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Old 10th August 2020, 02:09 PM   #2201
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
OK, I've thought.
And I agree with your thinking. I brought it up earlier this same way, citing Thiokol's hastily-prepared presentation that committed exactly the same error that PartSkeptic is poised to commit, and which you've also now identified. There can be no more discarded trials in the new statistical model.

Quote:
I suspect PartSkeptic will object to the fact that him getting symptoms when the wifi is on will now sometimes count as a miss, but he chose to change the hypothesis, so ...
Indeed. Am I correct in assuming that we're talking about discretely controlled power levels? that is, a modem that -- when switched on -- transmits at either of two discrete power levels? I'm still leery about throwing away information by encoding these as categorical variables if the measurable variance in the amounts isn't inherently categorical.
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Old 10th August 2020, 02:26 PM   #2202
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
OK, I've thought.

When the hypothesis was simply that the wifi being on produced physical symptoms, the possible outcomes of the trials were simple:

SymptomsWifi OFFWifi ON
YESMISSHIT
NOHITMISS

When PS changed the hypothesis to require a minimum level of output that became:

SymptomsWifi OFFWifi ON, lowWifi ON, high
YESMISSDISCARDHIT
NOHITDISCARDMISS

I think what turingtest is saying is that, rather than discard the results when the wifi is low, we can use those data points too. If the wifi was on but below the level PS now considers too low to provoke his symptoms and he gets no symptoms that's actually a hit; if it's on and low and he does get symptoms that's a miss. So:

SymptomsWifi OFFWifi ON, lowWifi ON, high
YESMISSMISSHIT
NOHITHITMISS

I suspect PartSkeptic will object to the fact that him getting symptoms when the wifi is on will now sometimes count as a miss, but he chose to change the hypothesis, so ...

How will this affect the way the stats work out? It will inevitably result in a lot more tests with the signal insufficient to produce symptoms than with sufficient signal.
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Old 10th August 2020, 02:37 PM   #2203
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Incidentally, in earlier posts PartSkeptic implied that the signal would be strong enough if his wife watched a video on her phone:
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have been in bed for most of the day. Not well. But I have figured out a possible test under the conditions.

I will lie in bed. My wife will put the modem in the lounge on top of the sofa which is on the other side of the wall. She will flip a coin to decide the first trial of 15 minutes. Heads is on. Then wait 15 minutes with the unit off. The third 15 minutes will be the second test run and the state will be the opposite of the first state. I will wait a fourth 15 minute period in be. I will decide whether the test was on-off or off-on.

I can do this in the morning before I take the pain tablets. And I can try again in the evening at about 7 pm.

When the modem is on, my wife will put on a video on her cell phone in the study, communicating with the modem. We will test the emf in the lounge and in the bedroom where my head will be.

I figure that although I might be in pain, the pain will get much worse when the modem is on. The 15 minutes between is because the effect is often delayed.
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Question. How many of you knew why my wife had to be watching a video in her phone? Simple and common sense answer - and yet my ability to design a test is being questioned.

I wonder how many "scientific studies" know how to generate a signal that properly represents either a cell tower environment, or a cell phone environment, or a WiFi environment?

Do any of you have any other "technical" requirements that need to be considered? Mobile telephony or biological?

Could he not go back to that, and save all this stuff with the meters?
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Old 10th August 2020, 02:46 PM   #2204
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Am I correct in assuming that we're talking about discretely controlled power levels? that is, a modem that -- when switched on -- transmits at either of two discrete power levels?
I don't think so. My impression is that PartSkeptic doesn't know how to get the modem to consistently produce the power level he has now decided is necessary. That decision was based on a single piece of anecdotal data obtained when playing with his meter.

Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
How will this affect the way the stats work out? It will inevitably result in a lot more tests with the signal insufficient to produce symptoms than with sufficient signal.
I have no idea how often the modem produces the supposedly sufficient level.
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Old 10th August 2020, 03:04 PM   #2205
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I have no idea how often the modem produces the supposedly sufficient level.

From what he has posted, PartSkeptic seems to have been having trouble getting it to do it at all.
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Old 10th August 2020, 03:13 PM   #2206
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
My impression is that PartSkeptic doesn't know how to get the modem to consistently produce the power level he has now decided is necessary.
Sure, I'll take that as read. My question was really about whether we can consider power level a categorical variable or whether it's a continuous variable. Seems like we don't have enough information to know.

Quote:
That decision was based on a single piece of anecdotal data obtained when playing with his meter.
So, while playing with his toy "lab" equipment he saw it indicate a surge and attributed it to the modem. And he has now assumed that's the power level required from the modem to give him symptoms.

Without more information, I can see how he might now be confused. Having attributed a high reading to the notion that the modem broadcasts at different discrete power levels, he might now be puzzled about how to get the modem to behave as it did the one time. It may be that the modem was not responsible for the surge he observed, and that the high power level he says is required to give him headaches is simply never going to come from the modem. I see Mojo already ninjaed this point.

Quote:
I have no idea how often the modem produces the supposedly sufficient level.
Without an understanding of the values the indicated power level can take on, it's really not possible to put the data into a proper statistical context. Unfortunately PartSkeptic is the only one who can collect variance data. Unless someone who knows the equipment well enough can confirm it is programmed to emit at known, discrete power levels.

But then again, if PartSkeptic remains consistent with prior argumentation, he'll hypothesis that the telcos are deliberately reprogramming it remotely to affect just him in ways that only he's susceptible to.
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Old 10th August 2020, 03:39 PM   #2207
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic previously
You must realize that a court is not compelled to give reasons.
Matthew cites the South African commonlaw cases that state the exact opposite.
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic
I can upload her written reasons to Google Drive and you can tell me if she said anything different.
So you now admit you lied and, in reality, you were supplied reasons for the courts decision.

You also lied about appealing the decision to the South African Appeals Court. You can't appeal on the facts, but only on a point of law. You really only made it to an informal administrations appeal tribunal which dismissed your incoherent claim as worthless.

Try to get your fairy tales to match next time.
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Old 10th August 2020, 04:21 PM   #2208
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
OK, I've thought.

When the hypothesis was simply that the wifi being on produced physical symptoms, the possible outcomes of the trials were simple:

SymptomsWifi OFFWifi ON
YESMISSHIT
NOHITMISS

When PS changed the hypothesis to require a minimum level of output that became:

SymptomsWifi OFFWifi ON, lowWifi ON, high
YESMISSDISCARDHIT
NOHITDISCARDMISS

I think what turingtest is saying is that, rather than discard the results when the wifi is low, we can use those data points too. If the wifi was on but below the level PS now considers too low to provoke his symptoms and he gets no symptoms that's actually a hit; if it's on and low and he does get symptoms that's a miss. So:

SymptomsWifi OFFWifi ON, lowWifi ON, high
YESMISSMISSHIT
NOHITHITMISS

I suspect PartSkeptic will object to the fact that him getting symptoms when the wifi is on will now sometimes count as a miss, but he chose to change the hypothesis, so ...
This, yes- as outlined in your final table. I don't know why he'd object- after all, he's getting the profit of the hits as well as the loss of the misses; and if his hypothesis is valid, the hits will, as you've said repeatedly, be more frequent than would be expected by chance, i.e., it won't be a wash.

And to reiterate, this is based my recollection of something he's said here about discarding results- I may be in error, and he never said any such thing. The thing is, I can't see any other reason for monitoring the modem's power level except as some reference point to somehow weight the results of the test(s) after they're in. Certainly, in any case, it's something PS could easily clear up with a step-wise statement of his protocol.
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Old 10th August 2020, 06:41 PM   #2209
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed. Am I correct in assuming that we're talking about discretely controlled power levels? that is, a modem that -- when switched on -- transmits at either of two discrete power levels? I'm still leery about throwing away information by encoding these as categorical variables if the measurable variance in the amounts isn't inherently categorical.
From my reading of the spec back whenever, the device appears to have discrete transmission powers (5 from memory, but I would have to go back and reread the spec and at this point I lack the will to waste that time). It certainly does not have bugger all and full blast as the only settings so this is yet another resort to ambiguity as camouflage to me.

Sure, I could delve back into the spec, but what is the point at this stage? The claim is, or was, that it merely must be active and that is all. Or it was. Now the claim is different. Do I want to waste my time chasing rocket propelled goalposts?

I suspect you or anyone else can detect my answer to that question.

So I will happily concede that the device might have a continuously variable transmission power (although I doubt it), but I don't care anymore. We started with a binary. Is it on or off. Now we are at what power level and it could be the tower anyway so the device is irrelevant. We are only a short step from dowsing. The whole thing has become so bizarre.

Now, I will agree with you. Our protagonist could, if so motivated, actually regain at least some credibility. But the procession of Abe Simpsons style bizarre recollections kill it for me. I was only short of asking if really tied an onion to his belt as was the style at the time.

And then there is the odd insults. I know I am a professional engineer. I also know that you are a better engineer than I. I consider that Evilbiker well might be, but I don't know as much about his history. I bothers me not a whit. We all have our limits. But I know for certain that we all know what we are talking about and we can spot the BS when it turns up.
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Old 10th August 2020, 06:46 PM   #2210
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I am a little surprised (officially that is) that a person of great intelligence and long expertise, facing what might be a seminal discovery, seems unable to determine what variables are involved in making the modem go to a high level.

The test would be considerably streamlined if the operation of the modem were well understood, I think.
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Old 10th August 2020, 07:01 PM   #2211
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I am a little surprised (officially that is) that a person of great intelligence and long expertise, facing what might be a seminal discovery, seems unable to determine what variables are involved in making the modem go to a high level.

The test would be considerably streamlined if the operation of the modem were well understood, I think.
The hell with it. Put a tinfoil hat on the modem. It makes as much sense at this point.
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Old 10th August 2020, 10:20 PM   #2212
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I am happy to see Pixel42 getting excited again, and I agree fully that no data points be discarded. However, I see an issue here:

What is to stop PS bringing up other RF sources in the case that he gets a headache when the modem is off? He has said that he is affected by all RF sources, although he does state that the modem is the prime mover. That said, there are without a doubt cell towers in the vicinity that may have an influence besides the modem.

I would record the average meter reading for all test cases as well.
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Old 10th August 2020, 10:40 PM   #2213
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
I would record the average meter reading for all test cases as well.
Wi-Fi systems emit high-frequency electromagnetic radiation (at either 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz....A Wi-Fi system generally emits at a very low power -- typically about 0.1 Watts emitted from both the computer antenna and the router antenna. The power falls off very rapidly a few inches from the antennas.
https://www.ehs.uci.edu/programs/rad...i%20Safety.pdf

So we know what frequency and amplitude we are looking for to see if it even exists in "the other room".

EMF measurement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMF_measurement

..and we know how to measure it.

So why doesn't Partskeptic stop wasting our time and go see what EMF he belives he is receiving "in the other room"? If he fakes the result we can review the mathematics by reviewing his modem's specifications.
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Old 10th August 2020, 11:04 PM   #2214
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Wi-Fi systems emit high-frequency electromagnetic radiation (at either 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz....A Wi-Fi system generally emits at a very low power -- typically about 0.1 Watts emitted from both the computer antenna and the router antenna. The power falls off very rapidly a few inches from the antennas.
https://www.ehs.uci.edu/programs/rad...i%20Safety.pdf

So we know what frequency and amplitude we are looking for to see if it even exists in "the other room".

EMF measurement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMF_measurement

..and we know how to measure it.

So why doesn't Partskeptic stop wasting our time and go see what EMF he belives he is receiving "in the other room"? If he fakes the result we can review the mathematics by reviewing his modem's specifications.

Problem is, he is using a crappy broadband meter that cannot differentiate between frequencies and has a dubious level measurement as well. So all we can review from the power level is whether there is something transmitting. Still, the more data, the better.

If, on the other hand, he had a decent spectrum analyser, it would be much easier. However, I don't believe his spirit on enquiry extends to getting hold of a piece of equipment of the quality ideally needed for this type of test, so we must make do.

(Just FYI, it would cost in the region of about $5000 for a refurbished HP 8563e. Of course, he would need to know how to use it, so there's that...)
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Old 10th August 2020, 11:13 PM   #2215
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
I am happy to see Pixel42 getting excited again
I think that's overstating it just a tad.

Frustration has been my main emotion throughout this entire bizarre saga. I'm sure there are many better things I could be doing with my time.
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Old 10th August 2020, 11:29 PM   #2216
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
This started because you claimed to always be able to tell when the wifi was on because of the physical symptoms it caused. Now you're saying that the wifi has to be operating in a very specific (and apparently rare) way in order to provoke those symptoms. That means your hypothesis that there is a correlation between the wifi's state and your symptoms is already on very shaky ground.


If your hypothesis is correct there should be no need to "get the emfs right". Don't forget you don't need to be right about whether the wifi is on or off every time, just more often than would be expected by chance. If the correlation is there, but not as strong as you originally believed, it just means you'll need to do more trials than you originally expected to see a statistically significant hit rate.

I do not know why you are having a problem with the issue about emf level. This is not a psychic test to define whether a device is on or off. It is a test to determine whether emfs are capable of causing harm such as a headache.

I proposed a test of me in a box (shielded and unshielded) near the tower. The emf radiation is consistently high, and the symptoms therefore reasonably consistent with exposure.

Then I discovered that I got a headache when my wife put her WiFi modem on. This happened at least twice. I measured the emf and found it to be very high. But when I began a test, I found the emf to be low. Emf radiation is no different to other radiation. The effects are dependent on both the level of exposure and the duration of the exposure.

Some people do not understand what this modem does. It takes a Wifi signal from one or more cell phones and then uses another frequency and power to connect to a tower (and maybe a satellite). It would seem that if it chooses a nearby tower, it only needs low power.

Which is why I chose my wife's office for a test because the modem seems to go to high power there. The problem there is that when the modem is off, there are other devices that sometimes go to high power so there is not much difference between modem on or modem off. I have headache even before the test is started.

An example. Yesterday my wife got a call and she turned her modem on in the usual place. The kitchen. I measure the radiation. It was low (about 30). When I went closer, the radiation increased (about 300) but it was very dependent on position. Just moving the meter 6 inches caused a big drop or more of an increase (30 to 600).

I tried standing a meter away for 10 minutes. I did not sense any head pain. But what did happen was that about 20 minutes later I had a dull nasty overall headache which lasted about 2-3 hours. In the last 4 days I have been free of flu symptoms, and free of sinus infection. My concern is that I have claimed for some time that mobile emfs "amplify" any underlying problems. If my sinuses are clear, then I may not get the sharp and quick sinus pain I experienced before.

On Wednesday I will be at the office. I am going to find a spot away from the other devices and try to get high emfs. Then I will see if I get a headache. If I do not, or it takes a while for me to get a dull headache, then I need to rethink the test protocol.

I am being honest and upfront. The whole subject is complex. It makes repeatability a problem.
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Old 10th August 2020, 11:33 PM   #2217
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
Problem is, he is using a crappy broadband meter that cannot differentiate between frequencies and has a dubious level measurement as well. So all we can review from the power level is whether there is something transmitting. Still, the more data, the better.

If, on the other hand, he had a decent spectrum analyser, it would be much easier. However, I don't believe his spirit on enquiry extends to getting hold of a piece of equipment of the quality ideally needed for this type of test, so we must make do.

(Just FYI, it would cost in the region of about $5000 for a refurbished HP 8563e. Of course, he would need to know how to use it, so there's that...)

I worked in the radio and research department at Joburg City Power when I was a student. We had good equipment including spectrum analyzers. Why do you snidely infer I am incapable of using one? This is the type of snarky remark that led to IQs.

$5,000 is way beyond my budget, much as I would like one.
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Old 10th August 2020, 11:50 PM   #2218
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
On Wednesday I will be at the office. I am going to find a spot away from the other devices and try to get high emfs. Then I will see if I get a headache. If I do not, or it takes a while for me to get a dull headache, then I need to rethink the test protocol.
What you would actually need to do then is accept that your hypothesis that your headaches are caused by the wifi was wrong (which would be entirely unsurprising if it was based on just a couple of anecdotal data points) and look elsewhere for their cause.
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Old 10th August 2020, 11:52 PM   #2219
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I worked in the radio and research department at Joburg City Power when I was a student. We had good equipment including spectrum analyzers. Why do you snidely infer I am incapable of using one? This is the type of snarky remark that led to IQs.



$5,000 is way beyond my budget, much as I would like one.
Because your approach to this is bollocks.
You are less than no help at all in our questioning what may be the the source of your discomforts.
Stop fighting us. Period. Period.
As an example... I'm distressed why I'm horribly congested (you get how fatalistic it can make one when one can't breathe) and a year in just this week I think it may come down to a lactose intolerance because I buy a bit of 2% milk maybe once every couple weeks.
You NEED to either go with our quick plan of... test dev; implementation; analasys... evaluation.
Or... Shut... The... ****... Up!
Choose.
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Old 10th August 2020, 11:55 PM   #2220
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I am a little surprised (officially that is) that a person of great intelligence and long expertise, facing what might be a seminal discovery, seems unable to determine what variables are involved in making the modem go to a high level.

The test would be considerably streamlined if the operation of the modem were well understood, I think.

You are right. BUT... There are no specifications on such a modem. Hardly enough to even operate the darn thing. One variable appears to be how far the tower with an available slot is. How do I make a device NOT go to the nearest tower.

The other variable is the volume of data it must stream. If the nearest tower cannot handle the volume it passes it to a tower further away that can handle the data stream. I can influence this by having a cell phone connect and carry on a communication. A video call is best to increase the volume. I think, but cannot be sure, that a high data volume call also has higher emf radiation to carry the volume, for the same tower.

It would be best to have two cell phones making calls at the same time. This is getting complicated. I made an assumption based on three initial observations. Is it my fault that it turns out that I am dealing with a part of a system that is highly integrated and can change its behavior to suit conditions?

It is why the mobile network is so successful. 5G is going to be even worse to do tests on. In real life, it detects reflections and uses them. It is quite happy to use multiple paths at multiple powers and even steer then with directional software. Madam Curie did not know the harm radiation could cause when she first experimented.

We have not experimented enough to know the harm that might be caused to whole populations. The Telcos simply say that IF there is harm, then epidemiological studies are needed to prove it.

The problem is that many scientific tests in labs used a single frequency microwave and made efforts to have it uniform throughout the test chamber. It had now been discovered that pulsations in various ways (ie real life exposure) is much worse. Companies are aware of when field tests are being done, and they interfere with them. In one case, a group went to a South American country in secret to avoid that interference.
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Old 10th August 2020, 11:57 PM   #2221
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Because your approach to this is bollocks.
You are less than no help at all in our questioning what may be the the source of your discomforts.
Stop fighting us. Period. Period.
As an example... I'm distressed why I'm horribly congested (you get how fatalistic it can make one when one can't breathe) and a year in just this week I think it may come down to a lactose intolerance because I buy a bit of 2% milk maybe once every couple weeks.
You NEED to either go with our quick plan of... test dev; implementation; analasys... evaluation.
Or... Shut... The... ****... Up!
Choose.


Since you put it so well, I will chose. I shall shut up.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:04 AM   #2222
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You are right. BUT... There are no specifications on such a modem. Hardly enough to even operate the darn thing. One variable appears to be how far the tower with an available slot is. How do I make a device NOT go to the nearest tower.



The other variable is the volume of data it must stream. If the nearest tower cannot handle the volume it passes it to a tower further away that can handle the data stream. I can influence this by having a cell phone connect and carry on a communication. A video call is best to increase the volume. I think, but cannot be sure, that a high data volume call also has higher emf radiation to carry the volume, for the same tower.



It would be best to have two cell phones making calls at the same time. This is getting complicated. I made an assumption based on three initial observations. Is it my fault that it turns out that I am dealing with a part of a system that is highly integrated and can change its behavior to suit conditions?



It is why the mobile network is so successful. 5G is going to be even worse to do tests on. In real life, it detects reflections and uses them. It is quite happy to use multiple paths at multiple powers and even steer then with directional software. Madam Curie did not know the harm radiation could cause when she first experimented.



We have not experimented enough to know the harm that might be caused to whole populations. The Telcos simply say that IF there is harm, then epidemiological studies are needed to prove it.



The problem is that many scientific tests in labs used a single frequency microwave and made efforts to have it uniform throughout the test chamber. It had now been discovered that pulsations in various ways (ie real life exposure) is much worse. Companies are aware of when field tests are being done, and they interfere with them. In one case, a group went to a South American country in secret to avoid that interference.
Ok... a crap ton of that qualifies as unevidenced uh... paranoia.
And I don't need Jay's high-falutin' words () to say so.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:16 AM   #2223
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I proposed a test of me in a box (shielded and unshielded) near the tower.
Well, as older experienced skeptics guessed, it was only a matter of time until Partskeptic reinvented Wilhelm Reich's orgone collection box.

In 1940 he (Wilhelm Reich) started building orgone accumulators, devices that his patients sat inside to harness the reputed health benefits, leading to newspaper stories about sex boxes that cured cancer........In 1935 Reich bought an oscillograph and attached it to friends and students, who volunteered to touch and kiss each other while Reich read the tracings. One of the volunteers was a young Willy Brandt, the future chancellor of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:22 AM   #2224
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
$5,000 is way beyond my budget, much as I would like one.
Good news. I found you one to rent nearby!

8563E Portable Spectrum Analyzer

Concilium Technologies (PTY) LTD
phone ++2712 678 9200
address 1 Stanford Office Park
12 Bauhinia Street
Highveld Techno Park
CENTURION
South Africa

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Old 11th August 2020, 12:28 AM   #2225
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Since you put it so well, I will chose. I shall shut up.
TapaCrap doesn't have the "laughing dog" emoji.
Imagine it here.. " "
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:32 AM   #2226
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I worked in the radio and research department at Joburg City Power when I was a student. We had good equipment including spectrum analyzers. Why do you snidely infer I am incapable of using one? This is the type of snarky remark that led to IQs.

$5,000 is way beyond my budget, much as I would like one.
Riiight...you did your first electronics course in 4th year which you failed, according to your own words, and you worked in radio and research at City Power? Colour me unconvinced.

From your posts here, you don't seem to understand basic RF theory, why would I even begin to assume you understand spectral analysis, or even an FFT? I somehow doubt you would have, as a vac work student, got close to operating a spectrum analyser to any good effect. No way I would let a student near a piece of equipment that cost upwards of $2000 to fix when they (eventually, without ******* fail) blow the front end.

You did a heavy current degree, didn't you? Considering you had a City Power bursary, that's what I would expect.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:34 AM   #2227
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
$5,000 is way beyond my budget, much as I would like one.
But to rent one for a week, for roughly under USD$250 would be a tiny investment to win the International Skeptics USD$250,000 paranormal prize AND win that court case AND get rid of your headaches.

Unless you have been posting complete BS in this entire thread.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:38 AM   #2228
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I made an assumption based on three initial observations. Is it my fault that it turns out that I am dealing with a part of a system that is highly integrated and can change its behavior to suit conditions?
It is your fault that you made an assumption based on just three anecdotal data points. Especially when you were aware of all the blinded studies which have shown that others who made the same assumption based on the same kind of anecdotal data points were mistaken.

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We have not experimented enough to know the harm that might be caused to whole populations. The Telcos simply say that IF there is harm, then epidemiological studies are needed to prove it.
And they're right. In the absence of such studies, there is no good reason to think low levels of non ionising emf are harmful. A handful of petri dish studies out of many others are not a good reason, neither are anecdotal observations. Let alone self contradictory anecdotal observations like yours.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:41 AM   #2229
EvilBiker
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Good news. I found you one to rent nearby!

8563E Portable Spectrum Analyzer

Concilium Technologies (PTY) LTD
phone ++2712 678 9200
address 1 Stanford Office Park
12 Bauhinia Street
Highveld Techno Park
CENTURION
South Africa


Exactly. If he was at all committed, there are herds of equipment suppliers and local experts who could set up a proper test for him.

But they are all part of the conspiracy, and how could he trust the equipment if he didn't own it?

So *shrug*.
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:45 AM   #2230
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
You did a heavy current degree, didn't you? Considering you had a City Power bursary, that's what I would expect.
That's not how Johannesburg City Power were using Partskeptic to generate heat and power..
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:50 AM   #2231
EvilBiker
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I think that's overstating it just a tad.

Well, I could briefly see an uptick of interest - you made tables!


Quote:
Frustration has been my main emotion throughout this entire bizarre saga. I'm sure there are many better things I could be doing with my time.

You and me both. However, as always, even the most bizarre saga does on occasion produce something educational, or, failing that, humorous.

My biggest takeaway from this thread so far has been the opportunity to show my SO prime examples of many logical fallacies, as well as a textbook case of Dunning-Kruger and cognitive dissonance.
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Old 11th August 2020, 01:04 AM   #2232
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The problem is that many scientific tests in labs used a single frequency microwave and made efforts to have it uniform throughout the test chamber. It had now been discovered that pulsations in various ways (ie real life exposure) is much worse. Companies are aware of when field tests are being done, and they interfere with them. In one case, a group went to a South American country in secret to avoid that interference.

Here's your laughing dog, Jim_MDP:



Upthread I showed you a piece of equipment that can be used as a communication device for testing cellular communications. Do you really think that a cellular provider would be able to get all the certification for their products without doing testing of all forms of communication??

Uniform throughout the test chamber - here's another laughing dog:



You actually have no idea what test chambers are used for RF testing, do you? I'm not telling you, you figure it out for yourself.

Then feel free to tell me why your "uniform throughout the test chamber" statement is wrong. For extra points, tell me what the primary function of such a chamber is?

South American country?? Here's another laughing dog:

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Old 11th August 2020, 01:38 AM   #2233
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Thanks EB, wish I could bank it in TapaCrap . Please help PS ... screw it, he's beyond.

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Old 11th August 2020, 04:21 AM   #2234
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Well, as older experienced skeptics guessed, it was only a matter of time until Partskeptic reinvented Wilhelm Reich's orgone collection box.

In 1940 he (Wilhelm Reich) started building orgone accumulators, devices that his patients sat inside to harness the reputed health benefits, leading to newspaper stories about sex boxes that cured cancer........In 1935 Reich bought an oscillograph and attached it to friends and students, who volunteered to touch and kiss each other while Reich read the tracings. One of the volunteers was a young Willy Brandt, the future chancellor of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich

He should have kept improving it...
https://www.askmen.com/entertainment...s-guide-2.html


But on a more serious note, I wonder if PS already has a device to measure Cell phone and Cell tower signals? I refer to the many apps on Google Play store that will run on android phones (don't know if IPhone's have similar apps) that will show local WiFi signals, and (different apps that show) Cell Tower signals. I admit I'm out of my knowledge base here, but maybe some of you experts could comment?

Wifi analyzer: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...erpro&hl=en_US

Cell tower analyzer: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...olite&hl=en_US
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Old 11th August 2020, 06:42 AM   #2235
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
It is a test to determine whether emfs are capable of causing harm such as a headache.
No. It's a test to see whether your specific equipment is the cause of your headaches. That's a very different question than whether "emfs" are generally harmful in some vague or unrelated way. You're the one that keeps conflating unrelated and incompatible claims. You're trying to blame telcos for your headaches. But you need a different thing to be true in order to pretend to be a prophet.

Quote:
Some people do not understand what this modem does. It takes a Wifi signal from one or more cell phones and then uses another frequency and power to connect to a tower (and maybe a satellite).
Hey, I know a thing or two about satellites. Which satellite system are you claiming it connects to? In which band?

Quote:
It would seem that if it chooses a nearby tower, it only needs low power.
"It would seem," or you know this for a fact? If you're going to call out people for not knowing how your equipment works, you'd had better know how your equipment works. Otherwise your guesswork is no better than theirs. The problem is that so much of your claim is based on you assuming or guessing that certain things happen, and then bristling when others suggest the truth may be different and you should try harder to find it out.

Quote:
The problem there is that when the modem is off, there are other devices that sometimes go to high power so there is not much difference between modem on or modem off.
Which devices? How do you know they are "going to high power?"

Quote:
I have headache even before the test is started.
Then even anecdotally speaking your symptoms don't seem to correlate to the modem. Now you're claiming a general electro smog effect.

Quote:
An example. Yesterday my wife got a call and she turned her modem on in the usual place. The kitchen. I measure the radiation. It was low (about 30). When I went closer, the radiation increased (about 300) but it was very dependent on position. Just moving the meter 6 inches caused a big drop or more of an increase (30 to 600).
Sounds like the world's crappiest meter, then. Either that or the inverse square law works entirely different in your kitchen than it does in the rest of the universe.

Quote:
My concern is that I have claimed for some time that mobile emfs "amplify" any underlying problems.
You have claimed this. It's laughable on its face. I asked you to prove it. You waved your hands vaguely at "the science" and then refused to discuss the subject in any greater detail.

No. Electromagnetic field energy is not some magical boogey man that has the ability to cause whatever you want to blame on it today.

Quote:
If I do not, or it takes a while for me to get a dull headache, then I need to rethink the test protocol.
No, you just need to accept the evident reality that your headaches have absolutely nothing to do with the magical waves you pretend are washing over you.

Quote:
I am being honest and upfront. The whole subject is complex. It makes repeatability a problem.
No. You just keep changing the claim so that, according to you, it can't be tested. Even if it makes the claim absurd on its face.
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Old 11th August 2020, 07:23 AM   #2236
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
How do I make a device NOT go to the nearest tower.
You could start by learning about principles of cellular communication from people who aren't afraid of technology.

Quote:
I think, but cannot be sure, that a high data volume call also has higher emf radiation to carry the volume, for the same tower.
No. That's not at all how modulation works.

Quote:
I made an assumption based on three initial observations. Is it my fault that it turns out that I am dealing with a part of a system that is highly integrated and can change its behavior to suit conditions?
Yes, it's your fault. You made a scant number of initial observations, augmented them with a ton of paranoid assumption, and then allowed all that to color all your thinking thereafter. And you have gone to great lengths to try to convince other people that your thinking is defensible, and has scientific and legal value.

And you continue to make assumptions based largely in a combination of paranoia and ignorance. And you continue to attempt to hold other people responsible, either for the effects you assume, or for agreeing that you are the only one who's right based on those assumptions. Yes, all of that is your fault. And people here are trying to help you save yourself from those errors by doing what skeptics do best: encourage critical thinking.

Quote:
It is quite happy to use multiple paths at multiple powers and even steer then with directional software.
Steerable beams is what lets them to do more with less total emitted power. The anti-capitalists have styled this as some nefarious means by which those big evil companies are preying on people.

Quote:
Madam Curie did not know the harm radiation could cause when she first experimented.
And unlike the poor Curies, we have decades of extensive research on electromagnetic field energy to inform us. That includes attempts to make it do intentionally what you're claiming it does, but for beneficial ends. We're hardly babes in the woods on this matter. And your literature knows this, which is why it has to wave its hands vaguely at supposedly new, mysterious properties of radio waves that are allegedly poorly understood. The Curies died simply because the radiation they studied is of the ionizing variety. Radio waves are non-ionizing. As much as you want to trump up some analogy here, there simply is none.

Quote:
We have not experimented enough to know the harm that might be caused to whole populations.
According to who? You've just shifted back into copying anti-capitalist polemics. Yes, we can tell who you're copying your arguments from. This is the same stuff they've trotted out every time a new "G" comes online. They don't know the science, and therefore neither do you. All that vague handwaving is meant only to convince the general public. You seem to think it's convincing to people here too.
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Old 11th August 2020, 07:35 AM   #2237
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Ok... a crap ton of that qualifies as unevidenced uh... paranoia.
Correct. Every time a new "G" is rolled out, there's a flurry of activity from certain groups. They argue that the technological advancements particular to a new generation of RF infrastructure is going to be the death of us all. These groups come principality from Luddites ("Our technology is destroying the planet!") and anti-capitalists ("Big companies are ignoring the danger so that they can continue to profit!"). But the lion's share of their argumentation is just recycled polemics with cherry-picked, and poorly-interpreted, footnotes from a combination of the legitimate scientific literature and the pseudo-literature particular to Luddism. The anti-capitalists are generally the ones responsible for the paranoid icing on top.

This is clearly where PartSkeptic is getting this part of his argument. He seems to think he can reproduce their literature survey here, pretend it's his own scholarship, and thereby put everyone else on the hook. It's been a couple months since he tried this last, so I guess he imagines everyone has forgotten the argument.

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And I don't need Jay's high-falutin' words () to say so.
Simplicitur dictum ipse dicet.
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Old 11th August 2020, 07:36 AM   #2238
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I worked in the radio and research department at Joburg City Power when I was a student. We had good equipment including spectrum analyzers. Why do you snidely infer I am incapable of using one? This is the type of snarky remark that led to IQs.

$5,000 is way beyond my budget, much as I would like one.
Note the interesting phrasing;

I worked there. We had good equipment.

Two separate sentences. No statement that he has actually used them, or even that he knows how to use them, just an indignant, "Why do you snidely infer I am incapable of using one?".
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Old 11th August 2020, 11:21 AM   #2239
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Then I discovered that I got a headache when my wife put her WiFi modem on. This happened at least twice. I measured the emf and found it to be very high. But when I began a test, I found the emf to be low. Emf radiation is no different to other radiation. The effects are dependent on both the level of exposure and the duration of the exposure.
It happened twice? Good luck building a statistical case out of that.

And after it happened twice you whipped out the crank-o-meter that you coincidentally happened to have bought from a company the only markets pointless devices to cranks?

That just tells me that you believed the wild CT BEFORE you had any headaches.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Some people do not understand what this modem does. It takes a Wifi signal from one or more cell phones and then uses another frequency and power to connect to a tower (and maybe a satellite). It would seem that if it chooses a nearby tower, it only needs low power.
No partskeptic, we know exactly how such devices work and they ain't connecting to any satellites, as you would be well aware of, if your claims to expertise were real.
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Old 11th August 2020, 01:26 PM   #2240
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
...







Simplicitur dictum ipse dicet.


(... trying to paste a little YT url here of a Mr. Jack Benny. TapaCrap not cooperating. )


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