ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd June 2008, 06:14 AM   #281
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
Originally Posted by edge View Post
I don't know what they were thinking, but it isn't close to what I do I don't consult spirits or ask questions of an idol with a, what ever a diviners wand is/was back then.
are diviners wand is a dousing rod. Different label, same thing. Sure you don't use an idol, but you do devine for substances.

Originally Posted by edge View Post
I haven't departed from my God, matter of fact if I had, I wouldn't be blessed in seeing and knowing that he works in my life and shows me the truth.
Are you certain about this? You spent time earlier in this thread condoning genocide and the slaughter of children. How are you certain that the god you follow is the true god?
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2008, 12:48 PM   #282
edge
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,436
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
are diviners wand is a dousing rod. Different label, same thing. Sure you don't use an idol, but you do devine for substances.

Are you certain about this? You spent time earlier in this thread condoning genocide and the slaughter of children. How are you certain that the god you follow is the true god?
I said that, I couldnít judge God, not that I Condon genocide.
He defeated death so yes, witnessed by over 500 people and the ascension.


Then are metal detectors modern dowsing rods?
If you are skeptical and an atheist by your beliefs there is no such thingÖ and by YOUR standards, it doesnít work.
There for, there is no problem.


Like Paulís scinnce.
Quote:
I can see you havenít really studied electronics, gravity, and none of the sciences, just by the way you talk about them, please get some real scinnce books and come back in a few years.

Paul
I see revision in what you blindly follow as your God, as complete science is necessary when it totally denies the existence of God.
You donít like it when I use science to verify the existence of God.
Thereís your contradictions, in science, sucks donít it?
You must have great faith in it to follow completely and to be lead by the nose, but there are many contradictions in science as well, that you wonít even question.

First thing the God of the OT,ÖÖ Can't get to him, can't truly know all there is about him, canít know his thoughts or actions and the total reason of why and what he has done with those souls is unknown since the New covenant was not in place yet, so then I follow and have faith in Jesus.


Here's what makes you angry, God has final judgment over all his creation, he says so.
HE will put down evil in the end you don't like that because you sit there and do what ever you think is good for you.
You are in that realm of, I can do what I want too because there is no God, therefore no one to answer to. So you make up any excuse not to have to face him, for now anyway.
What you donít know and I donít know is, if he in fact took them out, did he allow them a second chance and or are they with him now.
This might be the same as if some one is taken out before they can come to God because of the sin of murder and that is interfering with Gods plan for that soul and others, we will never know about what was true from this perspective and why itís such a big sin to murder some one.
Not untill the end of our lives when we are allowed to know.......

If you interfere with Gods salvation and by proxy, you are on that side as a child taught wrong doctrines there is no telling what you might do in the future, revenge from false assumptions.
I still donít know who to judge and who is at fault, could very well be mans excuse or the Hebrews excuse, so I canít say it is wrong of God since he is willing to sacrifice himself physically to save us.


So you have Jesus telling us what we know to be good and the Hebrew who failed direct communication of the laws of God to believe totally and for them to be righteous, which they couldn't do and the reason for the prophesies of the Messiah are self evident.


As far as why you believe the way you do.
You are hiding something and that is your prerogative, free will, what ever you want to call it, because you don't want to change your world what ever it is.
You might be angry about physical appearance or that you like to drink, smoke dope, take pills for recreation and that may suit your lifestyle or the cover of pain emotional or physical. Or you may like to have sex with as many people as you can, or worst.


Now back to is there any proof of a global flood.
Science of the past.

Indiana dunes.
Where did all the sand that should be there and at the Warren dunes gone to?
Iíll try to get some better photos, the first two pictures shows some of it and I believe they were higher in the past there should be way more.
The steel mill in the background is, Bethlehem Steel, wow how Ironic is that?
http://www.nps.gov/indu/photosmultim...d=108#e_122759

The Warren Dunes.
More pictures here.
To give you an idea of size.

Warren Dunes has three miles of shoreline, six miles of hiking trails and is open year-round. It also has a dune formation that rises 260 feet above the lake with spectacular views and 1,952 acres of recreational opportunity.


http://www.michigandnr.com/ParksandT...=504&type=SPRK


I know what the ground is like there in Indiana.
edge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2008, 01:19 PM   #283
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
Originally Posted by edge View Post
I said that, I couldnít judge God, not that I Condon genocide.
So, you don't like the fact that bible says god killed innocent children or you do?

Let's put it another way, Would you judge Shiva harshly if it was said he killed innocent children?

Originally Posted by edge View Post
He defeated death so yes, witnessed by over 500 people and the ascension.
Well, obviously, we must trust the same source for that bit of information as we get the flood story.

It is hard for me to consider any behavior "good" from someone who willingly kills children and demand blood sacrifice.

Originally Posted by edge View Post
Then are metal detectors modern dowsing rods?
If you are skeptical and an atheist by your beliefs there is no such thingÖ and by YOUR standards, it doesnít work.
There for, there is no problem.
You are correct. It is no problem for me because I do not believe in the bible as literal truth. I was simply highlighting the cognative disconnect between allowing yourself to believe in dousing and also believe in the literal view of the bible. From a strict standpoint, dousing is devil magic.


Originally Posted by edge View Post
Indiana dunes.
Where did all the sand that should be there and at the Warren dunes gone to?
Iíll try to get some better photos, the first two pictures shows some of it and I believe they were higher in the past there should be way more.
There should be way more sand dunes? Why?
What is your point here?
BTW, all the sand is in mount baldy.

Originally Posted by edge View Post
The steel mill in the background is, Bethlehem Steel, wow how Ironic is that?
http://www.nps.gov/indu/photosmultim...d=108#e_122759
Why is it ironic? the fact that it is no longer Bethlehem steel, which went out of business, and that plant is now owned by Mittal Steel?
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2008, 01:22 PM   #284
Frozenwolf150
Formerly SilentKnight
 
Frozenwolf150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,134
Originally Posted by edge View Post
I said that, I couldn’t judge God, not that I Condon genocide.
It doesn't help one's credibility to claim that after having just judged God to be righteous and just for slaughtering the rival tribes to the Israelites.

Quote:
He defeated death so yes, witnessed by over 500 people and the ascension.
Hundreds of people also witnessed the miracles of Mohammed or the Buddha, so either you'd better take that into account, or admit that eyewitnesses don't matter much.

Quote:
Then are metal detectors modern dowsing rods?
It might help if you looked up how metal detectors actually work (hint: it has to do with electromagnetic induction) before you ask such a question. Otherwise you might as well claim that magical forces must be at work when the "N" end of one magnet moves towards the "S" end of another magnet. It wouldn't hurt the credibility of your arguments any more.

Quote:
I see revision in what you blindly follow as your God, as complete science is necessary when it totally denies the existence of God.
You don’t like it when I use science to verify the existence of God.
There’s your contradictions, in science, sucks don’t it?
You must have great faith in it to follow completely and to be lead by the nose, but there are many contradictions in science as well, that you won’t even question.
This has what to do with Paulhoff's perfectly reasonable request to study and at least attempt to understand the subject matter you are trying to discuss before you discuss it? The goals of science have nothing to do with proving or disproving the existence of God.

Quote:
First thing the God of the OT,…… Can't get to him, can't truly know all there is about him, can’t know his thoughts or actions and the total reason of why and what he has done with those souls is unknown since the New covenant was not in place yet, so then I follow and have faith in Jesus.
You just finished saying you could scientifically prove the existence of God, and now you say that many important traits of his are unknowable and depend on faith. But we've already been over this.

Quote:
Here's what makes you angry, God has final judgment over all his creation, he says so. (snip)
This says far more about what makes believers angry, which seems to be that they don't want to have to admit that there is no God who will judge all of humanity by the shallow standards of their specific religion, or who will wipe out everyone they deem evil in a glorious divinely ordained genocide. The one passing judgment here is not God though, it's self-righteous hypocritical doomsday believers.

Quote:
As far as why you believe the way you do.
You are hiding something and that is your prerogative, free will, what ever you want to call it, because you don't want to change your world what ever it is.
You might be angry about physical appearance or that you like to drink, smoke dope, take pills for recreation and that may suit your lifestyle or the cover of pain emotional or physical. Or you may like to have sex with as many people as you can, or worst.
Again, this says more about what believers would do if they didn't believe in some God holding them back.

Quote:
Now back to is there any proof of a global flood.
Science of the past.

Indiana dunes.
Where did all the sand that should be there and at the Warren dunes gone to?
I’ll try to get some better photos, the first two pictures shows some of it and I believe they were higher in the past there should be way more.
The steel mill in the background is, Bethlehem Steel, wow how Ironic is that?
http://www.nps.gov/indu/photosmultim...d=108#e_122759

The Warren Dunes.
More pictures here.
To give you an idea of size.

Warren Dunes has three miles of shoreline, six miles of hiking trails and is open year-round. It also has a dune formation that rises 260 feet above the lake with spectacular views and 1,952 acres of recreational opportunity.


http://www.michigandnr.com/ParksandT...=504&type=SPRK


I know what the ground is like there in Indiana.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC365_1.html TO is your friend.

But again, if a massive global flood deposited those sands, you'd have pebbles, mud, rocks, and all sorts of other crap mixed in with them on all layers. A flood that comes and goes in a very short period of time mixes things up. Gradual layering by size and weight takes longer than 40 days to occur.
__________________
We'll meet again, Don't know where, Don't know when
But I know we'll meet again some sunny day
Keep smiling through, Just like you always do
Till the blue skies drive the dark clouds far away
Frozenwolf150 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2008, 01:24 PM   #285
Madalch
The Jester
 
Madalch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,763
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Why is it ironic? the fact that it is no longer Bethlehem steel, which went out of business, and that plant is now owned by Mittal Steel?
I think Edge, like Baldrick, thinks that "irony" is the same as "goldy" or "bronzy", only with iron. Since steel is mostly iron, any steel mill must be ironic.
__________________
As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius
It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker
Madalch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2008, 01:41 PM   #286
Safe-Keeper
Penultimate Amazing
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,249
Quote:
You must have great faith in it to follow completely and to be lead by the nose
Edge, I've already asked you this: Why do you look down on others' alleged blind faith when you yourself have stated that your own faith is blind?

Quote:
First thing the God of the OT,…… Can't get to him, can't truly know all there is about him, can’t know his thoughts or actions
[...]
God has final judgment over all his creation
Make up your mind. You're contradicting yourself.

Quote:
he says so.
So does Zeus. So do most dictators, for that matter.

Quote:
HE will put down evil in the end you don't like that because you sit there and do what ever you think is good for you.
Like almost every other person in the world, yes.

Quote:
You are in that realm of, I can do what I want too because there is no God, therefore no one to answer to.
Here's a newsflash for you: Atheists have morals, too. I find it deeply insulting as well as hurtful to be told that I feel I can do whatever I want because I believe there's no God. Not only is it utterly and completely wrong and a blatant strawman, it also implies some less-than-nice things about your world view. You make it sound as if the only reason why murder and rape is wrong is that it upsets Yahweh.

I, for one, don't believe in God because there's no evidence for Him, just like there's no evidence of Odin, reincarnation, or the Loch Ness monster.

Quote:
As far as why you believe the way you do.
You are hiding something and that is your prerogative, free will, what ever you want to call it, because you don't want to change your world what ever it is.
You might be angry about physical appearance or that you like to drink, smoke dope, take pills for recreation and that may suit your lifestyle or the cover of pain emotional or physical. Or you may like to have sex with as many people as you can, or worst.
Right, 'cause that's atheists for you, right? We're ugly emos, we smoke, we drink, we do drugs, and we have promisquous sinful sex (preferably buttseks for extra Sin bonus points) while plotting school shooting, communism and suicide.

__________________
"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs
"If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 23rd June 2008 at 02:13 PM.
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2008, 04:01 PM   #287
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
Originally Posted by edge View Post
Like Paulís scinnce.


I see revision in what you blindly follow as your God, as complete science is necessary when it totally denies the existence of God.
It seems to be a very hard concept for religious people to understand that not to believe in a so-called god means just that. Science is a method it is not a religion and it is not a so-called god. So edge no so-called god means, no so-called god of any kind.

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2008, 11:26 AM   #288
edge
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,436
Quote:
Hundreds of people also witnessed the miracles of Mohammed or the Buddha, so either you'd better take that into account, or admit that eyewitnesses don't matter much.
Quote:
Then are metal detectors modern dowsing rods?
It might help if you looked up how metal detectors actually work (hint: it has to do with electromagnetic induction) before you ask such a question. Otherwise you might as well claim that magical forces must be at work when the "N" end of one magnet moves towards the "S" end of another magnet. It wouldn't hurt the credibility of your arguments any more.

Me:
Quote:
I can do the same with copper wire so that statement isn't true.
It's more like an antenna and free energy and free movement with very little input of electrical energies from me.
The work force is greater than the input of energy.

I have made a working model and have eliminated the human and organic elements with the use of a 9-volt battery, so was the model going against the word?
They work for the same ends, finding what you are looking for.
One makes sounds as an indication or presents of metals and the other method moves as an indicator, the movement is what is important as it relates to electrical process of the Earth, it is I believe a key to virtual free energies.
The question you are asking is it satanic or natural, if it is natural then it is universal throughout the universe and is related more to the either energies which is controlled or set in motion by the creator.


Quote:
Let's put it another way, Would you judge Shiva harshly if it was said he killed innocent children?
There is no Shiva to judge.



Quote:
Well, obviously, we must trust the same source for that bit of information as we get the flood story.
How could they be the same source?
Different witnesses at different times spread out with thousands of years between them.



Quote:
You are correct. It is no problem for me because I do not believe in the bible as literal truth. I was simply highlighting the cognative disconnect between allowing yourself to believe in dousing and also believe in the literal view of the bible. From a strict standpoint, dousing is devil magic.
Well yes there where people back then taking something that is natural and using it as a magic way of talking to spirits and gods to start a false religion for their benefits.
There are examples of the same principles today.

Atomic energy comes to mind and how it is used.
False healers claiming one thing and saying it is god through lies and deception with the only intention of lining their pockets.
Silvia Brown claiming what she claims like; God allows her powers, it is still similar to what the ancient dowsers did.


Quote:
Hundreds of people also witnessed the miracles of Mohammed or the Buddha, so either you'd better take that into account, or admit that eyewitnesses don't matter much.
What were those miracles that Mohammad did?
Magician tricks like levitating magic carpet rides.
No prophecies announced the coming of Muhammad.
All God's prophets did miracles to prove they were speaking for God. God would have it no other way.

Muhammad did NO miracles and made only ONE vague prophecy about 7th century Romans. Twice in The Qur'an Muhammad admitted he could not show any divine connection via miracles. (Surah 17:90-95; 3:183, also see: 29:50-51)
Muhammad rarely showed any compassion and had all his detractors murdered. He was fond of splitting the spoils of war.

Muhammad himself was unsure if he would go to heaven. Allah often changed his mind to suit Muhammad's personal agenda.
"Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers, smite at their necks;" Qur'an (Koran) 47:4
Sura's 8:39; 9:5; 9:29: 47:4 in the Muslim Qur'an/Koran are 'divine' commandments to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death.
Who is Allah really? The Qur'an (Koran) says that Allah desires to lead people astray (Qur'an Sura 6:39, 126). He does not help those who are led astray by him (Sura 30:29), and Allah desires to use them to populate hell (Sura 32:13).
According to Muslim scholar Pickthal, "the number of campaigns (military) he (Muhammad) led in person during the last ten years of his life is twenty-seven, in nine of which there was hard fighting. The number of expeditions which he planned and sent out under other leaders is thirty-eight" (n.d., pg. xxvi)


Buddha Prophesized about Jesus (Yeshua)
Buddha's Date of Birth: approx. 563 Before Christ (BC)
http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus.htm


Quote:
But again, if a massive global flood deposited those sands, you'd have pebbles, mud, rocks, and all sorts of other crap mixed in with them on all layers. A flood that comes and goes in a very short period of time mixes things up. Gradual layering by size and weight takes longer than 40 days to occur.
There are layers and huge ones that are exactly like that but the majority is sand on top of all the other layers as in my movie.
Do an experiment and see how fast the layering occurs.
The glacial action of gouging created the dunes, if you took that sand and pushed it back into the great lakes it would hardly change them and be insignificant.
Think about how deep and how long just lake Michigan is.
Where did all that material go?
Sure now the wind is involved in how they move, as suggested by your link.


The Sahara was forested what, about 12,000 Years ago and you have to get under the sand to know that.
edge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2008, 11:43 AM   #289
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
Originally Posted by edge View Post
There is no Shiva to judge.
You simultaneously avoided the question while also casting a judgement upon him. Did you intend to do that? Afterall, by doing so, you helped illustate my point.

Your avoidance of answering my question directly is a rather clear signal that you do find the slaughter of children amoral. You know what the implications are of saying so outright would be. So, instead you stated that Shiva wasn't real. The funny thing about your claim of shiva is that you have the exact same amount of evidence for saying Shiva isn't real as saying God is. (zero)



Originally Posted by edge View Post
How could they be the same source?
Different witnesses at different times spread out with thousands of years between them.
are you claiming that they didn't both come from the bible?
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2008, 12:05 PM   #290
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
The Jewish Messiah has not come yet edge.

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2008, 12:29 PM   #291
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing

Last edited by Paulhoff; 24th June 2008 at 12:43 PM.
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2008, 02:53 PM   #292
Frozenwolf150
Formerly SilentKnight
 
Frozenwolf150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,134
Originally Posted by edge View Post
There is no Shiva to judge.
Good, now we're getting somewhere. Now if you could apply the same standard of objectivity to your own God, you would begin to understand where other people's arguments are coming from.

Quote:
What were those miracles that Mohammad did?
Magician tricks like levitating magic carpet rides.
No prophecies announced the coming of Muhammad.
All God's prophets did miracles to prove they were speaking for God. God would have it no other way.
You missed the point. Just because someone wrote about miracles and witnesses doesn't make it true. People did in fact write plenty of stories about Mohammed, the Buddha, and other prominent religious figures, and many involved miracles. Does that make those miracles true? Of course it doesn't. But you can find examples of Mohammed's alleged miracles easily (and I'm not arguing that they were any more real than those of Jesus) by searching on any Islam propaganda site. Some from the Qur'an.

But that's still beside the point. Eyewitnesses that someone else wrote about don't mean a thing. If I were to take a pencil and add three more zeroes to that 500 figure, would you be a thousand times more impressed?
Quote:
There are layers and huge ones that are exactly like that but the majority is sand on top of all the other layers as in my movie.
Do an experiment and see how fast the layering occurs.
The glacial action of gouging created the dunes, if you took that sand and pushed it back into the great lakes it would hardly change them and be insignificant.
Think about how deep and how long just lake Michigan is.
Where did all that material go?
Sure now the wind is involved in how they move, as suggested by your link.


The Sahara was forested what, about 12,000 Years ago and you have to get under the sand to know that.
What exactly are you suggesting happened here, and how does that prove a global flood?
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD202.html Another more relevant link.
__________________
We'll meet again, Don't know where, Don't know when
But I know we'll meet again some sunny day
Keep smiling through, Just like you always do
Till the blue skies drive the dark clouds far away
Frozenwolf150 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 12:15 AM   #293
edge
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,436
Quote:
You missed the point. Just because someone wrote about miracles and witnesses doesn't make it true.
In a court of law it does and especially when there are cooperative witnesses.

In the time-line of science, as best as they can come up with, 12,000 years ago a major event occurred.
Humans appear about 20,000 years before that, the dating techniques aren't perfect and the Hebrews weren't perfect.

Quote:
But that's still beside the point. Eyewitnesses that someone else wrote about don't mean a thing. If I were to take a pencil and add three more zeroes to that 500 figure, would you be a thousand times more impressed?
I would be Impressed if only ten people witnessed the event of the ascension.



So Paul you listen to magicians for guidance.
A magician’s job is to fool you into what they want you to see.
Jesus walked on a sea not a wading pool.
Not only that but they are vulgar.
I never liked them ever, I thought they were hacks when I was a child and it appears they are even worse now.
They are rude, ugly and vulgar and I can't stand the sight of them.
When they said Bullsh** that's exactly what they are handing you.

Notice that one is the mouthpiece and one is a puppet.
Exactly what the devil does.

First lie that they state and this is from Schemer, (sp.) he states that God makes Adam and Eve at the same time.
What's being stated in that passage is that man is created in his image but it says, male and female he created them, referring to all the other creatures.
At this point it's telling us that man is alone without a mate.
The animals are with mates but not man.

They both got it wrong,( and they have PhDs, Jezz), there aren’t two authors it’s the way they talked in the Kings English.
There was never any confusion in the way I understood that passage.

Then the two lost souls want to make a connection to Elvis a sinner, oh brother.
Elvis is a rotting corpse.
He never walked out of the grave and yes there are conspiracy theories that he went under ground to escape the fame of his popularity the two do not even compare, no ascension, no miracles and I bet he did die of drug abuse.
Loving Elvis in the way that some of the fans did is a false worship of sorts.
Using false adoration of a human is also repulsive using him to compare to Christ is blasphemous.
These clowns are using the tabloids to back their claim, oh my God!
You really believe this?
Their logic is so twisted it’s funny as hell.

Then they discuss the flood story.
Yes there is a story within a story.
They, Myers and Schemer are both right to a degree.


I freeze framed the last part of your first film, that's all I have time for because I’m on dial up.

Let me give you some advice. At the end of that first film.
The tall one I take is Penn, he has a demon in him, it's most noticeable at the moment he puts his hand on his heart, that's body language to say he is sincere and knowledgeable, he has cat like pupils.
We have noticed this also in many actors, it is really noticeable when you see them on a big screen remember I said in the past, the eyes are a window to the soul these two have sold their souls for fame and fortune.....

His condescending attitude is another give away.
It is his way to lead you away from the truth.

Last edited by edge; 25th June 2008 at 12:17 AM.
edge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 05:02 AM   #294
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
Originally Posted by edge View Post
So Paul you listen to magicians for guidance.
A magicianís job is to fool you into what they want you to see.
No a magician tells you he is going to fool you, and then does, that is called telling the truth and there is a lot to learn from that. But in your case, you fool yourself and don't tell yourself that and therefore you believe in magical things, like so-called gods and dowsing.


Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25, 26, 27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2: 18, 19

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 06:07 AM   #295
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by edge View Post
In a court of law it does and especially when there are cooperative witnesses.
Only if those witnesses are available. If you try to introduce "eyewitness testimony" in the form of a note that says "such and such happened and a bunch of people saw it" it will be inadmissible.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 06:13 AM   #296
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by edge View Post
The tall one I take is Penn, he has a demon in him, it's most noticeable at the moment he puts his hand on his heart, that's body language to say he is sincere and knowledgeable, he has cat like pupils.
We have noticed this also in many actors, it is really noticeable when you see them on a big screen remember I said in the past, the eyes are a window to the soul these two have sold their souls for fame and fortune.....
I'm sorry Edge, are you literally claiming that Penn Gillette and various film actors have vertical slits for pupils?
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 06:31 AM   #297
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
Originally Posted by edge View Post
His condescending attitude is another give away.
It is his way to lead you away from the truth.
If condescension is an indication of a person whose beign deceitful, then christianity is DEFINITELY false.


However, I do not agree with that. Condescension is really just being jerky and has nothing at all to do with being right or wrong.



Quote:
I would be Impressed if only ten people witnessed the event of the ascension.
There were more than 10 people who witnessed Elvis walking among us after he died. Since you have more than your number required, do you believe that Elvis rose from the dead?
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 07:09 AM   #298
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
Originally Posted by edge View Post
The tall one I take is Penn, he has a demon in him, it's most noticeable at the moment he puts his hand on his heart, that's body language to say he is sincere and knowledgeable, he has cat like pupils.
Demon, more of your magical thinking again, you just make something up with no proof and for you it is true.

Edge you be the first one they would burn in the good old days along with your (marks of the devil) dowsing sticks.

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 08:53 AM   #299
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by Paulhoff View Post
Demon, more of your magical thinking again, you just make something up with no proof and for you it is true.

Edge you be the first one they would burn in the good old days along with your (marks of the devil) dowsing sticks.

Paul

I read an account by another Christian who said he couldn't get any results with dowsing rods because he didn't have a demon in him. He cited Hosea 4:12 as evidence.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 09:03 AM   #300
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Last night on the "History Channel", a story on the Chinese Junk, a group of...... dowsers...!!! located one of the junks which got to America 71 years before Columbus, using their dowsing "skills".
Well, at least they said they'd located the ship.
Their test borings brought up some wood.
A hole right next to the first got nothing.
They coulda used a backhoe.
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 09:05 AM   #301
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I read an account by another Christian who said he couldn't get any results with dowsing rods because he didn't have a demon in him. He cited Hosea 4:12 as evidence.
.
That's the nice thing about religion. The same thing can be both good and evil.
There are no absolutes, but if the wrong guy is evil, he can be absolutely killed.
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 09:18 AM   #302
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
Last night on the "History Channel", a story on the Chinese Junk, a group of...... dowsers...!!! located one of the junks which got to America 71 years before Columbus, using their dowsing "skills".
Well, at least they said they'd located the ship.
Their test borings brought up some wood.
A hole right next to the first got nothing.
They coulda used a backhoe.
Hmmmm... I wonder, how do their dowsing rods distinguish between Chinese wood and North American wood? Maybe their's a little potentiometer on the end with labels like "gold", "water", "wood-anomalous", "wood-unremarkable", "car keys", "my own ass", etc.

It's possible that Chinese mariners reached North America during their all too brief period of exploration, but so far any conclusive evidence is lacking. We know that Zheng He's fleet crossed the Indian Ocean, but claims that he circumnavigated the globe are poorly supported so far.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 09:20 AM   #303
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
That's the nice thing about religion. The same thing can be both good and evil.
There are no absolutes, but if the wrong guy is evil, he can be absolutely killed.
But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 12:16 PM   #304
articulett
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,404
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.
Indeed, it's arrogant to question god (and his proxies).
articulett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 12:29 PM   #305
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.
I must quote this again becuase of it's extreme pertinence to the current thread. Just to ensure that the subtely of your point isn't used as an excuse to ignore it, I am going to hammer it home.

Edge, in Foster's statement, it is clear that his "right guy" is god and that "not our place to judge" is your defense of god's genocide.

Can you not see how hypocritcal it is to claim to know what good and evil are and how the bible teaches such, but then ignore actions which are obviously evil when they are done by your god (actions which are labeled evil by god)?

I understand the loyalty you wish to hold regarding your faith. You do not want to feel like you betrayed something or someone. But it isn't betrayal to acknowlege the truth of something.

If your understanding of god doesn't permit him to do such a horrible act, than the simple answer is that the bible is wrong. Afterall, it was written by man, inspired by god.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 01:49 PM   #306
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
So-called god must love us so mush, because he made us so impure, and not only that he goes and starts us out with sin and it is original too, and that is even before we take our first breath, such great love.

Let us bow our heads in respect of the so-called god of love, before he condemns us to eternal hell.

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 02:07 PM   #307
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Hmmmm... I wonder, how do their dowsing rods distinguish between Chinese wood and North American wood? ...
.
Obviously, the wood must be Chinese.. they said it was, and it came up from where they were drilling. Once.
What more can anyone ask for?
Backhoe, anyone?
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2008, 10:18 PM   #308
lippard
Student
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 29
There's an excellent debunking of Noah's Ark in Robert A. Moore's "The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark," in the _Creation/Evolution_ journal, vol. 4, no. 1, Winter 1983, which was also heavily borrowed from for Ian Plimer's book _Telling Lies for God_ (1994, Random House Australia). That book is now selling for $84.95 on Amazon.com--I guess I should have bought an extra copy to resell, even if it does defame me for five pages.
lippard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 06:00 AM   #309
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
Originally Posted by lippard View Post
There's an excellent debunking of Noah's Ark in Robert A. Moore's "The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark," in the _Creation/Evolution_ journal, vol. 4, no. 1, Winter 1983, which was also heavily borrowed from for Ian Plimer's book _Telling Lies for God_ (1994, Random House Australia). That book is now selling for $84.95 on Amazon.com--I guess I should have bought an extra copy to resell, even if it does defame me for five pages.
Well here it is "The Impossibel Voyage...", and I plan to read it in a day or two, I'm working today.

http://www.natcenscied.org/resources...hose%20Animals

So which five pages defame you, was that from the start?

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 12:34 PM   #310
edge
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,436
Quote:
I read an account by another Christian who said he couldn't get any results with dowsing rods because he didn't have a demon in him. He cited Hosea 4:12 as evidence.
So lets see:

12 of my people.
They consult a wooden idol
and are answered by a stick of wood.
A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
they are unfaithful to their God.

A copper wire disproves your point as it also works bent into a Y shape, it is even better than a Y branch from a tree, it is so sensitive that it burns your hands and not from friction but from an electrical reaction.

They could have been using that wooden idol for sex, without any further details from me.
They are consulting a wooden idol and getting answers from it, the piece of stick is the wooden idol.
To me, what they were doing was, false worship and deception, that’s what I get.


Quote:
So-called god must love us so mush, because he made us so impure, and not only that he goes and starts us out with sin and it is original too, and that is even before we take our first breath, such great love.
Since Christ you have no excuse……..


Originally Posted by Paulhoff View Post
No a magician tells you he is going to fool you, and then does, that is called telling the truth and there is a lot to learn from that. But in your case, you fool yourself and don't tell yourself that and therefore you believe in magical things, like so-called gods and dowsing.


Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25, 26, 27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2: 18, 19

Paul


What are they doing when miss-quoting the bible? Fooling you?

Our souls where created before our flesh so yes before the animals and then in the flesh after the animals.
Jesus tells us that.


What they were picking up in that Chinese Junk was the metals from what I have studied about dowsing..

Quote:
But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.
So then you are actually defending God?
It is possible that the Hebrews covered up the genocide that they did.

After all, they were chastised heavily by Christ and they still, to this day say the messiah hasn't made the first appearance.


Everything changes in the N.T...
Christianity over rides the Jewish religion and they still won't come around and that is a fact, not all though.

From my recent discoveries you can't say that a major event that they recorded did not happen.
The question is was it world wide and can an ark be built of that size and function to save what ever they had on it and it was the biggest life boat that was ever built.

The evidence is there and right on the last layers so you can't say there is no evidence.
I believe it covered the northern hemisphere and as it receded to the South Pole it diminished enough to allow the survival in places like Australia and the Amazon anywhere below the equator.

They were talking from the perspective and their world was rather small.
I believe they where around to record the event that took place around 12,000 years ago.

There can be no other explanation from the evidence that I see.
Lots of the evidence has been eroded away but not all.


Quote:
There were more than 10 people who witnessed Elvis walking among us after he died. Since you have more than your number required, do you believe that Elvis rose from the dead?
I see Elvis in Vegas all the time, just go to a convention and you'll see multiple Elvis’s.

Ask his widow if he is dead.
She will tell you he is dead, don't believe the false reports. LOL

If Elvis raised some one from the dead with a song then you might have something.

I'll be back with another link with more proof of the great flood.
I will post another link to a video I made from a location in the heart of this valley, but I need to check it.
I have two more after that but it takes time to upload on dial up.

The last one I did will show you how a creek will move sand and pile it and what happens to the flow of water the difference between the sand wave and that action.
From the same area.

Last edited by edge; 26th June 2008 at 12:36 PM.
edge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 01:35 PM   #311
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
Originally Posted by edge View Post
So lets see:

12 of my people.
They consult a wooden idol
and are answered by a stick of wood.
A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
they are unfaithful to their God.

A copper wire disproves your point as it also works bent into a Y shape, it is even better than a Y branch from a tree, it is so sensitive that it burns your hands and not from friction but from an electrical reaction.

They could have been using that wooden idol for sex, without any further details from me.
They are consulting a wooden idol and getting answers from it, the piece of stick is the wooden idol.
To me, what they were doing was, false worship and deception, thatís what I get.
This makes absolutely no sense and does not actually address the point that FZ was making.



Originally Posted by edge View Post
So then you are actually defending God?
It is possible that the Hebrews covered up the genocide that they did.

After all, they were chastised heavily by Christ and they still, to this day say the messiah hasn't made the first appearance.


Everything changes in the N.T...
Christianity over rides the Jewish religion and they still won't come around and that is a fact, not all though.

From my recent discoveries you can't say that a major event that they recorded did not happen.
The question is was it world wide and can an ark be built of that size and function to save what ever they had on it and it was the biggest life boat that was ever built.
So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the genocide in the bible was done by the jews and since god could do no wrong, the jews improperly attributed the approval of genocide to god?

You understand that this argument hurts you in several significant ways:

1.) That would mean the bible is incorrect in it's attribution and is therefore not the inerrant word of god.
2.) That would defense only works for one of the genocides. It does not excuse the flood story and god wiping out everyone except for the contents of one boat. The only way your argument would work is if you also admit that the flood story is untrue.

Originally Posted by edge View Post
The evidence is there and right on the last layers so you can't say there is no evidence.
I believe it covered the northern hemisphere and as it receded to the South Pole it diminished enough to allow the survival in places like Australia and the Amazon anywhere below the equator.
no.



Originally Posted by edge View Post
I see Elvis in Vegas all the time, just go to a convention and you'll see multiple Elvisís.

Ask his widow if he is dead.
She will tell you he is dead, don't believe the false reports. LOL

If Elvis raised some one from the dead with a song then you might have something.
And how do you know that the reports of jesus rising wasn't "false reports". You just claimed that 10 people saying so was good enough for you. Now it's not?
Doesn't that seem....hypocritical?


remember that the earliest tracing they can find for the earliest gospel is ~60-80 years after the death of Jesus.
what that means is if someone was to write a biography on Elvis somewhere between 2037-2057 and said that dozens of unamed unsourced people saw elvis walking among us after his death, THAT would be as much evidence as the bible provides for Jesus' resurection.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 02:53 PM   #312
edge
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,436
It is not incorrect, it's over all meaning doesnít change and that doesn't mean that God is wrong either, there isn't good enough evidence to state that and you refuse to accept the evidence that there is; spiritual, archeological or witnesses, and now geological.
This is a cold case in a sense and those witnesses and events and places have been recorded, the advantage for a believer today is that God works in our lives in Jesus Christ and that changes everything, so he is real, but that's to us, oh well.
The funny part is, I'm having fun doing it.
Quote:
This makes absolutely no sense and does not actually address the point that FZ was making.
which was:
Quote:
But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.
They already judged him on the cross?
All of us get judged because of that.
The one that defeated death for us by taking all sin onto himself, judges now, not us at this point, our turn is over.
What you question is, is he just?
Well he must be, he helps me along and many others, so what are you missing?


This is the one thing you are missing and I wrote this somewhere else but,
Quote:
Faith is like prayer when a believer has a major problem and in your mind you think like this:
I could pray for it but I have faith that God/Jesus will provide in the most difficult situation.
As far as you can tell there is no way out of a bad situation and then all of a sudden because of faith alone an answer comes in the form of money for food for instance, a way out, that presents itself from seemingly nowhere, it makes you believe stronger and you give credit where credit is due by thanking God for the relief and praise the lord, because it is the only obvious intervention that can possibly explain it, so you suffer for the moment, with a conclusion thatís undeniably intervention by God, thanks and praise gets more done than you would believe.
It is known practices that get you to the goal you seek, but you refuse to seek so you donít see, you donít find.
The reason I say this is because I have been in that dead end path you all are caught up in, been there, done that, so I give it to Jesus, in my mind I say Jesus it is in your hands.
No Church building is necessary no pope is needed; only belief, youíll be surprised.

So I look at the world and I see evidence in many forms that tell me something different.
Plus the advantage of having belief.
Since the bible and all cultures have a myth about it, (the flood) the question I ask myself is, is there anything to it?
Thatís the way I look at it. Then Bam there it is.
Even I am in a circle of fire right now,... a lightning storm passed through here the other night and there are 57 fires in this County alone, (and many surrounding counties), the last I heard.
Youíll see the smoke in my video; yesterday and today light material in the form of ash is settling in the valley.
No earth quakes here today though.
The weather is getting freakyÖ..Hopefully the Israelis donít do anything or anyone else.

But who knows?


I am going to upload more videos this will take some time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2bnE-k9Pw8

Remember there is only a total of maybe eight-feet to the bedrock under that two-foot glacial deposit maybe four.
This is what I see. 10 feet over all, at the highest maybe twelve.
If the Glaciers flowerd here it had to be on the first bedrock down since this is a valley.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg na8-1.jpg (22.7 KB, 76 views)
edge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 03:11 PM   #313
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
Originally Posted by edge View Post
It is not incorrect, it's over all meaning doesnít change and that doesn't mean that God is wrong either, there isn't good enough evidence to state that and you refuse to accept the evidence that there is; spiritual, archeological or witnesses, and now geological.
So god committed genocide? God killed innocent children?

You keep answering in generalities and avoiding the uncomfortable specifics that is being asked. You then go so far as to claim that these specifics are proven (which they aren't) and therefore the generalities are true.

If the flood story is true, god is evil. If the flood story is false, then the bible isn't inerrant. these statements are logically consistent and do not do attempt to invalidate god's exsitence.

Let me put it another way: If god is real, and he did kill children, then god is evil and not worthy of worship.

Originally Posted by joobz View Post
This is a cold case in a sense and those witnesses and events and places have been recorded, the advantage for a believer today is that God works in our lives in Jesus Christ and that changes everything, so he is real, but that's to us, oh well.
The funny part is, I'm having fun doing it.
Originally Posted by edge
His condescending attitude is another give away.
It is his way to lead you away from the truth.
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
If condescension is an indication of a person whose beign deceitful, then christianity is DEFINITELY false.
QED


Originally Posted by edge View Post
They already judged him on the cross?
All of us get judged because of that.
The one that defeated death for us by taking all sin onto himself, judges now, not us at this point, our turn is over.
What you question is, is he just?
Well he must be, he helps me along and many others, so what are you missing?
Again, you completely avoided the point that FZ made and went down an a path of non sequitor. Allow me to clarify FZ's statement (actually I did it already, so I'll just quote that text).

Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote
But if the right guy is evil, then hey, it's not our place to judge.
I must quote this again becuase[sp] of it's extreme pertinence to the current thread. Just to ensure that the subtely of your point isn't used as an excuse to ignore it, I am going to hammer it home.

Edge, in Foster's statement, it is clear that his "right guy" is god and that "not our place to judge" is your defense of god's genocide.

Can you not see how hypocritcal it is to claim to know what good and evil are and how the bible teaches such, but then ignore actions which are obviously evil when they are done by your god (actions which are labeled evil by god)?

I understand the loyalty you wish to hold regarding your faith. You do not want to feel like you betrayed something or someone. But it isn't betrayal to acknowlege the truth of something.

If your understanding of god doesn't permit him to do such a horrible act, than the simple answer is that the bible is wrong. Afterall, it was written by man, inspired by god.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 05:26 PM   #314
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by edge View Post
A copper wire disproves your point as it also works bent into a Y shape, it is even better than a Y branch from a tree, it is so sensitive that it burns your hands and not from friction but from an electrical reaction.
It sounds like a copper wire and a $20 multi-meter could win you $1,000,000. Are you willing to prove your assertion before witnesses under controlled conditions?
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 05:27 PM   #315
badnewsBH
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 271
I must be doing something wrong on the multi-quote area (I'll look it up later), so I'll just post this out here.


Originally Posted by edge...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see Elvis in Vegas all the time, just go to a convention and you'll see multiple Elvisís.

Ask his widow if he is dead.
She will tell you he is dead, don't believe the false reports. LOL

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by joobs...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Elvis raised some one from the dead with a song then you might have something.
And how do you know that the reports of jesus rising wasn't "false reports". You just claimed that 10 people saying so was good enough for you. Now it's not?
Doesn't that seem....hypocritical?


remember that the earliest tracing they can find for the earliest gospel is ~60-80 years after the death of Jesus.
what that means is if someone was to write a biography on Elvis somewhere between 2037-2057 and said that dozens of unamed unsourced people saw elvis walking among us after his death, THAT would be as much evidence as the bible provides for Jesus' resurection.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Apparently, edge didn't see Penn and Teller's BS episode on the Bible. As they mentioned, people living today who knew Elvis are conflicted on stories about him. This link has the clip, starting at about 3:45...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ELee_oepJM

Now, if we don't have an agreed-upon rendition of the life of a world famous person who died within my lifetime, isn't it a bit presumptuous to claim that the Bible, a book more than two millennia old that has apparently been edited numerous times since it was originally compiled, cannot possibly contain some errors?

Of course, that doesn't begin to speak to the many inconsistencies in the text, but that's a whole different post. And more posts. And books. And research. It's so much easier to just post the clip.
badnewsBH is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 07:06 PM   #316
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
It sounds like a copper wire and a $20 multi-meter could win you $1,000,000. Are you willing to prove your assertion before witnesses under controlled conditions?
You must have missed my earlier post on edge.

http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 07:16 PM   #317
HghrSymmetry
View clearer from above.
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 14,245
Not all of us missed it. Some of us are still recovering from laugh induced kidney damage.
__________________
HygrSym brought up some fantastic points. He's so good, he doesn't have to use pseudo words like 'chillax'... -FSM
HghrSymmetry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 07:58 PM   #318
X
Slide Rulez 4 Life
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,127
I wonder if we should ask a mod to split this thread?
It seems to have wondered into a discussion of dowsing and "is god good?".

It's also gotten very surreal.

Fascinating stuff, but I don't think it has much to do with the myth of the Noachian flood.

Does anyone else agree with me?


ETA: I also wonder if this post should be in forum management.
__________________
It is sad that this is necessary:
Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly."
Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly."

[X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis
X is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 08:03 PM   #319
Safe-Keeper
Penultimate Amazing
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,249
I agree, if there's a mod with unending amounts of patience, it would be nice if he could somehow disentangle the posts and split the thread in three.
__________________
"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs
"If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2008, 08:42 PM   #320
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 12,512
I have been to the library that edge has been tested in many times and Randi has pointed out the books with the so-called gold that only became a problem when he failed.

Paul

__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesnít know everything, but religion doesnít know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.