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Old 12th November 2019, 05:57 PM   #41
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Considering the resounding voices of disapproval against Margaret Court and Israel Folau simply because of the religious views that they express, I'm not so sure.
You mean the hate speech they engage in?
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Old 12th November 2019, 06:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
She's 18, legally an adult. He no longer has the authority to force her to do jack.

As simple as that hey.

Just been listening to a Sam Harris podcast where he interviews Yasmine Mohammed, author of "Leaving the Faith". You would do well to listen to this episode.

Yasmine is living in a Muslim family in a Muslim community in Canada, and you may learn something about her experiences, with regard to the authority of her father and husband. She is 100% on side with Sam Harris regarding the issue of liberal leftish white folk, excusing the actions of Muslim devotees as they bang the drum of tolerance, for peoples of different cultures - especially Muslims.

On another thread I recall you suggesting Muslim women are quite happy wearing their comfy hijabs. Yasmine has something to say about this also about half way through the talk.
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Old 12th November 2019, 06:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
On another thread I recall you suggesting Muslim women are quite happy wearing their comfy hijabs. Yasmine has something to say about this also about half way through the talk.
Once again you have misremembered or misreported something I said.

I said that some Muslim women wear the hijab by choice.
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Old 12th November 2019, 06:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Once again you have misremembered or misreported something I said.

I said that some Muslim women wear the hijab by choice.

I don't think so. The question is about the nature of choice the women have. You also had something to say about the costumes and material, being developed in those hot places and them being comfortable attire. Remember now?

The episode is Making Sense #175.
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Old 12th November 2019, 06:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I don't think so.
I think I know what I think better than your faulty human memory of it.
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Old 12th November 2019, 07:46 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You mean the hate speech they engage in?
Ultimately they are just reciting the bible. Many may consider the bible abhorrent because attitudes have changed over the last 60 years or so but up until then, it was the norm. As far as Margaret Court's devilish CT is concerned, it is consistent with what is written in the bible.

As long as they are not committing or inciting harm against others, one should not be condemned for the religious views they express but that is definitely not the case here.
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Old 12th November 2019, 08:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Ultimately they are just reciting the bible. Many may consider the bible abhorrent because attitudes have changed over the last 60 years or so but up until then, it was the norm. As far as Margaret Court's devilish CT is concerned, it is consistent with what is written in the bible.

As long as they are not committing or inciting harm against others, one should not be condemned for the religious views they express but that is definitely not the case here.
You don't think that telling someone that they are damned by God and will spend eternity being tortured in hell for being who they are causes harm to that person? Have you even looked at the suicide rates of young LGBTQI+ people?
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Old 12th November 2019, 08:31 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I don't think so. The question is about the nature of choice the women have. You also had something to say about the costumes and material, being developed in those hot places and them being comfortable attire. Remember now?

The episode is Making Sense #175.
There are some women who of their own free will have converted to Islam and as part of their new belief structure happily wear a hijab.

Of course there were also some women who of their own free followed Charles Manson. The human mind is a curious thing.
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:14 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think I know what I think better than your faulty human memory of it.
My "faulty human memory" now is it?

From the thread "Islam. How Do We Cope?"

Your words post #542;

Quote:
Just think about this for one moment. Where in the world did these garments originate? What are the ambient temperatures like in that part of the world? These garments are designed to not be hot. They developed from desert wear.
And

Quote:
I can't see how a hijab restricts vision at all. The niqab maybe a little bit, but I'd say hardly at all. And we're not talking about the burqa.

Then again in post #544

Quote:
It's all in the fabric and the design of such garments, which are found all over the middle east. I've worn something like it on hot days. The keffiyeh is quite comfortable in the heat, even when drawn across the face and nose to protect from dust, because the cloth itself is quite light and airy - almost see-through (at least, the one I wore was). Of course, I have no personal experience of wearing a niqab. Nothing in my experience, however, suggests that it is particularly uncomfortable to wear.

You would find some enlightenment on this issue if you would listen to the podcast I referred you to. Yasmine has some things to say about the comfort of wearing these garments and the voluntary wearing of same.
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You don't think that telling someone that they are damned by God and will spend eternity being tortured in hell for being who they are causes harm to that person? Have you even looked at the suicide rates of young LGBTQI+ people?
Have you? Do you know how many committed suicide because they heard a fire and brimstone preacher?
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
There are some women who of their own free will have converted to Islam and as part of their new belief structure happily wear a hijab.

Of course there were also some women who of their own free followed Charles Manson. The human mind is a curious thing.

Curious indeed.

Be interesting to know how many women have converted to Islam "of their own free will" and the circumstances surrounding the conversion. Women can be so vulnerable in some situations.
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:25 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you? Do you know how many committed suicide because they heard a fire and brimstone preacher?

Well I certainly have and if you have not become aware of it, you must have been living under a rock in recent years. Have you really not heard of the "gay conversion" thing that has been in the news of late?
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:37 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
My "faulty human memory" now is it?

From the thread "Islam. How Do We Cope?"
What you have quoted is a far cry from "suggesting Muslim women are quite happy wearing their comfy hijabs".
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:41 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I certainly have and if you have not become aware of it, you must have been living under a rock in recent years. Have you really not heard of the "gay conversion" thing that has been in the news of late?
So you don't know how many either.
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Old 12th November 2019, 09:56 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What you have quoted is a far cry from "suggesting Muslim women are quite happy wearing their comfy hijabs".

Not much. I suggest once again you listen to the podcast.
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Old 12th November 2019, 10:00 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you don't know how many either.

The recent articles on the subject suggest it is quite high but no, short of conducting a survey, I can't give you a precise figure.
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Old 12th November 2019, 10:10 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you? Do you know how many committed suicide because they heard a fire and brimstone preacher?
Educate yourself.

Start with the statistics. Then you can start looking at the causes. Turns out, the largest cause is bullying and gay-bashing. And the people who bully and gay-bash? Turns out a lot of them are religious!

Quote:
Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT).[1][2][3] It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and ignorance, and is often related to religious beliefs.[4][5]
Despite your denials, there is a direct line from comments such as those made by Falau and Court and the suicide of LGBTQI+ youths.
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Old 12th November 2019, 11:53 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Educate yourself.

Start with the statistics. Then you can start looking at the causes. Turns out, the largest cause is bullying and gay-bashing. And the people who bully and gay-bash? Turns out a lot of them are religious!



Despite your denials, there is a direct line from comments such as those made by Falau and Court and the suicide of LGBTQI+ youths.
That Wikipedia link is short on any direct links between comments by the religious and suicides by gays.

Even when it comes to the causes of homophobia (the actual problem), its information is more speculative than factual.
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Old Yesterday, 02:29 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would have said that the majority of us hold no prejudice against theists.

Some of them would say that they hate the religion but not the religious people,.

Then they would be wrong. Religion exists entirely in the minds of the religious and is perpetuated entirely by their thoughts.


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Old Yesterday, 05:12 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by deverett View Post
Then they would be wrong. Religion exists entirely in the minds of the religious and is perpetuated entirely by their thoughts.
I agree.
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Old Yesterday, 05:41 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would have said that the majority of us hold no prejudice against theists.

Some of them would say that they hate the religion but not the religious people, but I have argued that it amounts to the same thing. There is disagreement.
Originally Posted by deverett View Post
Then they would be wrong. Religion exists entirely in the minds of the religious and is perpetuated entirely by their thoughts.


Dave Everett

Not altogether sure what you are saying here Dave.

Arth and I have been having this squabble for some time now with me saying I am antitheism but not antitheist. No hatred for the theist in me.

Arth compares my attitude to that of the faithful with their claims of "hate the sin, love the sinner". He seems to think he has scored some points by comparing my position to that of the faithful. Desperate measures.

Greater minds than mine have compared religion to a virus - Richard Dawkins is one. A meme is another word that can be used. Passed from one person to the next - the passer most often the parent.

I have a nephew and nieces thus afflicted and hatred for them I have not. A good friend of mine at my club is an ex Pentecostal preacher. Now an atheist. I'm sure he was a nice guy when a preacher ...... just infected.
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Old Yesterday, 06:06 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That Wikipedia link is short on any direct links between comments by the religious and suicides by gays.

Even when it comes to the causes of homophobia (the actual problem), its information is more speculative than factual.
Do I have to draw the line for you? The link is direct, and well-established in the suicide prevention field.

Studies have shown that LGBTQI+ people are bullied, victimised and discriminated against more than straight cis people are. They have more mental health problems like depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation than straight cis people do. These are all risk factors for suicide. This is well-established in the literature, generally accepted by a majority of mental health professionals, and isn't hard to find evidence for.

It is also well-known that religious people are far less accepting of LGBTQI+ people, and there is a lot of evidence for religious people speaking and acting in ways that are clearly discriminatory. That isn't hard to find either.

Not all cases of bullying and persecution are religiously motivated, but it is very, very clear that some are. Religious people are known to engage in speech and behaviour that is known to lead to known risk factors for suicide, and this is demonstrated in the known suicide rates in the LGBTQI+ community. This is as clear as anything can be.

You don't have to be a genius to draw a direct line from statements such as those made by Folau and Court to LGBTIQ+ youth suicide. And while it would be difficult to link one specific young person's suicide with one specific statement - you can't exactly ask a suicide victim what pushed them over the edge - such statements collectively make up the culture that causes the problem.

The connection is clear. If you are using logic and reason, rather than ideology, it is impossible to deny.
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Old Yesterday, 11:37 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Studies have shown that LGBTQI+ people are bullied, victimised and discriminated against more than straight cis people are.
Well DUH!

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You don't have to be a genius to draw a direct line from statements such as those made by Folau and Court to LGBTIQ+ youth suicide.
No, you just need a very active imagination.

Do you really think that if we could prevent the likes of Court and Folau saying what they believe that the bullying would stop?
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Old Today, 12:00 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Ultimately they are just reciting the bible.

Quote:
Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
Quote:
Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
Quote:
You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.
Quote:
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
But hey, I'm not committing or inciting harm against others - just reciting the Bible!
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Old Today, 12:16 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Not all cases of bullying and persecution are religiously motivated, but it is very, very clear that some are.
But is the religion motivating the persecution, or is the persecution motivating the religion? Why are certain passages in the Bible taken seriously by the persecutors, but others aren't?

Religions don't hate gays, people do. And people who hate gays use their religion as an excuse - a religion that they molded to fit their prejudices. You can be a Christian without hating gays. If you still do then it's because you want to, not your religion.
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Old Today, 12:42 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But hey, I'm not committing or inciting harm against others - just reciting the Bible!
Yep, and the chances of anybody doing these things just because you recited the bible are not very high.
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