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Tags james millette , kevin ryan , Niels Harrit , paint chips , richard gage , steven jones , wtc

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Old 4th June 2012, 09:30 AM   #681
Senenmut
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
I'm not even going to bother with this nonsense. You are all over the place. Your contradicting yourself in the same post regarding Millette's ashing at 400C. Write coherent sentences.
of coarse your not. with regards to millette's ashing, a "skeptic" posted a link speaking about melting of nanoparticles at low temps. well, at 400c, there was no microspheres formed from his fe2o3 particles. no contradiciton, just science from millette's study.
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Old 4th June 2012, 09:44 AM   #682
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found the quote and link:
post 546
"For example, the melting temperature of iron particles in the range of a few nanometers lies approximately between 200~400C compared to 1538C for bulk iron."

http://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/pp/proj...ntforming.html

thats why i brought up millette's ashing and the lack of iron microspere formation.
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Old 4th June 2012, 10:08 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
...
as you and i and everyone knows, the chips vary from chip to chip and from site to site on the chips.
Exactly. So be careful, and don't lump them all together. Some chips contain kaolin, others don't. Some contain silica, others don't. Some contain titanium oxide, some don't. Some contain zinc chromate, others don't. Some contain calcium silicate, others don't. Some contain epoxies, some may not. Some may even contain aluminium or alumina (but neither has been shown by anyone at all), but most do not.

It is obvious that different types of chip will behave differently in different tests. If chip X shows behaviour x, you can't assume that chip Y would show the same behaviour, unless you first show that X and Y have the same composition.

Do you comprehend that, Senemut?

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
you and oystein can say whatever you want but the point is they jones chips reacted around 430C and procuced iron and silicon rich microspheres.
Senemut: Which of the at least six different kinds of chips reacted at 430C? And which produced iron-rich microspheres? And which produced silicon-rich (glassy) microspheres?
(Answer: no one knows)

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
has he ever done a dsc and came up with NO iron and silicon microspheres????
What would you conclude if a Millette chip did produce this or that kind of spheres?
What would you conclude if a Millette chip did NOT produce this or that kind of spheres?

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
i cant answer that question. jones chips might contain a silicon matrix whereas millettes contain kaolin.
Nothing in Jones's data points to a silicon "matrix".
Everything in Jones's data on chips (a)-(d) points to kaolin in an organic matrix.

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
some belive jones chips are laclede, then those silicon rich spheres must have come from kaolin.
No.
Some believe that one of the at least six different kinds of red-gray chips are LaClede, and the other at least 5 are NOT LaClede.
It follows then that no one believes that silicon rich spheres must have come from kaolin when Jones e.al. heated some UNKNOWN kind of chip, because at least 5 of the different kinds of chips may not contain kaolin.

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
im confused? are you saying the chips contain feooh particles before reacting? oystein says they are hematite. fe2o3 not feooh?
Yes, you are confused.

Oystein says that the red matrix contains red hematite pigments, i.e. grains Fe2O3 that are about 100 nm small. Run-of-the-mill cheap red pignents.

Sunstealer says the chips contain FeO(OH) - but not as nano-sized pigments in the red matrix. Rather, such phases are normal constituents of mill-scale - i.e. the gray layer, wich is corroded steel surface.

There is no conflict between his and my claims.

You are just confused.

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
again note jones' email to greening above and see fig 21 in the bentam paper when you speak about the spheres contain large proportions of si/al/ca and sometimes ti/s/k.
Earlier, you spole about "high-purity iron".
Does Fig 21, or any other Jones data, show such a thing?

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
the dsc is NOTHING like the sintering process.....
Not? Why not? Please explain! (this shall be funny )
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Old 4th June 2012, 10:22 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
you know exactly what was tested with small variation from chip to chip
You know this how? Where does "small" begin and end?

We know from the Harrit paper that they had at least six differend kinds of chips in their dust bags.
Only for two of these do they produce pre-ignition compositions: Chips (a)-(d), and the MEK-chip. I have shown in my blog that the difference between these two kinds are vast - 2/3 of the XEDS signal for the MEK-chip would have to get removed to make it look similar to chips (a)-(d). That variariation is not small, it is proof that we are dealing with two entirely different compositions, and that "contamination" is not an acceptable explanation.
As for the at least 4 other kinds of chips, we have no information at all to asses whether or not the variations are "small".

So how on earth do you know there was only "small variation from chip to chip"??

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
...if you believe it is laclede primer.
Sorry to rub this in, but:
We do NOT "believe" "it" is LaClede primer, with "it" being the substance from which any of the post-DSC spheres that they show were produced.
Rather, we KNOW that there were at least 5 different kinds of red-gray chips that were NOT LaClede primer, and no one knows which kind or kinds they DSCed. It follows that it is impossible to guess which base material gave rise to which spheres, and that LaClede / kaolin may very well not have been "it".

Do you understand by now that the variation between the chips is significant, because we know of only one that it did contain kaolin, but of five that may not have contained kaolin (one which we are pretty sure does not contain kaolin)?

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
from the bentham paper:

"Further, we have shown that the red material contains
both elemental aluminum and iron oxide, the ingredients of
thermite, in interesting configuration and intimate mixing in
the surviving chips (see Results, section 1). The species are
small (e.g., the iron oxide grains are roughly 100 nm across)
in a matrix including silicon and carbon, suggesting a superthermite
composite."
They have not in fact shown any of this, least of all a matrix including Si.
They have not shown that all of the chips contain elemental Al, however they HAVE shown that chips a-d contain NO free Al.
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Old 4th June 2012, 10:28 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
found the quote and link:
post 546
"For example, the melting temperature of iron particles in the range of a few nanometers lies approximately between 200~400C compared to 1538C for bulk iron."

http://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/pp/proj...ntforming.html

thats why i brought up millette's ashing and the lack of iron microspere formation.
For the record: Some posters here think that melting point depression plays a significant role in our context, but I do not.

Melting point depression is significant only at particle sizes well below 100 nm, which is the smallest we see in Harrit e.al.'s samples.

I think Sunstealer's phase transitions within the gray layers are a better candidate especially since many of the spheric blobs that Harrit e.al. show appear to have originated from the gray layer, not the red layer; the gray layer is many microns thick, so melting point depression can't play a role.
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Old 4th June 2012, 10:37 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
For the record: Some posters here think that melting point depression plays a significant role in our context, but I do not.

Melting point depression is significant only at particle sizes well below 100 nm, which is the smallest we see in Harrit e.al.'s samples.

I think Sunstealer's phase transitions within the gray layers are a better candidate especially since many of the spheric blobs that Harrit e.al. show appear to have originated from the gray layer, not the red layer; the gray layer is many microns thick, so melting point depression can't play a role.
Oystein,
Last Friday Richard Gage told me personally that some of the iron-rich spheres found in the Bentham paper were only about 100 atoms across. Is this true? That would be ultra-nano if it were! He thinks Millette may not have looked at this closely enough.
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Old 4th June 2012, 10:58 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Exactly. So be careful, and don't lump them all together. Some chips contain kaolin, others don't. Some contain silica, others don't. Some contain titanium oxide, some don't. Some contain zinc chromate, others don't. Some contain calcium silicate, others don't. Some contain epoxies, some may not. Some may even contain aluminium or alumina (but neither has been shown by anyone at all), but most do not.
i see that jones and crew has one type that varies from chip to chip and henryco and millette have another. remember henryco heated his to 900c i believe and no microspheres formed. so i still have my money for chris when he is ready for it concerning a dsc test of millette's chips.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It is obvious that different types of chip will behave differently in different tests. If chip X shows behaviour x, you can't assume that chip Y would show the same behaviour, unless you first show that X and Y have the same composition.

Do you comprehend that, Senemut?
that is soooo true. millette and jones' chips show similar sem and edx but will millttes react at around 430C and produce the iron and silicon rich microspheres!!


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Senemut: Which of the at least six different kinds of chips reacted at 430C? And which produced iron-rich microspheres? And which produced silicon-rich (glassy) microspheres?
(Answer: no one knows)
the chips that vary from chip to chip and spot to spot on the same chip that jones and crew have.


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
What would you conclude if a Millette chip did produce this or that kind of spheres?
if it took place in a dsc and it reacted around 430C and produced a similar spike and had similar edx data for the microspheres then i would conclude that that particular chip millette tested is similar if not equal to jones' chip makeup.
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
What would you conclude if a Millette chip did NOT produce this or that kind of spheres?
i think u know the answer to that.


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Nothing in Jones's data points to a silicon "matrix".
Everything in Jones's data on chips (a)-(d) points to kaolin in an organic matrix.
ok, so you say. Jones says it does:
"The species are small (e.g., the iron oxide grains are roughly 100 nm across)
in a matrix including silicon and carbon, suggesting a superthermite
composite."


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Some believe that one of the at least six different kinds of red-gray chips are LaClede, and the other at least 5 are NOT LaClede.
It follows then that no one believes that silicon rich spheres must have come from kaolin when Jones e.al. heated some UNKNOWN kind of chip, because at least 5 of the different kinds of chips may not contain kaolin.
it was not an unknown kind of chip. we know what it consisted of. you say we dont know, the bentham paper says they do know.


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Oystein says that the red matrix contains red hematite pigments, i.e. grains Fe2O3 that are about 100 nm small. Run-of-the-mill cheap red pignents.

Sunstealer says the chips contain FeO(OH) - but not as nano-sized pigments in the red matrix. Rather, such phases are normal constituents of mill-scale - i.e. the gray layer, wich is corroded steel surface.

There is no conflict between his and my claims.
he never mention that he was speaking of the gray layer. so what percentage of that corroded steel would contain feooh? sounds like a BIG strech to me!
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You are just confused.
i dont think so, i believe you are!


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Earlier, you spole about "high-purity iron".
Does Fig 21, or any other Jones data, show such a thing?


Not? Why not? Please explain! (this shall be funny )

look at the edx fig 21. if you dont think it is, why not?
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Old 4th June 2012, 11:06 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
of coarse your not. with regards to millette's ashing, a "skeptic" posted a link speaking about melting of nanoparticles at low temps. well, at 400c, there was no microspheres formed from his fe2o3 particles. no contradiciton, just science from millette's study.
Stop wibbling. Learn to write coherent sentences. You've been told why Millette used 400C. He did not want to destroy the crystals. He simply wanted to remove the epoxy and separate the particles for further analysis. If you had read his report you would know this because he states it:

Quote:
Low-temperature ashing (LTA) is an alternative to using solvents to extract inorganic constituents from an organic film or coating.6 LTA of the chips of interest was done using an SPI Plasma Prep II plasma asher. LTA was performed for time periods of 30 minutes to 1 hour depending on the size of the chip. The gray layer remained intact and the red layer residue was collected in clean water and drops of the suspension were placed on carbon-film TEM grids. After drying, the particulate was analyzed using a Philips CM120 TEM capable of SAED and equipped with an Oxford EDS system.
400C over 30-60 mins is too lower temperature over too shorter time to produce spheres.

Again - far better not to destroy the sample and actually analyse what is there than do DSC which tells you nothing anyway.

You can cling to the DSC test and the spheres all you want, it still doesn't mean thermite is present.
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Old 4th June 2012, 11:13 AM   #689
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
i see that jones and crew has one type that varies from chip to chip
Where do you see that?

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
...
if it took place in a dsc and it reacted around 430C and produced a similar spike and had similar edx data for the microspheres then i would conclude that that particular chip millette tested is similar if not equal to jones' chip makeup.
See, that would be an invalid conclusion.

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
i think u know the answer to that.
Tell me anyway


Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
it was not an unknown kind of chip. we know what it consisted of. you say we dont know, the bentham paper says they do know.
Ok. Then quote the Bentham paper and tell us what the DSCed chips consisted of
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Old 4th June 2012, 11:18 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
found the quote and link:
post 546
"For example, the melting temperature of iron particles in the range of a few nanometers lies approximately between 200~400C compared to 1538C for bulk iron."

http://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/pp/proj...ntforming.html

thats why i brought up millette's ashing and the lack of iron microspere formation.
A few nanometers now equals 100nm (for the rhombohedral Fe2O3 in the red layer) and 10 to 50 microns or 10000 to 50000nm (for the gray layer.)

So lets say a few equals 20, then at minimum you are out by a factor of 5 and at worst 2500.

Quote:
Based on the optical and electron microscopy data, the Fe/O particles are an iron oxide pigment consisting of crystalline grains in the 100-200 nm range and the Al/Si particles are kaolin clay plates that are less than a micrometer thick.
Quote:
The gray layers were in the range of 10 to 50 micrometers thick (Appendix B).
From Millette.

You obviously have no concept of the scales in the Harrit paper and Millette's progress report. Secondly the reason why papers have been quoted showing lower than bulk melting temperatures for nano-scale materials is to show truthers that they are incorrect when they state bulk material properties for materials on the nano-scale.
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Old 4th June 2012, 11:27 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
you know exactly what was tested with small variation from chip to chip and from location to location on those chips. your just saying that to get out from trying to explain how kaolin transformed into those silicon rich microspheres if you believe it is laclede primer.


from the bentham paper:

"Further, we have shown that the red material contains
both elemental aluminum and iron oxide, the ingredients of
thermite, in interesting configuration and intimate mixing in
the surviving chips (see Results, section 1). The species are
small (e.g., the iron oxide grains are roughly 100 nm across)
in a matrix including silicon and carbon, suggesting a superthermite
composite."

ok so carbon and silicon.......my bad, i didnt mean just silicon...sorry.

jones is silicon with carbon and millette's is epoxy.


that would be nice. what non sense are you referring too?
No it's not a silicon matrix because silicon is not observed in the matrix material.

Quote:
The XEDS maps, several of which are shown in Fig. (10b-f),
indicate by color, the degree to which the particular element
is present at or near the surface from point to point across the
area. The results indicate that the smaller particles with very
bright BSE intensity are associated with the regions of high
Fe and O. The plate-like particles with intermediate BSE
intensity appear to be associated with the regions of high Al
and Si.
The O map (d) also indicates oxygen present, to a
lesser degree, in the location of the Al and Si. However, it is
inconclusive from these data whether the O is associated
with Si or Al or both. The carbon map appears less definitive,
that is, it does not appear to be associated with a particular
particle or group of particles, but rather with the matrix
material.
Fig 10 shows this and it's self evident.

There is no silicon matrix if matrix is used in the correct way. You can tell that the report was written by many people due to such inconsistencies. These would have been picked up had the paper gone through a proper and rigorous peer review.
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Old 4th June 2012, 11:40 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes, you are confused.

Oystein says that the red matrix contains red hematite pigments, i.e. grains Fe2O3 that are about 100 nm small. Run-of-the-mill cheap red pignents.

Sunstealer says the chips contain FeO(OH) - but not as nano-sized pigments in the red matrix. Rather, such phases are normal constituents of mill-scale - i.e. the gray layer, wich is corroded steel surface.

There is no conflict between his and my claims.

You are just confused.
Exactly. The gray layer is consistent with rust from a low carbon steel. Rust contains different iron oxides. Some of these iron oxides exhibit different crystal structures/phases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_oxide

FeOOH is one of them. The reason I'm looking at the iron oxides is because the gray layer disappears post DSC and small metallic looking spheres are formed. It therefore makes sense that the gray layer forms the majority of the constituents of these spheres. It therefore makes sense to look at phase transformations and other reactions involving potential oxides that make up the gray layer.

Infact in the DSC there are endothermic troughs above 550C. That's a potential phase change or localised melting occurring.
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Old 4th June 2012, 12:01 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Oystein,
Last Friday Richard Gage told me personally that some of the iron-rich spheres found in the Bentham paper were only about 100 atoms across. Is this true? That would be ultra-nano if it were! He thinks Millette may not have looked at this closely enough.
Let's see...

Iron oxide, Fe2O3, has a density of about 5.2 g/cm3 and a molar mass of 159.7 g/mol. So one mol occupies a volume of (159.7/5.2) cm3 = 30.7 cm3 = 3.7*10-5 m3. The edges of cube of that volume are 0.031 m long (3.1 cm), that is 310,000,000 nm.

1 mole is about 6.0 1023. The cubic root of that number, 84,343,266, would be the number of molecules along the edge if you arrange 1 mole in a cube.

So if iron oxide molecules were in a cubic crystal structure, you'd find 84,343,266 molecules per 31,000,000 nm, or 0.37 nm per molecule, or 37 nm per 100 molecules.

The iron oxide pigments in the red paint are typically 100-150 nm across, that would be 270-405 molecules.

This would be somehat different for different materials, but I think we get an idea here of the orders of magnitude that we are talking about.
Iron: 23 nm / 100 atoms.
Silica: 34 nm / 100 atoms
etc.

So Gage is claiming that there are microspheres in the Bentham paper that are about 20-40 nm across? Let me check...

Nope, I see none post-ignition spheres smaller than 1 micron, all are larger than 1,000 nm, or more than 2500 atoms/molecules across.

However, as I said, the iron oxide pigments are close to that order of magnitude, they are only a few 100 molecules across. Perhaps he (or you?) mixed up pre-ignition grains and post-ignition spheres?

100 nm iron oxide pigments have been state of the art for 100 years and are easily and cheaply produced on large industrial scales by entirely conventional means: Chemical reaction, grinding and sieving, and are thus found in millions of mundane products.
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Old 4th June 2012, 12:36 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Where do you see that?
as far as i know, his red gray chips react around 430C. i dont think that he has ever stated that he tested a chip that didnt react.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
See, that would be an invalid conclusion.
or the right conclusion.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Ok. Then quote the Bentham paper and tell us what the DSCed chips consisted of
"...indicate that the gray layers are consistently characterized
by high iron and oxygen content including a smaller amount
of carbon. The chemical signatures found in the red layers
are also quite consistent (Fig. 7), each showing the presence
of aluminum (Al), silicon (Si), iron (Fe) and oxygen (O), and
a significant carbon (C) peak as well"

i know your response will be blah..blah...blah..blah
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Old 4th June 2012, 12:45 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
A few nanometers now equals 100nm (for the rhombohedral Fe2O3 in the red layer) and 10 to 50 microns or 10000 to 50000nm (for the gray layer.)

So lets say a few equals 20, then at minimum you are out by a factor of 5 and at worst 2500.





From Millette.

You obviously have no concept of the scales in the Harrit paper and Millette's progress report. Secondly the reason why papers have been quoted showing lower than bulk melting temperatures for nano-scale materials is to show truthers that they are incorrect when they state bulk material properties for materials on the nano-scale.
you played the melting point depression angle for awile (yr or so ago). i remember getting a link awhile back from you when speaking about iron microspheres. i know the scales.
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Old 4th June 2012, 01:06 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
No it's not a silicon matrix because silicon is not observed in the matrix material.

Fig 10 shows this and it's self evident.

There is no silicon matrix if matrix is used in the correct way. You can tell that the report was written by many people due to such inconsistencies. These would have been picked up had the paper gone through a proper and rigorous peer review.
think what you want too.

it is interesting when mark basile talks of the matrix in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1VmaCl4HwU

at 3950 he speaks of a matrix with silica and then at 46 30 (post reaction), he speaks about a silicate material shell that was left over from the original matrix. he speaks about a silicate material all coated inside with "iron films"......interesting stuff.
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Old 4th June 2012, 01:14 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
as far as i know, his red gray chips react around 430C. i dont think that he has ever stated that he tested a chip that didnt react.
This does not mean that the chips were significantly different from each other.

Since it clearly was the organic matrix that ignited arounf 400C, and since many different organic matrixed will ignite in thar area, and since most the minerals will not burn at all, any of the following might show these general characteristic of reacting around 430C:
- Oil paint with organic pigments
- Epoxy paint with iron oxide, kaolin and strontium chromate
- Epoxy and linseed oil based paint with silica, talc, iron oxide, calcium aluiminate and zinc chromate
- thermite in an epoxy matrix
- acrylic coating with clay and cadmium sulfide pigment
- etc.

All these are very different where it matters, one would even contain thermite, but DSC is unable to tell these apart.

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
or the right conclusion.
No.


Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
"...indicate that the gray layers are consistently characterized
by high iron and oxygen content including a smaller amount
of carbon. The chemical signatures found in the red layers
are also quite consistent (Fig. 7), each showing the presence
of aluminum (Al), silicon (Si), iron (Fe) and oxygen (O), and
a significant carbon (C) peak as well"
THIS is blah blah blah.
"presence of Al" would be satisfied if you have aluminium, alumina, aluminium silicate or aluminates. All significantly different in context.
"presence of Al" would be satisfied if you have elemenal silicon, silica, silicates... All significantly different in context.
"presence of Fe" could be satisfied by elemental iron, various iron oxide and hydrocides, iron carbides, etc. All significantly different in context.
C and O are no brainers to start with, since we are obviously dealing with hydrocarbon matrixes, of which many are possible. All significantly different in context. And pretty much every compound in the context has oxygen.

Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
i know your response will be blah..blah...blah..blah
It would be an appropriate response to your / Jones's blah..blah...blah..blah.
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Old 4th June 2012, 02:52 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
We also know silica proper (diatomaceous as well as amorphous) was present in Tnemec paint. Silica and silicates are both quite common in paints, so Tnemec is not the only candidate, just the only one we know of. It is a total certainty that many more red paints were present in the towers.
Furthermore, industrial-grade bulk chemicals will commonly contain traces of other, similar materials. There's no point in refining them to something like analytical reagent purity so long as it doesn't affect its intended use. I should expect that commercial aluminum silicate will contain certain amounts of magnesium silicate, potassium aluminum silicate, silica, etc., and that this will vary from batch to batch. Paint isn't exactly a high-tech item.
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Old 4th June 2012, 03:00 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
Furthermore, industrial-grade bulk chemicals will commonly contain traces of other, similar materials. There's no point in refining them to something like analytical reagent purity so long as it doesn't affect its intended use. I should expect that commercial aluminum silicate will contain certain amounts of magnesium silicate, potassium aluminum silicate, silica, etc., and that this will vary from batch to batch. Paint isn't exactly a high-tech item.
Correct. "Aluminium silicate" is simply clay. Most clays for such purposes come from natural deposits and contain several other silicates besides Al-silicate. Silicate clays from Georgia, for example, have mainly impurities from Ti, but also Mg, Ca, Nl and K, as well as some Fe2O3.
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Old 4th June 2012, 03:42 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Correct. "Aluminium silicate" is simply clay. Most clays for such purposes come from natural deposits and contain several other silicates besides Al-silicate. Silicate clays from Georgia, for example, have mainly impurities from Ti, but also Mg, Ca, Nl and K, as well as some Fe2O3.
One might even say that silicates in general are <ahem> as common as dirt!
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Old 4th June 2012, 06:02 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I don't want to derail this thread any further. The full article about Marie-Paule Pileni is in this thread, we can continue there if you want: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=141353
Not sure what the problem is. All the article says is that she felt a little sniglbet about it. I get those feelings sometimes too. I'm sure it's made me quit a job or two.

Seriously though, you're quoting from THAT article??
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Old 4th June 2012, 06:17 PM   #702
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Speaking of aluminosilicates, among other things:

From Steven Badger's dissertation:
Quote:
WTC Dust Markers exhibit characteristics of particles that have undergone high stress and high temperature. Asbestos in the WTC Dust was reduced to thin bundles and fibrils as opposed to the complex particles found in a building having asbestos-containing surfacing materials. Gypsum in the WTC Dust is finely pulverized to a degree not seen in other building debris. Mineral wool fibers have a short and fractured nature that can be attributed to the catastrophic collapse. Lead was present as ultra fine spherical particles. Some particles show evidence of being exposed to a conflagration such as spherical metals and silicates, and vesicular particles (round open porous structure as a result of boiling and evaporation). The presence of these particles, confirmed using conventional forensic and statistical methodology, in conjunction with one another, identifies the source as the WTC Event.

An additional characteristic of WTC Dust is the presence of coated particles and fibers. The coatings vary in thickness from monolayers to finely-dispersed sub-micron sized particles. The coated particles have been detected by low voltage back-scattered electron imaging, x-ray microprobe analysis, and high resolution x-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS). The WTC Dust has also been shown to be corrosive to unprotected metal, to affect the conductivity of circuit boards in a manner that will cause intermittent failures, and to be severely abrasive when present in lubricants at only five percent of the volume.
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Last edited by ergo; 4th June 2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 4th June 2012, 06:42 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
- Oil paint with organic pigments
- Epoxy paint with iron oxide, kaolin and strontium chromate
- Epoxy and linseed oil based paint with silica, talc, iron oxide, calcium aluiminate and zinc chromate
- thermite in an epoxy matrix
- acrylic coating with clay and cadmium sulfide pigment
- etc.

All these are very different where it matters, one would even contain thermite, but DSC is unable to tell these apart.
and you have a dsc curve for all these?
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Old 4th June 2012, 06:57 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Since it clearly was the organic matrix that ignited arounf 400C, and since many different organic matrixed will ignite in thar area,
Which ones do so? What data are you referring to?

Quote:
and since most the minerals will not burn at all,
But they'll boil?

Quote:
any of the following might show these general characteristic of reacting around 430C:
- Oil paint with organic pigments
- Epoxy paint with iron oxide, kaolin and strontium chromate
- Epoxy and linseed oil based paint with silica, talc, iron oxide, calcium aluiminate and zinc chromate
- thermite in an epoxy matrix
- acrylic coating with clay and cadmium sulfide pigment
- etc.

All these are very different where it matters, one would even contain thermite, but DSC is unable to tell these apart.
So paint that merely cracks at 600 - 800 C will ignite at 430 C somehow?
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Old 4th June 2012, 07:09 PM   #705
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oystein-
have you and sunstealer tried to figure out the percentage of feooh contained in the 'corroded steel" or gray layer?

Originally Posted by Sunstealer:
"I have an idea with regard to the Harrit et al DSC curves and the formation of the spheres produced.

FeOOH undergoes calcination and subsequent mass loss upto 270C due to removal of water which could explain the rise to around 270C. The exothermic peak is likely to be burning of epoxy or other organic material. There's also an endotherm that starts at 520C for two of the curves which is potentially a phase change. Phase changes will easily account for spheroidisation of particles below the melting point of the material. Annealing of FeOOH and the transformation to Fe2O3 is a mechanism that will produce spheres at temperatures observed in the DSC. If you couple that with the fact that these spherical particles contain large proportions of Si/Al/Ca and sometimes Ti/S/K along with their respective sizes then there is no way that anyone can say that to produce spheres you need temperatures of 1500C plus."
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Old 4th June 2012, 11:36 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Speaking of aluminosilicates, among other things:

From Steven Badger's dissertation:
Thanks for the quote.
Don't see where Steven Badger talks about AlSilicates, but this certainly is reaffirming:
"Some particles show evidence of being exposed to a conflagration such as spherical metals and silicates"
Just as I thought: metal and silicate spheres are usual and excected results of - conflagration.
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Old 4th June 2012, 11:39 PM   #707
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Which ones do so? What data are you referring to?
Google for yourself at what temperatures many organic substances will ignite

Originally Posted by ergo View Post
But they'll boil?
No.

Originally Posted by ergo View Post
So paint that merely cracks at 600 - 800 C will ignite at 430 C somehow?
This "merely cracking" is the result of chemical reactions. I'll leave it to you to figure out what those could be.
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Old 4th June 2012, 11:42 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
oystein-
have you and sunstealer tried to figure out the percentage of feooh contained in the 'corroded steel" or gray layer?
...
No. Too little data. Blame Harrit e.al. for mostly ignoring the gray layer and having no explanation for it.

However even they suspect it could be corroded steel.

Sunstealer is a metallurgist. He knows damned well that corroded steel surfaces usually have a FeO(OH) component.


But why should we?
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Old 5th June 2012, 03:48 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
oystein-
have you and sunstealer tried to figure out the percentage of feooh contained in the 'corroded steel" or gray layer?
Do you have a method to do this? I'd be damn impressed if anyone in the world does, damn impressed. The fact that you are even asking this question shows that you are completely out of your depth on the subject and have not the merest inkling as to the subject matter.

You would need the samples and secondly you would need to do an extensive study on the oxidised steel (gray layer) to find out.

That is why I called it an idea, I'm hypothesising regarding the transformation of the gray layer into spheres and tying that in with DSC curve as best I can.

You have also been shown numerous DSC curves of epoxies that have exothermic peaks around 430C before. I know that because I provided them

Here's a novel idea - why don't you research your own questions for a change rather than having to be spoon fed the whole time?
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Old 5th June 2012, 04:12 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
You have also been shown numerous DSC curves of epoxies that have exothermic peaks around 430C before. I know that because I provided them

Here's a novel idea - why don't you research your own questions for a change rather than having to be spoon fed the whole time?
i have a decent memory but i dont remember getting dsc curves from you...sorry.
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Old 5th June 2012, 04:23 AM   #711
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looks like basile also found a multilayered chip 5 or 6 layers deep with an outer ceramic layer. i dont see how corroded steel could come into play with these multilayered chips. as we know, jones and crew also found multilayered chips.
start at 38 25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1VmaCl4HwU
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Old 5th June 2012, 04:29 AM   #712
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Sunstealer: Well, in this case, I also don't remember DSC curves on epoxies you provided. I only remember some TGA curves.


Senenmut
: As I have pointed out several times, DSC is not really common method for investigation of burning/thermal degradation of polymers.
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Old 5th June 2012, 05:42 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Sunstealer: Well, in this case, I also don't remember DSC curves on epoxies you provided. I only remember some TGA curves.


Senenmut
: As I have pointed out several times, DSC is not really common method for investigation of burning/thermal degradation of polymers.
Yes I think they were TGAs.

BTW I've actually got TGAs of Al/Fe2O3 thermite embedded in an epoxy matrix. Want to see that? Of course you do.



Figure 4.19 DTA traces for epoxy-cast Al+Fe2O3 composites with a) 47, b) 60, c) 70,
d) 78 vol.% epoxy, e) pure epoxy, and f) nano-Al+Fe2O3+70 vol.% epoxy compositions.
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Old 5th June 2012, 06:13 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
looks like basile also found a multilayered chip 5 or 6 layers deep with an outer ceramic layer. i dont see how corroded steel could come into play with these multilayered chips. as we know, jones and crew also found multilayered chips.
start at 38 25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1VmaCl4HwU
Alright, what facts do you have about this chip? Elemental composition perhaps? Does it burn or not? Please list all the facts you have!

And then answer a few simple questions:
  1. Is this the same material as chips a-d, or a different one?
  2. Is this the same material as the MEK-soaked chip, or a different one?
  3. What elements did the multi-layered chip in the Bentham paper contain?
  4. Is Basile's multi-layered chip the same material as Harrit's?
  5. Is Harrit's multi-layered chip the same material as chips a-d?
  6. Is Harrit's multi-layered chip the same material as the MEK-soaked chip?
  7. Why the heck are you talking about this chip?
Please give reasons for your answers!

That should put you firmly into your place, if you have the balls to answer them honestly and with some effort.

I predict you won't have the balls, won't have the honesty, and won't put in a serious effort. Reason: You are a Twoofer.
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Old 5th June 2012, 06:16 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Yes I think they were TGAs.

BTW I've actually got TGAs of Al/Fe2O3 thermite embedded in an epoxy matrix. Want to see that? Of course you do.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...pictureid=6192

Figure 4.19 DTA traces for epoxy-cast Al+Fe2O3 composites with a) 47, b) 60, c) 70,
d) 78 vol.% epoxy, e) pure epoxy, and f) nano-Al+Fe2O3+70 vol.% epoxy compositions.
Source?
What's the units on the y-axis?
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Old 5th June 2012, 06:23 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Google for yourself at what temperatures many organic substances will ignite
Actually, you're the one making the claim.


Quote:
No.
Then you didn't, in fact, read the excerpt of Steven Badger's. Or even his paper, I'm guessing.


Quote:
This "merely cracking" is the result of chemical reactions. I'll leave it to you to figure out what those could be.
The WTC evidence has shown that the paint survives temperatures above 600 C. You're claiming that this paint would ignite at 430 C - a claim which is contradicted by the physical evidence. You have done no tests yourself. Why would you make a claim that obviously contradicts the evidence?
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Old 5th June 2012, 06:31 AM   #717
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Sunstealer:

The source? (Btw, you again mismatched TGA and DSC)
The conditions? (Under air or inert? Heating rate?)

At first glance, it looks very messy and only endotherms at 660 degrees C can be clearly attributed to the melting of aluminium. And a peak at ca 550 C for curve f can be attributed to the thermitic reaction in nanothermite, in which epoxy binder was already burned away. And of course a curve d seems to show rapid thermitic reaction, but this is a "regular" thermite (?), which should not be ignited at such low temp. ca 700 degrees.

If the black curve belongs to pure epoxy, it does not make really sense to me for measurements both under air and inert, since epoxy should be completely evaporized at temp. below ca 700 degrees C in both cases. I do not think that this curve reflects the thermal effects of epoxy degradation in realistic way.

As I wrote: a mess, which just shows how difficult is to measure reliably DSC in samples, which evaporate during heating (as in epoxy composites and other polymers).

Anyway, I am looking forward for the comments of the authors, since I may be wrong in several aspects
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Old 5th June 2012, 06:43 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Actually, you're the one making the claim.
It's a matter of common knowledge. I won't source that for you anymore than I will source that various meats will be cooked well when they reach 65-85C.

Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Then you didn't, in fact, read the excerpt of Steven Badger's. Or even his paper, I'm guessing.
I read the excerpt - it doesn't mention boiling or anything to that effect. You didn't source or link the paper, so no, I didn't read it.

Originally Posted by ergo View Post
The WTC evidence has shown that the paint survives temperatures above 600 C. You're claiming that this paint would ignite at 430 C - a claim which is contradicted by the physical evidence. You have done no tests yourself. Why would you make a claim that obviously contradicts the evidence?
"The" paint, ergo? Do have to slap you over the head again for that STUPID blunder? Or are you just trying to pull my leg?
I am "claiming that this paint would ignite at 430 C"?? Where, ergo?
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Old 5th June 2012, 06:46 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
"The" paint, ergo? Do have to slap you over the head again for that STUPID blunder? Or are you just trying to pull my leg?
I am "claiming that this paint would ignite at 430 C"?? Where, ergo?
What paint?

Are you serious? You're saying that some paint will ignite at 430 C, but the rest of the WTC paint doesn't? But you haven't done any tests on this and have no data to back it up. Is this your argument? Please tell me this is not your argument.
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Old 5th June 2012, 06:48 AM   #720
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And no, I'm not going to spoonfeed you the comments that Steven Baadger made about the boiling of aluminosilicates, especially when you know RJ Lee made the same observations.
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