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Old 4th January 2021, 03:12 AM   #3081
Lothian
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Which makes ZERO sense. No deal hurts the UK far more than the EU so the threat of no deal would have bolstered the EU position should they choose to push the issue.
.
Despite that it remains a view amongst a large proportion of Brexiteers, at least the vocal ones on social media that we should have gone for a no deal brexit. Indeed one brexiteer here advocated that.

Many want nothing to do with the EU.
They see this deal as tying us to EU rules and regulations (they are right)

They think we can thrive if we cut off totally from the EU (they are wrong).
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:14 AM   #3082
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I still have not seen what exactly brexiteers think they have "won".
You'll likely get "sovereignty" as the reply, but push a bit and you'll not find exactly what "sovereignty" we have gained.
You might get "we stay out of the European Army" nonsense, without them being able to explain why the proposals are different to NATO.

In short, catchphrases, but little substance.
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:38 AM   #3083
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
You'll likely get "sovereignty" as the reply, but push a bit and you'll not find exactly what "sovereignty" we have gained.
You might get "we stay out of the European Army" nonsense, without them being able to explain why the proposals are different to NATO.

In short, catchphrases, but little substance.
Sovereignty. F*#£.

People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers.

Xenophobes is a better term for them.
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:21 AM   #3084
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Sovereignty. F*#£.

People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers.

Xenophobes is a better term for them.
Bloody foreigners the lot of them! They can all bugger off back to Xenoland!
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:22 AM   #3085
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Saw someone buying garlic in the local shop. I will report them of course.

Plus, this bottle of Champagne I still have. Do I throw it out or drink it and hand myself in?
i think the required procedure is-: Bottle of Champagne, revolver, one bullet, lock the study door & do the decent thing old chap. No note required, the bottle will explain everything.
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:42 AM   #3086
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David Allen Green's latest blog entry laying out the history of European supranationalization. Puncturing some of the bollocks talked. Another entry discussing "sovereignty" should be required reading.



https://davidallengreen.com/2021/01/...still-matters/


Quote:
Others will point to the 1960s caselaw of the European Court of Justice, such as the Costa v ENEL judgment of 1964 that made it as plain as a pikestaff (the lawyers’ equivalent of ‘absolutely clear’) that the domestic law of a member state was subordinate to the provisions of both the Treaty of Rome and the legal instruments made thereunder.
The United Kingdom thereby knew exactly what it was joining in 1973, and only a fool or knave could (and did) pretend otherwise.
Yet the supranational essence of what the United Kingdom joined in 1973 was older than the Costa case of 1964, and was even older than the Treaty of Rome of 1957.
.....
So when the United Kingdom joined the communities in 1973, the fact that it was joining a practical supranational enterprise had been – well – as plain as a pikestaff for over twenty years.

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Old 4th January 2021, 04:59 AM   #3087
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Saw someone buying garlic in the local shop. I will report them of course.

Plus, this bottle of Champagne I still have. Do I throw it out or drink it and hand myself in?

Go ahead and drink it.

After that you'll be throwing it out in a few hours anyway. Then you won't need to turn yourself in.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:26 AM   #3088
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Sovereignty. F*#£.

People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers.

Xenophobes is a better term for them.
Bad laws made by British governments can be easily scrapped by successor governments.

When bad laws are made by the EU tend they to stay in place as it's much harder to repeal.

Attempts to reform the CAP have successively failed due to the French government's veto.

There's nothing xenophobic about wanting public democratic accountability over the laws and policies we're governed by.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:43 AM   #3089
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Bad laws made by British governments can be easily scrapped by successor governments.

When bad laws are made by the EU tend they to stay in place as it's much harder to repeal.

Attempts to reform the CAP have successively failed due to the French government's veto.

There's nothing xenophobic about wanting public democratic accountability over the laws and policies we're governed by.
The process for changing UK law is no easier than changing EU law.

The EU is far more democratic than the UK. Everyone in the EU is there as a result of a public election, or nominated by a county's Prime minister in the same way as our cabinet members are hand picked by the same person. The UK has a wholly unelected second house.


You miss the point however that by demanding sovereignty you are putting the Who before the What.
This is not about public democratic accountability. It is all about who can make the laws that affect us.

For some strange reason Boris has focused Sovereignty on GB.
He could have gone for the UK but the Northern Irish are denied "sovereignty" and they remain under EU rules with no say in setting them.
If sovereignty is as important as you make out why should the citizens of the member countries of GB be denied sovereignty?

Why should the citizens of Kent be subject to rules voted on by Cumbrians?

Where should the power to influence decisions that affect you stop? At what point does it become undemocratic?
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:51 AM   #3090
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Only because of the newspaper that published it:

British expats refused entry to EU: Italy, Germany and Spain block residents flights home
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:53 AM   #3091
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
....snip... At what point does it become undemocratic?
When democracy gets it wrong i.e. when I donít get what I want!
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:16 AM   #3092
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In reality, a few expats were refused entry after misunderstandings about what constitutes correct documentation. It was almost bound to happen and life will go on.
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Old 4th January 2021, 08:23 AM   #3093
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More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about:

Quote:
Some specialist online retailers in various EU countries have said they will no longer deliver to UK addresses because of tax changes due to Brexit.

Bicycle part firm Dutch Bike Bits said from now on, it would ship to every country in the world except the UK.

"We are forced by British policy to stop dealing with British customers," it said on its website.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

Quote:
This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the UK are expected to register for UK VAT and account for it to HMRC if the sale value is less than €150 (£135).

"For providing this service, [HMRC] intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK," said Dutch Bike Bits on its website.
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Old 4th January 2021, 08:35 AM   #3094
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721
Doesn't sound right.

Why do they have to register if they sell items under £135 but not over? Do HMRC charge fees?

This is the first day back for most businesses. They will be trying to come to terms with the new rules. Likewise I guess HMRC found out about the deal the same time we did. They will take time to explain the new rules.

I would have thought that the net effect of all this is a slower process with a small increase in costs to cover the extra admin. The FTA should not significantly affect prices. The extra admin costs mainly on customs declarations will be hidden in postal/ delivery charges to UK addresses.
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:48 AM   #3095
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Doesn't sound right.

Why do they have to register if they sell items under £135 but not over? Do HMRC charge fees?

This is the first day back for most businesses. They will be trying to come to terms with the new rules. Likewise I guess HMRC found out about the deal the same time we did. They will take time to explain the new rules.

I would have thought that the net effect of all this is a slower process with a small increase in costs to cover the extra admin. The FTA should not significantly affect prices. The extra admin costs mainly on customs declarations will be hidden in postal/ delivery charges to UK addresses.
Looks right.... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-...mers-in-the-uk

The £135 mark seems to be the point where you are hit with import duties and VAT while under £135 you are supposed to charge UK supply VAT to the buyer.

'I would have thought' really depends on what was negotiated....
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:57 AM   #3096
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721
Cycling is going to be a lot more uncomfortable in the UK post Brexit

(Brooks saddles no longer sold in UK, even though they are still made there )

It will be fixed fairly quickly I guess, but still...
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:04 AM   #3097
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Cycling is going to be a lot more uncomfortable in the UK post Brexit

(Brooks saddles no longer sold in UK, even though they are still made there )

It will be fixed fairly quickly I guess, but still...

For the real Brexit experience, just replace the saddle with a dildo. Filled with innovative jams.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:31 AM   #3098
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Looks right.... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-...mers-in-the-uk

The £135 mark seems to be the point where you are hit with import duties and VAT while under £135 you are supposed to charge UK supply VAT to the buyer.

'I would have thought' really depends on what was negotiated....
I guess that (<£135) assumes the seller needs to register.

If they only make occasional sales <£135 to the UK then the correct VAT they need to charge at the point of sale is £0
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:15 PM   #3099
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I guess that (<£135) assumes the seller needs to register.

If they only make occasional sales <£135 to the UK then the correct VAT they need to charge at the point of sale is £0
How did you work that out?

There is no longer a VAT threshold for overseas sellers as far as I can see so VAT is due on every sale.

That being the case it seems unlikely that it would be worthwhile for a company that makes occasional sales to the UK to bother with having to submit quarterly UK VAT returns.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:52 PM   #3100
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Sovereignty. F*#£.

People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers.

Xenophobes is a better term for them.
It's the term Dad's been using since 2016.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:57 PM   #3101
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
How did you work that out?

There is no longer a VAT threshold for overseas sellers as far as I can see so VAT is due on every sale.

That being the case it seems unlikely that it would be worthwhile for a company that makes occasional sales to the UK to bother with having to submit quarterly UK VAT returns.
A zero registration threshold would be a big barrier to trade. Not a good move imo and against the Government's objective of keeping trade flowing.

Last edited by Lothian; 4th January 2021 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:20 PM   #3102
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
A zero registration threshold would be a big barrier to trade. Not a good move imo and against the Government's objective of keeping trade flowing.
That's exactly what they have done though.

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/e...hresholds.html

Confirmed in the last line of that table. Anyone distance selling into the UK must register for VAT.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:43 PM   #3103
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The process for changing UK law is no easier than changing EU law.
Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change. The Lords can suggest amendments and even reject the bill, but the Parliaments act can overrule them.

The process for changing EU law requires the Commission to propose an alternative, MEPs and also the Council to approve by Qualified Majority Vote. And even then there's the chaos of what can happen if there's a veto by a member of the Council of Ministers.
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:03 PM   #3104
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change. The Lords can suggest amendments and even reject the bill, but the Parliaments act can overrule them.

The process for changing EU law requires the Commission to propose an alternative, MEPs and also the Council to approve by Qualified Majority Vote. And even then there's the chaos of what can happen if there's a veto by a member of the Council of Ministers.
MPs of one country? So Welsh MPs can change UK law?

The EU approves on average 80 directives a year compared to 33 acts of the UK parliament per year.
No evidence that it is harder or more complicated in the EU.

You missed the key questions in my post. At what point does sovereignty stop?
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:48 PM   #3105
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New VAT rules apply to countries outside the EU too, they will all have to register for UK vat. Plus there is the loss of the £15 exemption for import duty.
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:58 PM   #3106
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And so the predicted apocalypse begins - it's more difficult to buy spare parts for your bicycle now.

Joking aside, the rule seems ridiculous. Why should companies in the USA, India, China, that sell the occasional small item to someone in the UK, need to register for UK VAT collection? And what does the UK think it can do if the company just ignores the rule and sends the parcel anyway?

If every country implemented such rules then it would make international trade a nightmare: "We've just sold one of our T-shirts to a guy in Bengal. Does anyone know how to register for paying tax there? Who speaks Benagli?"

Surely it's better to just do what non-EU countries have been doing for years already. Don't charge any sales tax (or sellers often still charge the sales tax for their own country if they just sell the occasional item overseas and can't be bothered repricing). Then it's up to UK customs to intercept the parcels and charge the receiver VAT and import duty. Sometimes they do this, often they can't be bothered for smaller cheaper items and you, as the buyer, get away without paying the extra charge.

Companies that sell loads of stuff to the UK probably wouldn't mind registering, so that they could offer their UK customers a cheaper faster service with the customer not running the risk of being hit with extra customs and handling charges - this is going one (very small) step towards setting up a UK-based daughter company to handle your sales there. And of course, companies that sell tons of stuff into the UK will already have UK-based distribution agents, or UK distribution offices of their own.

Last edited by ceptimus; 4th January 2021 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:10 PM   #3107
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Which makes ZERO sense. No deal hurts the UK far more than the EU so the threat of no deal would have bolstered the EU position should they choose to push the issue.
But it superficially appeared "tough" to the dumber, flag waving, anti-foreigner type of Brexiteer hence the Bouffant Buffoon's games.


Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
As expected the EU didn't compromise on any of it's standards, nor would it have benefited people in the UK if it had. These are consumer and labor standards that Right wing politicians have been looking to strip away for years. Brexit means they are free to do so, just not on anything sold to the EU.
That's something that most Brexiteers simply can't accept.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:19 PM   #3108
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
And so the predicted apocalypse begins - it's more difficult to buy spare parts for your bicycle now.

Joking aside, the rule seems ridiculous. Why should companies in the USA, India, China, that sell the occasional small item to someone in the UK, need to register for UK VAT collection? And what does the UK think it can do if the company just ignores the rule and sends the parcel anyway?

If every country implemented such rules then it would make international trade a nightmare: "We've just sold one of our T-shirts to a guy in Bengal. Does anyone know how to register for paying tax there? Who speaks Benagli?"

Surely it's better to just do what non-EU countries have been doing for years already. Don't charge any sales tax (or sellers often still charge the sales tax for their own country if they just sell the occasional item overseas and can't be bothered repricing). Then it's up to UK customs to intercept the parcels and charge the receiver VAT and import duty. Sometimes they do this, often they can't be bothered for smaller cheaper items and you, as the buyer, get away without paying the extra charge.

Companies that sell loads of stuff to the UK probably wouldn't mind registering, so that they could offer their UK customers a cheaper faster service with the customer not running the risk of being hit with extra customs and handling charges - this is going one (very small) step towards setting up a UK-based daughter company to handle your sales there. And of course, companies that sell tons of stuff into the UK will already have UK-based distribution agents, or UK distribution offices of their own.
So you think we should operate as the Europeans do. Why so you hate UK sovereignty? Typical remainer always whining about how things were better.before we got freedom.

Seriously I suspect this is because brexit has and will continue to cost us so much money we are squeezing the pips to minimise the inevitable tax rise.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:04 PM   #3109
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
So you think we should operate as the Europeans do.
No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?

Last edited by ceptimus; 4th January 2021 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 5th January 2021, 01:25 AM   #3110
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?
Speaking of Aliexpress......

Over the last year I've bought a number of items from Aliexpress, mostly cycling clothing but also a cover for my BBQ, some kitchen tongs and so on.

Yesterday I had a floor light arrive and the UPS delivery person demanded £23 in customs duty. I've never ordered anything more expensive than £30 in the past (this was £80+) so maybe no customs duty was due in the past, but if this is an indication of the post-Brexit retail landscape, Aliexpress will be in trouble IMO.
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Old 5th January 2021, 01:26 AM   #3111
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?
.....and in some of those countries, the recipient would have customs duty to day on arrival (we had this early on with my in-laws sending presents until they learned first to lie about the value and eventually to order from UK-based suppliers instead).
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Old 5th January 2021, 03:54 AM   #3112
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Marking it as a 'commercial sample' is always helpful too.
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Old 5th January 2021, 04:14 AM   #3113
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Speaking of Aliexpress......

Over the last year I've bought a number of items from Aliexpress, mostly cycling clothing but also a cover for my BBQ, some kitchen tongs and so on.

Yesterday I had a floor light arrive and the UPS delivery person demanded £23 in customs duty. I've never ordered anything more expensive than £30 in the past (this was £80+) so maybe no customs duty was due in the past, but if this is an indication of the post-Brexit retail landscape, Aliexpress will be in trouble IMO.
Just had UPS turn up asking for £88 for some items from Holland that cost less than that to buy. I recall EU membership cost each person about £92 a year so the misses has only £4 left for the remaining 360 days.
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Old 5th January 2021, 05:25 AM   #3114
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
.....and in some of those countries, the recipient would have customs duty to day on arrival (we had this early on with my in-laws sending presents until they learned first to lie about the value and eventually to order from UK-based suppliers instead).
You also have to pay a handling charge.... We ordered an item from China and the vat was a few quid (fair enough) but Royal Mail slapped on an £8 handling charge for having to work out the VAT. That was an Amazon reseller and it wasn't clear that VAT would be charged but, as I say, no biggie, it was the handling charge that blew my mind.

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Old 5th January 2021, 06:51 AM   #3115
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change.
That cuts both ways. It makes it easier for bad laws to be made in the first place and easier for a mobilized minority to keep bad laws in place.

The people pushing Brexit the hardest also favor a LOT of bad laws the general public doesn't support and the EU won't allow. They want an easier environment to make and keep these bad laws much like Republicans in the US have done in the US. If fact most of them want the UK to simply adopt whatever laws the far right in the US tell them to adopt. It's not about Sovereignty it's about making the UK into a vassal state of the US.
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:58 AM   #3116
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Marking it as a 'commercial sample' is always helpful too.
Ah the good old british traditions of smuggling are coming back I see. Quick start digging proper smuggling tunnels.
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:58 AM   #3117
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post

Joking aside, the rule seems ridiculous. Why should companies in the USA, India, China, that sell the occasional small item to someone in the UK, need to register for UK VAT collection? And what does the UK think it can do if the company just ignores the rule and sends the parcel anyway?

If every country implemented such rules then it would make international trade a nightmare: "We've just sold one of our T-shirts to a guy in Bengal. Does anyone know how to register for paying tax there? Who speaks Benagli?"
This is more or less how most of the world works. If it isnít VAT or Sales Tax itís other barriers. While there are some cross border sales in the rest of the world, the system you are accustomed to where you can readily and regularly get items from other countries was a function of being in the EU with a common system of product standards and commerce rules.
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Old 5th January 2021, 07:08 AM   #3118
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This is more or less how most of the world works. If it isnít VAT or Sales Tax itís other barriers. While there are some cross border sales in the rest of the world, the system you are accustomed to where you can readily and regularly get items from other countries was a function of being in the EU with a common system of product standards and commerce rules.
And the EU has specific trade deals with many countries that we in the UK benefited from but now we donít.

Plus because the EU is such a large single trading block it is often advantageous for a company to have a ďlocalĒ office somewhere in the EU that handles customer sales in the EU so that the amount of red tape is massively reduced.

The UK has now lost the benefit of all those arrangements.
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Old 5th January 2021, 07:13 AM   #3119
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And we in the UK still have to abide with the terms of a completely undemocratic organisation that we as UK voters have no say in or ability to change anything i.e. the WTO, which can make judgements against the UK and fine the UK.

So if it mattered that there was a “democratic deficit ” whilst we were in the EU, why doesn’t it matter we have an even greater one with the WTO?

One suspects this inconsistency may indicate the democratic deficit was not such an important part of many peoples’ decision.
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Old 5th January 2021, 07:22 AM   #3120
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?
I wouldn't use Brazil as an example.

Extortionate import fees and duties, long waits in the post office depot while they check and process it and a 50/50 chance of the contents being stolen before they arrive.

I guess these changes have been requested by UK online sellers trying to compete with cheap imports from China and the like? I hadn't realised until yesterday that the exemption for imports under £15 had been removed. That's going to make it pretty much impossible to import low value items efficiently
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