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Old 17th June 2007, 06:55 PM   #1
Cactus Wren
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MSNBC/Self article: dangers of chiropractic

Deadly twist at the chiropractor's office

Quote:
Dr. Kazmi examined her only a few minutes before he escorted her across the street to Montefiore Medical Center, where doctors took scans of her neck and brain. “Christa is lucky to be alive,” he says. “I knew the moment I saw her that she had had a stroke.” And he is convinced that the stroke was caused by Heck’s neck adjustment, which tore a critical artery that keeps blood flowing to the brain. “I see at least two cases like this or worse a year,” Dr. Kazmi says. “Cervical manipulation is a preposterous thing to do, and it should be banned.”
As has been pointed out more than once. But it's nice to see it getting some mainstream media attention.

Quote:
In December 2006, Rachelle Smith, a 32-year-old mother of five in Olathe, Kansas, settled a case with her chiropractor for undisclosed damages and $70,000 in medical costs. She says that when she began to vomit after a neck adjustment — a sign of what would turn out to be a stroke — the chiropractor assured her that her body was simply “releasing toxins.”
Quote:
Kristi Alaine Bedenbaugh, 24, of Little Mountain, South Carolina, died in 1993 three days after a cervical manipulation for a sinus headache and a few months before her wedding. In 1998 in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, 20-year-old restaurant supervisor Laurie Jean Mathiason fell into a coma on her chiropractor’s table minutes after a neck manipulation she received for a tailbone injury; she was dead three days later.
Of course they have to give some space in the article to the chiwoopractors themselves, who say the dangers are "overplayed" and strokes are "phenomenally rare". But:
Quote:
Statistically speaking, taking aspirin or another nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug for pain is potentially far more toxic than getting one’s neck cracked; NSAIDs account for about 7,500 deaths per year, according to researchers from Stanford University in California. The difference is that aspirin is a scientifically proven pain reliever, and neck manipulation is not, says Brad Stewart, M.D., a neurologist in Edmonton, Alberta, with a special interest in chiropractic stroke.

“The expectation of benefit is almost negligible. The risk, though small, is very real,” says Dr. Stewart, one of whose patients had part of her brain removed after a cervical manipulation mangled both of her vertebral arteries. “You can’t predict who this will happen to, and for that reason alone, it just shouldn’t be done.”
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Old 17th June 2007, 07:18 PM   #2
strathmeyer
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Yikes. We can always pretend to live in a sane world, but I still see chiropractic offices everywhere.
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Old 17th June 2007, 07:32 PM   #3
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I've been under chiropractic care numerous times for over 30 years. In my (and family) case it has proven to be most helpful.

Now do a search for 'orthopedic surgery negligence'.

Lots of those offices everywhere too.
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Old 17th June 2007, 07:54 PM   #4
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Chiropractic can be helpful for lower back problems. But there's no evidence it has any benefit for the cervical spine. And no evidence it can release "toxins", improve eyesight, help with reproductive problems, cure autism or any of the other crackpot stuff claimed by chiropractors.
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Old 17th June 2007, 11:45 PM   #5
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The two problems with comparing chiropractic to conventional medicine are:
  • "chiropractic" covers a wide range of treatments, from the very credible physiotherapy analogue on the one hand, all the way to body aura manipulation. Orthopedic surgery is quite specific.
  • The risky manoevre in question is cervical manipulation. There is not a shred of evidence that it has a benefit (ie: cervical manipulation is all risk with no benefit), whereas orthopedic surgery is only indicated when the benefits outweigh the risks.
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Old 18th June 2007, 03:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Statistically speaking, taking aspirin or another nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug for pain is potentially far more toxic than getting one’s neck cracked; NSAIDs account for about 7,500 deaths per year, according to researchers from Stanford University in California. The difference is that aspirin is a scientifically proven pain reliever, and neck manipulation is not, says Brad Stewart, M.D., a neurologist in Edmonton, Alberta, with a special interest in chiropractic stroke.
There’s also this to consider:

Quote:
In letters to various media, Mills [Dr. Daryl D. Wills, ACA President] has claimed that chiropractic treatment is safer than nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), which are capable of producing serious side effects. However, this has not been studied scientifically, and a true comparison would have to take many factors into account:

**No prospective randomized trial conclusively demonstrates that chiropractic management reduces the incidence of serious NSAID complications, such as fatal gastrointestinal bleeding. NSAIDs taken at recommended doses for a short time are generally very low-risk for appropriately selected patients -- particularly the relatively young not on corticosteriods, anticoagulants, alcohol or tobacco and without a history of ulcers or severe comorbid illness.

**Many patients continue to take NSAIDs while undergoing spinal manipulation. Moreover, spinal manipulation can frequently cause an exacerbation of pain, which might cause some patients to increase or initiate NSAID therapy. [Ernst E. Prospective investigations into the safety of spinal manipulation. Journal of Pain and Symptom Management, 21(3): 238-242, March 2001].

**Herbal recommendations seem to be common among DCs; some remedies have actions similar to NSAIDs, while others directly affect bleeding per se . A recent set of reports by the North American Spine Society includes an 18-page reference chart listing approximately 70 herbs with their uses, potential side effects, and (known) potential interactions.

http://www.chirobase.org/18CND/03/03-03.html

(My bold)
It’s also worth remembering that packets of NSAIDs contain patient information leaflets detailing risks. Not all chiropractors warn patients about the risks associated with manipulative treatment:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...&dopt=Abstract

Originally Posted by David Rodale View Post
I've been under chiropractic care numerous times for over 30 years. In my (and family) case it has proven to be most helpful.
Dave, it’s good to hear that you and your family have found chiropractic to be helpful over the years. As many chiropractors push the “family care” line, do you know of any available scientific evidence for the treatment that this chiropractor is administering to a three-month old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JY7lUw4vu0
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Old 18th June 2007, 03:42 AM   #7
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I've had back problems before and found that not going to a chiropractor made it go away. And I didn't go to a doctor either. Bodies have a habit of fixing themselves.
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Old 18th June 2007, 09:13 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
The two problems with comparing chiropractic to conventional medicine are:
  • "chiropractic" covers a wide range of treatments, from the very credible physiotherapy analogue on the one hand, all the way to body aura manipulation. Orthopedic surgery is quite specific.
  • The risky manoevre in question is cervical manipulation. There is not a shred of evidence that it has a benefit (ie: cervical manipulation is all risk with no benefit), whereas orthopedic surgery is only indicated when the benefits outweigh the risks.
You also don't see too many people claiming that orthopedic surgery is with out risk, but all kinds of chiropracters make that claim.
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Old 18th June 2007, 09:29 AM   #9
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Since we're comparing, let's compare the success rates of chiropractic vs orthopedic surgery, grouping like illnesses.

What, chiropractic has never fixed a brokenspine? No multiple complex fractures of the femur? Flail chests? Shattered skull?

Hmmm....makes you wonder about those risk factors, doesn't it? Compare traditional treatment of non-fracture, non-acute back and neck pain and you might have something. To look at ortho's total rate, including those cases of emergency treatment for massive trauma, seems a bit biased.
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Old 18th June 2007, 10:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
Chiropractic can be helpful for lower back problems. But there's no evidence it has any benefit for the cervical spine. And no evidence it can release "toxins", improve eyesight, help with reproductive problems, cure autism or any of the other crackpot stuff claimed by chiropractors.

There doesn't seem to be much evidence that chiropractic is particularly helpful for anything.
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Old 18th June 2007, 10:43 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
It’s also worth remembering that packets of NSAIDs contain patient information leaflets detailing risks. Not all chiropractors warn patients about the risks associated with manipulative treatment

There's also the issue of the reporting (or lack of reporting) of adverse events. Edzard Ernst's team studied Neurological complications of cervical spine manipulation. According to a talk he gave to the Medico-Legal Society (published in the Medico-Legal Journal Vol. 74 p. 56),
Quote:
We have conducted a survey with all British neurologists. We had a very good response rate. Most of them participated, and we asked them whether they had seen any neurological complications after upper spinal manipulation within a year's time, and this discovered 35 cases, including 9 strokes and other serious complications after chiropractic. Now 35 cases is not a lot, chiropractors would say, and I hope there is a chiropractor here, because I like discussions, and particularly heated ones. I would disagree, because we then looked these cases up and traced them down and found that none of these 35 cases had previously appeared anywhere; nobody knew about these cases; in other words, under-reporting in this series was precisely 100%. Now, if under-reporting is 100%, any estimation of incidence figures is nonsensical and the true incidence of these complications is anybody's guess. Chiropractors say complications are extremely rare. I hope they are extremely rare, but unless we have proper data we don't know and, as I said, with under-reporting of 100% estimates are nonsensical.
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Old 18th June 2007, 01:23 PM   #12
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Am I missing something here?

Yeah, I can imagine that there are more complications from NSAIDs than from neck cracking. On the other hand, how many more people use NSAIDs than get their neck cracked? Shoot, the average american probably takes 100 NSAID pills a year! And how many get their neck cracked once year? One in a thousand, maybe?

If my numbers are anywhere realistic, then the rate of taking aspirin/acetominophin/ibuprofen is 100 000 times that of neck cracking. Even if it is true that NSAIDs cause 7500 deaths a year, and assuming that neck cracking causes only 1 per year, that means that a dose of NSAID is 15 times safer than getting your neck cracked.

Now, what is the benefit?
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Old 18th June 2007, 02:28 PM   #13
strathmeyer
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
There doesn't seem to be much evidence that chiropractic is particularly helpful for anything.
A systematic review of systematic reviews of spinal manipulation

There are non spinal manipulation chiropractors.
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Old 18th June 2007, 04:49 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by strathmeyer View Post
A systematic review of systematic reviews of spinal manipulation

There are non spinal manipulation chiropractors.
Yep. But by definition, these guys aren't doing anything that would be called chiropractic.

They're naturopaths, physiotherapists, or both.
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Old 18th June 2007, 04:56 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
I've had back problems before and found that not going to a chiropractor made it go away. And I didn't go to a doctor either. Bodies have a habit of fixing themselves.
sometimes, this is true. however taken to the extreme it is a dangerous line of thought.

see here.





PS> Chiropractors are ********.
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Old 19th June 2007, 07:37 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Yep. But by definition, these guys aren't doing anything that would be called chiropractic.

They're naturopaths, physiotherapists, or both.
I don't agree with this. Legally I would think that they are chiropractors by license.

But it does raise the question of can you be a chiropractor if you do not believe in real chiropractic theory with subluxations as the cause of most disease. Fortunately as 90%+ of chiropractors do not feel that manipulation should be limited to muscular skeletal problems, this does not come up much.
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Old 19th June 2007, 08:51 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by strathmeyer View Post
There are non spinal manipulation chiropractors.
Can you expand on this? I am not doubting; just never heard much about it except for employment of other quackery, or acting like a physical trainer.

As for acting like a physical therapist, I wonder how many chiros are trained anywhere near as well as PTs. In fact, I wonder if they know as much as a trainer. There is no quality control on their "educational institutions" so there is enormous variability in what they are told.
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Old 19th June 2007, 08:52 AM   #18
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The sad thing is reading the Comments to that article. There are the usual claims of the article being extremely biased and promoting the Big Pharma and Medical Establishment agenda.

Here's a typical quote:

Quote:
This is pretty thinly disguised pharmaceutical industry propaganda. The truth is that chiropractic is one of the safest therapies around. This is why they have incredibly low malpractice insurance premiums compared to medical doctors. The risk of being harmed by a chiropractor are about a million to one. Compare that to the number of deaths each year in the U.S. from prescribed drugs and medical errors.
Chiro almost seems like a religion to some people. They can't give up or tolerate any criticism of their beliefs.
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Old 19th June 2007, 08:59 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
{snip} Legally I would think that they are chiropractors by license.

But it does raise the question of can you be a chiropractor if you do not believe in real chiropractic theory with subluxations as the cause of most disease. Fortunately as 90%+ of chiropractors do not feel that manipulation should be limited to muscular skeletal problems, this does not come up much.
WT Jarvis, PhD, (whose doctoral research subject was chiropracty) has noted that chiros are a diverse group, united only in their opposition to criticism. And, added by another person, pecuniary motivation.
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Old 19th June 2007, 11:34 AM   #20
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As a physical therapist myself, I think chiropractic is a load of rubbish, a waste of money and time.

Lots of back problems can be helped by working on the surrounding muscles first before anything else. I will give exercises to strengthen and will also use myofascial techniques to lengthen tissue too. That along with some postural education works really well.

Why do we need chiropractors hey?!!!!
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Old 19th June 2007, 11:40 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Physiotherapist View Post
As a physical therapist myself, I think chiropractic is a load of rubbish, a waste of money and time.

Lots of back problems can be helped by working on the surrounding muscles first before anything else. I will give exercises to strengthen and will also use myofascial techniques to lengthen tissue too. That along with some postural education works really well.

Why do we need chiropractors hey?!!!!
Hear hear. My recovery from surgery was entirely excersize and muscle strengthening. In fact, I doubt a chiro could manipulate the area operated on anyway. Does that mean I have a permanently bad subluxation? Bah. it's all crap.
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Old 19th June 2007, 11:45 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by strathmeyer View Post
Yikes. We can always pretend to live in a sane world, but I still see chiropractic offices everywhere.
I moved from Cleveland, OH to Redmond, Wa 5 months ago. In Cleveland, I rarely saw a chiropractor. Here in Redmond, there must be a Chiropractic office in just about every plaza, if not two. There are more chiropractors than starbucks! The only thing that eclipses them is the number of terryaki restaurants.

Maybe it's all the money floating around, but I would have figured it would be the opposite (a more educated pupulation would seem to eschew chiropractors).

Anyways, it's good to see this getting some real press.

Quote:
They considered dialing 911 but knew an ambulance would take her to a hospital where Ed once had a bad experience
Holy crap! Sounds like they were alternative medicine woos to the core, not the supplemental kind either, the complete replacement out of a mistrust of conventional medicine kind.

Your wife passes out paralyzed in the car for 45 mintues, do you:
A) Call 911 and get that ***** looked at
B) Assume that it was nothing and go on home to dinner

Last edited by opqdan; 19th June 2007 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 20th June 2007, 05:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
sometimes, this is true. however taken to the extreme it is a dangerous line of thought.

see here.





PS> Chiropractors are ********.
Don't get me wrong, Ducky. I wasn't promoting doing nothing as any kind of cure-all. I was just warning against a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument. The poster said his back pain had gone away after going to a chiropractor. I said mine went away after not going to one.

I'm after clarification as to what the condition was. If it was a prolapsed vertebra or the like, then I'll withdraw my argument and view chropractic with more interest than I currently do.

My sister has frequent headaches. She has been seeing a chiropractor for years, but she also take (IMHO, too many) powerful painkillers. When the headache goes, she swears that the chiropractic is behind the cessation of pain.
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Old 20th June 2007, 05:37 AM   #24
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http://www.chirobase.org/

For all the inquiring minds and great resources...
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Old 20th June 2007, 06:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
Don't get me wrong, Ducky. I wasn't promoting doing nothing as any kind of cure-all. I was just warning against a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument. The poster said his back pain had gone away after going to a chiropractor. I said mine went away after not going to one.

I'm after clarification as to what the condition was. If it was a prolapsed vertebra or the like, then I'll withdraw my argument and view chropractic with more interest than I currently do.

My sister has frequent headaches. She has been seeing a chiropractor for years, but she also take (IMHO, too many) powerful painkillers. When the headache goes, she swears that the chiropractic is behind the cessation of pain.
Yes, I wasn't mistaking your stance for a cure all. Your example is a great exploration of what most people do, however, and it's scary sometimes how much someone will post hoc their way out of a doctor's appointment. I can understand this. Doctor's offices are scary, sometimes cold and forboding, and generally not a pleasant place for the patient. People will generally avoid going as much as possible.

My point was merely that if left alone, sometimes the body does not heal. I was told (by a doc I eventually stopped seeing for one that would take imaging) that the pain in my back was a slipped disc, and was given many stretches and trips to physical therapists which helped me gain mobility again, but ultimately I think also helped the 9th thoracic vertibrae to completely collapse on itself once the tumor had eaten enough of it away.

I think, in any circumstances of continuing pain the best advice is to get imaging. It is dangerous to let back pain continue on its own for too long, I think.

And I would agree, I think your sister's headaches were probably better treated by the painkillers than the spinal manipulation. I can't think of any vehicle by which manipulating the spine would cure a headache.

I think you are right, clarification is best. What I would love to see, however unlikely, is some imaging of the problem. I would be interested to see how many Chiropractors actually take imaging, and if they do how many can properly diagnose problems that shouldn't be treated with manipulation.
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Old 21st June 2007, 01:45 AM   #26
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I believe that chiropractors do take X-rays and a lot of chiros have in house X-ray facilities. They do getting training in interpretation too. If this is the case, then they should know when to refer to another healthcare professional and when chiropractic treatment is not appropriate.

The Anglo-European College of Chiropractic that is based in Portsmouth does train in interpretation in its clinic. I believe the training there is 5 years long.

This does not in any way mean that I am condoning the practice though.
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Old 21st June 2007, 01:55 AM   #27
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See here www.aecc.ac.uk
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Old 21st June 2007, 02:17 AM   #28
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Quote:
Stroke and Spinal Manipulation
A recent artide in The Annals of Internal Medicine reviewed 39 studies showing that spinal manipulation, the most commonly practiced chiropractic procedure, was no more effective than cheaper alternatives, such as exercise.



Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
Hear hear. My recovery from surgery was entirely excersize and muscle strengthening. In fact, I doubt a chiro could manipulate the area operated on anyway. Does that mean I have a permanently bad subluxation? Bah. it's all crap.
Careful with the blanket statements. Not all chiropractors believe in subluxations. There are chiropractors who are solely "mechanical".
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Old 21st June 2007, 02:59 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Physiotherapist View Post
I believe that chiropractors do take X-rays and a lot of chiros have in house X-ray facilities. They do getting training in interpretation too. If this is the case, then they should know when to refer to another healthcare professional and when chiropractic treatment is not appropriate. {snip}
Chiros are rarely competent in taking and reading x-rays http://www.chirobase.org/17QA/xray1.html despite learning the mechanics of it in school. The whole-torso films they like to use to impress people disclose very little that is useful. If you need an x-ray, see a professional.
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Old 21st June 2007, 03:25 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Careful with the blanket statements. Not all chiropractors believe in subluxations. There are chiropractors who are solely "mechanical".
They are few in number. A recent survey of and by chiros found only 1.5% who discounted subluxations in visceral disease (McDonald et al, Seminars in Integrative Medicine 2004 2:92-98). As I recall, that reflects the number that are members of the American Academy of Chiropractic Medicine- the membership must disavow subluxation. If you go to such a person, you are either paying a premium price for a massage, or getting physical therapy from a person whose PT qualifications are uncertain.
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Old 21st June 2007, 03:40 AM   #31
CFLarsen
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
They are few in number. A recent survey of and by chiros found only 1.5% who discounted subluxations in visceral disease (McDonald et al, Seminars in Integrative Medicine 2004 2:92-98). As I recall, that reflects the number that are members of the American Academy of Chiropractic Medicine- the membership must disavow subluxation. If you go to such a person, you are either paying a premium price for a massage, or getting physical therapy from a person whose PT qualifications are uncertain.
Maybe so. But it is patently wrong to claim that all chiropractors believe in subluxations.
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Old 21st June 2007, 04:03 AM   #32
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One of the things that gets me about this is that time and again, we see chiropractors playing down the danger, plucking statistics like "one in three million" from the ether, and so on. To me, it speaks volumes that their reflex is not to investigate, but to obfuscate.

But, just to play devil's advocate for a moment - given that there is so little decent research in this area, we should beware of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Just as MMR 'sceptics' made the claim that the vaccine causes autism, so are we making a claim here - and so studies are required to show that these aren't simply chance events, with an emphasis on controlling for selection bias - i.e. those people who may be seeking chiropractic help for a symptom of an impending or worsening neurological accident, or who may for some reason be more likely to attend for chiropractic help if they are high-risk to start with.

I had a quick glance at some of the references given in the SkepticReport article Claus linked to above, and only one of the articles cited (Smith et al., 2003) seemed to attempt to control for this, though from reading the abstract (I can't access the full article) it is impossible to tell how well. Even Ernst's (2001) study linked to by Mojo above was just a survey of neurologists.

Does anyone know what are the best studies in this area to evidence the claim that cervical manipulation is causally related to stroke? From what I've seen so far, I don't think the anti-MMR brigade would be allowed to get away with similar levels of evidence for their autism claims.
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Old 21st June 2007, 04:12 AM   #33
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From; http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/25/12/10.html

Quote:
By Peter W. Crownfield, Executive Editor
With each testimonial by a professional athlete or entertainer who attributes their success to, among other things, chiropractic care, the profession takes a small but significant leap forward in terms of public acceptance. Unfortunately, the ringing endorsements seem to be followed quickly by negative assessments of chiropractic that threaten to overwhelm the positive press the profession receives. In essence, for every step forward, we take two steps backward. For the latest examples, consider the May 2007 issue of SELF magazine and the March 19, 2007 issue of U.S. News & World Report.
Not once in his whole rant did he mention actually scientifically establishing any efficacy of the treatment. Nor did he even mention any actual evidence of the same. He spent the whole article bellyaching about testimonial BS. Even his critique of SELF magazine was that "chiropractic care contributes to the total well-being of countless thousands every day." So it seems they do not even want to talk about actual benefits but just "total well-being". I guess if you leave alive and paid the bill your "total well-being" has been served.
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Old 21st June 2007, 05:12 AM   #34
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American Chiropractic Association (ACA) self survey.
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/25/12/12.html

So the survey showed the highest priority was a "national public relations campaign". Any bets that establishing the science behind chiropractic care wasn't even an option. I wondered if the issue has ever been discussed by their organization. I started my search using "peer".

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/17/06/22.html
(Actually talking about paperwork)
Quote:
Many doctors are surprised to hear that peer review has little to do with the condition of the patient.
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/13/15/18.html
Quote:
Statute 460 defines "medically accepted standards" for peer review purposes as "those standards of care, skill, and treatment which are recognized by a reasonably prudent similar health care provider as being acceptable under similar conditions and circumstances."
(So if other chiropractors do it it passes the peer review test.)

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/17/09/07.html
(Here they are just searching legal test cases to force insurers pay for chiropractic care.)

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/22/19/26.html
(Good look into their meaning of "peer review"... Ugh.)
Quote:
The process of peer review within the chiropractic profession is a necessary function that promotes internal self-governance and quality assurance.
In fact this source is cautioning chiropractors about their "opinions" getting used by insurers in establishing peer review practices. Actually it's a caution that insurers might not pay up if someone says the wrong thing.

"Mercy Guidelines" kept coming up with respect to peer review.
http://www.worldchiropracticalliance...ions/mercy.htm
Quote:
The WCA strongly promotes the use of chiropractic as an integral part of a total health and wellness regimen, suitable for all people -- from infancy to old age -- and regardless of the presence or absence of symptoms.
I'm too disgusted to continue.....
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Old 21st June 2007, 06:38 AM   #35
JJM
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Originally Posted by Nucular View Post
{snip} But, just to play devil's advocate for a moment - given that there is so little decent research in this area, we should beware of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Just as MMR 'sceptics' made the claim that the vaccine causes autism, so are we making a claim here - and so studies are required to show that these aren't simply chance events, with an emphasis on controlling for selection bias - i.e. those people who may be seeking chiropractic help for a symptom of an impending or worsening neurological accident, or who may for some reason be more likely to attend for chiropractic help if they are high-risk to start with.

{snip}

Does anyone know what are the best studies in this area to evidence the claim that cervical manipulation is causally related to stroke? From what I've seen so far, I don't think the anti-MMR brigade would be allowed to get away with similar levels of evidence for their autism claims.
There are some direct experiments that cannot be done, so surveys are in order. In the case of chiro and stroke, we know the mechanism (vertebral artery dissection) that links the cervical manipulation and the stroke.

Here are some randomly chosen articles, you can look for more recent articles that cite these.

Canadian Neurologists Warn against Neck Manipulation
http://www.chirobase.org/15News/neurol.html


Cervical Spine Manipulation: An Alternative Medical Procedure with Potentially Fatal Complications
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/554564


Chiropractic Manipulation and Stroke
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/32/5/1054


Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html


Neck And Spine Adjustments Linked To Increased Risk Of Stroke
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/28816/364467.html?d=dmtICNNews

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Old 21st June 2007, 06:54 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
I would be interested to see how many Chiropractors actually take imaging, and if they do how many can properly diagnose problems that shouldn't be treated with manipulation.

According to this article in the British Journal of Radiology
http://bjr.birjournals.org/cgi/reprint/71/843/249.pdf
around three quarters of all chiropractors’ patients are submitted to x-rays and the validity of the chiropractors’ x-ray diagnoses is not well established.


Originally posted by My Wan:
Quote:
The WCA strongly promotes the use of chiropractic as an integral part of a total health and wellness regimen, suitable for all people -- from infancy to old age -- and regardless of the presence or absence of symptoms.

…as does the Chiropractic Association of Ireland:

Quote:
It is the position of the Chiropractic Association of Ireland that chiropractic care to detect and correct vertebral subluxations offers benefits for all people, including those who do not demonstrate symptoms of a disease or health condition. Therefore, the presence of symptoms and/or a medical diagnosis should not be a factor in determining the need for or appropriateness of chiropractic adjustments, nor should the presence of symptoms be required by any future Irish chiropractic board, insurance company or court of law to justify the rendering of chiropractic care to any patient.

http://www.chiropractic.ie/pdfs/posi...cpatients.html
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Old 21st June 2007, 06:59 AM   #37
Hellbound
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Blue Wode:

Well, isn't that loverly?

"You should be able to perform whatever procedure you want, on whoever you can, whenever you want, whether they have any symptoms or conditions or not, without the insurance companies or medical malpractice board being able to question it. Heck, even if the procedure kills the patient, the court shouldn't be able to ask "was this a necessary procedure", because if you did it, then it was. They just need to fork over the dough, and leave us alone."

And people blame real medicine for high insurance rates.

Sheesh!
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Last edited by Hellbound; 21st June 2007 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 21st June 2007, 07:01 AM   #38
pgwenthold
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This scares me.
Absolutely scares me.

Quote:
Originally posted by My Wan:

Quote:
The WCA strongly promotes the use of chiropractic as an integral part of a total health and wellness regimen, suitable for all people -- from infancy to old age -- and regardless of the presence or absence of symptoms.
…as does the Chiropractic Association of Ireland:


Quote:
It is the position of the Chiropractic Association of Ireland that chiropractic care to detect and correct vertebral subluxations offers benefits for all people, including those who do not demonstrate symptoms of a disease or health condition. Therefore, the presence of symptoms and/or a medical diagnosis should not be a factor in determining the need for or appropriateness of chiropractic adjustments, nor should the presence of symptoms be required by any future Irish chiropractic board, insurance company or court of law to justify the rendering of chiropractic care to any patient.

http://www.chiropractic.ie/pdfs/posi...cpatients.html
{shudder}
IOW, chiropracters should start cracking everyone's spines, and no one, not even the insurance companies, shouldn't question it. Moreover, if they permanently damage someone by doing it, they should be protected by law.
{double shudder}
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Old 21st June 2007, 07:57 AM   #39
JJM
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Do you want to see something really scary? The WCA is the primary source of chiro information for the World Health Organization.
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Old 21st June 2007, 08:18 AM   #40
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
Do you want to see something really scary? The WCA is the primary source of chiro information for the World Health Organization.
Actually, that doesn't necessarily have to be scary. For example, if the WHO would say, "Here are the statements of the WCA. Given these statements, the WCA are obviously a bunch of loons, and we advise against having anything to with such quackery."

Unfortunately, I'm guessing that's not what they are saying.
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