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Old 29th December 2020, 04:56 AM   #2801
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh wow! A really hard-hitting piece in a German newspaper Der Speigel, worth reading because it sums up what has happened quite succinctly and without the faux-hurray and fake triumphancy of the SUN or the DAILY TROLL:

Spiegel [google translate]

This you will not read in the UK press. However, the public knows it was lied to. Trump set a new precedent in that lying, dishonesty and cheating were OK, not so bad <shrug> and like the American public, the UK public just sees it as the new norm, when once such dishonesty would have meant instant resignation or even prosecution. Who remembers the politician who lied about a hotel bill? What a scandal that was! Or the politician who appeared to be associated with a hooker?

The Murdoch and Barclay Brothers papers are in control, that's why. Trump is only meeting his downfall now because Murdoch-owned New York Post is now writing horrible things about him, when it helped put Trump in power in the first place.
Odd how I have managed to read all of those things and more in the UK-ian press, heard them on the BBC (the lies over Brexit have been a staple of gags from pretty much every comedian on a topical show, even including Geoff Norcott who is in favour of Brexit). It's more relevant that most English (sic) folk just don't care.
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Old 29th December 2020, 07:16 AM   #2802
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh wow! A really hard-hitting piece in a German newspaper Der Speigel, worth reading because it sums up what has happened quite succinctly and without the faux-hurray and fake triumphancy of the SUN or the DAILY TROLL:

Spiegel [google translate]

This you will not read in the UK press. However, the public knows it was lied to. Trump set a new precedent in that lying, dishonesty and cheating were OK, not so bad <shrug> and like the American public, the UK public just sees it as the new norm, when once such dishonesty would have meant instant resignation or even prosecution. Who remembers the politician who lied about a hotel bill? What a scandal that was! Or the politician who appeared to be associated with a hooker?

The Murdoch and Barclay Brothers papers are in control, that's why. Trump is only meeting his downfall now because Murdoch-owned New York Post is now writing horrible things about him, when it helped put Trump in power in the first place.
Johnson was doing it in politics long before Trump even started campaigning.
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Old 29th December 2020, 08:49 AM   #2803
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Read that. Do that daily.
Then why did you claim this?

Quote:
This you will not read in the UK press.
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Old 29th December 2020, 10:19 AM   #2804
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And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.
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Old 29th December 2020, 10:21 AM   #2805
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Odd how I have managed to read all of those things and more in the UK-ian press, heard them on the BBC (the lies over Brexit have been a staple of gags from pretty much every comedian on a topical show, even including Geoff Norcott who is in favour of Brexit). It's more relevant that most English (sic) folk just don't care.
Comedy and satire doesn't count. Anyway I don't watch television.
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Old 29th December 2020, 10:25 AM   #2806
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Then why did you claim this?

Come off it. Do you really believe the mass media press would be 'hailing' the deal if it had been brokered by Corbyn? No, of course not. They would be screaming for his blood and demanding he resign.


Imagine a picture of Corbyn or Starmer with his feet up on the desk and constantly going AWOL. Do you really believe the SUN and the MAIL would be headlining 'Jeremy/Keir brings you a Merry Brexmas'?
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Old 29th December 2020, 10:26 AM   #2807
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Johnson was doing it in politics long before Trump even started campaigning.
That might be true and look how the the tabloids got firmly behind him despite his total uselessness.
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Old 29th December 2020, 10:30 AM   #2808
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.
'Boris' has his clear 80-majority. The ERG are backing his deal. So it is not a choice of 'deal' or no-deal'.

How can Starmer say he backs the deal without having even read it or debated it?

If the SNP, the Greens, the DUP and the LibDems can abstain/vote against, what is the need for Starmer to apply the whip?

It is a ******* awful deal and doesn't do what the DAILYMAIL/SUN says on the tin.
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Old 29th December 2020, 10:32 AM   #2809
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.
I don't get this viewpoint. If Starmer whips labour to vote to accept it then every time he tries to pin Boris down for Brexit failure, Johnson can respond 'You voted for the deal'

Far better to let a government with a landslide majority fail to deliver their flagship policy in order to win the next election.
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Old 29th December 2020, 11:30 AM   #2810
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it's a done deal, the vote tomorrow is more about implementation than yes or no.
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Old 29th December 2020, 11:42 AM   #2811
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But they don't want anyone who can actually make a change in power.
Bollocks.
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Old 29th December 2020, 12:00 PM   #2812
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I see Ryanair shareholders are losing voting rights due to Brexit....
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Old 29th December 2020, 12:07 PM   #2813
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Comedy and satire doesn't count. Anyway I don't watch television.
Didn't mention TV, as I was thinking more of radio (I listen to more current affairs & news on radio).And I say satire and comedy does count, as it is still a discussion of current affairs and news.
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Old 29th December 2020, 12:46 PM   #2814
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Bollocks.
Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn (what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???).
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Old 29th December 2020, 12:50 PM   #2815
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
I don't get this viewpoint. If Starmer whips labour to vote to accept it then every time he tries to pin Boris down for Brexit failure, Johnson can respond 'You voted for the deal'

Far better to let a government with a landslide majority fail to deliver their flagship policy in order to win the next election.
'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour.

Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me.
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Old 29th December 2020, 12:51 PM   #2816
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For AngrySoba who claimed I wasn't aware of the GUARDIAN and patronisingly gave me a list of articles to read:

Quote:
Since you’re here ...
… joining us from Finland, we have a small favour to ask. You've read 671 articles in the last year. And you’re not alone; millions are flocking to the Guardian for open, independent, quality news every day, and readers in 180 countries around the world now support us financially.


We believe everyone deserves access to information that’s grounded in science and truth, and analysis rooted in authority and integrity. That’s why we made a different choice: to keep our reporting open for all readers, regardless of where they live or what they can afford to pay.
It is from reading lesser read quality papers that one becomes aware of the lack of transparency, honesty, decent investigative journalism in the tabloids, and now extending to the TELEGRAPH recently. If you wish to believe the news you read in the tabloids are authentic and not carefully crafted manipulative propaganda, that is your prerogative. The discerning know better.
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Old 29th December 2020, 12:54 PM   #2817
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That might be true and look how the the tabloids got firmly behind him despite his total uselessness.
No might about it.
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Old 29th December 2020, 12:58 PM   #2818
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour.

Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me.
It is tricky because as an MP you have to show loyalty to the party line but on the other hand where the end vote is given then you are free to stand by your principles. For example, say one of your core values is that you are against drug dealing and you discover the Brexit deal - which was left to the eleventh hour and you only have half a day to debate it - contains a cocaine-dealing clause, then you should stick to your principles and vote against it for the person to blame for the crap deal is the person who cunningly and shiftly used sleight of hand to enforce the bummer on you. You wouldn't let your local shopkeeper shortchange you, so why would you vote for something that is against your principles?
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Old 29th December 2020, 01:45 PM   #2819
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.
It is this deal or no deal.

The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations.

Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.
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Old 29th December 2020, 01:45 PM   #2820
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour.

Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me.
Well, it looks like there will be no rebellion now, so Labour are going to vote on the same side as Rees Mogg and the ERG. I just don't see that making them a credible opposition.

Also if Johnson had failed to get his own party, with the largest majority in Parliament for a generation to pass their biggest policy commitment, he wouldn't be pointing fingers at anyone without them falling over laughing.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:01 PM   #2821
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It is this deal or no deal.

The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations.

Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.
Four and a half years, just days to go to crashing out without a deal, and you think negotiations were sped up? What would negotiations which were being slowed down by the incompetence and intransigence of a bunch of clueless English public schoolboys have looked like?
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:01 PM   #2822
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn (what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???).

Same reason most of the Labour voters I know* didn't support him and I (as a Labour member) voted for Starmer. He was unelectable and yes, the media did a really unfair hatchet job on him, but he was never a leader. I know canvassers for Labour who were on peoples doorsteps trying to explain WTF "constructive ambiguity" meant to people who "expect a little more back for their taxes like school books, beds in hospitals and peace in our bloody time All they get is old men grinding axes".



*skewed sample. Most of us are of an age to remember when Labour was run by people who preferred ideological purity to actually helping people.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:17 PM   #2823
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn.
Because Corbyn was, and is, an unelectable, imbecile, Brexiteer, redolent with the stench of lunatic anti-semitism, who cannot pass an inane, ideological bandwagon without jumping on-board.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???
Because without Corbyn's idiocy Johnson wouldn't have been elected with an unassailable majority and imposed his insane Brexit on the UK.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:18 PM   #2824
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FTA negotiations didn't start until February.
The previous negotiations were on the withdrawal agreement and what a mess Theresa May made of that period.
And Jeremy Corbyn and Keir Starmer.

Last edited by Airfix; 29th December 2020 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:21 PM   #2825
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It is this deal or no deal.

The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations.

Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.
Rubbish. The UK had better deals on offer. They rejected them as they were insufficiently appealing to the 'Brexit base', the racist, xenophobic, out-of-touch-with-reality Little Englanders and their imperial delusions.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:26 PM   #2826
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When I visited the UK for the first time, I was horrified at the daily press. Almost no general prupose newspapers ("London TImes" is the only one I saw) the rest tabloid nonsense.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:28 PM   #2827
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SO maybe pretty much alllowing the Party Bosses to decide all the major Government offices is not such a great idea? Maybe the avergae voter should have more input?
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:29 PM   #2828
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
When I visited the UK for the first time, I was horrified at the daily press. Almost no general prupose newspapers ("London TImes" is the only one I saw) the rest tabloid nonsense.
There's The i, the Guardian, the Independent (now online only), regional newspapers, the Financial Times.

There is a lot of tabloid nonsense though. Daily Mail is one of the worst.

I dearly wish papers were required, as the BBC is, to be impartial.

They shouldn't tell people how to vote, they should only be able to report the policies.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:32 PM   #2829
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Rubbish. The UK had better deals on offer. They rejected them as they were insufficiently appealing to the 'Brexit base', the racist, xenophobic, out-of-touch-with-reality Little Englanders and their imperial delusions.
The idea that 17.41 million people are racist little Englanders, is delusional rubbish.

Meanwhile, this is the proposed deal:

Have a read, and judge it by it's content, rather than prejudice.

I haven't read it yet.

I will not judge it until I have.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:46 PM   #2830
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The idea that 17.41 million people are racist little Englanders, is delusional rubbish.
Evidence and experience tells me otherwise.

Far more than 17 million to be honest.
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Old 29th December 2020, 03:02 PM   #2831
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I didn't vote leave because of foreigners, I voted leave because of democracy and experience tells me that the only way to have democratic freedom of choice in policy areas controlled by the EU, is to not be in it.

Take the railways, I would like to bring back a wholly state owned passenger railway system.

But the fourth railways package requires a market for railway services.

Agriculture, members of the EU have no alternative agricultural policy than the CAP, which has proved tremendously difficult to reform.

If David Cameron had been able to achieve a treaty change for the reforms he'd sought, I'd have been more likely to vote remain, but he failed and acted like he'd succeeded, and staked his reputation and his career on a campaign for remain, which he lost.

The campaign would probably have done better without his support.
And some of the 17.4 million, voted leave, so he would resign.
That's not a racist position to take.

Ok, it's not a very good reason to vote leave, but some did.
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Old 29th December 2020, 03:05 PM   #2832
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Funny how the railway systems in Europe are far more efficient and run better services cheaper than those in the UK.
You think they will improve?
You think that agriculture will be better now we are out of the EU? farmers disagree.

What 'democratic freedom' have you gained now we have left the EU?
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Old 29th December 2020, 03:19 PM   #2833
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And EU policy has been to change the continent's railways and create a single market for railway services.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes...ckages/2013_en

The privatisation drive on the continent has not gone without hitches.
https://www.france24.com/en/20191227...-three-decades

https://www.dw.com/en/german-rail-st...ays/a-46648618

We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement, we gained, but seem to have largely given away in the new FTA, powers over state aid.
We've gained an independent trade policy.
Fishermen have a better share of the quota than before.

It's not all bad news.

Last edited by Airfix; 29th December 2020 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 29th December 2020, 07:24 PM   #2834
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement
You gloss over the fact that the UK was one of the most influential and powerful members in the EU and thus shaped said regulations themselves. The British people really have only themselves to blame if their democratically elected representatives didn't defend their interests enough.
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Old 29th December 2020, 07:31 PM   #2835
Captain_Swoop
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And EU policy has been to change the continent's railways and create a single market for railway services.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes...ckages/2013_en

The privatisation drive on the continent has not gone without hitches.
https://www.france24.com/en/20191227...-three-decades

https://www.dw.com/en/german-rail-st...ays/a-46648618

We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement, we gained, but seem to have largely given away in the new FTA, powers over state aid.
We've gained an independent trade policy.
Fishermen have a better share of the quota than before.

It's not all bad news.
hahah you are funny. we haven't gained anything. We never lost any of those 'powers'

You seem to have fallen for the lies.
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Old 29th December 2020, 11:34 PM   #2836
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
For AngrySoba who claimed I wasn't aware of the GUARDIAN and patronisingly gave me a list of articles to read:
It was you who claimed that you hadn't read (and couldn't read!) criticism of the Brexit deal in the UK press. Why are you trying to have it both ways claiming that:

1.) there is no criticism of it in the British press
AND
2.) you read the Guardian criticism of it.

All you have to do is qualify what you said earlier instead of changing the subject to Corbyn.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is from reading lesser read quality papers that one becomes aware of the lack of transparency, honesty, decent investigative journalism in the tabloids, and now extending to the TELEGRAPH recently. If you wish to believe the news you read in the tabloids are authentic and not carefully crafted manipulative propaganda, that is your prerogative. The discerning know better.
I don't read the tabloids.
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Old 30th December 2020, 12:42 AM   #2837
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Apparently we have Rory Bremnar to thank for this not happening many years earlier.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55477424

Quote:
Honestly, who'd have thought that without a spoof phone call, a group of Eurosceptic backbenchers might have forced the prime minister to resign and taken us out of the EU. What are the chances of that?
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Last edited by Pixel42; 30th December 2020 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 30th December 2020, 02:49 AM   #2838
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Question

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
hahah you are funny. we haven't gained anything. We never lost any of those 'powers'

You seem to have fallen for the lies.
Incorrect. The only institution of the EU that is able to propose policy in the European parliament is the Commission. The public cannot lobby their MEP to propose legislation, only to amend reject or approve legislation.

The Commission aren't elected by the public, if they were I'd be a supporter, but they aren't.

If that's enough for you, that's fine. But it's not good enough for me.
And "the lies" I read, are the statements on the EU Commission website ec.europa.eu

Last edited by Airfix; 30th December 2020 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 30th December 2020, 02:56 AM   #2839
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If you want to know something that really is funny, according to the BBC page 921 of the proposed UK EU FTA contains references to Netscape from an earlier 2008 EU law and 1024 bit RSA encryption, just copied and pasted and not checked by either side.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/technology-55475433
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Old 30th December 2020, 03:27 AM   #2840
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Incorrect. The only institution of the EU that is able to propose policy in the European parliament is the Commission. The public cannot lobby their MEP to propose legislation, only to amend reject or approve legislation.

The Commission aren't elected by the public, if they were I'd be a supporter, but they aren't.

If that's enough for you, that's fine. But it's not good enough for me.
And "the lies" I read, are the statements on the EU Commission website ec.europa.eu
The EU is no less democratic than the UK. There are deficiences in both systems. The EU makes new laws by:
Quote:
Who really makes laws?

EU laws are agreed by two institutions: the council of ministers, comprising ministers from 28 EU governments and the European parliament. The European council, EU leaders meeting for regular late-night summits, plays an increasingly important role in setting the agenda.
(27 EU governments now obviously).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-reality-check
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...ims-democracy/
https://theconversation.com/how-demo...an-union-59419
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