is actually an original idea.

Surprise me.
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Old 13th October 2018, 12:42 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Oh, and here's a challenge:

Show me one single thing that Peterson has said and/or written that is actually an original idea.

Surprise me.
That never eating any Greens is healthy?
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Old 13th October 2018, 12:44 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Oh, and here's a challenge:

Show me one single thing that Peterson has said and/or written that is actually an original idea.

Surprise me.
Why? There are 7 billion people on this planet. Very few of them are original.

Even nobel prize winners often win for ideas that other people were having at the same time.

I don't think being original is really all that meaningful of a criterion. If it were we could probably just shut down these forums as there has probably never been an entirely original idea expressed here.
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Old 13th October 2018, 03:48 AM   #274
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Let's be honest: most people who admire him do so because he says a lot of fancy sounding words that they don't really understand, but they make them feel goood. What is the other guy's name? Deeprak Chopra (sp?). Same here.
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Old 13th October 2018, 04:01 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
not everything he says is completely untrue or irrational.
You could say that about anyone. I'm not sure how it's meant to be a defence of Petersen. In fact, it reinforces the notion that he's not worth listening to or reading.

"Well, he's not entirely full of BS!" is really not a good way to defend someone accused of being full of BS.
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Old 13th October 2018, 11:36 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Oh, and here's a challenge:

Show me one single thing that Peterson has said and/or written that is actually an original idea.

Surprise me.
Well, for starters, I never spoke about "original". I spoke of "useful". I'm sure a lot of what you find useful in other people's arguments isn't precisely original. Your parents or friends may have at some point in life given you some very useful advice, but it's not like they came up with that bit of wisdom. At best, the only originality comes from how each individual says it. But that's about it. So, I never argued about how "original" is the content of what Peterson said. I only argued that a lot of what he says is useful.
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Old 13th October 2018, 11:37 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
You could say that about anyone.
For the umpteenth time: Yes, I'm aware you can say that about anyone. But, if anything, that proves my point, which is: adopting a polarized, extremist position about an individual, claiming that "nothing they say is ever useful and therefore we should never listen to them" is a stupid position. Because you can always find something useful or true about something that someone says, no matter how much you disagree with them on a lot of issues.
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Old 14th October 2018, 08:30 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Oh, and here's a challenge:

Show me one single thing that Peterson has said and/or written that is actually an original idea.

Surprise me.
No idea is truly original. Even the ones people see as such are just building on the ideas that came before. Science is built on that fact and scientists like Carl Sagan and Neil DeGrasse Tyson who make scientific ideas accessible to lay people are especially susceptible to that criticism but most scientists toil away doing the less than glorifying grunt work while only a few get recognition.

One thing Peterson has done that may not be original but is pretty exceptional is that he has managed to hang onto his career and good reputation while decimating proponents of politically correct jargon. His interview with Kathy Newman is an epic display of logic expressed in a cool, calm manner in the face of true ignorance.

He and Stephen Fry vs Michael Dyson and Michelle Goldberg on the Munk Debates over political correctness is another effective illustration about the stupid that is language policing. He came to attention because he dared to oppose Ontario's language laws. The fact that he is one of, if not the, only high profile person to do so is pretty original in my view.
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Old 14th October 2018, 08:37 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Tommok View Post
Let's be honest: most people who admire him do so because he says a lot of fancy sounding words that they don't really understand, but they make them feel goood. What is the other guy's name? Deeprak Chopra (sp?). Same here.
No, most people admire him because he presents himself in a positive way with a positive message.Here is a perfect example:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 14th October 2018, 08:57 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
No idea is truly original. Even the ones people see as such are just building on the ideas that came before. Science is built on that fact and scientists like Carl Sagan and Neil DeGrasse Tyson who make scientific ideas accessible to lay people are especially susceptible to that criticism but most scientists toil away doing the less than glorifying grunt work while only a few get recognition.

One thing Peterson has done that may not be original but is pretty exceptional is that he has managed to hang onto his career and good reputation while decimating proponents of politically correct jargon. His interview with Kathy Newman is an epic display of logic expressed in a cool, calm manner in the face of true ignorance.

He and Stephen Fry vs Michael Dyson and Michelle Goldberg on the Munk Debates over political correctness is another effective illustration about the stupid that is language policing. He came to attention because he dared to oppose Ontario's language laws. The fact that he is one of, if not the, only high profile person to do so is pretty original in my view.
^THIS
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