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Tags rick rajter , steven jones , holocaust denial , dresden , christopher bollyn , 911 conspiracy theory

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Old 12th April 2007, 12:23 PM   #1
Sword_Of_Truth
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Steven Jones vs. The Nazis

I posted a series of questions regarding his appearant poor choice of friends to Steven Jones over at Screw Loose Change and JamesB was actually able to get the good professor to take a look at them.

This is the first time that I am aware of that Jones has directly addressed the issue of Holocaust denial and 9-11 twoof.

He seems eager for a response from me, wich I have not done yet, but I am presenting what we have so far.

Quote:
Quote:
Dr. Jones:

Were you aware that Rick Rajter was a Holocaust denier when you endorsed his 911myths rebuttal, specifically his analysis of jewish businesman, Larry Silverstiens finances?
NO. Indeed, what evidence do you have that Rick is a Holocaust denier? Because of this charge, I am cc'ing this to Rick to see what he has to say about it.

Quote:
Were you aware at the time of your interview by Christopher Bollyn that he himself is a Holocaust denier and that the publication he worked for is a neo-nazi newspaper?
No. I will BCC Christopher also to see if he agrees with your allegations -- since you have offered no substantiation.

Quote:
Were you aware when you agreed to appear at the recent "9-11 Accountability" conference, that its chief organizer at the time, Eric D. Williams, is a Holocaust denier?
No, absolutely not.

Quote:
Were you aware at any time prior to your own appearance at the conference, that the reason Alex Jones and the makers of "Loose Change" withdrew from it, was due to Mr. Williams ties to neo-naziism?
No -- further, this charge of neo-naziism with respect to Eric Williams is unsubstantiated and I don't believe it is true. I had heard the allegation that Eric was a "holocaust denier" -- at the press conference as I recall-- but Eric said this was not true. Pls send Mr. Williams' email address or other contact information so we can ask him what he says about your allegations.

Quote:
If the answer to any or all of the above questions is "yes", how do you, as a Latter-Day Saint, especially given the tragic early history of our own faith, reconcile your association with these people with the 11th Article of Faith and President Hinckleys recent conference addresses on racism?
All answers were No, above. Also, I am not a racist and I support Pres. Hinckley's statement -- April 2006 conference as I recall.

Quote:
Do you believe that someone who feels compelled to lie about the Holocaust out of his own hatred for jews can be trusted to come up with an unbiased assessment of wether a jewish person is guilty of major felonies?
No.

Quote:
Do you trust people who lie about crimes committed out of religious bigotry in europe 70 years ago to never lie about similar crimes committed in Missourri and Illinois 170 years ago?
No, but I don't know of any such people who lie about both of these topics -- do you? And can you substantiate your allegations?

As I wrote in a recently-completed paper (not yet published):
Let us be active and proactive – we can reduce our dependence on the globalized system, get out of debt and put reserves into local credit unions. We can reduce or end credit-card consumerism and build home reserves of food, cash and water. We need to look to our inner values; instead of fearing terrorists (foreign and domestic). We can build cooperation, sharing, and caring as we build the local infrastructure in our communities. We can rally around the Constitution in the United States, and the Geneva Conventions, and other standards of civility and human liberty throughout the world. I advocate only peaceful methods and a respect for all religious and ethnic groups, including Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and all others.

I am confident that by working together and seeking the facts with determination, we will succeed in finding the truth about 9/11. If we act before the next series of restrictions on our liberties, we should be able to achieve justice and peace as well. Those are great goals. (See: http://journalof911studies.com/lette...even-jones.pdf)


I ask that you post my answers above IN FULL wherever the questions were posed, and that you disclose your actual name if it is not H*****. James, you may also post my answers if you would.
Please inform me as soon as my answers have been posted, and where they are posted.

Thank you,

Steven J
There you have it. Dr. Jones denies all knowledge of the deniers. Despite my usual lack of patience for the whack-job crowd, I'm willing to take Jones at his word for now.

He appears to be more a crappy fact-checker than a crappy person... wich of course we already were aware of.

By way of explanation; there are a couple of "insider" references above about the church and it's history. The 11th Article of Faith I referred to above was written by the founder of the LDS church and states simply "We claim the privelege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of thier conscience and allow all men the same privelege. Let them worship how where or what they may." The current leader of the church, Gordon B. Hinckley, made a public address at the April 2006 General Conference condemning racism.

The rather rocky early history of the LDS church is well known. The LDS church is not unique in having had a rough start, or that it continues to have rather aggressive detractors. But our religion is still young enough that the trials of the early saints still form a major part of our church lore.

A member of a religion that spends a significant amount of time discussing injustices done to their ancestors has no business appearing to endorse the beliefs of people like Rajter, Williams et al.
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Old 12th April 2007, 01:19 PM   #2
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Rick Rajter has replied to Jones's forwarding of the original e-mail:

Quote:
Replying as briefly as possible:


First. I'm unaware that Dr. Jones has endorsed my 911myths rebuttal considering I do not think it was ever actually published anywhere. Sure he mentioned it in passing in a conference, but that is all that ever came of it. The only mention of it is at the 911 smear site
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...-11-truth.html


In which they mention is it is being prepared, but again... where is this information posted? Google can't even find it
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...rajter&spell=1
So as far as I'm aware, this analysis is still hidden behind closed doors because it was never published anyway.






Proceeding onward.
-Regarding the "holocaust denier" charge. Just like 9/11, most of the official holocaust lore is propaganda. That doesn't mean all of it was a lie, certainly. Just as Bollyn so eloquently stated. There were camps and people did die, and I'm sure the conditions were not easy... just like the Russian Gulags where millions of people died. But the whole gas chamber business and 6 million numbers have also been refuted by scientists (for example, Leuchter and Rudolph) and other expert witnesses. So since they can't prove it, why should I take their word for it? After all, science trumps emotion. But I guess I should be slandered as a "9/11 Denier" too. And no. Just because I hold these conclusions does not mean I "hate jews" and all the crap. That's just emotional ad hominem intended to distract from the debate and onto such things as "oh how horrible could this person be"
-Next, Bollyn no longer works for AFP, so this person doesn't appear to be with the times.


It seems Mr. Bennett is bent on making me out to look like some evil and hateful person. In fact, it no longer bothers me that the holocaust, 9/11, WACO, etc were all mostly lies and the like. I've done my research and will gladly debate toe to toe with anyone in a civilized debate forum. But I doubt that is what Mr. Bennett really wants.


Let me ruin your fun Mr. Bennett. Dr. Jones and I are not "buddies" and the like... so I can care less if you turn him against me with such claims.


If Dr. Jones would like to hear my case out rather than jump to conclusions, I'll gladly chat with him in private. For some reason, I have a sneaking suspicion that this whole email was just intended for me to say something else regarding the tired holocaust subject, so that it can be posted again to "conspiracy smasher" or the like to have some good ole fashion holocaust denier bashing fun. It's a boring game, and I don't intend to play beyond this email.




With all that said. I hold no resentment for your opinions of me and the like. I realize that there are some things that just seem to crazy to believe. That happened to me when I first heard of 9/11 conspiracy theories, and it continues to this day. If you or anyone can't accept that parts of history might be a bit off, that's your choice. I will continue to search for the truth, and if I'm wrong, will eventually figure it out. That's the beauty of revisionism. I can only hope everyone else strives to find the truth as well, regardless of its consequences.


Take care,


-Rick
Reply x2:

Quote:
One quick clarification.

I agree whole heartedly with the reasoning of Bollyn's email. If I
have not scene evidence or legitimate analysis to prove any claim,
how could I support it? Sure I could believe 9/11 was carried about
by Muslims... but if all the evidence (when you look beyond the
NIST, 911 commission report, ect) show just the exact opposite...
what exactly would I be "denying"

But alas. That's not the point. The point is I "should know better"
about such a topic. Let's not talk about evidence or analysis, let's
talk about the number of movies out or the number of claims that say
otherwise. It's all boring, because it's mostly speculation with no
substance. The real science has already been done and that is what I
stick to.

So again, I'm sorry if that offends you, but I would rather stick to
what I know what is true and be offensive than lie to myself to win
the affection of random people on the internet.

-Rick
I have not received a copy of the Bollyn e-mail Rajter refers to.
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Old 12th April 2007, 01:28 PM   #3
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Oops... Bollyns response got caught by my spam blocker. Here it is:

Quote:
From: Christopher Bollyn
To: Prof. Steven E. Jones
Re: Allegations of anti-Semitism

Dear Professor Jones,

Thank you for allowing me to respond to these vicious allegations. Here is what this person charged in his email note to you:

Were you aware at the time of your interview by Christopher Bollyn that he himself is a Holocaust denier and that the publication he worked for is a neo-nazi newspaper?

No. I will BCC Christopher also to see if he agrees with your allegations -- since you have offered no substantiation.


Here I am accused of being a "Holocaust denier" and working for a "neo-nazi newspaper."

I am not an expert on the history of World War II, but I have visited several important sites of the war. For example I spent one month in Dresden in February-March 2004, where I lived at a small hotel on the grounds of Slaughterhouse 5.

Dresden is known for being the city that was incinerated on February 13-14, 1945. I have met with several eyewitnesses to this holocaust in which an estimated 600,000 people perished in a fireball that melted the streets and boiled the water in the river Elbe.

The Anglo-American fire-bombing of Dresden was truly a holocaust - a human sacrifice in fire of immense proportions.

My article about the Dresden holocaust with photographs of victims of the bombing is here:

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Kuklane...eyewitness.pdf

My "Letter from Dresden" of February 2004 is here:

http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10406

I am certainly not a holocaust denier. I have met the eyewitnesses from Dresden and seen the evidence with my own eyes. Today, with no small amount of regret, I am sorry to see that Kurt Vonnegut died at age 84. Vonnegut made a great impression on me with his book, Slaughterhouse 5 - The Children's Crusade, in which he described the fire-bombing of Dresden which he had survived, as a P.O.W., in the deep meat cellar of Slaughterhouse 5.
I had very much wanted to meet Vonnegut but have been unable to do so due to my recent setbacks.

I understand that the person calling me a "Holocaust denier" is probably not at all concerned with the fire-bombing of Dresden that took the lives of more than a half-million people in one terrible night. This person is probably claiming that I "deny" that Jewish prisoners were burned in large numbers in huge ovens in German concentration camps during WWII.

Having visited several of these former camps at Auschwitz, Dachau, and Buchenwald, all I can say is that I have not seen any evidence of these large ovens in which Jewish prisoners are said to have been burned. I did visit the crematoria at all three camps and saw that they comprised 6 single-body cremation ovens. It has been many years since I visited Dachau so my recollection of the crematoria there is not as clear as the other two camps.

I don't deny that many Jews were held as prisoners in these camps, and that many died in these camps, but they were certainly not the only group of people who suffered in these camps. At Auschwitz, for example, I know that many of the prisoners were Roman Catholics. The Nazi regime held many political prisoners of different nationalities in their concentration camps.

As I said, I have not seen at these three former camps any evidence of any large oven in which hundreds of people could be gassed or burned. Nor, have I seen any photographs or physical evidence of such an oven. I don't see how this could make me a denier of anything. One can only deny by refusing to acknowledge something that one has seen the evidence of. I have looked for the evidence of these huge gas chambers and crematoria and not found it in the places they are said to have existed. That does not make me a holocaust denier.

I certainly don't deny that millions of people perished in the war and that many Jews are among the dead. Nor do I deny that hundreds of thousands of innocent lives were sacrificed in fire. I know that one holocaust in particular - the largest massacre in Europe - happened because I have seen the evidence with my own eyes - in Dresden.

As Kurt Vonnegut told the BBC, he had witnessed the largest massacre in European history in Dresden. The fire-bombing of Dresden is the only real holocaust in Europe that I have seen the evidence of. From Dresden I have heard the testimony of eyewitnesses and seen the photographs to prove that hundreds of thousands of innocent people were consumed entirely by fire in Dresden on Ash Wednesday 1945. I know that other German and Japanese cities suffered similar fire-bombings but Dresden is the only one I have personal knowledge of.

I was an independent contractor with the American Free Press when I interviewed you in 2006. This newspaper never published anything that I could see that could be described as "neo-Nazi," nor did it ever print anything that could be described as "anti-Semitic." It should be noted that I was attacked by police thugs shortly after I interviewed you and sacked by this newspaper after 6 years of working for it.

This paper withheld the money they had collected for my legal defense fund and refused to reimburse me for the money I had spent visiting you in Provo. People associated with AFP have subsequently carried on a relentless campaign to discredit me. The have accused me of spreading lies in my articles and "disloyalty." I certainly don't get much sympathy from AFP, wherever its sympathies or agenda lie.

I hope this helps clear up my position on this allegation. I am sorry that you have to put up with such an inquisition.

Best wishes,

Christopher Bollyn
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Old 12th April 2007, 02:54 PM   #4
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Jones didn't notice all those fellow twoofers backing out of the Williams fiasco?

Wow. Talk about being out of the loop

We know more about his buddies than he does!
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Old 12th April 2007, 02:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
I understand that the person calling me a "Holocaust denier" is probably not at all concerned with the fire-bombing of Dresden that took the lives of more than a half-million people in one terrible night.
Bollyn's even outdoing the Nazis themselves on this one.

From Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/bombing...ld-war-ii?ff=1)

Quote:
There have been higher estimates for the number of dead, ranging as high as 300,000. They are from disputed and unreliable sources, such as the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda headed by Joseph Goebbels, Soviet historians, and David Irving, the once popular but now discredited self-taught historian[33] who retracted his higher estimates.[34] Both the Columbia Encyclopedia and Encarta Encyclopedia list the number as "from 35,000 to more than 135,000 dead", the higher figure of which is in line with Irving's incorrect retracted estimates.
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Old 12th April 2007, 03:07 PM   #6
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I am assuming that Mr. Bollyn visited the sites of Auschwitz, Buchenwald and Dachau after the Nazis blew up the crematoria in an effort to hide what had been happening there.
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Old 12th April 2007, 03:26 PM   #7
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This should be rather eye opening for Jones.
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Old 12th April 2007, 03:29 PM   #8
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I'm saving this response, that's about the highest claimed Dresden death toll ever.

Just to put this lunatic assertion in context, here's a selection of Dresden estimates from Holocaust deniers:


Enrst Zündel: 300,000 dead no source

Heinrich Härtle: 300,000 dead
Jürgen Graf: 250,000 dead, cites Irving an edition that claims 135,000 dead

Emil Aretz, 1970: 202,000 dead, cites TB 47, claims Irving underestimated

IHR: 200,000 dead no source
Richard Harwood, Did Six Million Really Die? cites Irving’s 135,000


which makes Bollyn even more idiotic than the biggest idiots listed above. The actual Dresden death toll was approximately 35,000.
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Old 12th April 2007, 03:32 PM   #9
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Just to point out Jim Hoffman (A truther) brought out the same problems long ago with Christopher Bollyn.

http://911review.com/denial/holocaust.html
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Old 12th April 2007, 03:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by thinkingaboutit View Post
This should be rather eye opening for Jones.
Doubtful. All he probably read was:

Quote:
I am certainly not a holocaust denier.
After all, Jones refused to have his eyes opend to the fact that a thermite reaction doesn't continue for weeks.
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Old 12th April 2007, 03:56 PM   #11
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Everyone knows the Dresden bombings didn't happen.


That aside, those two characters show the standard MO for any denier, including the emphazising of the Dresden bombings, and calling Leuchter an "expert witness".

Any word as to how Jones reacted to these replies?

/S

Last edited by Panoply_Prefect; 12th April 2007 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 12th April 2007, 05:27 PM   #12
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Gee, Rajter really does not like me. He mentions my name repeatedly, and I didn't even say anything.
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Old 12th April 2007, 07:36 PM   #13
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Yeah, I wrote the Rick Rajter posts! James B is just my CIA handler!

I do find it amusing that both Rajter and Bollyn claim they are not Holocaust Deniers and then immediate undercut themselves by denying the number, the method and the plan. That's the trifecta of Holocaust Denial.

Rajter apparently can't read. My original post on him pointed out that Jones claimed he (Rajter) was working on a rebuttal of 9-11 Myths. Unfortunately Jones' claim was on the BYU website so it's no longer available there. Does Jones deny that he once made such a claim? This appears to be the only point that Rajter makes that is beneficial to Jones. I would encourage Dr Jones to look at the PDF in question; the filename was AnsQJones1.pdf, Page #24. I would hope it is not necessary to encourage Dr Jones to be honest and admit that he never should have cited this individual.
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Old 12th April 2007, 09:15 PM   #14
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The AnsQJones file had undergone numerous revisions as Jones added stuff to it.

The last version I saw had the Rajter reference on page 30-something.

A google search for the file name brings up nothing but dead links to the BYU site.
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Old 12th April 2007, 09:59 PM   #15
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It's interesting how someone can specifically deny engaging in denying the Holocaust and immediately trot out a load of standard-issue boilerplate (Leuchter, Rudolf, and the ad hom tu quoque of the Dresden bombing) which is diagnostic of a Holocaust denier and probable neo-Nazi in the same way that a bloody splintered bone end protruding from the flesh is diagnostic of a compound fracture.

Is this what "cognitive dissonance" means?

I wonder if Jones is familiar enough with the subject to recognize the significance of those non-denial denials.
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Old 13th April 2007, 02:44 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by SLOB View Post

Ah, the Mad Revisionist. Truly a gentleman, as I can personally testify, having met him, though he will of course deny this.

My favourite debunking of his was this one:
  • Yes, it is true. At the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History, right in the heart of Washington, D.C., paid for by our tax dollars, there is an entire exhibit dedicated solely to dinosaurs. How many brave, mammalian Americans spilled their warm blood for this country and its values so that we could be forced to put up with a monument to lizards - who weren't even Americans - right in the middle of our nation's capital? How did the federal government allow the creation of such a monstrosity? What is its meaning for American policy and for American values? And what must the American people do to regain control of the land their servants in Washington handed over to a foreign interest, and to establish an enterprise thereon, whether a museum or otherwise, informed by and conducted according to American principles and interests?

    We were victorious in the struggle for natural selection, yet all you hear these days are lizards whining about how extinct they are. I don't see any museum to the dodo, and he's just as extinct. How may strains of rainforest vegetation have vanished from the earth - yet has there been even one movie, let alone a sequel? (Jurassic park was produced by the same man who gave us Schindler's List... coincidence?)
    Dinosaur museums are nothing more than monuments to amphibian arrogance. All of the great accomplishments of Western civilization were undertaken by mammals. Whereas, a disproportionate number of the leaders and agitators of the Bolshevik revolution were lizards.* There is no reason why we primates should be expected to contribute our land and our tax dollars to such a monstrosity. I call on all warm-blooded Americans to resist the use of public lands and funds towards the glorification of this one tiny special interest group. Enough is enough. Primate pride, worldwide!
* granted, most were not, themselves, practicing lizards, but revisionist research can show that almost all had at least some amphibian in their line of evolutionary descent.

http://www.revisionism.nl/Dinosaur/T...evisionist.htm

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Old 13th April 2007, 07:38 AM   #17
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******** Bollyn didn't work for a neo-nazi rag:
http://arkanwolfshade.spaces.live.co...A35D!246.entry

Bollyn was a contract reporter for AFP (American Free PressWP). AFP used to be known as 'The SpotlightWP' and was published by 'Liberty LobbyWP'. Liberty Lobby and Spotlight were founded by Willis CartoWP.
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Old 13th April 2007, 11:29 AM   #18
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"I'm not a Holocaust denier, I just don't think it happened"

Hmm...
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Old 13th April 2007, 01:51 PM   #19
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Any response from Jones?
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Old 13th April 2007, 02:22 PM   #20
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No further response from Jones as of yet.

JamesB copied to me a number of e-mails where in he discussed my questions with Jones leading Jones to ask to speak with me directly. In them Dr. Jones mentions a leaving for Texas early thursday morning. He might be delayed in replying.
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Old 13th April 2007, 08:53 PM   #21
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I think I hurt my brain reading those responses
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Old 13th April 2007, 09:37 PM   #22
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Perhaps someone could put together a letter with clippings from Bollyn's ravings and mail it to Steven Jones? As a conspiracy theorist, he may have that 'blind faith' leaning toward other conspiracy theorists. If Jones realizes it (Bollyn being full of fertilizer) for himself, he can't reject the information as a 'skeptic' attack.
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Old 16th April 2007, 08:46 AM   #23
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*bump*

Any further reply?
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Old 16th April 2007, 11:04 AM   #24
Sword_Of_Truth
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Not yet.

Bill Giltner, a twoofer who regularly whines about how unfair SLC is, posted yesterday that he is at a twoofer gathering in Texas where Steven Jones is about to present shocking new evidence (read "old, rehashed, recycled with slightly different packaging") that thermite was used to bring down the towers.

There are not as yet any reports of large crosses at this conference collapsing solely due to fire.
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Old 16th April 2007, 01:29 PM   #25
NoZed Avenger
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
There are not as yet any reports of large crosses at this conference collapsing solely due to fire.

If the Pith Award is stil around for April, that is SO nominated.

You truly deserve to take the Pith in April.
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