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Old 20th September 2018, 07:24 AM   #201
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Basically Jordan Peterson is as close to real world Jabba as we've seen, someone who thinks if he can game the debate/argument to the point he can present it as he having won, he's created objective truth.
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Old 20th September 2018, 09:09 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, of course. What I mean is that if we define "truth" to mean "the accepted conclusion" rather than the objective truth, there's an aspect of darwinian evolution to ideas and that's an interesting topic to discuss. But it's when one then pretends that suddenly that idea means that the other definition of "truth" is included in that idea that we have a problem.
Don’t admit the premise.
That’s the whole point!
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Old 20th September 2018, 09:34 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Don’t admit the premise.
That’s the whole point!
...I'm not sure what you mean.
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Old 20th September 2018, 09:37 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...I'm not sure what you mean.
The “if we define ‘truth’ to mean...” premise should be rejected. I won’t define truth to mean anything like the absurd definition Peterson puts forward and neither should you if you have any respect for the meaning of truth.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 20th September 2018, 09:44 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The “if we define ‘truth’ to mean...” premise should be rejected. I won’t define truth to mean anything like the absurd definition Peterson puts forward and neither should you if you have any respect for the meaning of truth.
Yeah, this. Truth is such a fundamental concept that Peterson's definition makes any conversation so muddled as to be almost impossible to have.
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Old 20th September 2018, 09:46 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The “if we define ‘truth’ to mean...” premise should be rejected. I won’t define truth to mean anything like the absurd definition Peterson puts forward and neither should you if you have any respect for the meaning of truth.
Oh, ok. Yeah I agree. I'm not saying we should agree with the premise, just that he's got a point save for the fact that he's redefining truth to suit his purposes.
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Old 20th September 2018, 09:52 AM   #207
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Goal: Define "Truth" as "Something other than what the facts/evidence show."

This is certainly what a lot of the Naval Gazers are doing with the "Facts/Truth" malarky.
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Old 20th September 2018, 10:21 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Goal: Define "Truth" as "Something other than what the facts/evidence show."

This is certainly what a lot of the Naval Gazers are doing with the "Facts/Truth" malarky.
Well, the truth isn't defined as what the facts/evidence show. It's entirely possible for the evidence that we have available to lead us astray in any particular circumstance. The truth is really just the way things actaully are, whether we are aware of it or not.


The reason that the facts/evidence tend to show the truth is because they are caused to be what they are by that underlying reality and thus offer information about it.
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Old 20th September 2018, 07:32 PM   #209
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Did any of you guys see his "I drank apple cider and I was overwhelmed with a feeling of impending doom that kept me awake for 25 days" bit? I think it was on the Rogan podcast recently.

There is just no way to take this clown seriously.
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Old 21st September 2018, 07:47 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Did any of you guys see his "I drank apple cider and I was overwhelmed with a feeling of impending doom that kept me awake for 25 days" bit? I think it was on the Rogan podcast recently.

There is just no way to take this clown seriously.
Damn, I did not see that. I saw the Joe Rogan interview but I don't recall that part. Was that when Joe was only interviewing Jordan by himself, or when he interviewed Jordan and Bret Weinstein?
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Old 21st September 2018, 08:03 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Did any of you guys see his "I drank apple cider and I was overwhelmed with a feeling of impending doom that kept me awake for 25 days" bit? I think it was on the Rogan podcast recently.

There is just no way to take this clown seriously.
Wait, what?
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Old 21st September 2018, 08:13 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Damn, I did not see that. I saw the Joe Rogan interview but I don't recall that part. Was that when Joe was only interviewing Jordan by himself, or when he interviewed Jordan and Bret Weinstein?
It was during his most recent appearance on JRE, if I remember right.

And yeah, it was pretty weird.

I just searched and found someone posted that clip (with a few graphics inserted but the sound hasn't been altered), here it is:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I do think that the "didn't sleep for 25 days" is probably just exaggeration. He might have had insomnia to the point of spending most of the night laying awake in bed and a few hours of really ******** sleep interspersed throughout. I've had times when I said "I didn't sleep at all last night" when I probably had a total of 2 hours in little 10-15 minute stints of shallow sleep throughout the night.

But of course when Joe says something like* "how is that possible?" He doesn't say he was exaggerating.

*My connection is poor and the last bit of that video isn't loading for me right now so I'm going from memory here.
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Old 21st September 2018, 08:17 AM   #213
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yep.
if he hadn't slept for 25 days, he would be dead - or at least look like Christian Bale in The Machinist.
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Old 21st September 2018, 03:14 PM   #214
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If Peterson is so smart then why didn't he take advantage of his free Canadian healthcare?
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Old 21st September 2018, 04:18 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It was during his most recent appearance on JRE, if I remember right.

And yeah, it was pretty weird.

I just searched and found someone posted that clip (with a few graphics inserted but the sound hasn't been altered), here it is:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I do think that the "didn't sleep for 25 days" is probably just exaggeration. He might have had insomnia to the point of spending most of the night laying awake in bed and a few hours of really ******** sleep interspersed throughout. I've had times when I said "I didn't sleep at all last night" when I probably had a total of 2 hours in little 10-15 minute stints of shallow sleep throughout the night.

But of course when Joe says something like* "how is that possible?" He doesn't say he was exaggerating.

*My connection is poor and the last bit of that video isn't loading for me right now so I'm going from memory here.
The thing is, Peterson apparently has an admitted history of depression. So how in the world does an actual professor of psychology not see the link between his own mental illness and insomnia, but instead insists that it "must be the apple cider"?

There really are only two possible reasons: Either he is a con-man cynically trying to sell his daughter's meat-only diet, or depression is not the only mental issue he's struggling with.
Or a combination of both, so three possible reasons, I guess.

Again; the fact that this guy has become some sort of "guru" for self-described "atheist skeptics", and a best selling author, is ******* scary.
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Old 21st September 2018, 05:42 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
The thing is, Peterson apparently has an admitted history of depression. So how in the world does an actual professor of psychology not see the link between his own mental illness and insomnia, but instead insists that it "must be the apple cider"?
The timeline is something like: He changed his diet. His lifelong depression went away. He had some apple cider. The depression came back much worse than it was before.

I don't think that's all that inconsistent.

I still think it's crazy.

Quote:
There really are only two possible reasons: Either he is a con-man cynically trying to sell his daughter's meat-only diet, or depression is not the only mental issue he's struggling with.
I think it's in part the first part, though I don't really care to speculate to what extent. I think he's exaggerating the effects of this diet for exactly that reason.

I think he also does think the diet has helped him with his health (mental and otherwise) problems. To what extent he's right I also don't really care to speculate.

Quote:
Again; the fact that this guy has become some sort of "guru" for self-described "atheist skeptics", and a best selling author, is ******* scary.
Yes, although I don't think his following is particularly strong among skeptics. I just watched his talk with Matt Dillahunty yesterday and if you look at the youtube comments it's basically everyone saying how ridiculous he is. Which is different from most of his other videos where a lot of people defend his crazy ideas.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 08:33 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It was during his most recent appearance on JRE, if I remember right.

And yeah, it was pretty weird.

I just searched and found someone posted that clip (with a few graphics inserted but the sound hasn't been altered), here it is:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I do think that the "didn't sleep for 25 days" is probably just exaggeration. He might have had insomnia to the point of spending most of the night laying awake in bed and a few hours of really ******** sleep interspersed throughout. I've had times when I said "I didn't sleep at all last night" when I probably had a total of 2 hours in little 10-15 minute stints of shallow sleep throughout the night.

But of course when Joe says something like* "how is that possible?" He doesn't say he was exaggerating.

*My connection is poor and the last bit of that video isn't loading for me right now so I'm going from memory here.
Hahaha, ok, well, in a way that doesn't amaze me. If there's one thing that's true about Jordan is how "poetic" he can be with words, to the point of sounding really over the top. Where someone would say "I drank some apple cider and had the worst ******* time in my life", he says "I drank apple cider with a feeling of impending doom". But it's basically the same thing we all do of exaggerating things, just with fancier words.

Now, the whole "I didn't sleep for 25 days" also sounds like an exaggeration. As others mentioned here: He probably didn't sleep for the first days, then slept very little for the next days, spending in fact lots of hours awake. But there's no way he got 0 sleep in 25 days.

It just goes to prove that you have to take everything Jordan says with a grain of salt. You cannot take his words too literally, which is in fact a shame because you would expect clear objective language from a clinical psychologist.... but the fact is, you can't. Jordan reminds me a lot of my dad: They love using big words, especially those with poetic and mystical connotations. They love to hear themselves talk. It's like music to their own ears. How they sound seems more important to them than whether the content of what they say is true and accurate. Ironically, since Jordan has said on several occasions "I try to be very careful with my words so I don't say something stupid", but sadly, this is not the case. He has a long history of saying stupid and/or inaccurate things.

Personally, despite all this, I like him. I think deep down he's a good person. But one can tell from that video excerpt that he definitely has some issues (I mean, who doesn't?) But despite his moments of intellectual dishonesty, I believe he means well deep down.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 09:31 PM   #218
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Just to get the Godwin thing out of the way: I'm sure Hitler meant well deep down too. Seriously.

How anyone can claim to "like" Peterson after six pages of examples clearly showing the man is a ridiculous clown, is beyond me.
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Old 23rd September 2018, 08:35 AM   #219
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This is pure genius.
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Old 23rd September 2018, 08:58 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
good stuff.

I noticed (again) that Peterson sounds quite a lot like a more squeaky version of Bob Odenkirk.
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Old 24th September 2018, 08:08 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Just to get the Godwin thing out of the way: I'm sure Hitler meant well deep down too. Seriously.

How anyone can claim to "like" Peterson after six pages of examples clearly showing the man is a ridiculous clown, is beyond me.
Aaahh, the ol' "Comparison to Hitler" argumentative tactic.

You don't need to "understand" why I like a person, no more than you need to understand why I like a food product that you don't like. You have every right not to like the person, as much as I have a right to like them
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Old 24th September 2018, 09:08 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Aaahh, the ol' "Comparison to Hitler" argumentative tactic.

You don't need to "understand" why I like a person, no more than you need to understand why I like a food product that you don't like. You have every right not to like the person, as much as I have a right to like them
Yeah. I have had incredibly frustrating conversations with good friends who explained their religious beliefs in even more irrational terms than Peterson's religious apologetics discussed in this thread, but still like those friends. In more recent years I generally just listen to what they say about their beliefs without really trying to challenge them. I've also had very interesting conversations with some of those same people in which they revealed insights about the world that I never would have thought of myself.

How is that possible? Because people are multi-faceted and can have both positive and negative attributes.

I think that we all generally recognise this about friends, family, and generally those that we interact with in real life, but when it comes to public figures we construct black and white views of them in which they are either on the right team or the wrong team.
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Old 24th September 2018, 11:00 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah. I have had incredibly frustrating conversations with good friends who explained their religious beliefs in even more irrational terms than Peterson's religious apologetics discussed in this thread, but still like those friends. In more recent years I generally just listen to what they say about their beliefs without really trying to challenge them. I've also had very interesting conversations with some of those same people in which they revealed insights about the world that I never would have thought of myself.

How is that possible? Because people are multi-faceted and can have both positive and negative attributes.

I think that we all generally recognise this about friends, family, and generally those that we interact with in real life, but when it comes to public figures we construct black and white views of them in which they are either on the right team or the wrong team.
Yeah. Very true. It's very important to not antagonize people just because we categorically disagree with them on some issues. "This person believes in something I disagree with, therefore that is a bad person" is a fallacy, and a path that leads to either a very lonely life, or to a tendency to live in echo chambers where we only befriend people who agree with our views. And you're right, family is great at teaching that because we all have that family person or close friend who believes in something we don't, and we don't want to antagonize them, so the solution is to just listen to them without having to argue against their belief.
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Old 25th September 2018, 09:16 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Aaahh, the ol' "Comparison to Hitler" argumentative tactic.

You don't need to "understand" why I like a person, no more than you need to understand why I like a food product that you don't like. You have every right not to like the person, as much as I have a right to like them
Hey, I did give you a Godwin warning though.

Anyway, Peterson is still utter ****, and no one should listen to anything he says.

Also, lobsters. Just Mountains of lobster Logic.
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Old 25th September 2018, 09:26 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah. I have had incredibly frustrating conversations with good friends who explained their religious beliefs in even more irrational terms than Peterson's religious apologetics discussed in this thread, but still like those friends. In more recent years I generally just listen to what they say about their beliefs without really trying to challenge them. I've also had very interesting conversations with some of those same people in which they revealed insights about the world that I never would have thought of myself.

How is that possible? Because people are multi-faceted and can have both positive and negative attributes.

I think that we all generally recognise this about friends, family, and generally those that we interact with in real life, but when it comes to public figures we construct black and white views of them in which they are either on the right team or the wrong team.
I get that, but those are people you actually interact with in real life. They are flesh, blood, and complex personalities. People you've known your entire life, people you've bonded with over time, despite your differences. Real family, and real friends.

Peterson on the other hand, is a 2D face on youtube, some shoddily composed sentences in some overrated stinker of a book. A snake-oil salesman telling basement-dwelling losers what they want to hear, in the hope that they will buy his ****** books, buy tickets for his laughable talks, and shower him with free money on patreon.
Not to mention his obvious fascist tendencies.

Oh, and don't forget to log on to his daughter's website and pay her a boatload of money so she can tell you that eating meat, meat, and nothing but meat, will solve all your problems.

I think it would be a good idea to treat the Petersons and the actual people in your life differently.
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Old 25th September 2018, 11:43 PM   #226
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Well, he's still an actual flesh and blood person, even if his public personality is less nuanced than I'd like. So if someone can see the irrationality in some of the things he says and yet find value in other things he says, I don't have a problem with that.

I think we should all be willing to look at people as not right or wrong in general but just as humans who have various ideas about various things and judge each of those ideas on their own merits, separate from the others.

Mind you after listening to Peterson going on and on about his crazy ideas, like that psychedelics are good evidence that there's a soul and an afterlife, and that it's impossible to quit smoking without having a mystical experience, I also have a hard time taking him seriously on other topics.
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Old 26th September 2018, 07:50 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Anyway, Peterson is still utter ****, and no one should listen to anything he says.
Anything? Do you really stand by that? If so, you'd be throwing out some really compelling arguments for freedom of speech that he has made. This is why I disagree with you, and your "throw the baby out with the bath water" mentality toward people such as Peterson. Yes, he has said a lot of insane, categorically wrong stuff. But he has also said lots of things of value, such as his stance against legislating gender pronouns. To just dismiss the man entirely because he's said a lot of crazy things is stupid.
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Old 26th September 2018, 07:59 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Anyway, Peterson is still utter ****, and no one should listen to anything he says.
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Anything? Do you really stand by that? If so, you'd be throwing out some really compelling arguments for freedom of speech that he has made. This is why I disagree with you, and your "throw the baby out with the bath water" mentality toward people such as Peterson.
An... addendum and a point of view if I may.

Here's the thing. Are Peterson's opinions on free speech so unique as to only be coming from him? I doubt it.

Everything Peterson has said about free speech has been said equally accurately and poignantly by some one else somewhere without the baggage of Peterson's total insanity and intellectual hogwash.

It's the same eyebrow raising I do over people that argue we have to keep the Bible in public discourse because it's "such a good source" or morality, as if there wasn't a place to look for moral concepts like the Golden Rule and "Thou Shalt Not Kill" that doesn't mention unicorns 9 times.

The "Baby and the Bathwater" problem becomes a lot less worthy of hand wringing if we accept that dirty bathwater is not our only source of babies, if I may be forgiven for bruising the metaphor a bit.

"Peterson said some good things" is not the thing as "We need Peterson to tell us these good things and can't get them from somewhere else."

This is something me and you seem to disagree on on a base level a lot. Once someone has reached a certain tipping point of "wrong" (which Peterson has to even the most tolerant of judges) I simply no longer feel the need to keep shifting through their intellectual filth on the off chance of finding a pearl when I have perfectly good sources of pearls available elsewhere.
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Old 26th September 2018, 08:02 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
If so, you'd be throwing out some really compelling arguments for freedom of speech that he has made.
Yeah, about that.

Quote:
But Peterson’s affection for unbounded “linguistic territory” only goes so far, it seems. In June, he threatened to sue Down Girl author and Cornell University assistant professor Kate Manne for defamation, after she criticized his book, 12 Rules For Life, and more generally called his work misogynistic in an interview with Vox. (Peterson previously filed a lawsuit against a university whose faculty members, in a closed-door meeting, argued that showing his videos in a classroom created an unsafe environment for students.)
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Old 26th September 2018, 08:46 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

"Peterson said some good things" is not the thing as "We need Peterson to tell us these good things and can't get them from somewhere else."
Only thing is, I have never made such claim. So watch out for strawmaning me, because you're pretty much doing it.

I never claimed that Peterson is the number one candidate to voice these opinions on free speech, and the only respectable source for this information. All I have said is that it's not true that everything that Peterson says is utter bollocks, and thus, no one should ever listen to anything he says. But of course many other people have probably said the things Peterson says, better. That's a completely separate argument, though.
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Old 26th September 2018, 08:55 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Yeah, about that.
Okay? So what about it? Of course Peterson is wrong. So?
How come now I am suddenly treated as Peterson's lawyer? May I reminded you I'm the one who opened this thread in the first place? The thread criticizing his religious apologetics.

So yes, now you bring this article where apparently he's not "walking the walk" on his position on free speech. Well, sure, of course that's wrong of him.

But again: Have I ever argued that Peterson is the leading martyr on free speech? All I've said is that it is not accurate to say that everything he says is utter bollocks. Some of the things he says are true, even if later we find out that he doesn't act according to his own principles. That's his problem if he lacks the honesty to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. That's not what I'm arguing. Go fight that fight against some Peterson fan. I am not one. But I'm also not a fan of black and white thinking: Where a person is either completely wrong about everything always, or completely right about everything always. There's a lot of things Peterson has said that can be very useful, while also, he says a lot of things that are wrong. Can we all just agree on that and move on?


By the way, thanks for sharing that article, because that is in fact interesting and I'm looking forward to see what he says when he's confronted with it.
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Old 26th September 2018, 08:56 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Only thing is, I have never made such claim. So watch out for strawmaning me, because you're pretty much doing it.
Well since the "Show me where I said that" clause has been invoked this conversation is probably dead.

I forget context and subtext don't exist in this dojo and everything that's not verbatim spelled out is a "strawman" which now might as well be officially changed to "Any argument that makes my argument look bad."

Quote:
I never claimed that Peterson is the number one candidate to voice these opinions on free speech.
And I never claimed you did. STRAWMAN! YOU MADE A STRAWMAN! You responded to something that was 100% verbatim what I said!

See how that annoying that is now? See how to feels to argue against that when all you did was argue against what you reasonably thought was the subtext of a person's post which used to be a thing you could do in discussion without having STRAWMAN! thrown back at you?

Quote:
All I have said is that it's not true that everything that Peterson says is utter bollocks, and thus, no one should ever listen to anything he says. But of course many other people have probably said it better. That's a completely separate argument, though.
Nobody is arguing that everything Peterson says is utter bollocks.

We're saying that everything that Peterson is saying that you can't get from someone else is utter bollocks so there's no point in listening to Peterson because he's either going to be wrong or redundant.

He's wrong to the point that he's useless.
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Old 26th September 2018, 09:00 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I never claimed you did. STRAWMAN! YOU MADE A STRAWMAN! You responded to something that was 100% verbatim what I said!
Don't be ridiculous. You were replying to me when you said all that, so how am I not to expect that you're talking to me, and thus referring to my arguments?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Nobody is arguing that everything Peterson says is utter bollocks.
Actually, you're wrong. Someone is:

Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Hey, I did give you a Godwin warning though.

Anyway, Peterson is still utter ****, and no one should listen to anything he says.

Also, lobsters. Just Mountains of lobster Logic.

So maybe, try following the conversation before jumping into it, Joe?
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Old 26th September 2018, 09:04 AM   #234
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Okay fine, whatever. I don't want to have yet another meta-debate about the debate on this board.

Back to ground what's the point? If the only thing someone is right about is things multiple other people are also right about (and let's be fair here the thing's he "right" about are either generic truisms or not exactly fringe) and the things he's wrong about he's... really, really wrong about what's the point? What's the percentage is including him in the discussion?

A list of excuses why we shouldn't not listen to Peterson isn't a list of reasons we should.

So what's the positive? What's the net gain in listening to him?
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Old 26th September 2018, 09:17 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here's the thing. Are Peterson's opinions on free speech so unique as to only be coming from him? I doubt it.
That's true of just about everyone, though. It's also true of just about everyone that they say crazy, wrong or objectionable things, especially considering an audience of 7.5 billion people.
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Old 26th September 2018, 09:21 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's true of just about everyone, though. It's also true of just about everyone that they say crazy, wrong or objectionable things, especially considering an audience of 7.5 billion people.
That's my point though. I could get an occasional insightful nugget out of the biggest dullard in history if I listen to them long enough. Broken Clock, Infinite Type Writer Monkeys, pick your metaphor they all work.

I just like to think everyone gets that the moral we are supposed to take away from "A broken clock is right twice a day" isn't that we should keep the broken clock up on the wall next to the one that works because, hey the broken clock is still right twice a day and we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

"Reliably and consistently right" is not an evil concept.

When I find myself trapped on a desert island with no one but Peterson to talk too I'll worry about how much signal I can pull from his noise but until then I don't really see the point.
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Old 26th September 2018, 01:46 PM   #237
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The way I feel about skeptics who are Peterson fans is just like "Well, and some people like Nickleback and the Spice Girls. It's a crazy old world."

This was fun to watch unfold on twitter, tho:
https://twitter.com/TheKavOfficial/s...24922269814785

People are so strange. lol
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Old 27th September 2018, 02:29 AM   #238
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How about this summary of Peterson:

His ideas are original and good.

However, his good ideas are not original and his original ideas are not good.

Moreover, all of his ideas are delivered in self-important, self-aggrandizing, self-consciously over-referenced, tedious, sententious and tendentious style that is a waste of time to listen to.

Therefore, we don’t need to listen to anything - ANYTHING - he says.
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Old 27th September 2018, 02:38 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
How about this summary of Peterson:

His ideas are original and good.

However, his good ideas are not original and his original ideas are not good.


Moreover, all of his ideas are delivered in self-important, self-aggrandizing, self-consciously over-referenced, tedious, sententious and tendentious style that is a waste of time to listen to.

Therefore, we don’t need to listen to anything - ANYTHING - he says.

awesome summary.
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Old 27th September 2018, 03:27 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
awesome summary.
Sadly, that wasn't original either.
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