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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 14th August 2017, 08:26 AM   #1161
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Okay.

Do you want to expand upon that?
What compromises do you think there should be between Nazi's and anti fascits? Sometimes someone is just wrong.
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Old 14th August 2017, 08:27 AM   #1162
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I

I'm not sure you realize just how much some people do not want to see the body parts of the opposite sex, or do not want their children to. I don't always agree with their hard boundaries, but I do try to respect them. Once again, transgendered individuals want their lifestyles to be respected, but so does every one else, and sometimes the two are mutually exclusive with no real compromise possible.

.
I entirely understand. People will be upset. I'm just not sure if that is enough to justify enforced segregation.

My mind replaces it with people not wanting their kids to see gays hold hands or an interracial couple kiss. Or asking a burn victim or breastfeeding mother to leave because they are making people uncomfortable.
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Old 14th August 2017, 08:29 AM   #1163
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Sorry to cherry pick, post and run, but just wanna answer this real quick between chores in RL.

I don't think being transgendered makes someone dangerous.

However, I don't think being transgendered makes someone any more or less capable of being dangerous.

A dangerous person who becomes transgendered is still dangerous. I don't believe changing gender magically takes away any tendency toward violence, nor does it instill a violent disposition that wasn't there before.
Of course. They don't make a situation any more or less dangerous. They are just people like everyone else.

Last edited by DreamingNaiad; 14th August 2017 at 08:32 AM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 14th August 2017, 08:44 AM   #1164
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Okay.

Do you want to expand upon that?
There was no compromise position on slavery, for example.

The "compromise" in Jim Crow days was separate facilities. But that was not acceptable. The answer (civil rights) certainly was not one that made everyone happy.

The compromise on gay marriage was civil unions, which also ended up not being acceptable. The answer (gay marriage legal) is not a compromise.

I see the transgender rights movement going the same direction - towards allowing transgender rights rather than taking them away. Some people are not going to be happy, but there isn't really an acceptable compromise position.

Frank question: Do you actually know any transgender people personally? Friends, acquaintances?
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Old 14th August 2017, 10:04 PM   #1165
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
There was no compromise position on slavery, for example.
Seriously? You're going to compare the CHOICE of transgendered people to behave like they're the opposite of their biological sex to slavery?

Quote:
Frank question: Do you actually know any transgender people personally? Friends, acquaintances?
I have already answered that. I'm not going to repeat myself any more.

I'm bowing out of this topic, as it's clear that reason, like Elvis, has left the building. I guess time will tell if either ever return.

I'll just go on record to say "This is a bad idea".

When teenage girls all over the country can't take a shower due to the flash mobs of boys in the locker rooms, I'd love to be the fly on the wall while you explain they're "confused" and "irrational" for not wanting to give an eyeful to every kid in school.

When men are forced to go outside behind the buildings, and every alley stinks because they're afraid to use the facilities because they don't want to see other men, be seen by other men, or accidentally scare a woman somehow, I might start snappin' pictures of the pee stains on our million-dollar buildings for my a blog or instagram.

All over the world there are people who still don't have toilets, and are forced to relieve themselves in ditches and fields. We call them "3rd world conditions" and lament their lack of privacy, safety and sanitation.

But instead of choosing to fight that cause, you want to spend just as much energy and time forcing people here to give those same hard won things up.

Have fun, folks.
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Last edited by DragonLady; 14th August 2017 at 10:05 PM. Reason: spallin'
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Old 15th August 2017, 12:00 AM   #1166
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Won't someone think of the children?

And we also have a 'people have it worse in the third world so why bother?'
And a 'allowing people to access toilets will make everyone pee in the streets because reasons'

And then storming out with righteous indignation.

I think I've got a bingo.
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Old 15th August 2017, 01:05 AM   #1167
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Seriously? You're going to compare the CHOICE of transgendered people to behave like they're the opposite of their biological sex to slavery?
You seriously need to stop posting **** you don't know anything about. You obviously haven't done a modicum of research on this.
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Old 15th August 2017, 01:42 AM   #1168
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You seriously need to stop posting **** you don't know anything about. You obviously haven't done a modicum of research on this.
Then could you expand on it.

Because I also personally find your comparison of a person who feels they are a different sex and then choses to become that sex, to forced deportation and a life of slavery, knowing you will never see anyone you know ever again and all the other disgusting realitys of what slaves went through, frankly laughable.

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Old 15th August 2017, 02:02 AM   #1169
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
So for now, I'll just leave the updated version of the ol' M&M argument here:

Here's a bowl containing 1,000 M&M's; representing allowing both genders into every bathroom.

900 of them are harmless and normal female M&M's.
50 of them are harmless and normal male M&M's
30 of them are normal male M&M's with unknown motives
10 of them are normal male M&M's with harmful motives
4 of them are normal female M&M's with harmful motives
4 of them are harmless, cross dressed male M&M's
1 of them is a cross dressed male serial rapist.
1 of them is a harmless trans woman.

Now how many handfuls should our grand children have to eat in their lifetimes?

EDA: I've not made any effort to match these numbers to any actual statistics or demographics. They are just random, to help illustrate the point I'm trying to make.
I'm going to take this opportunity to point out what's wrong with the ol' M&M argument.

So, of course, the general thought experiment isn't necessarily wrong on its surface. If we envision the risk of allowing "x" as a finite bowl of M&Ms, it seems pretty clear that we wouldn't eat one if 14 out of 1000 were harmful.

That's 1.4% if we're doing the math, and that's the problem with most applications of the M&M argument. They don't do the math. Like you, they pull numbers out of the air.

So what they're doing is comparing zero risk (eating no M&Ms) to some risk (In your case 1.4% chance of the poisoned M&M).

But in real life, we can't eliminate risks altogether. When you eat real and actual M&Ms, there is some non-zero chance that something has gone wrong with the manufacturing process and something dangerous is in that candy coating. The chance of that is very low, far far less than the 1.4% you're talking about in your bowl of 1000. So I'm willing to bet you take the chance. You eat M&Ms or drink coke, or eat vegetables even though occasionally a shipment of green beans is infected with salmonella.

You take risks when you cross the street. A crazy or distracted driver may come by at far over the speed limit.

We live every day weighing low risks and refusing to let them alter our behavior.

Anyone you get on an elevator with could be a serial killer. But you still get on elevators.

For any of these situations, we could imagine the risk as a small number of poisoned candies in an M&M bowl of the appropriate size.

So it becomes clear that it isn't the presence of poisoned candies that make taking handfuls a bad idea, because just about every single decision we make is a bowl with a few poisoned ones. What rationally would stop us from taking handfuls would be particular ratios of poisoned to safe in our bowls.

With that in mind, not doing the math, is refusing to evaluate that ratio. Making up random numbers is putting this case on a different footing than every other risk assessment you do every day.

The idea of visualizing risk as a bowl of candies with hidden poison isn't wrong. What's wrong is only apply that to certain risks, and failing to compare them to other risks that we all accept.

And if we do a fair comparison of risk levels, we don't really need the thought experiment. It really only serves as an appeal to emotion "This is a risk! Why take it". But of course that's a silly question. We trade off risks for benefits and freedoms all the time. What would actually make a case would be an evaluation that put some prevalence to that risk, some numbers. Anything short of that is purposefully or thoughtlessly, misrepresenting the way we process risk.
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Old 15th August 2017, 02:13 AM   #1170
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then could you expand on it.

Because I also personally find your comparison of a person who feels they are a different sex and then choses to become that sex, to forced deportation and a life of slavery, knowing you will never see anyone you know ever again and all the other disgusting realitys of what slaves went through, frankly laughable.
I took issue with the "choice" part. I have no desire to get dragged into a discussion about anything else.
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Old 15th August 2017, 02:35 AM   #1171
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I'm going to take this opportunity to point out what's wrong with the ol' M&M argument.

So, of course, the general thought experiment isn't necessarily wrong on its surface. If we envision the risk of allowing "x" as a finite bowl of M&Ms, it seems pretty clear that we wouldn't eat one if 14 out of 1000 were harmful.
These arguments also use things like M&M's or Skittles in a situation where we could simply throw out the infected candy and get some more, or easily do without candy today. Many things we do have various degrees of risk but we do them as part of getting through life, not as frivolous indulgences.

Of course some of our frivolous indulgences have the greatest risks (extreme sports etc.)
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Old 15th August 2017, 02:49 AM   #1172
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Seriously? You're going to compare the CHOICE of transgendered people to behave like they're the opposite of their biological sex to slavery?



I have already answered that. I'm not going to repeat myself any more.

I'm bowing out of this topic, as it's clear that reason, like Elvis, has left the building. I guess time will tell if either ever return.

I'll just go on record to say "This is a bad idea".

When teenage girls all over the country can't take a shower due to the flash mobs of boys in the locker rooms, I'd love to be the fly on the wall while you explain they're "confused" and "irrational" for not wanting to give an eyeful to every kid in school.

When men are forced to go outside behind the buildings, and every alley stinks because they're afraid to use the facilities because they don't want to see other men, be seen by other men, or accidentally scare a woman somehow, I might start snappin' pictures of the pee stains on our million-dollar buildings for my a blog or instagram.

All over the world there are people who still don't have toilets, and are forced to relieve themselves in ditches and fields. We call them "3rd world conditions" and lament their lack of privacy, safety and sanitation.

But instead of choosing to fight that cause, you want to spend just as much energy and time forcing people here to give those same hard won things up.

Have fun, folks.
That fact that you think it is a choice is the problem. You've already been told that sex and gender are different. Is being gay a choice too?

That entire post was basically the same as saying gay marriage will lead to legalised paedophilia and people marrying horses.

Vague unsupported nonsense that has nothing to do with the fact that TG people have always been in your bathroom and none of these things have happened.

TG people being banned from facilities will not make toilets appear in 3rd world countries. I don't even know what what was about
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Old 15th August 2017, 03:46 AM   #1173
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Won't someone think of the children?

And we also have a 'people have it worse in the third world so why bother?'
And a 'allowing people to access toilets will make everyone pee in the streets because reasons'

And then storming out with righteous indignation.

I think I've got a bingo.
Your prize is a bag of M&Ms
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Old 15th August 2017, 03:51 AM   #1174
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Seriously? You're going to compare the CHOICE of transgendered people to behave like they're the opposite of their biological sex to slavery?
Just like being gay and interracial marriage. Those corrupting influences have already destroyed the children.
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Old 15th August 2017, 03:52 AM   #1175
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then could you expand on it.

Because I also personally find your comparison of a person who feels they are a different sex and then choses to become that sex, to forced deportation and a life of slavery, knowing you will never see anyone you know ever again and all the other disgusting realitys of what slaves went through, frankly laughable.

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And how funny it is when they kill themselves. All over some silly choice.
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Old 15th August 2017, 08:54 AM   #1176
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
When teenage girls all over the country can't take a shower due to the flash mobs of boys in the locker rooms, I'd love to be the fly on the wall while you explain they're "confused" and "irrational" for not wanting to give an eyeful to every kid in school.
And flash mobs of girls in the boys locker rooms to ogle the football team.
Quote:
When men are forced to go outside behind the buildings, and every alley stinks because they're afraid to use the facilities because they don't want to see other men, be seen by other men, or accidentally scare a woman somehow, I might start snappin' pictures of the pee stains on our million-dollar buildings for my a blog or instagram.
Suddenly men will be afraid of being seen by other men, because icky transgenders. Men use URINALS fgs.

Quote:
All over the world there are people who still don't have toilets, and are forced to relieve themselves in ditches and fields. We call them "3rd world conditions" and lament their lack of privacy, safety and sanitation.

But instead of choosing to fight that cause, you want to spend just as much energy and time forcing people here to give those same hard won things up.

Have fun, folks.
Are you fighting the cause of 3rd world bathroom conditions? Or are you fighting the cause of "stop transgenderism, won't someone consider the children!!!"?
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Old 16th August 2017, 03:28 PM   #1177
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And how funny it is when they kill themselves. All over some silly choice.
Could you please expand on how a TG who happens to have mental health issues that result in a their committing suicide, relates to slavery?
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Old 17th August 2017, 01:22 AM   #1178
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Could you please expand on how a TG who happens to have mental health issues that result in a their committing suicide, relates to slavery?
Well, I guess you could read the thread and see what was actually said. It wasn't a direct comparison with slavery, but was giving an example of a situation where compromise was not an option. That is not directly equating the situation of transgender people with slavery. Exception was taken to suggesting that transgender people are choosing to behave as they do. (It's an arguable point; some of their actions clearly are a choice, but the motivation for doing it is not some whim.)
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Old 17th August 2017, 03:06 AM   #1179
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Could you please expand on how a TG who happens to have mental health issues that result in a their committing suicide, relates to slavery?
As you brought it up unprompted in how am I supposed to know that?

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then could you expand on it.

Because I also personally find your comparison of a person who feels they are a different sex and then choses to become that sex, to forced deportation and a life of slavery, knowing you will never see anyone you know ever again and all the other disgusting realitys of what slaves went through, frankly laughable.

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So why did you bring up slavery in a talk about transgender issues and it being a choice? Clearly the abuse and pain suffered doesn't count as reasons behind why transgender people kill themselves a higher rates, so increasing their suffering isn't an issue.

This all despite the fact that it is shown that the more intolerant legislation there is correlates to a rise in suicide.
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Old 17th August 2017, 03:59 AM   #1180
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, I guess you could read the thread and see what was actually said. It wasn't a direct comparison with slavery, but was giving an example of a situation where compromise was not an option. That is not directly equating the situation of transgender people with slavery. Exception was taken to suggesting that transgender people are choosing to behave as they do. (It's an arguable point; some of their actions clearly are a choice, but the motivation for doing it is not some whim.)
For my money that's where the discussion really fell apart. I don't think DragonLady was suggesting that gender self-identification was the "choice" being made, but more the social/behavioural one. For example a transgender woman with a biologically male body choosing to use the women's locker room and showers.

However, the reaction she got was as if she were questioning the right to be transgender at all, or suggesting that it was a choice. As so often happens here, the desire to dispute overcame the need to read carefully and even (gasp!) clarify what another poster means by their comments.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:57 AM   #1181
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
As you brought it up unprompted in how am I supposed to know that?



So why did you bring up slavery in a talk about transgender issues and it being a choice? Clearly the abuse and pain suffered doesn't count as reasons behind why transgender people kill themselves a higher rates, so increasing their suffering isn't an issue.

This all despite the fact that it is shown that the more intolerant legislation there is correlates to a rise in suicide.
I didn't bring it up.

If you bothered to read I was answering the person who DID bring it up.

And I also said the op' is a choice. Which you would also have seen if you bothered to read rather than mislead

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Old 17th August 2017, 07:02 AM   #1182
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I didn't bring it up.

If you bothered to read I was answering the person who DID bring it up.

And I also said the op' is a choice. Which you would also have seen if you bothered to read rather than mislead

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No one made a comparison between slavery and transgendered people not being able to live as their chosen* gender.

Someone said that sometimes compromise isn't an option and when asked for examples of that he mentioned slavery (among other things). That seems quite reasonable to me. This was simply to defend that idea that it is ever the case that compromise isn't an option.

If the discussion were actually reasonable the next step would have been to go on to the question of transgender specifically, but instead Dragonlady jumped on him for having the audacity to mention slavery in the same breath as transgender, and the discussion went off the rails there.

You jumped on that derailed train, and now here we are.

*ETA that's probably a bad choice of words. Mainly it was in my mind because it's actually part of the topic of discussion, specifically it's suggested that they don't have a choice in the matter. Though as zooterkin pointed out they do have some choice about what to do about it, their feelings of gender dysphoria seem to be out of their control, and out of the reach of any medical interventions as well.
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Old 17th August 2017, 09:59 PM   #1183
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
*ETA that's probably a bad choice of words. Mainly it was in my mind because it's actually part of the topic of discussion, specifically it's suggested that they don't have a choice in the matter. Though as zooterkin pointed out they do have some choice about what to do about it, their feelings of gender dysphoria seem to be out of their control, and out of the reach of any medical interventions as well.

There is a treatment that has been shown to be almost completely effective at mitigating most of the problems (and eliminating the largest problem) though. Some other people just don't like it.

It still bothers me that those opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender have just ignored the actual scientific understanding of the topic to focus on appeals to traditions, fear, and incorrect semantics.
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Old 18th August 2017, 12:18 AM   #1184
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
There is a treatment that has been shown to be almost completely effective at mitigating most of the problems (and eliminating the largest problem) though. Some other people just don't like it.
That's a fair point. I guess I was suggesting that there is no known medical intervention that will make someone who feels she is a woman comfortable living as a man.

That isn't to suggest that if such a treatment existed anyone would be obliged to avail themselves of it, only that such a treatment doesn't exist.
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Old 18th August 2017, 01:07 AM   #1185
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post

It still bothers me that those opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender have just ignored the actual scientific understanding of the topic to focus on appeals to traditions, fear, and incorrect semantics.
All the while claiming that they are the ones being rational and scientific about it, and accusing everyone else of holding ideology and feelings to be more important than truth.
Quite ironic.
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Old 18th August 2017, 01:38 AM   #1186
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It still bothers me that those opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender have just ignored the actual scientific understanding of the topic to focus on appeals to traditions, fear, and incorrect semantics.
Another absolutist remark that just uses the highlighted word as if it's incapable of nuance. What about "opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender" in some circumstances, but not others?

An example: if a transgender woman who has a biologically male body applies to enter a women's sports event, is opposition to that "an appeal to traditions, fear, and incorrect semantics", or does it simply recognise that the male body might offer an unfair advantage?
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Old 18th August 2017, 01:57 AM   #1187
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Another absolutist remark that just uses the highlighted word as if it's incapable of nuance. What about "opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender" in some circumstances, but not others?

An example: if a transgender woman who has a biologically male body applies to enter a women's sports event, is opposition to that "an appeal to traditions, fear, and incorrect semantics", or does it simply recognise that the male body might offer an unfair advantage?
Indeed; see the ongoing situation of Caster Semenya; not transgender, but an example showing that male and female are perhaps better viewed as a continuum rather than a strict binary division. Given that the physical distinction is not always clear, why should something more complicated, the way our brains perceive our bodies and gender identification, be any more clear?
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Old 18th August 2017, 03:55 AM   #1188
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Another absolutist remark that just uses the highlighted word as if it's incapable of nuance. What about "opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender" in some circumstances, but not others?

An example: if a transgender woman who has a biologically male body applies to enter a women's sports event, is opposition to that "an appeal to traditions, fear, and incorrect semantics", or does it simply recognise that the male body might offer an unfair advantage?
That seems to be a very uncharitable reading of tyr_13's position, one that puts a lot of words in his mouth that weren't written.

The principle of charity isn't just about being nice. It also helps us to avoid waging wars against straw people which is a waste of time for anyone who is actually interested in the truth.
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Old 18th August 2017, 04:21 AM   #1189
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
That seems to be a very uncharitable reading of tyr_13's position, one that puts a lot of words in his mouth that weren't written.
Fair enough, let's take it apart:

"It still bothers me that those opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender ..."

Where's the nuance there, the shades of grey? It speaks only of 'opposing' and self-identification. Is that all there is to say on the subject?

"... have just ignored the actual scientific understanding of the topic ..."

I see no reference there to some transgender people (for example) retaining their original physical characteristics, ones that might need to be considered in some circumstances (the sports event, the shower room?) In fact true "scientific understanding" might lead one to reject an automatic conferring of rights purely on the basis of gender self-identification.

" ... to focus on appeals to traditions, fear, and incorrect semantics. "

Poisoning the well, whereby any discussion of tricky detail can be hand-waved away. To labour the point - separation of sports events into male/female groups is what in tyr_13's system? Fear? Incorrect semantics? No, it's tradition, but it's a tradition that has its roots in common sense. Without that almost invariable segregation there would be precious little room for women in sport at all.
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Old 18th August 2017, 04:32 AM   #1190
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Fair enough, let's take it apart:


Where's the nuance there, the shades of grey? It speaks only of 'opposing' and self-identification. Is that all there is to say on the subject?
I mean, not every short comment is going to contain every nuance of a person's belief. That would make posting most things prohibitively difficult if you had to erect a bulwark against every possible misinterpretation.
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Old 18th August 2017, 04:45 AM   #1191
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I mean, not every short comment is going to contain every nuance of a person's belief. That would make posting most things prohibitively difficult if you had to erect a bulwark against every possible misinterpretation.
Exactly. In Steven Pinker's newest book The Sense of Style, he actually makes a good case that we shouldn't write in that way.

There are cases where "opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender " is unjustified. Perhaps we can assume that tyr_13 was talking about those cases.

We might think, well, wait, maybe he's talking about all cases. If you are thinking that he might be, the best thing to do at that point is to ask him.
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Old 18th August 2017, 05:10 AM   #1192
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I mean, not every short comment is going to contain every nuance of a person's belief. That would make posting most things prohibitively difficult if you had to erect a bulwark against every possible misinterpretation.
There is a growing pool of people I avoid like the plague because it's always 10 minutes of swatting away a dozen vague insinuations before they are (provisionally) satisfied that the plain, benign reading is the likely intention.

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Old 18th August 2017, 07:29 AM   #1193
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Another absolutist remark that just uses the highlighted word as if it's incapable of nuance. What about "opposing treating transgender people as their identified gender" in some circumstances, but not others?

An example: if a transgender woman who has a biologically male body applies to enter a women's sports event, is opposition to that "an appeal to traditions, fear, and incorrect semantics", or does it simply recognise that the male body might offer an unfair advantage?
I was specifically talking about those posting here (as in in this thread) opposed to treating them as their identified gender (or just acknowledging they don't fit with either of the traditional ones, for even more nuance left out of my short statement) in general or in most cases (or believing it's polite to point out conditions the other person is sure to know they have).

There are a few specific circumstances where it's justified to not treat them as the gender many of their body systems are telling them they are, but they're actually fewer than many people realize. Your example of sports is one where there is actually more than a bit of disagreement in the community. Mine is that there are many medical conditions that prevent people from competing at the highest levels of sport or even in local competition, (I have moronically strong legs and have leg pressed north of 1000lbs on five reps without especially training legs, but I have bad joints) and sadly having a body that doesn't conform to the different brackets should probably be one of them. As you point out, the fact that transwomen would generally have an overwhelming advantage is a problem. At some point that line becomes blurry though. Do we bar biological women who have conditions that let them build muscle like men, even if their skeletal disadvantage remains?

One that was brought up earlier and seems to come up often as a time it's reasonable not to treat transgender people as their identified gender is with sex, but that's actually not the case. Not wanting to have sex with a specific person isn't not* treating them as their gender. Not wanting to have sex with a specific woman doesn't make her any less of a woman.

Another valid example would obviously be with some sex-specific medical issues.

Any case where it's claimed it's more reasonable to treat them as their sex rather than their gender has to stand on it's merits, and many of those instances rely on understanding what the science has told us about transgender people. Anyone basing their analysis of these claims on such misconceptions as 'it's just feelings' is going to have massive flaws in that analysis. As I said before, that those most opposed to treating people as their gender have displayed no interest in the best scientific understanding of the issue is aggravating, but also very telling. Some might have come to the generally correct conclusion using the wrong or incomplete understanding, but others are coming to what I contend are wrong conclusions based on wrong or incomplete understandings.

*Note the intentional double negative.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 18th August 2017 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 18th August 2017, 06:13 PM   #1194
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I was specifically talking about those posting here (as in in this thread) opposed to treating them as their identified gender (or just acknowledging they don't fit with either of the traditional ones, for even more nuance left out of my short statement) in general or in most cases (or believing it's polite to point out conditions the other person is sure to know they have).

There are a few specific circumstances where it's justified to not treat them as the gender many of their body systems are telling them they are, but they're actually fewer than many people realize. Your example of sports is one where there is actually more than a bit of disagreement in the community. Mine is that there are many medical conditions that prevent people from competing at the highest levels of sport or even in local competition, (I have moronically strong legs and have leg pressed north of 1000lbs on five reps without especially training legs, but I have bad joints) and sadly having a body that doesn't conform to the different brackets should probably be one of them. As you point out, the fact that transwomen would generally have an overwhelming advantage is a problem. At some point that line becomes blurry though. Do we bar biological women who have conditions that let them build muscle like men, even if their skeletal disadvantage remains?

One that was brought up earlier and seems to come up often as a time it's reasonable not to treat transgender people as their identified gender is with sex, but that's actually not the case. Not wanting to have sex with a specific person isn't not* treating them as their gender. Not wanting to have sex with a specific woman doesn't make her any less of a woman.

Another valid example would obviously be with some sex-specific medical issues.

Any case where it's claimed it's more reasonable to treat them as their sex rather than their gender has to stand on it's merits, and many of those instances rely on understanding what the science has told us about transgender people. Anyone basing their analysis of these claims on such misconceptions as 'it's just feelings' is going to have massive flaws in that analysis. As I said before, that those most opposed to treating people as their gender have displayed no interest in the best scientific understanding of the issue is aggravating, but also very telling. Some might have come to the generally correct conclusion using the wrong or incomplete understanding, but others are coming to what I contend are wrong conclusions based on wrong or incomplete understandings.

*Note the intentional double negative.
No offence, but I think you are expecting every Joe Bloggs to think about it as deeply as people on here do.

I think your average punter just have whatever basic reaction they have and you can't really expect them to have much else.

Probably didn't explain that very well

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