[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? The Perfect 10. - Page 78

Lothian · 4th January 2021, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Which makes ZERO sense. No deal hurts the UK far more than the EU so the threat of no deal would have bolstered the EU position should they choose to push the issue.
.

Despite that it remains a view amongst a large proportion of Brexiteers, at least the vocal ones on social media that we should have gone for a no deal brexit. Indeed one brexiteer here advocated that.

Many want nothing to do with the EU.
They see this deal as tying us to EU rules and regulations (they are right)

They think we can thrive if we cut off totally from the EU (they are wrong).

Tolls · 4th January 2021, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by abaddon

I still have not seen what exactly brexiteers think they have "won".

You'll likely get "sovereignty" as the reply, but push a bit and you'll not find exactly what "sovereignty" we have gained.
You might get "we stay out of the European Army" nonsense, without them being able to explain why the proposals are different to NATO.

In short, catchphrases, but little substance.

Lothian · 4th January 2021, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

You'll likely get "sovereignty" as the reply, but push a bit and you'll not find exactly what "sovereignty" we have gained.
You might get "we stay out of the European Army" nonsense, without them being able to explain why the proposals are different to NATO.

In short, catchphrases, but little substance.

Sovereignty. F*#£.

People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers.

Xenophobes is a better term for them.

Darat · 4th January 2021, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Sovereignty. F*#£.

People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers.

Xenophobes is a better term for them.

Bloody foreigners the lot of them! They can all bugger off back to Xenoland!

P.J. Denyer · 4th January 2021, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Saw someone buying garlic in the local shop. I will report them of course.

Plus, this bottle of Champagne I still have. Do I throw it out or drink it and hand myself in?

i think the required procedure is-: Bottle of Champagne, revolver, one bullet, lock the study door & do the decent thing old chap. No note required, the bottle will explain everything.

Wudang · 4th January 2021, 04:42 AM

David Allen Green's latest blog entry laying out the history of European supranationalization. Puncturing some of the bollocks talked. Another entry discussing "sovereignty" should be required reading.

https://davidallengreen.com/2021/01/...still-matters/

Quote:

Others will point to the 1960s caselaw of the European Court of Justice, such as the Costa v ENEL judgment of 1964 that made it as plain as a pikestaff (the lawyers’ equivalent of ‘absolutely clear’) that the domestic law of a member state was subordinate to the provisions of both the Treaty of Rome and the legal instruments made thereunder.
The United Kingdom thereby knew exactly what it was joining in 1973, and only a fool or knave could (and did) pretend otherwise.
Yet the supranational essence of what the United Kingdom joined in 1973 was older than the Costa case of 1964, and was even older than the Treaty of Rome of 1957.
.....
So when the United Kingdom joined the communities in 1973, the fact that it was joining a practical supranational enterprise had been – well – as plain as a pikestaff for over twenty years.

quadraginta · 4th January 2021, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Saw someone buying garlic in the local shop. I will report them of course.

Plus, this bottle of Champagne I still have. Do I throw it out or drink it and hand myself in?

Go ahead and drink it.

After that you'll be throwing it out in a few hours anyway. Then you won't need to turn yourself in.

Airfix · 4th January 2021, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Sovereignty. F*#£.

People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers.

Xenophobes is a better term for them.

Bad laws made by British governments can be easily scrapped by successor governments.

When bad laws are made by the EU tend they to stay in place as it's much harder to repeal.

Attempts to reform the CAP have successively failed due to the French government's veto.

There's nothing xenophobic about wanting public democratic accountability over the laws and policies we're governed by.

Lothian · 4th January 2021, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Bad laws made by British governments can be easily scrapped by successor governments.

When bad laws are made by the EU tend they to stay in place as it's much harder to repeal.

Attempts to reform the CAP have successively failed due to the French government's veto.

There's nothing xenophobic about wanting public democratic accountability over the laws and policies we're governed by.

The process for changing UK law is no easier than changing EU law.

The EU is far more democratic than the UK. Everyone in the EU is there as a result of a public election, or nominated by a county's Prime minister in the same way as our cabinet members are hand picked by the same person. The UK has a wholly unelected second house.

You miss the point however that by demanding sovereignty you are putting the Who before the What.
This is not about public democratic accountability. It is all about who can make the laws that affect us.

For some strange reason Boris has focused Sovereignty on GB.
He could have gone for the UK but the Northern Irish are denied "sovereignty" and they remain under EU rules with no say in setting them.
If sovereignty is as important as you make out why should the citizens of the member countries of GB be denied sovereignty?

Why should the citizens of Kent be subject to rules voted on by Cumbrians?

Where should the power to influence decisions that affect you stop? At what point does it become undemocratic?

Darat · 4th January 2021, 05:51 AM

Only because of the newspaper that published it:

British expats refused entry to EU: Italy, Germany and Spain block residents flights home

Darat · 4th January 2021, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

....snip... At what point does it become undemocratic?

When democracy gets it wrong i.e. when I don’t get what I want!

GlennB · 4th January 2021, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Only because of the newspaper that published it:

British expats refused entry to EU: Italy, Germany and Spain block residents flights home

In reality, a few expats were refused entry after misunderstandings about what constitutes correct documentation. It was almost bound to happen and life will go on.

The Don · 4th January 2021, 08:23 AM

More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about:

Quote:

Some specialist online retailers in various EU countries have said they will no longer deliver to UK addresses because of tax changes due to Brexit.

Bicycle part firm Dutch Bike Bits said from now on, it would ship to every country in the world except the UK.

"We are forced by British policy to stop dealing with British customers," it said on its website.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

Quote:

This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the UK are expected to register for UK VAT and account for it to HMRC if the sale value is less than €150 (£135).

"For providing this service, [HMRC] intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK," said Dutch Bike Bits on its website.

Lothian · 4th January 2021, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

Doesn't sound right.

Why do they have to register if they sell items under £135 but not over? Do HMRC charge fees?

This is the first day back for most businesses. They will be trying to come to terms with the new rules. Likewise I guess HMRC found out about the deal the same time we did. They will take time to explain the new rules.

I would have thought that the net effect of all this is a slower process with a small increase in costs to cover the extra admin. The FTA should not significantly affect prices. The extra admin costs mainly on customs declarations will be hidden in postal/ delivery charges to UK addresses.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 4th January 2021, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Doesn't sound right.

Why do they have to register if they sell items under £135 but not over? Do HMRC charge fees?

This is the first day back for most businesses. They will be trying to come to terms with the new rules. Likewise I guess HMRC found out about the deal the same time we did. They will take time to explain the new rules.

I would have thought that the net effect of all this is a slower process with a small increase in costs to cover the extra admin. The FTA should not significantly affect prices. The extra admin costs mainly on customs declarations will be hidden in postal/ delivery charges to UK addresses.

Looks right.... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-...mers-in-the-uk

The £135 mark seems to be the point where you are hit with import duties and VAT while under £135 you are supposed to charge UK supply VAT to the buyer.

'I would have thought' really depends on what was negotiated....

Guybrush Threepwood · 4th January 2021, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

Cycling is going to be a lot more uncomfortable in the UK post Brexit

(Brooks saddles no longer sold in UK, even though they are still made there

)

It will be fixed fairly quickly I guess, but still...

Wudang · 4th January 2021, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Cycling is going to be a lot more uncomfortable in the UK post Brexit

(Brooks saddles no longer sold in UK, even though they are still made there

)

It will be fixed fairly quickly I guess, but still...

For the real Brexit experience, just replace the saddle with a dildo. Filled with innovative jams.

Lothian · 4th January 2021, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Looks right.... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-...mers-in-the-uk

The £135 mark seems to be the point where you are hit with import duties and VAT while under £135 you are supposed to charge UK supply VAT to the buyer.

'I would have thought' really depends on what was negotiated....

I guess that (<£135) assumes the seller needs to register.

If they only make occasional sales <£135 to the UK then the correct VAT they need to charge at the point of sale is £0

Archie Gemmill Goal · 4th January 2021, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I guess that (<£135) assumes the seller needs to register.

If they only make occasional sales <£135 to the UK then the correct VAT they need to charge at the point of sale is £0

How did you work that out?

There is no longer a VAT threshold for overseas sellers as far as I can see so VAT is due on every sale.

That being the case it seems unlikely that it would be worthwhile for a company that makes occasional sales to the UK to bother with having to submit quarterly UK VAT returns.

jimbob · 4th January 2021, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Sovereignty. F*#£.

People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers.

Xenophobes is a better term for them.

It's the term Dad's been using since 2016.

Lothian · 4th January 2021, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

How did you work that out?

There is no longer a VAT threshold for overseas sellers as far as I can see so VAT is due on every sale.

That being the case it seems unlikely that it would be worthwhile for a company that makes occasional sales to the UK to bother with having to submit quarterly UK VAT returns.

A zero registration threshold would be a big barrier to trade. Not a good move imo and against the Government's objective of keeping trade flowing.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 4th January 2021, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lothian

A zero registration threshold would be a big barrier to trade. Not a good move imo and against the Government's objective of keeping trade flowing.

That's exactly what they have done though.

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/e...hresholds.html

Confirmed in the last line of that table. Anyone distance selling into the UK must register for VAT.

Airfix · 4th January 2021, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Lothian

The process for changing UK law is no easier than changing EU law.

Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change. The Lords can suggest amendments and even reject the bill, but the Parliaments act can overrule them.

The process for changing EU law requires the Commission to propose an alternative, MEPs and also the Council to approve by Qualified Majority Vote. And even then there's the chaos of what can happen if there's a veto by a member of the Council of Ministers.

Lothian · 4th January 2021, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change. The Lords can suggest amendments and even reject the bill, but the Parliaments act can overrule them.

The process for changing EU law requires the Commission to propose an alternative, MEPs and also the Council to approve by Qualified Majority Vote. And even then there's the chaos of what can happen if there's a veto by a member of the Council of Ministers.

MPs of one country? So Welsh MPs can change UK law?

The EU approves on average 80 directives a year compared to 33 acts of the UK parliament per year.
No evidence that it is harder or more complicated in the EU.

You missed the key questions in my post. At what point does sovereignty stop?

Captain_Swoop · 4th January 2021, 03:48 PM

New VAT rules apply to countries outside the EU too, they will all have to register for UK vat. Plus there is the loss of the £15 exemption for import duty.

ceptimus · 4th January 2021, 03:58 PM

And so the predicted apocalypse begins - it's more difficult to buy spare parts for your bicycle now.

Joking aside, the rule seems ridiculous. Why should companies in the USA, India, China, that sell the occasional small item to someone in the UK, need to register for UK VAT collection? And what does the UK think it can do if the company just ignores the rule and sends the parcel anyway?

If every country implemented such rules then it would make international trade a nightmare: "We've just sold one of our T-shirts to a guy in Bengal. Does anyone know how to register for paying tax there? Who speaks Benagli?"

Surely it's better to just do what non-EU countries have been doing for years already. Don't charge any sales tax (or sellers often still charge the sales tax for their own country if they just sell the occasional item overseas and can't be bothered repricing). Then it's up to UK customs to intercept the parcels and charge the receiver VAT and import duty. Sometimes they do this, often they can't be bothered for smaller cheaper items and you, as the buyer, get away without paying the extra charge.

Companies that sell loads of stuff to the UK probably wouldn't mind registering, so that they could offer their UK customers a cheaper faster service with the customer not running the risk of being hit with extra customs and handling charges - this is going one (very small) step towards setting up a UK-based daughter company to handle your sales there. And of course, companies that sell tons of stuff into the UK will already have UK-based distribution agents, or UK distribution offices of their own.

catsmate · 4th January 2021, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Which makes ZERO sense. No deal hurts the UK far more than the EU so the threat of no deal would have bolstered the EU position should they choose to push the issue.

But it superficially appeared "tough" to the dumber, flag waving, anti-foreigner type of Brexiteer hence the Bouffant Buffoon's games.

Originally Posted by lomiller

As expected the EU didn't compromise on any of it's standards, nor would it have benefited people in the UK if it had. These are consumer and labor standards that Right wing politicians have been looking to strip away for years. Brexit means they are free to do so, just not on anything sold to the EU.

That's something that most Brexiteers simply can't accept.

Lothian · 4th January 2021, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

And so the predicted apocalypse begins - it's more difficult to buy spare parts for your bicycle now.

Joking aside, the rule seems ridiculous. Why should companies in the USA, India, China, that sell the occasional small item to someone in the UK, need to register for UK VAT collection? And what does the UK think it can do if the company just ignores the rule and sends the parcel anyway?

If every country implemented such rules then it would make international trade a nightmare: "We've just sold one of our T-shirts to a guy in Bengal. Does anyone know how to register for paying tax there? Who speaks Benagli?"

Surely it's better to just do what non-EU countries have been doing for years already. Don't charge any sales tax (or sellers often still charge the sales tax for their own country if they just sell the occasional item overseas and can't be bothered repricing). Then it's up to UK customs to intercept the parcels and charge the receiver VAT and import duty. Sometimes they do this, often they can't be bothered for smaller cheaper items and you, as the buyer, get away without paying the extra charge.

Companies that sell loads of stuff to the UK probably wouldn't mind registering, so that they could offer their UK customers a cheaper faster service with the customer not running the risk of being hit with extra customs and handling charges - this is going one (very small) step towards setting up a UK-based daughter company to handle your sales there. And of course, companies that sell tons of stuff into the UK will already have UK-based distribution agents, or UK distribution offices of their own.

So you think we should operate as the Europeans do. Why so you hate UK sovereignty? Typical remainer always whining about how things were better.before we got freedom.

Seriously I suspect this is because brexit has and will continue to cost us so much money we are squeezing the pips to minimise the inevitable tax rise.

ceptimus · 4th January 2021, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Lothian

So you think we should operate as the Europeans do.

No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?

The Don · 5th January 2021, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?

Speaking of Aliexpress......

Over the last year I've bought a number of items from Aliexpress, mostly cycling clothing but also a cover for my BBQ, some kitchen tongs and so on.

Yesterday I had a floor light arrive and the UPS delivery person demanded £23 in customs duty. I've never ordered anything more expensive than £30 in the past (this was £80+) so maybe no customs duty was due in the past, but if this is an indication of the post-Brexit retail landscape, Aliexpress will be in trouble IMO.

The Don · 5th January 2021, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?

.....and in some of those countries, the recipient would have customs duty to day on arrival (we had this early on with my in-laws sending presents until they learned first to lie about the value and eventually to order from UK-based suppliers instead).

Captain_Swoop · 5th January 2021, 03:54 AM

Marking it as a 'commercial sample' is always helpful too.

Lothian · 5th January 2021, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Speaking of Aliexpress......

Over the last year I've bought a number of items from Aliexpress, mostly cycling clothing but also a cover for my BBQ, some kitchen tongs and so on.

Yesterday I had a floor light arrive and the UPS delivery person demanded £23 in customs duty. I've never ordered anything more expensive than £30 in the past (this was £80+) so maybe no customs duty was due in the past, but if this is an indication of the post-Brexit retail landscape, Aliexpress will be in trouble IMO.

Just had UPS turn up asking for £88 for some items from Holland that cost less than that to buy. I recall EU membership cost each person about £92 a year so the misses has only £4 left for the remaining 360 days.

Ethan Thane Athen · 5th January 2021, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

.....and in some of those countries, the recipient would have customs duty to day on arrival (we had this early on with my in-laws sending presents until they learned first to lie about the value and eventually to order from UK-based suppliers instead).

You also have to pay a handling charge.... We ordered an item from China and the vat was a few quid (fair enough) but Royal Mail slapped on an £8 handling charge for having to work out the VAT. That was an Amazon reseller and it wasn't clear that VAT would be charged but, as I say, no biggie, it was the handling charge that blew my mind.

lomiller · 5th January 2021, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change.

That cuts both ways. It makes it easier for bad laws to be made in the first place and easier for a mobilized minority to keep bad laws in place.

The people pushing Brexit the hardest also favor a LOT of bad laws the general public doesn't support and the EU won't allow. They want an easier environment to make and keep these bad laws much like Republicans in the US have done in the US. If fact most of them want the UK to simply adopt whatever laws the far right in the US tell them to adopt. It's not about Sovereignty it's about making the UK into a vassal state of the US.

ponderingturtle · 5th January 2021, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Marking it as a 'commercial sample' is always helpful too.

Ah the good old british traditions of smuggling are coming back I see. Quick start digging proper smuggling tunnels.

lomiller · 5th January 2021, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Joking aside, the rule seems ridiculous. Why should companies in the USA, India, China, that sell the occasional small item to someone in the UK, need to register for UK VAT collection? And what does the UK think it can do if the company just ignores the rule and sends the parcel anyway?

If every country implemented such rules then it would make international trade a nightmare: "We've just sold one of our T-shirts to a guy in Bengal. Does anyone know how to register for paying tax there? Who speaks Benagli?"

This is more or less how most of the world works. If it isn’t VAT or Sales Tax it’s other barriers. While there are some cross border sales in the rest of the world, the system you are accustomed to where you can readily and regularly get items from other countries was a function of being in the EU with a common system of product standards and commerce rules.

Darat · 5th January 2021, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

This is more or less how most of the world works. If it isn’t VAT or Sales Tax it’s other barriers. While there are some cross border sales in the rest of the world, the system you are accustomed to where you can readily and regularly get items from other countries was a function of being in the EU with a common system of product standards and commerce rules.

And the EU has specific trade deals with many countries that we in the UK benefited from but now we don’t.

Plus because the EU is such a large single trading block it is often advantageous for a company to have a “local” office somewhere in the EU that handles customer sales in the EU so that the amount of red tape is massively reduced.

The UK has now lost the benefit of all those arrangements.

Darat · 5th January 2021, 07:13 AM

And we in the UK still have to abide with the terms of a completely undemocratic organisation that we as UK voters have no say in or ability to change anything i.e. the WTO, which can make judgements against the UK and fine the UK.

So if it mattered that there was a “democratic deficit ” whilst we were in the EU, why doesn’t it matter we have an even greater one with the WTO?

One suspects this inconsistency may indicate the democratic deficit was not such an important part of many peoples’ decision.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 5th January 2021, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?

I wouldn't use Brazil as an example.

Extortionate import fees and duties, long waits in the post office depot while they check and process it and a 50/50 chance of the contents being stolen before they arrive.

I guess these changes have been requested by UK online sellers trying to compete with cheap imports from China and the like? I hadn't realised until yesterday that the exemption for imports under £15 had been removed. That's going to make it pretty much impossible to import low value items efficiently

4th January 2021, 04:21 AM	#3084
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,071	Originally Posted by Lothian Sovereignty. F*#£. People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers. Xenophobes is a better term for them. Bloody foreigners the lot of them! They can all bugger off back to Xenoland!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

4th January 2021, 04:22 AM	#3085
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,854	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Saw someone buying garlic in the local shop. I will report them of course. Plus, this bottle of Champagne I still have. Do I throw it out or drink it and hand myself in? i think the required procedure is-: Bottle of Champagne, revolver, one bullet, lock the study door & do the decent thing old chap. No note required, the bottle will explain everything.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,854	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

4th January 2021, 04:42 AM	#3086
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,496	David Allen Green's latest blog entry laying out the history of European supranationalization. Puncturing some of the bollocks talked. Another entry discussing "sovereignty" should be required reading. https://davidallengreen.com/2021/01/...still-matters/ Quote: Others will point to the 1960s caselaw of the European Court of Justice, such as the Costa v ENEL judgment of 1964 that made it as plain as a pikestaff (the lawyers’ equivalent of ‘absolutely clear’) that the domestic law of a member state was subordinate to the provisions of both the Treaty of Rome and the legal instruments made thereunder. The United Kingdom thereby knew exactly what it was joining in 1973, and only a fool or knave could (and did) pretend otherwise. Yet the supranational essence of what the United Kingdom joined in 1973 was older than the Costa case of 1964, and was even older than the Treaty of Rome of 1957. ..... So when the United Kingdom joined the communities in 1973, the fact that it was joining a practical supranational enterprise had been – well – as plain as a pikestaff for over twenty years.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott. Last edited by Wudang; 4th January 2021 at 05:04 AM.

4th January 2021, 04:59 AM	#3087
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Saw someone buying garlic in the local shop. I will report them of course. Plus, this bottle of Champagne I still have. Do I throw it out or drink it and hand myself in? Go ahead and drink it. After that you'll be throwing it out in a few hours anyway. Then you won't need to turn yourself in.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

4th January 2021, 05:26 AM	#3088
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 977	Originally Posted by Lothian Sovereignty. F*#£. People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers. Xenophobes is a better term for them. Bad laws made by British governments can be easily scrapped by successor governments. When bad laws are made by the EU tend they to stay in place as it's much harder to repeal. Attempts to reform the CAP have successively failed due to the French government's veto. There's nothing xenophobic about wanting public democratic accountability over the laws and policies we're governed by.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 977

4th January 2021, 03:12 AM	#3081
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by lomiller Which makes ZERO sense. No deal hurts the UK far more than the EU so the threat of no deal would have bolstered the EU position should they choose to push the issue. . Despite that it remains a view amongst a large proportion of Brexiteers, at least the vocal ones on social media that we should have gone for a no deal brexit. Indeed one brexiteer here advocated that. Many want nothing to do with the EU. They see this deal as tying us to EU rules and regulations (they are right) They think we can thrive if we cut off totally from the EU (they are wrong).

4th January 2021, 03:14 AM	#3082
Tolls Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,229	Originally Posted by abaddon I still have not seen what exactly brexiteers think they have "won". You'll likely get "sovereignty" as the reply, but push a bit and you'll not find exactly what "sovereignty" we have gained. You might get "we stay out of the European Army" nonsense, without them being able to explain why the proposals are different to NATO. In short, catchphrases, but little substance.

4th January 2021, 03:38 AM	#3083
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by Tolls You'll likely get "sovereignty" as the reply, but push a bit and you'll not find exactly what "sovereignty" we have gained. You might get "we stay out of the European Army" nonsense, without them being able to explain why the proposals are different to NATO. In short, catchphrases, but little substance. Sovereignty. F*#£. People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers. Xenophobes is a better term for them.

4th January 2021, 05:43 AM	#3089
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by Airfix Bad laws made by British governments can be easily scrapped by successor governments. When bad laws are made by the EU tend they to stay in place as it's much harder to repeal. Attempts to reform the CAP have successively failed due to the French government's veto. There's nothing xenophobic about wanting public democratic accountability over the laws and policies we're governed by. The process for changing UK law is no easier than changing EU law. The EU is far more democratic than the UK. Everyone in the EU is there as a result of a public election, or nominated by a county's Prime minister in the same way as our cabinet members are hand picked by the same person. The UK has a wholly unelected second house. You miss the point however that by demanding sovereignty you are putting the Who before the What. This is not about public democratic accountability. It is all about who can make the laws that affect us. For some strange reason Boris has focused Sovereignty on GB. He could have gone for the UK but the Northern Irish are denied "sovereignty" and they remain under EU rules with no say in setting them. If sovereignty is as important as you make out why should the citizens of the member countries of GB be denied sovereignty? Why should the citizens of Kent be subject to rules voted on by Cumbrians? Where should the power to influence decisions that affect you stop? At what point does it become undemocratic?

4th January 2021, 05:51 AM	#3090
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,071	Only because of the newspaper that published it: British expats refused entry to EU: Italy, Germany and Spain block residents flights home
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

4th January 2021, 05:53 AM	#3091
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,071	Originally Posted by Lothian ....snip... At what point does it become undemocratic? When democracy gets it wrong i.e. when I don’t get what I want!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

4th January 2021, 06:16 AM	#3092
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Usk, Wales Posts: 26,418	Originally Posted by Darat Only because of the newspaper that published it: British expats refused entry to EU: Italy, Germany and Spain block residents flights home In reality, a few expats were refused entry after misunderstandings about what constitutes correct documentation. It was almost bound to happen and life will go on.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

4th January 2021, 08:23 AM	#3093
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,361	More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about: Quote: Some specialist online retailers in various EU countries have said they will no longer deliver to UK addresses because of tax changes due to Brexit. Bicycle part firm Dutch Bike Bits said from now on, it would ship to every country in the world except the UK. "We are forced by British policy to stop dealing with British customers," it said on its website. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721 Quote: This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the UK are expected to register for UK VAT and account for it to HMRC if the sale value is less than €150 (£135). "For providing this service, [HMRC] intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK," said Dutch Bike Bits on its website.

4th January 2021, 08:35 AM	#3094
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by The Don More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721 Doesn't sound right. Why do they have to register if they sell items under £135 but not over? Do HMRC charge fees? This is the first day back for most businesses. They will be trying to come to terms with the new rules. Likewise I guess HMRC found out about the deal the same time we did. They will take time to explain the new rules. I would have thought that the net effect of all this is a slower process with a small increase in costs to cover the extra admin. The FTA should not significantly affect prices. The extra admin costs mainly on customs declarations will be hidden in postal/ delivery charges to UK addresses.

4th January 2021, 10:48 AM	#3095
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	Originally Posted by Lothian Doesn't sound right. Why do they have to register if they sell items under £135 but not over? Do HMRC charge fees? This is the first day back for most businesses. They will be trying to come to terms with the new rules. Likewise I guess HMRC found out about the deal the same time we did. They will take time to explain the new rules. I would have thought that the net effect of all this is a slower process with a small increase in costs to cover the extra admin. The FTA should not significantly affect prices. The extra admin costs mainly on customs declarations will be hidden in postal/ delivery charges to UK addresses. Looks right.... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-...mers-in-the-uk The £135 mark seems to be the point where you are hit with import duties and VAT while under £135 you are supposed to charge UK supply VAT to the buyer. 'I would have thought' really depends on what was negotiated....
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

4th January 2021, 10:57 AM	#3096
Guybrush Threepwood Trainee Pirate Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: An Uaimh Posts: 3,076	Originally Posted by The Don More on the kind of snags that Captain Swoop is talking about: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721 Cycling is going to be a lot more uncomfortable in the UK post Brexit (Brooks saddles no longer sold in UK, even though they are still made there ) It will be fixed fairly quickly I guess, but still...

4th January 2021, 11:04 AM	#3097
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,496	Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood Cycling is going to be a lot more uncomfortable in the UK post Brexit (Brooks saddles no longer sold in UK, even though they are still made there ) It will be fixed fairly quickly I guess, but still... For the real Brexit experience, just replace the saddle with a dildo. Filled with innovative jams.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

4th January 2021, 11:31 AM	#3098
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Looks right.... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-...mers-in-the-uk The £135 mark seems to be the point where you are hit with import duties and VAT while under £135 you are supposed to charge UK supply VAT to the buyer. 'I would have thought' really depends on what was negotiated.... I guess that (<£135) assumes the seller needs to register. If they only make occasional sales <£135 to the UK then the correct VAT they need to charge at the point of sale is £0

4th January 2021, 12:15 PM	#3099
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	Originally Posted by Lothian I guess that (<£135) assumes the seller needs to register. If they only make occasional sales <£135 to the UK then the correct VAT they need to charge at the point of sale is £0 How did you work that out? There is no longer a VAT threshold for overseas sellers as far as I can see so VAT is due on every sale. That being the case it seems unlikely that it would be worthwhile for a company that makes occasional sales to the UK to bother with having to submit quarterly UK VAT returns.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

4th January 2021, 12:52 PM	#3100
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,808	Originally Posted by Lothian Sovereignty. F*#£. People who spout sovereignty would rather be subject to a bad law made solely by Brits than a good law where we were only one of the contributers. Xenophobes is a better term for them. It's the term Dad's been using since 2016.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

4th January 2021, 12:57 PM	#3101
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal How did you work that out? There is no longer a VAT threshold for overseas sellers as far as I can see so VAT is due on every sale. That being the case it seems unlikely that it would be worthwhile for a company that makes occasional sales to the UK to bother with having to submit quarterly UK VAT returns. A zero registration threshold would be a big barrier to trade. Not a good move imo and against the Government's objective of keeping trade flowing.
	Last edited by Lothian; 4th January 2021 at 01:00 PM.

4th January 2021, 01:20 PM	#3102
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	Originally Posted by Lothian A zero registration threshold would be a big barrier to trade. Not a good move imo and against the Government's objective of keeping trade flowing. That's exactly what they have done though. https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/e...hresholds.html Confirmed in the last line of that table. Anyone distance selling into the UK must register for VAT.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

4th January 2021, 02:43 PM	#3103
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 977	Originally Posted by Lothian The process for changing UK law is no easier than changing EU law. Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change. The Lords can suggest amendments and even reject the bill, but the Parliaments act can overrule them. The process for changing EU law requires the Commission to propose an alternative, MEPs and also the Council to approve by Qualified Majority Vote. And even then there's the chaos of what can happen if there's a veto by a member of the Council of Ministers.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 977

4th January 2021, 03:03 PM	#3104
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by Airfix Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change. The Lords can suggest amendments and even reject the bill, but the Parliaments act can overrule them. The process for changing EU law requires the Commission to propose an alternative, MEPs and also the Council to approve by Qualified Majority Vote. And even then there's the chaos of what can happen if there's a veto by a member of the Council of Ministers. MPs of one country? So Welsh MPs can change UK law? The EU approves on average 80 directives a year compared to 33 acts of the UK parliament per year. No evidence that it is harder or more complicated in the EU. You missed the key questions in my post. At what point does sovereignty stop?

4th January 2021, 03:48 PM	#3105
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,922	New VAT rules apply to countries outside the EU too, they will all have to register for UK vat. Plus there is the loss of the £15 exemption for import duty.

4th January 2021, 03:58 PM	#3106
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	And so the predicted apocalypse begins - it's more difficult to buy spare parts for your bicycle now. Joking aside, the rule seems ridiculous. Why should companies in the USA, India, China, that sell the occasional small item to someone in the UK, need to register for UK VAT collection? And what does the UK think it can do if the company just ignores the rule and sends the parcel anyway? If every country implemented such rules then it would make international trade a nightmare: "We've just sold one of our T-shirts to a guy in Bengal. Does anyone know how to register for paying tax there? Who speaks Benagli?" Surely it's better to just do what non-EU countries have been doing for years already. Don't charge any sales tax (or sellers often still charge the sales tax for their own country if they just sell the occasional item overseas and can't be bothered repricing). Then it's up to UK customs to intercept the parcels and charge the receiver VAT and import duty. Sometimes they do this, often they can't be bothered for smaller cheaper items and you, as the buyer, get away without paying the extra charge. Companies that sell loads of stuff to the UK probably wouldn't mind registering, so that they could offer their UK customers a cheaper faster service with the customer not running the risk of being hit with extra customs and handling charges - this is going one (very small) step towards setting up a UK-based daughter company to handle your sales there. And of course, companies that sell tons of stuff into the UK will already have UK-based distribution agents, or UK distribution offices of their own.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Last edited by ceptimus; 4th January 2021 at 04:06 PM.

4th January 2021, 04:10 PM	#3107
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,872	Originally Posted by lomiller Which makes ZERO sense. No deal hurts the UK far more than the EU so the threat of no deal would have bolstered the EU position should they choose to push the issue. But it superficially appeared "tough" to the dumber, flag waving, anti-foreigner type of Brexiteer hence the Bouffant Buffoon's games. Originally Posted by lomiller As expected the EU didn't compromise on any of it's standards, nor would it have benefited people in the UK if it had. These are consumer and labor standards that Right wing politicians have been looking to strip away for years. Brexit means they are free to do so, just not on anything sold to the EU. That's something that most Brexiteers simply can't accept.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

4th January 2021, 05:19 PM	#3108
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by ceptimus And so the predicted apocalypse begins - it's more difficult to buy spare parts for your bicycle now. Joking aside, the rule seems ridiculous. Why should companies in the USA, India, China, that sell the occasional small item to someone in the UK, need to register for UK VAT collection? And what does the UK think it can do if the company just ignores the rule and sends the parcel anyway? If every country implemented such rules then it would make international trade a nightmare: "We've just sold one of our T-shirts to a guy in Bengal. Does anyone know how to register for paying tax there? Who speaks Benagli?" Surely it's better to just do what non-EU countries have been doing for years already. Don't charge any sales tax (or sellers often still charge the sales tax for their own country if they just sell the occasional item overseas and can't be bothered repricing). Then it's up to UK customs to intercept the parcels and charge the receiver VAT and import duty. Sometimes they do this, often they can't be bothered for smaller cheaper items and you, as the buyer, get away without paying the extra charge. Companies that sell loads of stuff to the UK probably wouldn't mind registering, so that they could offer their UK customers a cheaper faster service with the customer not running the risk of being hit with extra customs and handling charges - this is going one (very small) step towards setting up a UK-based daughter company to handle your sales there. And of course, companies that sell tons of stuff into the UK will already have UK-based distribution agents, or UK distribution offices of their own. So you think we should operate as the Europeans do. Why so you hate UK sovereignty? Typical remainer always whining about how things were better.before we got freedom. Seriously I suspect this is because brexit has and will continue to cost us so much money we are squeezing the pips to minimise the inevitable tax rise.

4th January 2021, 06:04 PM	#3109
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Originally Posted by Lothian So you think we should operate as the Europeans do. No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value?
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Last edited by ceptimus; 4th January 2021 at 06:06 PM.

5th January 2021, 01:25 AM	#3110
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,361	Originally Posted by ceptimus No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value? Speaking of Aliexpress...... Over the last year I've bought a number of items from Aliexpress, mostly cycling clothing but also a cover for my BBQ, some kitchen tongs and so on. Yesterday I had a floor light arrive and the UPS delivery person demanded £23 in customs duty. I've never ordered anything more expensive than £30 in the past (this was £80+) so maybe no customs duty was due in the past, but if this is an indication of the post-Brexit retail landscape, Aliexpress will be in trouble IMO.

5th January 2021, 01:26 AM	#3111
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,361	Originally Posted by ceptimus No. I think we should operate like nearly every other country in the world does. How do people in, say, Brasil, buy items from a company in India? How do people from all over the world buy cheap items from companies in China using AliExpress and similar? How is it that I've sold items to people in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and elsewhere via eBay - and the only extra hassle for me was sticking little labels on the packages describing the items and indicating their approximate value? .....and in some of those countries, the recipient would have customs duty to day on arrival (we had this early on with my in-laws sending presents until they learned first to lie about the value and eventually to order from UK-based suppliers instead).

5th January 2021, 03:54 AM	#3112
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,922	Marking it as a 'commercial sample' is always helpful too.

5th January 2021, 04:14 AM	#3113
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,132	Originally Posted by The Don Speaking of Aliexpress...... Over the last year I've bought a number of items from Aliexpress, mostly cycling clothing but also a cover for my BBQ, some kitchen tongs and so on. Yesterday I had a floor light arrive and the UPS delivery person demanded £23 in customs duty. I've never ordered anything more expensive than £30 in the past (this was £80+) so maybe no customs duty was due in the past, but if this is an indication of the post-Brexit retail landscape, Aliexpress will be in trouble IMO. Just had UPS turn up asking for £88 for some items from Holland that cost less than that to buy. I recall EU membership cost each person about £92 a year so the misses has only £4 left for the remaining 360 days.

5th January 2021, 05:25 AM	#3114
Ethan Thane Athen Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,202	Originally Posted by The Don .....and in some of those countries, the recipient would have customs duty to day on arrival (we had this early on with my in-laws sending presents until they learned first to lie about the value and eventually to order from UK-based suppliers instead). You also have to pay a handling charge.... We ordered an item from China and the vat was a few quid (fair enough) but Royal Mail slapped on an £8 handling charge for having to work out the VAT. That was an Amazon reseller and it wasn't clear that VAT would be charged but, as I say, no biggie, it was the handling charge that blew my mind.
	Last edited by Ethan Thane Athen; 5th January 2021 at 05:28 AM.

5th January 2021, 06:51 AM	#3115
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by Airfix Incorrect, the process for changing UK law requires the MPs of one country to change. That cuts both ways. It makes it easier for bad laws to be made in the first place and easier for a mobilized minority to keep bad laws in place. The people pushing Brexit the hardest also favor a LOT of bad laws the general public doesn't support and the EU won't allow. They want an easier environment to make and keep these bad laws much like Republicans in the US have done in the US. If fact most of them want the UK to simply adopt whatever laws the far right in the US tell them to adopt. It's not about Sovereignty it's about making the UK into a vassal state of the US.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"