[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? The Perfect 10. - Page 71

Carrot Flower King · 29th December 2020, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Oh wow! A really hard-hitting piece in a German newspaper Der Speigel, worth reading because it sums up what has happened quite succinctly and without the faux-hurray and fake triumphancy of the SUN or the DAILY TROLL:

Spiegel [google translate]

This you will not read in the UK press. However, the public knows it was lied to. Trump set a new precedent in that lying, dishonesty and cheating were OK, not so bad <shrug> and like the American public, the UK public just sees it as the new norm, when once such dishonesty would have meant instant resignation or even prosecution. Who remembers the politician who lied about a hotel bill? What a scandal that was! Or the politician who appeared to be associated with a hooker?

The Murdoch and Barclay Brothers papers are in control, that's why. Trump is only meeting his downfall now because Murdoch-owned New York Post is now writing horrible things about him, when it helped put Trump in power in the first place.

Odd how I have managed to read all of those things and more in the UK-ian press, heard them on the BBC (the lies over Brexit have been a staple of gags from pretty much every comedian on a topical show, even including Geoff Norcott who is in favour of Brexit). It's more relevant that most English (sic) folk just don't care.

Darat · 29th December 2020, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Oh wow! A really hard-hitting piece in a German newspaper Der Speigel, worth reading because it sums up what has happened quite succinctly and without the faux-hurray and fake triumphancy of the SUN or the DAILY TROLL:

Spiegel [google translate]

This you will not read in the UK press. However, the public knows it was lied to. Trump set a new precedent in that lying, dishonesty and cheating were OK, not so bad <shrug> and like the American public, the UK public just sees it as the new norm, when once such dishonesty would have meant instant resignation or even prosecution. Who remembers the politician who lied about a hotel bill? What a scandal that was! Or the politician who appeared to be associated with a hooker?

The Murdoch and Barclay Brothers papers are in control, that's why. Trump is only meeting his downfall now because Murdoch-owned New York Post is now writing horrible things about him, when it helped put Trump in power in the first place.

Johnson was doing it in politics long before Trump even started campaigning.

angrysoba · 29th December 2020, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Read that. Do that daily.

Then why did you claim this?

Quote:

This you will not read in the UK press.

Garrison · 29th December 2020, 10:19 AM

And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.

Vixen · 29th December 2020, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Odd how I have managed to read all of those things and more in the UK-ian press, heard them on the BBC (the lies over Brexit have been a staple of gags from pretty much every comedian on a topical show, even including Geoff Norcott who is in favour of Brexit). It's more relevant that most English (sic) folk just don't care.

Comedy and satire doesn't count. Anyway I don't watch television.

Vixen · 29th December 2020, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Then why did you claim this?

Come off it. Do you really believe the mass media press would be 'hailing' the deal if it had been brokered by Corbyn? No, of course not. They would be screaming for his blood and demanding he resign.

Imagine a picture of Corbyn or Starmer with his feet up on the desk and constantly going AWOL. Do you really believe the SUN and the MAIL would be headlining 'Jeremy/Keir brings you a Merry Brexmas'?

Vixen · 29th December 2020, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Johnson was doing it in politics long before Trump even started campaigning.

That might be true and look how the the tabloids got firmly behind him despite his total uselessness.

Vixen · 29th December 2020, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Garrison

And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.

'Boris' has his clear 80-majority. The ERG are backing his deal. So it is not a choice of 'deal' or no-deal'.

How can Starmer say he backs the deal without having even read it or debated it?

If the SNP, the Greens, the DUP and the LibDems can abstain/vote against, what is the need for Starmer to apply the whip?

It is a ******* awful deal and doesn't do what the DAILYMAIL/SUN says on the tin.

Guybrush Threepwood · 29th December 2020, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Garrison

And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.

I don't get this viewpoint. If Starmer whips labour to vote to accept it then every time he tries to pin Boris down for Brexit failure, Johnson can respond 'You voted for the deal'

Far better to let a government with a landslide majority fail to deliver their flagship policy in order to win the next election.

Captain_Swoop · 29th December 2020, 11:30 AM

it's a done deal, the vote tomorrow is more about implementation than yes or no.

catsmate · 29th December 2020, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

But they don't want anyone who can actually make a change in power.

Bollocks.

catsmate · 29th December 2020, 12:00 PM

I see Ryanair shareholders are losing voting rights due to Brexit....

Carrot Flower King · 29th December 2020, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Comedy and satire doesn't count. Anyway I don't watch television.

Didn't mention TV, as I was thinking more of radio (I listen to more current affairs & news on radio).And I say satire and comedy does count, as it is still a discussion of current affairs and news.

Vixen · 29th December 2020, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Bollocks.

Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn (what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???).

GlennB · 29th December 2020, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

I don't get this viewpoint. If Starmer whips labour to vote to accept it then every time he tries to pin Boris down for Brexit failure, Johnson can respond 'You voted for the deal'

Far better to let a government with a landslide majority fail to deliver their flagship policy in order to win the next election.

'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour.

Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me.

Vixen · 29th December 2020, 12:51 PM

For AngrySoba who claimed I wasn't aware of the GUARDIAN and patronisingly gave me a list of articles to read:

Quote:

Since you’re here ...
… joining us from Finland, we have a small favour to ask. You've read 671 articles in the last year. And you’re not alone; millions are flocking to the Guardian for open, independent, quality news every day, and readers in 180 countries around the world now support us financially.

We believe everyone deserves access to information that’s grounded in science and truth, and analysis rooted in authority and integrity. That’s why we made a different choice: to keep our reporting open for all readers, regardless of where they live or what they can afford to pay.

It is from reading lesser read quality papers that one becomes aware of the lack of transparency, honesty, decent investigative journalism in the tabloids, and now extending to the TELEGRAPH recently. If you wish to believe the news you read in the tabloids are authentic and not carefully crafted manipulative propaganda, that is your prerogative. The discerning know better.

Darat · 29th December 2020, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

That might be true and look how the the tabloids got firmly behind him despite his total uselessness.

No might about it.

Vixen · 29th December 2020, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour.

Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me.

It is tricky because as an MP you have to show loyalty to the party line but on the other hand where the end vote is given then you are free to stand by your principles. For example, say one of your core values is that you are against drug dealing and you discover the Brexit deal - which was left to the eleventh hour and you only have half a day to debate it - contains a cocaine-dealing clause, then you should stick to your principles and vote against it for the person to blame for the crap deal is the person who cunningly and shiftly used sleight of hand to enforce the bummer on you. You wouldn't let your local shopkeeper shortchange you, so why would you vote for something that is against your principles?

Airfix · 29th December 2020, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Garrison

And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.

It is this deal or no deal.

The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations.

Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.

Guybrush Threepwood · 29th December 2020, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour.

Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me.

Well, it looks like there will be no rebellion now, so Labour are going to vote on the same side as Rees Mogg and the ERG. I just don't see that making them a credible opposition.

Also if Johnson had failed to get his own party, with the largest majority in Parliament for a generation to pass their biggest policy commitment, he wouldn't be pointing fingers at anyone without them falling over laughing.

Pixel42 · 29th December 2020, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Airfix

It is this deal or no deal.

The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations.

Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.

Four and a half years, just days to go to crashing out without a deal, and you think negotiations were sped up? What would negotiations which were being slowed down by the incompetence and intransigence of a bunch of clueless English public schoolboys have looked like?

Wudang · 29th December 2020, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn (what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???).

Same reason most of the Labour voters I know* didn't support him and I (as a Labour member) voted for Starmer. He was unelectable and yes, the media did a really unfair hatchet job on him, but he was never a leader. I know canvassers for Labour who were on peoples doorsteps trying to explain WTF "constructive ambiguity" meant to people who "expect a little more back for their taxes like school books, beds in hospitals and peace in our bloody time All they get is old men grinding axes".

*skewed sample. Most of us are of an age to remember when Labour was run by people who preferred ideological purity to actually helping people.

catsmate · 29th December 2020, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn.

Because Corbyn was, and is, an unelectable, imbecile, Brexiteer, redolent with the stench of lunatic anti-semitism, who cannot pass an inane, ideological bandwagon without jumping on-board.

Originally Posted by Vixen

what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???

Because without Corbyn's idiocy Johnson wouldn't have been elected with an unassailable majority and imposed his insane Brexit on the UK.

Airfix · 29th December 2020, 02:18 PM

FTA negotiations didn't start until February.
The previous negotiations were on the withdrawal agreement and what a mess Theresa May made of that period.
And Jeremy Corbyn and Keir Starmer.

catsmate · 29th December 2020, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Airfix

It is this deal or no deal.

The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations.

Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.

Rubbish. The UK had better deals on offer. They rejected them as they were insufficiently appealing to the 'Brexit base', the racist, xenophobic, out-of-touch-with-reality Little Englanders and their imperial delusions.

dudalb · 29th December 2020, 02:26 PM

When I visited the UK for the first time, I was horrified at the daily press. Almost no general prupose newspapers ("London TImes" is the only one I saw) the rest tabloid nonsense.

dudalb · 29th December 2020, 02:28 PM

SO maybe pretty much alllowing the Party Bosses to decide all the major Government offices is not such a great idea? Maybe the avergae voter should have more input?

Airfix · 29th December 2020, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

When I visited the UK for the first time, I was horrified at the daily press. Almost no general prupose newspapers ("London TImes" is the only one I saw) the rest tabloid nonsense.

There's The i, the Guardian, the Independent (now online only), regional newspapers, the Financial Times.

There is a lot of tabloid nonsense though. Daily Mail is one of the worst.

I dearly wish papers were required, as the BBC is, to be impartial.

They shouldn't tell people how to vote, they should only be able to report the policies.

Airfix · 29th December 2020, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Rubbish. The UK had better deals on offer. They rejected them as they were insufficiently appealing to the 'Brexit base', the racist, xenophobic, out-of-touch-with-reality Little Englanders and their imperial delusions.

The idea that 17.41 million people are racist little Englanders, is delusional rubbish.

Meanwhile, this is the proposed deal:

Have a read, and judge it by it's content, rather than prejudice.

I haven't read it yet.

I will not judge it until I have.

Captain_Swoop · 29th December 2020, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Airfix

The idea that 17.41 million people are racist little Englanders, is delusional rubbish.

Evidence and experience tells me otherwise.

Far more than 17 million to be honest.

Airfix · 29th December 2020, 03:02 PM

I didn't vote leave because of foreigners, I voted leave because of democracy and experience tells me that the only way to have democratic freedom of choice in policy areas controlled by the EU, is to not be in it.

Take the railways, I would like to bring back a wholly state owned passenger railway system.

But the fourth railways package requires a market for railway services.

Agriculture, members of the EU have no alternative agricultural policy than the CAP, which has proved tremendously difficult to reform.

If David Cameron had been able to achieve a treaty change for the reforms he'd sought, I'd have been more likely to vote remain, but he failed and acted like he'd succeeded, and staked his reputation and his career on a campaign for remain, which he lost.

The campaign would probably have done better without his support.
And some of the 17.4 million, voted leave, so he would resign.
That's not a racist position to take.

Ok, it's not a very good reason to vote leave, but some did.

Captain_Swoop · 29th December 2020, 03:05 PM

Funny how the railway systems in Europe are far more efficient and run better services cheaper than those in the UK.
You think they will improve?
You think that agriculture will be better now we are out of the EU? farmers disagree.

What 'democratic freedom' have you gained now we have left the EU?

Airfix · 29th December 2020, 03:19 PM

And EU policy has been to change the continent's railways and create a single market for railway services.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes...ckages/2013_en

The privatisation drive on the continent has not gone without hitches.
https://www.france24.com/en/20191227...-three-decades

https://www.dw.com/en/german-rail-st...ays/a-46648618

We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement, we gained, but seem to have largely given away in the new FTA, powers over state aid.
We've gained an independent trade policy.
Fishermen have a better share of the quota than before.

It's not all bad news.

Arcade22 · 29th December 2020, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by Airfix

We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement

You gloss over the fact that the UK was one of the most influential and powerful members in the EU and thus shaped said regulations themselves. The British people really have only themselves to blame if their democratically elected representatives didn't defend their interests enough.

Captain_Swoop · 29th December 2020, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Airfix

And EU policy has been to change the continent's railways and create a single market for railway services.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes...ckages/2013_en

The privatisation drive on the continent has not gone without hitches.
https://www.france24.com/en/20191227...-three-decades

https://www.dw.com/en/german-rail-st...ays/a-46648618

We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement, we gained, but seem to have largely given away in the new FTA, powers over state aid.
We've gained an independent trade policy.
Fishermen have a better share of the quota than before.

It's not all bad news.

hahah you are funny. we haven't gained anything. We never lost any of those 'powers'

You seem to have fallen for the lies.

angrysoba · 29th December 2020, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

For AngrySoba who claimed I wasn't aware of the GUARDIAN and patronisingly gave me a list of articles to read:

It was you who claimed that you hadn't read (and couldn't read!) criticism of the Brexit deal in the UK press. Why are you trying to have it both ways claiming that:

1.) there is no criticism of it in the British press
AND
2.) you read the Guardian criticism of it.

All you have to do is qualify what you said earlier instead of changing the subject to Corbyn.

Originally Posted by Vixen

It is from reading lesser read quality papers that one becomes aware of the lack of transparency, honesty, decent investigative journalism in the tabloids, and now extending to the TELEGRAPH recently. If you wish to believe the news you read in the tabloids are authentic and not carefully crafted manipulative propaganda, that is your prerogative. The discerning know better.

I don't read the tabloids.

Pixel42 · 30th December 2020, 12:42 AM

Apparently we have Rory Bremnar to thank for this not happening many years earlier.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55477424

Quote:

Honestly, who'd have thought that without a spoof phone call, a group of Eurosceptic backbenchers might have forced the prime minister to resign and taken us out of the EU. What are the chances of that?

Airfix · 30th December 2020, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

hahah you are funny. we haven't gained anything. We never lost any of those 'powers'

You seem to have fallen for the lies.

Incorrect. The only institution of the EU that is able to propose policy in the European parliament is the Commission. The public cannot lobby their MEP to propose legislation, only to amend reject or approve legislation.

The Commission aren't elected by the public, if they were I'd be a supporter, but they aren't.

If that's enough for you, that's fine. But it's not good enough for me.
And "the lies" I read, are the statements on the EU Commission website ec.europa.eu

Airfix · 30th December 2020, 02:56 AM

If you want to know something that really is funny, according to the BBC page 921 of the proposed UK EU FTA contains references to Netscape from an earlier 2008 EU law and 1024 bit RSA encryption, just copied and pasted and not checked by either side.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/technology-55475433

wobs · 30th December 2020, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Incorrect. The only institution of the EU that is able to propose policy in the European parliament is the Commission. The public cannot lobby their MEP to propose legislation, only to amend reject or approve legislation.

The Commission aren't elected by the public, if they were I'd be a supporter, but they aren't.

If that's enough for you, that's fine. But it's not good enough for me.
And "the lies" I read, are the statements on the EU Commission website ec.europa.eu

The EU is no less democratic than the UK. There are deficiences in both systems. The EU makes new laws by:

Quote:

Who really makes laws?

EU laws are agreed by two institutions: the council of ministers, comprising ministers from 28 EU governments and the European parliament. The European council, EU leaders meeting for regular late-night summits, plays an increasingly important role in setting the agenda.

(27 EU governments now obviously).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-reality-check
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...ims-democracy/
https://theconversation.com/how-demo...an-union-59419

29th December 2020, 07:16 AM	#2802
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,092	Originally Posted by Vixen Oh wow! A really hard-hitting piece in a German newspaper Der Speigel, worth reading because it sums up what has happened quite succinctly and without the faux-hurray and fake triumphancy of the SUN or the DAILY TROLL: Spiegel [google translate] This you will not read in the UK press. However, the public knows it was lied to. Trump set a new precedent in that lying, dishonesty and cheating were OK, not so bad <shrug> and like the American public, the UK public just sees it as the new norm, when once such dishonesty would have meant instant resignation or even prosecution. Who remembers the politician who lied about a hotel bill? What a scandal that was! Or the politician who appeared to be associated with a hooker? The Murdoch and Barclay Brothers papers are in control, that's why. Trump is only meeting his downfall now because Murdoch-owned New York Post is now writing horrible things about him, when it helped put Trump in power in the first place. Johnson was doing it in politics long before Trump even started campaigning.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

29th December 2020, 08:49 AM	#2803
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,397	Originally Posted by Vixen Read that. Do that daily. Then why did you claim this? Quote: This you will not read in the UK press.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

29th December 2020, 10:19 AM	#2804
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,531	And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

29th December 2020, 10:21 AM	#2805
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,886	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Odd how I have managed to read all of those things and more in the UK-ian press, heard them on the BBC (the lies over Brexit have been a staple of gags from pretty much every comedian on a topical show, even including Geoff Norcott who is in favour of Brexit). It's more relevant that most English (sic) folk just don't care. Comedy and satire doesn't count. Anyway I don't watch television.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

29th December 2020, 10:25 AM	#2806
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,886	Originally Posted by angrysoba Then why did you claim this? Come off it. Do you really believe the mass media press would be 'hailing' the deal if it had been brokered by Corbyn? No, of course not. They would be screaming for his blood and demanding he resign. Imagine a picture of Corbyn or Starmer with his feet up on the desk and constantly going AWOL. Do you really believe the SUN and the MAIL would be headlining 'Jeremy/Keir brings you a Merry Brexmas'?
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

29th December 2020, 04:56 AM	#2801
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 765	Originally Posted by Vixen Oh wow! A really hard-hitting piece in a German newspaper Der Speigel, worth reading because it sums up what has happened quite succinctly and without the faux-hurray and fake triumphancy of the SUN or the DAILY TROLL: Spiegel [google translate] This you will not read in the UK press. However, the public knows it was lied to. Trump set a new precedent in that lying, dishonesty and cheating were OK, not so bad <shrug> and like the American public, the UK public just sees it as the new norm, when once such dishonesty would have meant instant resignation or even prosecution. Who remembers the politician who lied about a hotel bill? What a scandal that was! Or the politician who appeared to be associated with a hooker? The Murdoch and Barclay Brothers papers are in control, that's why. Trump is only meeting his downfall now because Murdoch-owned New York Post is now writing horrible things about him, when it helped put Trump in power in the first place. Odd how I have managed to read all of those things and more in the UK-ian press, heard them on the BBC (the lies over Brexit have been a staple of gags from pretty much every comedian on a topical show, even including Geoff Norcott who is in favour of Brexit). It's more relevant that most English (sic) folk just don't care.

29th December 2020, 10:26 AM	#2807
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,886	Originally Posted by Darat Johnson was doing it in politics long before Trump even started campaigning. That might be true and look how the the tabloids got firmly behind him despite his total uselessness.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

29th December 2020, 10:30 AM	#2808
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,886	Originally Posted by Garrison And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence. 'Boris' has his clear 80-majority. The ERG are backing his deal. So it is not a choice of 'deal' or no-deal'. How can Starmer say he backs the deal without having even read it or debated it? If the SNP, the Greens, the DUP and the LibDems can abstain/vote against, what is the need for Starmer to apply the whip? It is a ******* awful deal and doesn't do what the DAILYMAIL/SUN says on the tin.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

29th December 2020, 10:32 AM	#2809
Guybrush Threepwood Trainee Pirate Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: An Uaimh Posts: 3,076	Originally Posted by Garrison And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence. I don't get this viewpoint. If Starmer whips labour to vote to accept it then every time he tries to pin Boris down for Brexit failure, Johnson can respond 'You voted for the deal' Far better to let a government with a landslide majority fail to deliver their flagship policy in order to win the next election.

29th December 2020, 11:30 AM	#2810
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,940	it's a done deal, the vote tomorrow is more about implementation than yes or no.

29th December 2020, 11:42 AM	#2811
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,879	Originally Posted by Vixen But they don't want anyone who can actually make a change in power. Bollocks.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

29th December 2020, 12:00 PM	#2812
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,879	I see Ryanair shareholders are losing voting rights due to Brexit....
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

29th December 2020, 12:07 PM	#2813
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 765	Originally Posted by Vixen Comedy and satire doesn't count. Anyway I don't watch television. Didn't mention TV, as I was thinking more of radio (I listen to more current affairs & news on radio).And I say satire and comedy does count, as it is still a discussion of current affairs and news.

29th December 2020, 12:46 PM	#2814
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,886	Originally Posted by catsmate Bollocks. Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn (what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???).
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

29th December 2020, 12:50 PM	#2815
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Usk, Wales Posts: 26,419	Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood I don't get this viewpoint. If Starmer whips labour to vote to accept it then every time he tries to pin Boris down for Brexit failure, Johnson can respond 'You voted for the deal' Far better to let a government with a landslide majority fail to deliver their flagship policy in order to win the next election. 'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour. Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

29th December 2020, 12:51 PM	#2816
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,886	For AngrySoba who claimed I wasn't aware of the GUARDIAN and patronisingly gave me a list of articles to read: Quote: Since you’re here ... … joining us from Finland, we have a small favour to ask. You've read 671 articles in the last year. And you’re not alone; millions are flocking to the Guardian for open, independent, quality news every day, and readers in 180 countries around the world now support us financially. We believe everyone deserves access to information that’s grounded in science and truth, and analysis rooted in authority and integrity. That’s why we made a different choice: to keep our reporting open for all readers, regardless of where they live or what they can afford to pay. It is from reading lesser read quality papers that one becomes aware of the lack of transparency, honesty, decent investigative journalism in the tabloids, and now extending to the TELEGRAPH recently. If you wish to believe the news you read in the tabloids are authentic and not carefully crafted manipulative propaganda, that is your prerogative. The discerning know better.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

29th December 2020, 12:54 PM	#2817
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,092	Originally Posted by Vixen That might be true and look how the the tabloids got firmly behind him despite his total uselessness. No might about it.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

29th December 2020, 12:58 PM	#2818
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,886	Originally Posted by GlennB 'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour. Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me. It is tricky because as an MP you have to show loyalty to the party line but on the other hand where the end vote is given then you are free to stand by your principles. For example, say one of your core values is that you are against drug dealing and you discover the Brexit deal - which was left to the eleventh hour and you only have half a day to debate it - contains a cocaine-dealing clause, then you should stick to your principles and vote against it for the person to blame for the crap deal is the person who cunningly and shiftly used sleight of hand to enforce the bummer on you. You wouldn't let your local shopkeeper shortchange you, so why would you vote for something that is against your principles?
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

29th December 2020, 01:45 PM	#2819
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Originally Posted by Garrison And of course now we are getting complaints because Starmer wants to vote for the deal. Some people really don't seem to understand that its this deal or No Deal and Starmer has no intention of lining up with the die hard Tory Brexiteers and potentially delivering a No Deal Brexit. That would basically be Boris' dream come true, a No Deal Brexit to make his chums happy and Labour as the whipping boy for every negative consequence. It is this deal or no deal. The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations. Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979

29th December 2020, 01:45 PM	#2820
Guybrush Threepwood Trainee Pirate Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: An Uaimh Posts: 3,076	Originally Posted by GlennB 'Rock and a hard place'? If Labour votes heavily against and is joined by enough Tory rebels (the latter is a big if, admittedly) then the bill fails and Johnson can point at Starmer and blame the lack of a deal, and the future consequences of that, on Labour. Voting in favour seems like the least bad option, to me. Well, it looks like there will be no rebellion now, so Labour are going to vote on the same side as Rees Mogg and the ERG. I just don't see that making them a credible opposition. Also if Johnson had failed to get his own party, with the largest majority in Parliament for a generation to pass their biggest policy commitment, he wouldn't be pointing fingers at anyone without them falling over laughing.

29th December 2020, 02:01 PM	#2821
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,015	Originally Posted by Airfix It is this deal or no deal. The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations. Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal. Four and a half years, just days to go to crashing out without a deal, and you think negotiations were sped up? What would negotiations which were being slowed down by the incompetence and intransigence of a bunch of clueless English public schoolboys have looked like?
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

29th December 2020, 02:01 PM	#2822
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,501	Originally Posted by Vixen Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn (what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal???). Same reason most of the Labour voters I know* didn't support him and I (as a Labour member) voted for Starmer. He was unelectable and yes, the media did a really unfair hatchet job on him, but he was never a leader. I know canvassers for Labour who were on peoples doorsteps trying to explain WTF "constructive ambiguity" meant to people who "expect a little more back for their taxes like school books, beds in hospitals and peace in our bloody time All they get is old men grinding axes". *skewed sample. Most of us are of an age to remember when Labour was run by people who preferred ideological purity to actually helping people.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

29th December 2020, 02:17 PM	#2823
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,879	Originally Posted by Vixen Then why did the GUARDIAN offer zero support for Corbyn int he election, and even in a Brexit critique yesterday, the author threw in a barb at Corbyn. Because Corbyn was, and is, an unelectable, imbecile, Brexiteer, redolent with the stench of lunatic anti-semitism, who cannot pass an inane, ideological bandwagon without jumping on-board. Originally Posted by Vixen what has Corbyn got to do with Johnson's deal??? Because without Corbyn's idiocy Johnson wouldn't have been elected with an unassailable majority and imposed his insane Brexit on the UK.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

29th December 2020, 02:18 PM	#2824
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	FTA negotiations didn't start until February. The previous negotiations were on the withdrawal agreement and what a mess Theresa May made of that period. And Jeremy Corbyn and Keir Starmer.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Last edited by Airfix; 29th December 2020 at 02:19 PM.

29th December 2020, 02:21 PM	#2825
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,879	Originally Posted by Airfix It is this deal or no deal. The only reason for the no deal position was to strengthen the hand of the government and speed up negotiations. Good deal or not, depends on your point of view, but the tactic has sped negotiations up, and there is a deal. Rubbish. The UK had better deals on offer. They rejected them as they were insufficiently appealing to the 'Brexit base', the racist, xenophobic, out-of-touch-with-reality Little Englanders and their imperial delusions.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

29th December 2020, 02:26 PM	#2826
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	When I visited the UK for the first time, I was horrified at the daily press. Almost no general prupose newspapers ("London TImes" is the only one I saw) the rest tabloid nonsense.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

29th December 2020, 02:28 PM	#2827
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	SO maybe pretty much alllowing the Party Bosses to decide all the major Government offices is not such a great idea? Maybe the avergae voter should have more input?
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

29th December 2020, 02:29 PM	#2828
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Originally Posted by dudalb When I visited the UK for the first time, I was horrified at the daily press. Almost no general prupose newspapers ("London TImes" is the only one I saw) the rest tabloid nonsense. There's The i, the Guardian, the Independent (now online only), regional newspapers, the Financial Times. There is a lot of tabloid nonsense though. Daily Mail is one of the worst. I dearly wish papers were required, as the BBC is, to be impartial. They shouldn't tell people how to vote, they should only be able to report the policies.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979

29th December 2020, 02:32 PM	#2829
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Originally Posted by catsmate Rubbish. The UK had better deals on offer. They rejected them as they were insufficiently appealing to the 'Brexit base', the racist, xenophobic, out-of-touch-with-reality Little Englanders and their imperial delusions. The idea that 17.41 million people are racist little Englanders, is delusional rubbish. Meanwhile, this is the proposed deal: Have a read, and judge it by it's content, rather than prejudice. I haven't read it yet. I will not judge it until I have.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979

29th December 2020, 02:46 PM	#2830
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,940	Originally Posted by Airfix The idea that 17.41 million people are racist little Englanders, is delusional rubbish. Evidence and experience tells me otherwise. Far more than 17 million to be honest.

29th December 2020, 03:02 PM	#2831
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	I didn't vote leave because of foreigners, I voted leave because of democracy and experience tells me that the only way to have democratic freedom of choice in policy areas controlled by the EU, is to not be in it. Take the railways, I would like to bring back a wholly state owned passenger railway system. But the fourth railways package requires a market for railway services. Agriculture, members of the EU have no alternative agricultural policy than the CAP, which has proved tremendously difficult to reform. If David Cameron had been able to achieve a treaty change for the reforms he'd sought, I'd have been more likely to vote remain, but he failed and acted like he'd succeeded, and staked his reputation and his career on a campaign for remain, which he lost. The campaign would probably have done better without his support. And some of the 17.4 million, voted leave, so he would resign. That's not a racist position to take. Ok, it's not a very good reason to vote leave, but some did.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979

29th December 2020, 03:05 PM	#2832
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,940	Funny how the railway systems in Europe are far more efficient and run better services cheaper than those in the UK. You think they will improve? You think that agriculture will be better now we are out of the EU? farmers disagree. What 'democratic freedom' have you gained now we have left the EU?

29th December 2020, 03:19 PM	#2833
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	And EU policy has been to change the continent's railways and create a single market for railway services. https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes...ckages/2013_en The privatisation drive on the continent has not gone without hitches. https://www.france24.com/en/20191227...-three-decades https://www.dw.com/en/german-rail-st...ays/a-46648618 We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement, we gained, but seem to have largely given away in the new FTA, powers over state aid. We've gained an independent trade policy. Fishermen have a better share of the quota than before. It's not all bad news.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 979	Last edited by Airfix; 29th December 2020 at 03:22 PM.

29th December 2020, 07:24 PM	#2834
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 6,781	Originally Posted by Airfix We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement You gloss over the fact that the UK was one of the most influential and powerful members in the EU and thus shaped said regulations themselves. The British people really have only themselves to blame if their democratically elected representatives didn't defend their interests enough.
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

29th December 2020, 07:31 PM	#2835
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,940	Originally Posted by Airfix And EU policy has been to change the continent's railways and create a single market for railway services. https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes...ckages/2013_en The privatisation drive on the continent has not gone without hitches. https://www.france24.com/en/20191227...-three-decades https://www.dw.com/en/german-rail-st...ays/a-46648618 We've gained democratic powers over industrial policy, agricultural policy, public transport, public service procurement, we gained, but seem to have largely given away in the new FTA, powers over state aid. We've gained an independent trade policy. Fishermen have a better share of the quota than before. It's not all bad news. hahah you are funny. we haven't gained anything. We never lost any of those 'powers' You seem to have fallen for the lies.