ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

Closed Thread
Old 23rd December 2019, 05:06 PM   #3401
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,275
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
It's more realistic to attribute the first year in office to the prior POTUS. Imagine what this chart would look like then.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2019, 06:41 PM   #3402
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,032
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Seems odd in light of the fact that GOPers "weren't seriously worried about what he would do..."

You want to explain that contradiction?
It's almost as if their obsessive hostility to him were about not how he would do the job, but something else about him...
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2019, 06:48 PM   #3403
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 29,829
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It's almost as if their obsessive hostility to him were about not how he would do the job, but something else about him...
Mustard colored suit! Ok, you can skip the first and third words.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2019, 11:38 PM   #3404
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,073
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It's almost as if their obsessive hostility to him were about not how he would do the job, but something else about him...
Like all ex-Presidents, he benefits from being so much more reasonable than the current crop of extremist candidates from his party.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th December 2019, 12:00 AM   #3405
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 24,658
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I listed the people that matter
You did? Sorry I missed that post. Give me a link.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th December 2019, 12:04 AM   #3406
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 24,658
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Like all ex-Presidents, he benefits from being so much more reasonable than the current crop of extremist candidates from his party.
That word, and "radical" have been so overused and abused by the right that they have little meaning any more.

You might say that only a radical, extremist conservative would use them anymore!
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th December 2019, 12:15 PM   #3407
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,073
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
That word, and "radical" have been so overused and abused by the right that they have little meaning any more.

You might say that only a radical, extremist conservative would use them anymore!
We cons are more used to being described as reactionary, but yeah, the extremist label cuts both ways.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th December 2019, 12:20 PM   #3408
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,969
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
You did? Sorry I missed that post. Give me a link.
Any swing voter in a swing state essentially. Why even bother with a primary in California or New York?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th December 2019, 09:22 PM   #3409
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,073
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Any swing voter in a swing state essentially. Why even bother with a primary in California or New York?
Believe it or not, the presidential election is not the only race that will appear on the primary ballots in those states--there are representatives and senators and local elections as well. And even though those states may not be competitive in the general election, they can certainly have tight races in the presidential primaries.

And there is another reason--money. States that have primaries and caucuses benefit from the money spent by the campaigns. Consider Amy Klobuchar. She's not a top-tier candidate; she's stuck back in the pack. And she has 18 offices and 80 staffers in Iowa. The top tier candidates (Biden, Sanders, Warren and Buttigieg) all have 20-24 offices, and it's not hard to guess that those candidates have more staffers per office.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 10:26 AM   #3410
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 29,829
In my state the presidential primary is separate from the regular primary. In the past it has generated little interest because of the late date but I see it's moved up to March this time. And it appears only the Dems are participating.
The regular primary isn't until August.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

Last edited by Trebuchet; 26th December 2019 at 10:29 AM.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 02:12 PM   #3411
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,073
Warren shakes the money tree but not the wine cave:

Quote:
Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s campaign told supporters in an email on Friday that, so far, it has raised just over $17 million in the fourth quarter, a significant drop from her fundraising haul during the third quarter.

The memo asks backers to step up giving to the campaign.

“So far this quarter, we’ve raised a little over $17 million. That’s a good chunk behind where we were at this time last quarter,” it says.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 04:53 PM   #3412
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,732
Bernie Sanders coming back strong. Democratic insiders on alert.

Quote:
“It may have been inevitable that eventually you would have two candidates representing each side of the ideological divide in the party. A lot of smart people I’ve talked to lately think there’s a very good chance those two end up being Biden and Sanders,” said David Brock, a longtime Hillary Clinton ally who founded a pro-Clinton super PAC in the 2016 campaign. “They’ve both proven to be very resilient.”

Democratic insiders said they are rethinking Sanders’ bid for a few reasons: First, Warren has recently fallen in national and early state surveys. Second, Sanders has withstood the ups and downs of the primary, including a heart attack. At the same time, other candidates with once-high expectations, such as Kamala Harris, Cory Booker and Beto O’Rourke, have dropped out or languished in single digits in the polls.

“I believe people should take him very seriously. He has a very good shot of winning Iowa, a very good shot of winning New Hampshire, and other than Joe Biden, the best shot of winning Nevada,” said Dan Pfeiffer, who served as an adviser to former President Barack Obama. “He could build a real head of steam heading into South Carolina and Super Tuesday.”
Venom is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 05:45 PM   #3413
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,928
Joy of joys, the Far Left vs. Center Left dynamic again. Maybe it will prove to be as winning a formula as last time.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 27th December 2019 at 05:46 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 05:48 PM   #3414
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,380
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Joy of joys, the Far Left vs. Center Left dynamic again. Maybe it will prove to be as winning a formula as last time.
It certainly was...for Donald Trump!!!!!1!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 05:57 PM   #3415
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,732
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Joy of joys, the Far Left vs. Center Left dynamic again. Maybe it will prove to be as winning a formula as last time.
I think Sanders has a great chance of snatching back the Obama Trumpers.

It's funny though how Joe Biden is marginally the most favored among Obama-Trump voters, except for Trump himself.
Venom is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 06:04 PM   #3416
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,928
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think Sanders has a great chance of snatching back the Obama Trumpers.
Obama and Trump have so little in common I've more than a little trouble modeling this demographic. What did they both have to offer, aside from testicles?
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 27th December 2019 at 06:05 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 06:08 PM   #3417
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,095
Hillary Clinton is a loathsome and dreadful person, but she undoubtedly had the necessary brains and skills to be an effective president. If she couldn't win against Trump, then Creepy Uncle Biden sure as hell won't be able to. He's got twenty percent the brains and none of the skills she has. It's time to abandon the mythical "centrism" --which is actually just subservience to corporate interests while mouthing crowd-pleasing mantras-- and go for candidates with actually desirable political agendas. Warren, for the sane, and Sanders, for the zany. Either would be better than Biden.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 06:18 PM   #3418
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,732
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Obama and Trump have so little in common I've more than a little trouble modeling this demographic. What did they both have to offer, aside from testicles?
If you ask Bernie campaign leaders they swear it was the economic anxiety.

If you look at the Washington Post study or the 2018 study here it looks much simpler.
Venom is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 11:07 PM   #3419
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,041
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Joy of joys, the Far Left vs. Center Left dynamic again. Maybe it will prove to be as winning a formula as last time.
Mmm. First of all, Bernie isn't far left. Bernie is center left. Biden is maybe barely left of center. Maybe. Yes, you can try to argue that Bernie's far left for the US, but that's buying into the Republican and corporate media framing which lets them control the narrative to their own advantage, without much respect to fact or the whole picture.

Either way, one of the biggest problems for both Biden and Bernie is that they *both* have very significant unfavorable ratings within the Democratic Party and Democrat-leaners (more positive than negative, of course, but a lot of negative). And in an important difference to conservatives, fear-based motivation just isn't anywhere remotely close to as effective for liberals. Far more of them will be likely to just not vote. Warren's very low unfavorability rating is one of the reasons why I firmly favor her over both Bernie and Biden, either way.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think Sanders has a great chance of snatching back the Obama Trumpers.

It's funny though how Joe Biden is marginally the most favored among Obama-Trump voters, except for Trump himself.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Obama and Trump have so little in common I've more than a little trouble modeling this demographic. What did they both have to offer, aside from testicles?
I would suggest that a desire for "change" was a likely a common notable motivating similarity. Both Obama and Trump were candidates for change, albeit in different fashions, and it's worth noting that Trump did claim during his campaigning to support a lot of notably more popular (and left-leaning by virtue of the GOP candidates pretty much all going right-wing extremist) positions than the Republicans were generally supporting. The increase in effectiveness of right-wing nonsense propaganda for a bunch of reasons fairly certainly played into the dynamic there significantly, though.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 27th December 2019 at 11:08 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 11:28 PM   #3420
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,169
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Hillary Clinton is a loathsome and dreadful person
Let's stop, right here.

I've never really understood how she, any more than any other US politician, is this.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 11:49 PM   #3421
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 24,658
Agreed. She may not give you the political warm and fuzzies but that in no way makes her "loathsome and dreadful". She handled two very public humiliations, the loss to Obama and Bill's hummer, with class. She was an effective Senator and Secretary of State.

Lighten up, man.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 11:51 PM   #3422
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 24,658
dup

This thread is getting really slow; it needs another split.

Last edited by SezMe; 27th December 2019 at 11:54 PM.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 27th December 2019, 11:57 PM   #3423
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,718
Seeking the Democrats' Nomination, it's not just a bit rude for Bernie to call himself an Independent.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 12:34 AM   #3424
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,600
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Let's stop, right here.

I've never really understood how she, any more than any other US politician, is this.
If you repeat a lie often enough...

She didn't stay home baking cookies when her husband was POTUS.
__________________
TRUMP IS A LOSER!
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 12:38 AM   #3425
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,169
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think Sanders has a great chance of snatching back the Obama Trumpers.
"Obama-Trumpers" simply are not thinking. "I like Obama, but I'm also a birther". Go away, you are clearly an idiot to support both the first black president, and also violent white supremacism. I hope no campaign I like never seeks the support of any such idiot.

(If you changed over the 8 ensuing years, okay, but let's not even pretend that you can reasonably be both pro- and-anti white supremacist at the same time.)

Last edited by Mumbles; 28th December 2019 at 12:40 AM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 12:45 AM   #3426
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,095
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Let's stop, right here.

I've never really understood how she, any more than any other US politician, is this.
I don't recall saying she's more so than other politicians. She's certainly enough so to earn her my enmity. She was always too close to the big banks and finance industry for my liking (a failing Biden also shares, if indeed he doesn't surpass her there--he was once known as "the senator from MBNC") and her rather late and cynical about-face on the topic of gay rights didn't win her much love. She's too much of a party machine creature and always has been. I don't think I've ever heard her espouse a position that didn't seem calculated for its political advantage, as opposed to deriving from underlying principle. I did vote for her, given the alternative was even worse, and I think she would have made a decent president, but I wouldn't consider her a decent person and wouldn't trust her further than I could throw her stash of funnymoney.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 12:50 AM   #3427
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,095
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Agreed. She may not give you the political warm and fuzzies but that in no way makes her "loathsome and dreadful". She handled two very public humiliations, the loss to Obama and Bill's hummer, with class. She was an effective Senator and Secretary of State.

Lighten up, man.
I wouldn't consider losing to Obama a humiliation. Win a few, lose a few, that's part of the career of a politician.

As for her husband's scandal(s), they don't really reflect either positively or negatively on Hillary. Whatever credit she earned for loyally sticking by her man was negated by the points she lost for foolishly sticking by her man. She probably shouldn't have waded into the "believe her" business without considering her own past statements about her husband's accusers and how that reflected upon her...but like I said above, I don't think she was following an actual principle in there, she was just playing a strategy.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

Last edited by TragicMonkey; 28th December 2019 at 12:53 AM.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 12:52 AM   #3428
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,095
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If you repeat a lie often enough...

She didn't stay home baking cookies when her husband was POTUS.
Put it back in the deck. There are a lot of reasons to dislike Hillary Clinton that have nothing to do with her sex. And here's a hint: someone who dislikes Hillary out of mere sexism is hardly going to support Warren over all the other candidates. Warren, the one with actual principles behind her policy suggestions, Warren who pursues those principles even when they're not popular with the focus groups.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 03:24 AM   #3429
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,819
Christmas with Tulsi and her hubby:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 10:13 AM   #3430
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,732
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
"Obama-Trumpers" simply are not thinking. "I like Obama, but I'm also a birther". Go away, you are clearly an idiot to support both the first black president, and also violent white supremacism. I hope no campaign I like never seeks the support of any such idiot.

(If you changed over the 8 ensuing years, okay, but let's not even pretend that you can reasonably be both pro- and-anti white supremacist at the same time.)
I don't think they are necessarily "pro white supremacist" but they let it slide, possibly partly because Trump is white.

I need a good job, financial security for my family, I don't care about all that Washington drama. Media blowing it out of proportion, etc.

Of course if Obama acted like Trump I'm not so sure they'd be saying that.
Venom is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 11:19 AM   #3431
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Deputy Admin
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 13,916
Mod InfoPlease continue your discussion in Part III.
Posted By:Agatha
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 28th December 2019, 11:20 AM   #3432
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Deputy Admin
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 13,916
Mod InfoPlease continue your discussion in Part III.
Posted By:Agatha
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.