The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 3 - Page 5

Meadmaker · 21st December 2020, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

I've never met a Muslim that ate pork to my knowledge, or one that claimed to eat pork. It's a central part of their religion to stay away from pork.

I think it would be far more likely to find Muslims with an aversion to pork rather than an acceptance of it. I personally have not branded anyone Muslim to be central or extreme regarding pork consumption. I was only referring to what their religion teaches about it being forbidden for a specific reason.

The terrible part is that whoever made the vaccine did not take this into account when they should have.

I guess they had better not eat the vaccine, then.

quadraginta · 21st December 2020, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

I've never met a Muslim that ate pork to my knowledge, or one that claimed to eat pork. It's a central part of their religion to stay away from pork.

I think it would be far more likely to find Muslims with an aversion to pork rather than an acceptance of it. I personally have not branded anyone Muslim to be central or extreme regarding pork consumption. I was only referring to what their religion teaches about it being forbidden for a specific reason.

The terrible part is that whoever made the vaccine did not take this into account when they should have.

I'm guessing that you didn't bother to read the article which the cited link connected to. It went into these issues in some depth.

Aridas · 21st December 2020, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Kayleigh McEnany tweets
@kayleighmcenany

Before the election...

Biden was a vaccine denier

Kamala was a vaccine denier

Pelosi denied the American People COVID relief

Now...

Biden & Harris take Trump Vaccine

Pelosi finally agrees to COVID relief

BLATANT POLITICS at your expense!!

That's facepunch-worthy.

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Both Muslim and Jewish religious authorities have come out with statements affirming the propriety of taking vaccines which contain gelatin made from pork products. Not just this time around, but for many years in the past.

So it isn't a generic "Muslims actually believe". They have their fundi, wing-nut, neolithic wackos just like Christians do. You shouldn't tar then all with the same brush any more than you should assume that all Christians are like fundi, wing-nut Southern Baptists.

Wait... you're trying to tell us that not all Christians are of the Westboro Baptist variety? *gasps* I'm so shocked!

ChrisBFRPKY · 21st December 2020, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I'm guessing that you didn't bother to read the article which the cited link connected to. It went into these issues in some depth.

It's perfectly fine to guess, even if your wrong.

ChrisBFRPKY · 21st December 2020, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I guess they had better not eat the vaccine, then.

Kinda difficult to not touch something once its been injected into your body.

Aridas · 21st December 2020, 10:26 PM

I'm... just going to poke back at post #123.

Quran -

Quote:

The only things which are made unlawful for you are the flesh of dead animals, blood, pork and that which is not consecrated with the Name of God. But in an emergency, without the intention of transgression and rebellion, (it is not an offense for one to consume such things). God is certainly All-forgiving and All-merciful.

ChrisBFRPKY · 21st December 2020, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

I'm... just going to poke back at post #123.

Quran -

I get that but we're not supposed to make others stumble.

Romans 14:13-19

"13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding."

The specific modern application in this case is do not put pig parts in a vaccine meant for those who may think pigs are unclean.

The Great Zaganza · 21st December 2020, 10:59 PM

Yep, it's the 'one-drop' principle of race applied to Religion: it's not about being devout, it's about being holier than thou.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

I've never met a Muslim that ate pork to my knowledge, or one that claimed to eat pork.....

So you've met them all then?

Central part of their religion? Like all Muslim women wear burkas? Like all the Christians go to church and all the Jews go to the synagog every week?

ChrisBFRPKY · 21st December 2020, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So you've met them all then?

Central part of their religion? Like all Muslim women wear burkas? Like all the Christians go to church and all the Jews go to the synagog every week?

Is it really your intention to argue for pro-pork Muslims?

The Don · 22nd December 2020, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Is it really your intention to argue for pro-pork Muslims?

Is it your assertion that there isn't a single person who considers themselves Muslim who will eat pork either in extremis or simply for pleasure ?

Here's a video, which may or may not be viewable in your area, which shows exactly that - in Indonesia:

https://coconuts.co/jakarta/features...jakarta-video/

Then again, it's just a case of deflecting from the actual argument - that Muslims would be prepared to take a vaccine which contains gelatine made from pork.

It seems that, in general, they would not least because many prominent Imams have said that its OK for them to do so. You'd have known that if you'd bothered to read the article as opposed to simply leaping to the default "Muslims bad/stoopid" conclusion. As the article says:

Quote:

A decree was later issued by the Muslim clerical body saying it was permissible to receive the vaccine, but cultural taboos still led to continued low vaccination rates, Howard said.

https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c

It appears not to be simply a matter of religion but a broader cultural issue in Indonesia.

The Great Zaganza · 22nd December 2020, 01:30 AM

Ideologically, it might be easier for fundamentalist Muslims to accept a vaccine made from fetus tissue than with pork Gelatine.

ChrisBFRPKY · 22nd December 2020, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Is it your assertion that there isn't a single person who considers themselves Muslim who will eat pork either in extremis or simply for pleasure ?

Here's a video, which may or may not be viewable in your area, which shows exactly that - in Indonesia:

https://coconuts.co/jakarta/features...jakarta-video/

Then again, it's just a case of deflecting from the actual argument - that Muslims would be prepared to take a vaccine which contains gelatine made from pork.

It seems that, in general, they would not least because many prominent Imams have said that its OK for them to do so. You'd have known that if you'd bothered to read the article as opposed to simply leaping to the default "Muslims bad/stoopid" conclusion. As the article says:

https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c

It appears not to be simply a matter of religion but a broader cultural issue in Indonesia.

First of all let me correct your false assertions. I never said nor implied Muslims are bad or stupid.

In case you did not comprehend my previous posts, my implication is that those who made the vaccine should not have used any animal parts that could be viewed by some religious groups as mashbooh.

I'm all for a confrontational discussion but you'll need to stick with what I've actually said and try not to imply a substitution for which you can attack without justification.

newyorkguy · 22nd December 2020, 02:57 AM

It's sad but expected, out of all the issues raised in this thread and the one previous, a trump supporter finally finds one they can respond to. Muslims might have concerns about a vaccine that has pork byproducts in it.

kookbreaker · 22nd December 2020, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

It's sad but expected, out of all the issues raised in this thread and the one previous, a trump supporter finally finds one they can respond to. Muslims might have concerns about a vaccine that has pork byproducts in it.

The straws must be grasped for when their dear leader keeps trying to drag them back into the drowning pool.

Segnosaur · 22nd December 2020, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Re: vaccination of republican Congress-critters (such as Gaetz)...

Quote:

.... but again you have to look at the chance that they might spread the disease to others.

So people need a vaccine because they refuse to wear a mask?

I agree... it sucks. Majorly. It is definitely unfair to those who have taken a more responsible attitude.... masks and social distancing.

But, if the goal is saving lives and/or reducing the strain on the medical system, it may be the best way. If Gaetz caught covid19 again, I'd have no sympathy. "Dumb-ass republicans should be wearing masks". But if he passes it on to (for example) staff members in congress, or the pilot on the plane he is flying on to return to his district, those people don't deserve to suffer.

Note: My argument is based on the idea that congress critters may be more likely to catch/spread the disease than other people because their jobs require extensive travel and personal interactions... If it is found that other population groups are more likely to be super-spreaders, then they should get priority instead.

thaiboxerken · 22nd December 2020, 07:33 AM

Vaccine? Pshaw!

Why couldn't we just inject bleach to kill the virus?

I'm 100% sure that enough injected bleach will prevent a person from getting covid-19.

Mader Levap · 22nd December 2020, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I'm 100% sure that enough injected bleach will prevent a person from getting covid-19.

That's true. Dead people can't get sick.

Paul2 · 22nd December 2020, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Armitage72

Gee, nobody has ever thought of that before.

California has established a number of social programs to help the homeless deal with the virus.
Homeless people spend a lot of their time outdoors.
People kept their distance from homeless people before the pandemic.

Studies of homeless people have shown an unusually high percentage of asymptomatic cases though. They're trying to figure out why, according to the article.

I'd rather just ask a question that insinuates something that plays into my prejudices and not actually do research and let facts guide my thinking.

Resume · 22nd December 2020, 08:08 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
18,684,628
Deaths:
330,824

New Cases:
199,080
New Deaths:
3,376

ChrisBFRPKY · 22nd December 2020, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

It's sad but expected, out of all the issues raised in this thread and the one previous, a trump supporter finally finds one they can respond to. Muslims might have concerns about a vaccine that has pork byproducts in it.

Appeal to pity.

Darat · 23rd December 2020, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

This is terrible. Muslims actually believe if one drop of blood from a pig touches them, they're bound for Hell with no chance to enter Mecca. This will undoubtedly lead to mass rejection of the vaccine in the Middle East. Accidental oversight by vaccine mfgs? Surely nobody's that dumb.

No they don't.

The Don · 23rd December 2020, 01:43 AM

It seems that the US now has one third of a million deaths from Covid-19. I know that President Trump and the GOP will insist that this shows how brilliantly the Trump Administration has responded to the pandemic because everyone was saying that at least two million would die (if absolutely noting was done) but by any reasonable standard that's a shocking number - not least because the deaths are increasing rapidly and even at the current rate, 100k a month are being added to that sad statistic.

I hope that Joe Biden will be able to influential in changing things around but AIUI, although he can set the national tone, the states themselves are responsible for managing their own response so that Texas and South Dakota can continue to proudly fumble the ball.

Stacyhs · 23rd December 2020, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

It seems that the US now has one third of a million deaths from Covid-19. I know that President Trump and the GOP will insist that this shows how brilliantly the Trump Administration has responded to the pandemic because everyone was saying that at least two million would die (if absolutely noting was done) but by any reasonable standard that's a shocking number - not least because the deaths are increasing rapidly and even at the current rate, 100k a month are being added to that sad statistic.

I hope that Joe Biden will be able to influential in changing things around but AIUI, although he can set the national tone, the states themselves are responsible for managing their own response so that Texas and South Dakota can continue to proudly fumble the ball.

That horse has left the barn. How people view it...maskers/anti-maskers, seriously/hoaxers, etc...was set last spring.

Meadmaker · 23rd December 2020, 07:20 AM

A thought occurred to me yesterday as I went out to a store.

Mask wearing in my corner of Michigan has become universal. Everyone had a mask, and all were properly worn. When I first ventured out into the world post-lockdown, there were a lot of masks covering the mouth, but not the nose. Yesterday, every mask I saw was coving both mouth and nose.

Is it the same everywhere? Is this a national trend, or just in certain areas?

slyjoe · 23rd December 2020, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

A thought occurred to me yesterday as I went out to a store.

Mask wearing in my corner of Michigan has become universal. Everyone had a mask, and all were properly worn. When I first ventured out into the world post-lockdown, there were a lot of masks covering the mouth, but not the nose. Yesterday, every mask I saw was coving both mouth and nose.

Is it the same everywhere? Is this a national trend, or just in certain areas?

You have a mask mandate from the governor, correct? In AZ, we don't. There are still a bunch of people without masks, a bunch with masks covering only the mouth, and a bunch hanging around people's necks.

I had 4 air conditioner installers here last week, and not one had a mask. However, when you go into stores, MOST people have masks on.

ToddH · 23rd December 2020, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

A thought occurred to me yesterday as I went out to a store.

Mask wearing in my corner of Michigan has become universal. Everyone had a mask, and all were properly worn. When I first ventured out into the world post-lockdown, there were a lot of masks covering the mouth, but not the nose. Yesterday, every mask I saw was coving both mouth and nose.

Is it the same everywhere? Is this a national trend, or just in certain areas?

I’m one of the few people that wears a mask here in my little slice of small town Georgia. Most everyone else seems to just pretend the virus doesn’t exist. All the restaurants and churches are business as usual.

Sad thing is I now personally know four people that have died from COVID. My brother and his family are currently fighting it as well.

dudalb · 23rd December 2020, 12:33 PM

Kirk Cameron does it again:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/23/enter...sts/index.html

I think this guy just plain hates sceince.
I note he can't even get his stupid DTV movies funded any more.

Trebuchet · 23rd December 2020, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

No they don't.

You are attempting a rational discussion with a bigfoot believer. It's pointless.

Resume · 23rd December 2020, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Kirk Cameron does it again:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/23/enter...sts/index.html

I think this guy just plain hates sceince.
I note he can't even get his stupid DTV movies funded any more.

He's even the dumbest guy in a room that includes Ray Comfort.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd December 2020, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

You are attempting a rational discussion with a bigfoot believer. It's pointless.

Sometimes one still has to push back.

Blue Mountain · 23rd December 2020, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Kirk Cameron does it again:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/23/enter...sts/index.html

I think this guy just plain hates sceince.
I note he can't even get his stupid DTV movies funded any more.

Can you please format your links properly?

Kirk Cameron organizes caroling protests amid California's Covid-19 surge

Captain_Swoop · 23rd December 2020, 02:13 PM

What do you mean the vaccine is $601?

Resume · 23rd December 2020, 07:13 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
18,917,152
Deaths:
334,218

New Cases:
232,342
New Deaths:
3,401

quadraginta · 23rd December 2020, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

<snip>

In case you did not comprehend my previous posts, my implication is that those who made the vaccine should not have used any animal parts that could be viewed by some religious groups as mashbooh.

<snip>

Another point made in the article is that the pork based gelatin works much better as a stabilizer than any of the other available substitutes.

Combine that with the fact that Muslim and Hebrew religious authorities have for years stated that such an inclusion in a vaccine does not violate any religious proscription on eating pork, and there should be enough information for even you to grasp the reasoning for its use.

ChrisBFRPKY · 24th December 2020, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

No they don't.

If that were true we wouldn't have wudu................

ChrisBFRPKY · 24th December 2020, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Another point made in the article is that the pork based gelatin works much better as a stabilizer than any of the other available substitutes.

Combine that with the fact that Muslim and Hebrew religious authorities have for years stated that such an inclusion in a vaccine does not violate any religious proscription on eating pork, and there should be enough information for even you to grasp the reasoning for its use.

Your post began as an example of a fine effort, but it ended in fallacy, unfortunate.

Ad hominem:

"The various types of ad hominem arguments have been known in the West since at least the ancient Greeks. Aristotle, in his work Sophistical Refutations, detailed the fallaciousness of putting the questioner but not the argument under scrutiny." wiki

Meadmaker · 24th December 2020, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

You have a mask mandate from the governor, correct?

Yes, we do. I'm not sure the complete parameters of it, but I know that all businesses have signs saying masks are required.

A lot of people hate our governor for her response to the Covid-19 epidemic. I, on the other hand, was disappointed she wasn't tagged for Vice President. Kamala's fine, but I like our governor.

We are having an explosion of cases, like elsewhere, but our explosions are not as dramatic as elsewhere. It's working, or at least it's working better than most of the rest of the US.

Meadmaker · 24th December 2020, 01:41 AM

Apparently, vaccine rollout isn't going as quickly as anticipated.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...?ocid=msedgdhp

I look at it as one last chance to fail for Donald Trump and his crew. He spent plenty of money on Operation Warp Speed, but their plan seems to consist of "We'll ship it to states, and let them figure it out." There's not much of an actual process.

If Biden doesn't do better, I want my money back.

newyorkguy · 24th December 2020, 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

...I'm not sure the complete parameters of it, but I know that all businesses have signs saying masks are required...

The requirements Whitmer ordered are easy to find:

Quote:

Acting under the Michigan Constitution of 1963 and Michigan law, I order the following:

Any individual who leaves their home or place of residence must wear a face covering over their nose and mouth:
When in any indoor public space;
When outdoors and unable to consistently maintain a distance of six feet or more from individuals who are not members of their household; and
When waiting for or riding on public transportation, while in a taxi or ride-sharing vehicle, or when using a private car service as a means of hired transportation.

Office of Governor Gretchen Whitmer

Today we go over 19 million cases. Probably by lunchtime EST.

21st December 2020, 10:01 PM	#161
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,285	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY I've never met a Muslim that ate pork to my knowledge, or one that claimed to eat pork. It's a central part of their religion to stay away from pork. I think it would be far more likely to find Muslims with an aversion to pork rather than an acceptance of it. I personally have not branded anyone Muslim to be central or extreme regarding pork consumption. I was only referring to what their religion teaches about it being forbidden for a specific reason. The terrible part is that whoever made the vaccine did not take this into account when they should have. I guess they had better not eat the vaccine, then.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

21st December 2020, 10:07 PM	#162
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY I've never met a Muslim that ate pork to my knowledge, or one that claimed to eat pork. It's a central part of their religion to stay away from pork. I think it would be far more likely to find Muslims with an aversion to pork rather than an acceptance of it. I personally have not branded anyone Muslim to be central or extreme regarding pork consumption. I was only referring to what their religion teaches about it being forbidden for a specific reason. The terrible part is that whoever made the vaccine did not take this into account when they should have. I'm guessing that you didn't bother to read the article which the cited link connected to. It went into these issues in some depth.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

21st December 2020, 10:08 PM	#163
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,469	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Kayleigh McEnany tweets @kayleighmcenany Before the election... Biden was a vaccine denier Kamala was a vaccine denier Pelosi denied the American People COVID relief Now... Biden & Harris take Trump Vaccine Pelosi finally agrees to COVID relief BLATANT POLITICS at your expense!! That's facepunch-worthy. Originally Posted by quadraginta Both Muslim and Jewish religious authorities have come out with statements affirming the propriety of taking vaccines which contain gelatin made from pork products. Not just this time around, but for many years in the past. So it isn't a generic "Muslims actually believe". They have their fundi, wing-nut, neolithic wackos just like Christians do. You shouldn't tar then all with the same brush any more than you should assume that all Christians are like fundi, wing-nut Southern Baptists. Wait... you're trying to tell us that not all Christians are of the Westboro Baptist variety? gasps I'm so shocked!
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

21st December 2020, 10:20 PM	#164
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by quadraginta I'm guessing that you didn't bother to read the article which the cited link connected to. It went into these issues in some depth. It's perfectly fine to guess, even if your wrong.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

21st December 2020, 10:22 PM	#165
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I guess they had better not eat the vaccine, then. Kinda difficult to not touch something once its been injected into your body.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

21st December 2020, 10:26 PM	#166
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,469	I'm... just going to poke back at post #123. Quran - Quote: The only things which are made unlawful for you are the flesh of dead animals, blood, pork and that which is not consecrated with the Name of God. But in an emergency, without the intention of transgression and rebellion, (it is not an offense for one to consume such things). God is certainly All-forgiving and All-merciful.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

21st December 2020, 10:39 PM	#167
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by Aridas I'm... just going to poke back at post #123. Quran - I get that but we're not supposed to make others stumble. Romans 14:13-19 "13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding." The specific modern application in this case is do not put pig parts in a vaccine meant for those who may think pigs are unclean.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

21st December 2020, 10:59 PM	#168
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,686	Yep, it's the 'one-drop' principle of race applied to Religion: it's not about being devout, it's about being holier than thou.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

21st December 2020, 11:06 PM	#169
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,016	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY I've never met a Muslim that ate pork to my knowledge, or one that claimed to eat pork..... So you've met them all then? Central part of their religion? Like all Muslim women wear burkas? Like all the Christians go to church and all the Jews go to the synagog every week?

21st December 2020, 11:14 PM	#170
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger So you've met them all then? Central part of their religion? Like all Muslim women wear burkas? Like all the Christians go to church and all the Jews go to the synagog every week? Is it really your intention to argue for pro-pork Muslims?
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

22nd December 2020, 01:27 AM	#171
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,368	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY Is it really your intention to argue for pro-pork Muslims? Is it your assertion that there isn't a single person who considers themselves Muslim who will eat pork either in extremis or simply for pleasure ? Here's a video, which may or may not be viewable in your area, which shows exactly that - in Indonesia: https://coconuts.co/jakarta/features...jakarta-video/ Then again, it's just a case of deflecting from the actual argument - that Muslims would be prepared to take a vaccine which contains gelatine made from pork. It seems that, in general, they would not least because many prominent Imams have said that its OK for them to do so. You'd have known that if you'd bothered to read the article as opposed to simply leaping to the default "Muslims bad/stoopid" conclusion. As the article says: Quote: A decree was later issued by the Muslim clerical body saying it was permissible to receive the vaccine, but cultural taboos still led to continued low vaccination rates, Howard said. https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c It appears not to be simply a matter of religion but a broader cultural issue in Indonesia.
	Last edited by The Don; 22nd December 2020 at 01:30 AM.

22nd December 2020, 01:30 AM	#172
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,686	Ideologically, it might be easier for fundamentalist Muslims to accept a vaccine made from fetus tissue than with pork Gelatine.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

22nd December 2020, 02:55 AM	#173
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by The Don Is it your assertion that there isn't a single person who considers themselves Muslim who will eat pork either in extremis or simply for pleasure ? Here's a video, which may or may not be viewable in your area, which shows exactly that - in Indonesia: https://coconuts.co/jakarta/features...jakarta-video/ Then again, it's just a case of deflecting from the actual argument - that Muslims would be prepared to take a vaccine which contains gelatine made from pork. It seems that, in general, they would not least because many prominent Imams have said that its OK for them to do so. You'd have known that if you'd bothered to read the article as opposed to simply leaping to the default "Muslims bad/stoopid" conclusion. As the article says: https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c It appears not to be simply a matter of religion but a broader cultural issue in Indonesia. First of all let me correct your false assertions. I never said nor implied Muslims are bad or stupid. In case you did not comprehend my previous posts, my implication is that those who made the vaccine should not have used any animal parts that could be viewed by some religious groups as mashbooh. I'm all for a confrontational discussion but you'll need to stick with what I've actually said and try not to imply a substitution for which you can attack without justification.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

22nd December 2020, 02:57 AM	#174
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 11,499	It's sad but expected, out of all the issues raised in this thread and the one previous, a trump supporter finally finds one they can respond to. Muslims might have concerns about a vaccine that has pork byproducts in it.

22nd December 2020, 05:28 AM	#175
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,178	Originally Posted by newyorkguy It's sad but expected, out of all the issues raised in this thread and the one previous, a trump supporter finally finds one they can respond to. Muslims might have concerns about a vaccine that has pork byproducts in it. The straws must be grasped for when their dear leader keeps trying to drag them back into the drowning pool.
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.

22nd December 2020, 07:19 AM	#176
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,127	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Re: vaccination of republican Congress-critters (such as Gaetz)... Quote: .... but again you have to look at the chance that they might spread the disease to others. So people need a vaccine because they refuse to wear a mask? I agree... it sucks. Majorly. It is definitely unfair to those who have taken a more responsible attitude.... masks and social distancing. But, if the goal is saving lives and/or reducing the strain on the medical system, it may be the best way. If Gaetz caught covid19 again, I'd have no sympathy. "Dumb-ass republicans should be wearing masks". But if he passes it on to (for example) staff members in congress, or the pilot on the plane he is flying on to return to his district, those people don't deserve to suffer. Note: My argument is based on the idea that congress critters may be more likely to catch/spread the disease than other people because their jobs require extensive travel and personal interactions... If it is found that other population groups are more likely to be super-spreaders, then they should get priority instead.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

22nd December 2020, 07:33 AM	#177
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,712	Vaccine? Pshaw! Why couldn't we just inject bleach to kill the virus? I'm 100% sure that enough injected bleach will prevent a person from getting covid-19.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

22nd December 2020, 08:16 AM	#178
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,576	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken I'm 100% sure that enough injected bleach will prevent a person from getting covid-19. That's true. Dead people can't get sick.
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.

22nd December 2020, 09:54 AM	#179
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,594	Originally Posted by Armitage72 Gee, nobody has ever thought of that before. California has established a number of social programs to help the homeless deal with the virus. Homeless people spend a lot of their time outdoors. People kept their distance from homeless people before the pandemic. Studies of homeless people have shown an unusually high percentage of asymptomatic cases though. They're trying to figure out why, according to the article. I'd rather just ask a question that insinuates something that plays into my prejudices and not actually do research and let facts guide my thinking.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,594	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

22nd December 2020, 08:08 PM	#180
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,865	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 18,684,628 Deaths: 330,824 New Cases: 199,080 New Deaths: 3,376

22nd December 2020, 10:13 PM	#181
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by newyorkguy It's sad but expected, out of all the issues raised in this thread and the one previous, a trump supporter finally finds one they can respond to. Muslims might have concerns about a vaccine that has pork byproducts in it. Appeal to pity.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

23rd December 2020, 01:25 AM	#182
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,133	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY This is terrible. Muslims actually believe if one drop of blood from a pig touches them, they're bound for Hell with no chance to enter Mecca. This will undoubtedly lead to mass rejection of the vaccine in the Middle East. Accidental oversight by vaccine mfgs? Surely nobody's that dumb. No they don't.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

23rd December 2020, 01:43 AM	#183
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,368	It seems that the US now has one third of a million deaths from Covid-19. I know that President Trump and the GOP will insist that this shows how brilliantly the Trump Administration has responded to the pandemic because everyone was saying that at least two million would die (if absolutely noting was done) but by any reasonable standard that's a shocking number - not least because the deaths are increasing rapidly and even at the current rate, 100k a month are being added to that sad statistic. I hope that Joe Biden will be able to influential in changing things around but AIUI, although he can set the national tone, the states themselves are responsible for managing their own response so that Texas and South Dakota can continue to proudly fumble the ball.

23rd December 2020, 01:56 AM	#184
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,029	Originally Posted by The Don It seems that the US now has one third of a million deaths from Covid-19. I know that President Trump and the GOP will insist that this shows how brilliantly the Trump Administration has responded to the pandemic because everyone was saying that at least two million would die (if absolutely noting was done) but by any reasonable standard that's a shocking number - not least because the deaths are increasing rapidly and even at the current rate, 100k a month are being added to that sad statistic. I hope that Joe Biden will be able to influential in changing things around but AIUI, although he can set the national tone, the states themselves are responsible for managing their own response so that Texas and South Dakota can continue to proudly fumble the ball. That horse has left the barn. How people view it...maskers/anti-maskers, seriously/hoaxers, etc...was set last spring.

23rd December 2020, 07:20 AM	#185
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,285	A thought occurred to me yesterday as I went out to a store. Mask wearing in my corner of Michigan has become universal. Everyone had a mask, and all were properly worn. When I first ventured out into the world post-lockdown, there were a lot of masks covering the mouth, but not the nose. Yesterday, every mask I saw was coving both mouth and nose. Is it the same everywhere? Is this a national trend, or just in certain areas?
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

23rd December 2020, 07:48 AM	#186
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,567	Originally Posted by Meadmaker A thought occurred to me yesterday as I went out to a store. Mask wearing in my corner of Michigan has become universal. Everyone had a mask, and all were properly worn. When I first ventured out into the world post-lockdown, there were a lot of masks covering the mouth, but not the nose. Yesterday, every mask I saw was coving both mouth and nose. Is it the same everywhere? Is this a national trend, or just in certain areas? You have a mask mandate from the governor, correct? In AZ, we don't. There are still a bunch of people without masks, a bunch with masks covering only the mouth, and a bunch hanging around people's necks. I had 4 air conditioner installers here last week, and not one had a mask. However, when you go into stores, MOST people have masks on.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

23rd December 2020, 07:53 AM	#187
ToddH Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 413	Originally Posted by Meadmaker A thought occurred to me yesterday as I went out to a store. Mask wearing in my corner of Michigan has become universal. Everyone had a mask, and all were properly worn. When I first ventured out into the world post-lockdown, there were a lot of masks covering the mouth, but not the nose. Yesterday, every mask I saw was coving both mouth and nose. Is it the same everywhere? Is this a national trend, or just in certain areas? I’m one of the few people that wears a mask here in my little slice of small town Georgia. Most everyone else seems to just pretend the virus doesn’t exist. All the restaurants and churches are business as usual. Sad thing is I now personally know four people that have died from COVID. My brother and his family are currently fighting it as well.
ToddH Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 413

23rd December 2020, 12:33 PM	#188
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Kirk Cameron does it again: https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/23/enter...sts/index.html I think this guy just plain hates sceince. I note he can't even get his stupid DTV movies funded any more.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

23rd December 2020, 01:23 PM	#189
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,067	Originally Posted by Darat No they don't. You are attempting a rational discussion with a bigfoot believer. It's pointless.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

23rd December 2020, 01:24 PM	#190
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,865	Originally Posted by dudalb Kirk Cameron does it again: https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/23/enter...sts/index.html I think this guy just plain hates sceince. I note he can't even get his stupid DTV movies funded any more. He's even the dumbest guy in a room that includes Ray Comfort.

23rd December 2020, 01:29 PM	#191
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,016	Originally Posted by Trebuchet You are attempting a rational discussion with a bigfoot believer. It's pointless. Sometimes one still has to push back.

23rd December 2020, 01:34 PM	#192
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 6,475	Originally Posted by dudalb Kirk Cameron does it again: https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/23/enter...sts/index.html I think this guy just plain hates sceince. I note he can't even get his stupid DTV movies funded any more. Can you please format your links properly? Kirk Cameron organizes caroling protests amid California's Covid-19 surge
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

23rd December 2020, 02:13 PM	#193
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,972	What do you mean the vaccine is $601?

23rd December 2020, 07:13 PM	#194
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,865	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 18,917,152 Deaths: 334,218 New Cases: 232,342 New Deaths: 3,401

23rd December 2020, 10:49 PM	#195
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY <snip> In case you did not comprehend my previous posts, my implication is that those who made the vaccine should not have used any animal parts that could be viewed by some religious groups as mashbooh. <snip> Another point made in the article is that the pork based gelatin works much better as a stabilizer than any of the other available substitutes. Combine that with the fact that Muslim and Hebrew religious authorities have for years stated that such an inclusion in a vaccine does not violate any religious proscription on eating pork, and there should be enough information for even you to grasp the reasoning for its use.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."