IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Closed Thread
Old 20th June 2020, 08:40 AM   #3201
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,566
I'll go through it one more time, but after that I'm just going to reiterate that if you want to comment on my posts then the best advice I can give you is to read them first.

The article was about menstrual health. It was addressed to "people who menstruate", because what it was discussing was menstrual health. Rowling made the point that they should have used the term "women" instead.

Even ignoring the fact that trans people exist at all, her point is stupid and wrong because the term "women" includes people who do not menstruate. My female relative who had a hysterectomy in her 20s did not stop being a woman when her womb was removed, even though she stopped menstruating.

It's also stupid and wrong because the term "woman" excludes people who do menstruate. My ex-girlfriend who started menstruating when she was 9 did not become a woman when her period started, even though she was menstruating.

Rowling was making the point that the author of the article shouldn't have used a term which was accurate and precise, and instead contended that they should have used a term that was inaccurate and imprecise. This is stupid and wrong. An author should use the terms that are the most accurate and precise. In this case it was "people who menstruate" because the article was about menstrual health and "women" includes people outside the scope of the article and excludes people inside the scope of the article. Therefore Rowling's comment was stupid and wrong.

Incidentally, yes if you were wondering, this means that your point about menstruation being unique to adult human females is also stupid and wrong - although I'm open to hearing your argument that a 9 year old schoolgirl should be considered an adult, if that's an argument you really want to make.

And all of that is before considering the fact that trans people do exist, and that Rowling's history with trans issues means that I don't give her the benefit of the doubt on this one and instead assume that her statement was prompted by bigotry.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th June 2020, 08:57 AM   #3202
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,889
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The conclusion I reach is that you haven't been paying attention to the conversation, or to the links I've provided. Because you're completely wrong about this. The people who run women's shelters report that they do accept transwomen, and that they have done for a long time, without any issues.
I ended up saying exactly the opposite of what I meant. Bad editing. The first version of the sentence was phrased negatively, but when I edited that, I didn't change "accept" to "exclude".
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th June 2020, 09:03 AM   #3203
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,889
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
See, this is exactly it. I post evidence that that's not the case. You assert without evidence that it is.
When a group of girls go to the school board and ask that the trans-girl not be allowed to use their locker room, I think of that as evidence that the girls are uncomfortable.


These objections happen all the time. They are the point of this thread. That's evidence. Feel free to dismiss it.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th June 2020, 01:33 PM   #3204
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,155
I object to the term trans-girl. It has a lot more baggage than "transwoman" and carries overtones of the person actually being a girl when the whole point is that he is not. Effeminate youth is more like it.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th June 2020, 02:43 PM   #3205
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,943
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The article was about menstrual health. It was addressed to "people who menstruate", because what it was discussing was menstrual health. Rowling made the point that they should have used the term "women" instead.
Because "women" is (or rather was) a convenient term for the sort of people who do menstruate or have done so, and are therefore in a good position to advocate for various women's health issues related to fertility. You are not even beginning to address the actual argument here (re: the political utility of sexual solidarity between human females in a patriarchal polity) despite repeatedly attempting engaging the issue. Instead, you've pointed out that the boundary between girlhood and womanhood is fuzzy (as if semantic vaguenessWP somehow makes categorical terms useless) along with a few other problems of overinclusion or underinclusion, which aren't actually that important if your goal is to bring (future) women together for the sake of issue advocacy.

ETA: Do you (or anyone) sincerely believe that Rowling is unaware of the fact that "people who menstruate" more accurately captures the set of people who menstruate than other words or phrases? If not, can you begin to consider that there may be values other than linguistic precision in play here? Perhaps Rowling (whom I've yet to see you quote) has values other than those you are saying she should maximize, based on how you believe she ought to operate as a woman in the world.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 20th June 2020 at 04:33 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 01:26 AM   #3206
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,566
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When a group of girls go to the school board and ask that the trans-girl not be allowed to use their locker room, I think of that as evidence that the girls are uncomfortable.


These objections happen all the time. They are the point of this thread. That's evidence. Feel free to dismiss it.
Nobody is claiming that every single girl and woman on the planet will be comfortable around trans women and girls.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 02:16 AM   #3207
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,566
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Because "women" is (or rather was) a convenient term for the sort of people who do menstruate or have done so, and are therefore in a good position to advocate for various women's health issues related to fertility. You are not even beginning to address the actual argument here (re: the political utility of sexual solidarity between human females in a patriarchal polity) despite repeatedly attempting engaging the issue. Instead, you've pointed out that the boundary between girlhood and womanhood is fuzzy (as if semantic vaguenessWP somehow makes categorical terms useless) along with a few other problems of overinclusion or underinclusion, which aren't actually that important if your goal is to bring (future) women together for the sake of issue advocacy.

ETA: Do you (or anyone) sincerely believe that Rowling is unaware of the fact that "people who menstruate" more accurately captures the set of people who menstruate than other words or phrases? If not, can you begin to consider that there may be values other than linguistic precision in play here? Perhaps Rowling (whom I've yet to see you quote) has values other than those you are saying she should maximize, based on how you believe she ought to operate as a woman in the world.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
All you're really saying here is that Rowling highlighted this article about menstrual health written by three experts in menstrual health in order to pointedly exclude trans people from anything even relating to women's issues. It seems odd that you think I'm unaware of that. It's even odder that you think that this somehow makes what she said less stupid or less wrong.

This blog post about the importance of saying "people who menstruate" rather than "women" was cited in an open letter to Rowling, posted by a menstrual health charity, and tweeted by the authors of the article in question. Now, who do you think is likely to know best what terminology people working in the field of menstrual health should be using - JK Rowling, or people who work in the field of menstrual health?

BTW, unless you're really keen on advertising for Samsung, you should be aware that you can turn off the Tapatalk signature in settings.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

Last edited by Squeegee Beckenheim; 21st June 2020 at 02:25 AM.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st June 2020, 03:09 AM   #3208
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,925
Mod InfoThread needs a continuation thread, see: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post13132482 as ever copy from and reference this thread as needed.
Posted By:Darat
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 21st June 2020 at 03:11 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:23 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.