IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 14th December 2019, 11:01 PM   #1
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
IG Horowitz report thread.

Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn Simpson discussed their investigation into President Trump and the creation of the Steele dossier.

This was another excellent interview discussing the Horowitz report, the Carter Page, the Steele dossier, all the Russian and Trumpian players. This was an important interview given Barr and Trump are still trying to quash the Mueller report. They are completely distorting the Horowitz finding. There were so many important things revealed in this interview. It's well worth the hour.

Excuse the caps, CSPAN text is always in caps.
Quote:
THE BODY OF EVIDENCE THAT IS EMERGED, LEAVES A LITTLE QUESTION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED. THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO ELECT TRUMP PRESIDENT AND HE INSTIGATED AND ENCOURAGED IT. WHETHER THERE'S ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO CHARGE YOU CAN'T ARGUE THERE WAS 140 CONTACTS BETWEEN TRUMP PEOPLE OR QUESTIONS DURING THE CAMPAIGN. TRUMP WAS DOING BUSINESS, TRYING TO DO BUSINESS SECRETLY DURING THE CAMPAIGN. SUE TO MY MIND, THIS WAS REALLY CLEAR. I GET THE FACT THAT OTHER PEOPLE DON'T SEE THAT BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN THIS DELIBERATE EFFORT TO OBSCURE THAT. THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF OUR GOVERNMENT TRUMP AND ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THE BARR HAS SUCCEEDED TO SOME EXTENT INTO CONFUSING ABOUT THE FACTS.

CAN YOU DRAW A STRAIGHT LINE OR A CROOKED BIND BETWEEN YOUR AUGUST 2015 E-MAIL TO YOUR REPUBLICAN FRIEND OF MULLER REPORT?

IT'S MY LIFE SO FOR ME, THE ORIGINAL STATELINE IS HANDLING. BUT I THINK IN GENERAL, THIS IS THE CULMINATION THAT I HAVE BEEN WORRIED ABOUT AND INTERESTED IN FOR VERY LONG TIME IN TERMS OF THE INCREASING DESTABILIZATION OF THE LEFT BY THIS WAVE OF CRIMINALITY COMING OUT OF THE EAST. THE FACT THAT IT HAS SEEPED INTO OUR POLITICS, INFECTED OUR POLITICS
Compare that interview to the National Review's version: The Damning Inspector General’s Report
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 14th December 2019 at 11:08 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2019, 04:55 PM   #2
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,077
Wow, way to ignore that the Steele dossier was a complete and utter fabrication that should never have been relied upon by anybody.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2019, 06:01 PM   #3
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Wow, way to ignore that the Steele dossier was a complete and utter fabrication that should never have been relied upon by anybody.
Really? We need to clear that lie up first before we can discuss the bigger issues?
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2019, 06:31 PM   #4
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,826
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Really? We need to clear that lie up first before we can discuss the bigger issues?
The National Review piece is virtually unreadable. That person is trying so hard to belittle just about everyone that I'm having a hard time figuring out what he's trying to say.

The CSPAN interview might be better, but from what you've posted, I find it just as hard to follow. The errors in transcripts bother me inordinately, so that might be part of it.

From just a cursory view, both seem to be trying too hard to tell me what to think, and both have heavy built-in bias.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2019, 07:32 PM   #5
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The National Review piece is virtually unreadable. That person is trying so hard to belittle just about everyone that I'm having a hard time figuring out what he's trying to say.

The CSPAN interview might be better, but from what you've posted, I find it just as hard to follow. The errors in transcripts bother me inordinately, so that might be part of it.

From just a cursory view, both seem to be trying too hard to tell me what to think, and both have heavy built-in bias.
It's an hour and I realize that's not something many people want to watch. I plan to post more quotes from it but I don't have time tonight.
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2019, 07:45 PM   #6
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 29,914
Near as I can tell from the Republicans, the IG report is:
A) A complete and utter vindication of Trump, along with condemnation of Hillary and Comey who should be locked up; and
B) You shouldn't believe a word of it since (((Horowitz))) was appointed by Obama.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2019, 11:49 PM   #7
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Near as I can tell from the Republicans, the IG report is:
A) A complete and utter vindication of Trump, along with condemnation of Hillary and Comey who should be locked up; and
B) You shouldn't believe a word of it since (((Horowitz))) was appointed by Obama.
I think that's close.
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 12:41 AM   #8
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,077
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Near as I can tell from the Republicans, the IG report is:
A) A complete and utter vindication of Trump, along with condemnation of Hillary and Comey who should be locked up; and
B) You shouldn't believe a word of it since (((Horowitz))) was appointed by Obama.
Let's leave Trump out of it for now (although of course the report does throw cold water on the golden showers allegation). What about Carter Page? Is anybody outraged that an American citizen's communications were monitored by the FBI on the basis that he had had contacts with Russian intelligence sources, even though the FBI knew that he had disclosed those contacts to the CIA and been approved as an "operational contact" by the CIA.

Quote:
The specifics cited by the IG Report are even more damning. Specifically, “based upon the information known to the FBI in October 2016, the first application contained [] seven significant inaccuracies and omissions.” Among those “significant inaccuracies and omissions”: the FBI concealed that Page had been working with the CIA in connection with his dealings with Russia and had notified CIA case managers of at least some of those contacts after he was “approved as an ‘operational contact'” with Russia; the FBI lied about both the timing and substance of Page’s relationship with the CIA; vastly overstated the value and corroboration of Steele’s prior work for the U.S. Government to make him appear more credible than he was; and concealed from the court serious reasons to doubt the reliability of Steele’s key source.

Moreover, the FBI’s heavy reliance on the Steele Dossier to obtain the FISA warrant – a fact that many leading national security reporters spent two years denying occurred – was particularly concerning because, as the IG Report put it, “we found that the FBI did not have information corroborating the specific allegations against Carter Page in Steele’s reporting when it relied upon his reports in the first FISA application or subsequent renewal applications.”

To spy on a U.S. citizen in the middle of an election, one who had just been working with one of the two major presidential campaigns, the FBI touted a gossipy, unverified, unreliable rag that it had no reason to believe and every reason to distrust, but it hid all of that from the FISA court, which it knew needed to believe that the Steele Dossier was something it was not if it were to give the FBI the spying authorization it wanted.
Really, that article by Glenn Greenwald should be read by everyone. BTW, I agree that the National Review article included in the OP is over the top.

Did anybody see Comey's interview with Chris Wallace (not a Trump fan) today?

Quote:
In response, Wallace asked pointedly, "Would you agree the FISA [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] court was also given false information by the FBI?"

Comey conceded that this was the case.

It was a methodical evisceration of the fired FBI chief, who attempted to downplay his own mistakes and contextualize previous statements he made that no longer hold up in the wake of Inspector General Michael Horowitz's report. Horowitz chronicled the FBI's appalling failures during its handling of the Russia probe, including 17 incidents of "serious performance failures." Wallace raised three key issues with Comey, who tried and failed to explain them away.
Key bit:

Quote:
First, Wallace pointed out that Comey had previously described the Steele dossier—a key piece of evidence used by the FBI to secure a FISA warrant for Trump campaign advisor Carter Page—as "part of a broader mosaic of facts" against Page. According to the Horowitz report, this was spin on the part of Comey: In fact, the Steele dossier was the fundamental component of the warrant.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 11:27 PM   #9
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let's leave Trump out of it for now (although of course the report does throw cold water on the golden showers allegation). What about Carter Page? Is anybody outraged that an American citizen's communications were monitored by the FBI on the basis that he had had contacts with Russian intelligence sources, even though the FBI knew that he had disclosed those contacts to the CIA and been approved as an "operational contact" by the CIA....
I may look at the rest of that later but this needs addressing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page
Quote:
Page was the subject of a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrant in2014, at least two years earlier than was indicated in the stories concerning his role in the 2016 presidential campaign of Donald Trump,[28][29] 2017 news accounts about the warrant indicated it was granted because of Page's ties to Buryakov, Podobnyy, and the third Russian who attempted to recruit him, Igor Sporyshev.[28...

Trump announced Page as a foreign policy adviser in his campaign on March 21, 2016.[30] On September 23, 2016, Yahoo News reported U.S. intelligence officials investigated alleged contacts between Page and Russian officials subject to U.S. sanctions, including Igor Sechin, the president of state-run Russian oil conglomerate Rosneft.[4] Page promptly left the Trump campaign.[1][31] Upon his departure, Trump campaign communications director Jason Miller said of Page, "He’s never been a part of our campaign. Period."[32]

Shortly after Page left the Trump campaign, the Federal Bureau of Investigation obtained another warrant from the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) in October 2016 to surveil Page's communications and read his saved emails.[33][34] To issue the warrant, a federal judge concluded there was probable cause to believe that Page was a foreign agent knowingly engaging in clandestine intelligence for the Russian government.[35] The initial 90-day warrant was subsequently renewed three times.[36]...
The idea this was some innocent citizen targeted by the FBI because he joined the Trump campaign is typical Trumper talking point BS,
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 17th December 2019 at 12:06 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 11:36 PM   #10
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,077
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I may look at the rest of that later but this needs addressing.

The idea this was some innocent citizen targeted by the FBI because he joined the Trump campaign is typical Trumper talking point BS,
Cite?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 11:51 PM   #11
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I may look at the rest of that later but this needs addressing.

The idea this was some innocent citizen targeted by the FBI because he joined the Trump campaign is typical Trumper talking point BS,
You're right, he wasn't just some citizen. He was a CIA contact. The FBI lied to the FISA courts by claiming he wasn't, in order to make his contacts with Russians more suspicious than they actually were. He was never a Russian asset, and the FBI knew it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 12:06 AM   #12
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Cite?
Sorry, an oversight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page

Wiki but well sourced. A search resulted in a page of recent stuff to wade through.
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 12:10 AM   #13
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're right, he wasn't just some citizen. He was a CIA contact. The FBI lied to the FISA courts by claiming he wasn't, in order to make his contacts with Russians more suspicious than they actually were. He was never a Russian asset, and the FBI knew it.
CIA contact? I didn't see anything about that anywhere. I think you may have gotten that from alt-right propaganda cites.

I'm willing to look at any valid sources you have, though I don't see one bit of evidence the FBI was targeting the Trump campaign except for the fact they were indeed involved in the Russian interference in the 2016 election.
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 12:24 AM   #14
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
CIA contact? I didn't see anything about that anywhere. I think you may have gotten that from alt-right propaganda cites.

I'm willing to look at any valid sources you have, though I don't see one bit of evidence the FBI was targeting the Trump campaign except for the fact they were indeed involved in the Russian interference in the 2016 election.
The IG report doesn’t specify that it was the CIA, just another government agency. I think page himself might have said it was the CIA. But the FBI lied to the FISA court about him being a contact, that’s directly from the IG report.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 12:32 AM   #15
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The IG report doesn’t specify that it was the CIA, just another government agency. I think page himself might have said it was the CIA. But the FBI lied to the FISA court about him being a contact, that’s directly from the IG report.
You're going to have to quote from the AG report if you want to discuss it.
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:11 AM   #16
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 42,804
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Wow, way to ignore that the Steele dossier was a complete and utter fabrication that should never have been relied upon by anybody.
It wasn't.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:26 AM   #17
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,077
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're going to have to quote from the AG report if you want to discuss it.
The info on his association with the CIA was in my post that you quoted, and that you then responded to by quoting Wikipedia.

__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 17th December 2019 at 01:28 AM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 05:45 AM   #18
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It wasn't.
The IG report makes it clear that it was relied upon to issue warrants.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 06:29 AM   #19
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,767
Welcome to the Twilight Zone, where liberals insist that the feds are all saints and conservatives are screaming from the rooftops about the sanctity of the 4th Amendment.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 06:33 AM   #20
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're going to have to quote from the AG report if you want to discuss it.
https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf

From page 159-160
As described later in Chapters Seven and Eight, none of the three renewal applications described Page's prior historical contacts and relationship with the other U.S. government agency, even after the FBI received additional information from the other agency in June 2017. In April and May 2017, following news reports that the FBI had obtained a FISA targeting Carter Page, Page gave interviews to news outlets denying that he had collected intelligence for the Russian government and asserting instead that he had previously shared information that he had learned with the U.S. intelligence community. In mid-June 2017, in response to concerns expressed by members of the Crossfire Hurricane team, the OGC Attorney contacted the other U.S. government agency by email to seek clarification about Page's past status with that agency. The other U.S. government agency responded by email to the FBI OGC attorney by directing the attorney to memoranda previously sent to the FBI by the other U.S. government agency that informed the FBI that Page did previously have a relationship with that other agency and that the last contact occurred in July 2011. The email also stated, using the other agency's terminology, that Page had a relationship with that other agency. However, when asked about Page's prior status with that other agency by a Crossfire Hurricane supervisor, SSA 2, who was going to be the affiant on the final FISA renewal application, the OGC Attorney told SSA 2 that Page had never had a relationship with the other U.S. government agency. In addition, the OGC Attorney altered the email that the other U.S. government agency had sent to the OGC Attorney so that the email stated that Page had not been a source for the other agency; the OGC Attorney then forwarded the altered email to SSA 2, who told us he relied on the email. Shortly thereafter, SSA 2 served as the affiant on the final renewal application, which was again silent on Page's prior relationship with the other U.S. government agency.
So the OGC Attorney fabricated evidence to claim Page was not a government source, when the FBI had an obligation to tell the court that he was.

Also, its the Inspector General (IG) report, not the AG report.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by Ziggurat; 17th December 2019 at 06:35 AM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 12:54 PM   #21
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The IG report makes it clear that it was relied upon to issue warrants.
The GOP talking points claim that. It's a false claim.
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:18 PM   #22
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The GOP talking points claim that. It's a false claim.
You have that exactly backwards. It's a Democrat talking point that the dossier wasn't relied upon. But as you've already demonstrated, you don't have a clue about what the IG report contains.

From the executive summary, page vii:
In support of the fourth element in the FISA application-Carter Page's alleged coordination with the Russian government on 2016 U.S. presidential election activities - the application relied entirely on the following information from Steele Reports
page viii:
We found that the FBI d id not have information corroborating the specific allegations against Carter Page in Steele's reporting when it relied upon his reports in the first FISA application or subsequent renewal applications.
page 359:
We concluded that the Crossfire Hurricane team's receipt of Steele's election reporting on September 19, 2016, played a central and essential role in the decision by FBI OGC to support the request for FISA surveillance targeting Carter Page, as well as the Department's ultimate decision to seek the FISA order.
page 360:
FBI leadership supported relying on Steele's reporting to seek a FISA order authorizing surveillance targeting Page after being advised of, and giving consideration to, the concerns expressed by Evans that Steele may have been hired by someone associated with presidential candidate Clinton or the DNC, and that the foreign intelligence to be collected through the FISA order would probably not be worth the "risk" of being criticized later for collecting communications of someone (Carter Page) who was "politically sensitive."
page 363:
In all four [FISA] applications, the factual basis supporting probable cause relied upon Page's historical (pre-2016) contacts with known Russian intelligence officers, as well as information from four Steele reports (Reports 80, 94, 95, and 102).
Let's see if you can admit your error.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by Ziggurat; 17th December 2019 at 01:20 PM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:19 PM   #23
ChristianProgressive
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,715
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The IG report makes it clear that it was relied upon to issue warrants.
It wasn't a fabrication.
__________________
"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:22 PM   #24
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
It wasn't a fabrication.
The IG report also makes clear that Steele's reporting was largely unsubstantiated, uncertainties about its reliability were not accurately conveyed to the FISA court, and false claims in support of Steele's reliability were submitted to the court.

But keep on pretending that there were no problems, if that makes you feel better.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:25 PM   #25
ChristianProgressive
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,715
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The IG report also makes clear that Steele's reporting was largely unsubstantiated, uncertainties about its reliability were not accurately conveyed to the FISA court, and false claims in support of Steele's reliability were submitted to the court.

But keep on pretending that there were no problems, if that makes you feel better.
"Unsubstantiated" =/= fabrication.

And much of it HAS been substantiated.
__________________
"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:27 PM   #26
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,780
The IG didn't have access to Steele's sources - but even Durham found him credible.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:38 PM   #27
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 84,701
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf

From page 159-160
As described later in Chapters Seven and Eight, none of the three renewal applications described Page's prior historical contacts and relationship with the other U.S. government agency, even after the FBI received additional information from the other agency in June 2017. In April and May 2017, following news reports that the FBI had obtained a FISA targeting Carter Page, Page gave interviews to news outlets denying that he had collected intelligence for the Russian government and asserting instead that he had previously shared information that he had learned with the U.S. intelligence community. In mid-June 2017, in response to concerns expressed by members of the Crossfire Hurricane team, the OGC Attorney contacted the other U.S. government agency by email to seek clarification about Page's past status with that agency. The other U.S. government agency responded by email to the FBI OGC attorney by directing the attorney to memoranda previously sent to the FBI by the other U.S. government agency that informed the FBI that Page did previously have a relationship with that other agency and that the last contact occurred in July 2011. The email also stated, using the other agency's terminology, that Page had a relationship with that other agency. However, when asked about Page's prior status with that other agency by a Crossfire Hurricane supervisor, SSA 2, who was going to be the affiant on the final FISA renewal application, the OGC Attorney told SSA 2 that Page had never had a relationship with the other U.S. government agency. In addition, the OGC Attorney altered the email that the other U.S. government agency had sent to the OGC Attorney so that the email stated that Page had not been a source for the other agency; the OGC Attorney then forwarded the altered email to SSA 2, who told us he relied on the email. Shortly thereafter, SSA 2 served as the affiant on the final renewal application, which was again silent on Page's prior relationship with the other U.S. government agency.
So the OGC Attorney fabricated evidence to claim Page was not a government source, when the FBI had an obligation to tell the court that he was.

Also, its the Inspector General (IG) report, not the AG report.
Care to highlight where it says the FISA warrant relied on false information.
__________________
Trump lost and he knows it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:47 PM   #28
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,316
How do you substantiate something if you don't investigate it?
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:49 PM   #29
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
"Unsubstantiated" =/= fabrication.
I didn't say it was fabricated. But that doesn't suffice.

Quote:
And much of it HAS been substantiated.
That's really not true. Page 196:
Despite the FBI's efforts to corroborate and evaluate the Steele election reporting, we were told by the Supervisory Intel Analyst that, as of September 2017, the FBI had corroborated limited information in the Steele election reporting, and much of that information was publicly available. 352 Most relevant to the Carter Page FISA applications, the specific substantive allegations contained in Reports 80, 94, 95, and 102, which were relied upon in all four FISA applications, remained uncorroborated and, in several instances, were inconsistent with information gathered by the Crossfire Hurricane team.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:50 PM   #30
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The IG didn't have access to Steele's sources - but even Durham found him credible.
Not directly, but the FBI did, and the IG details what the FBI found from Steele's source, which conflicted with what Steele claimed the source told him.

ETA: and we don't know yet what Durham's judgment is going to be.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by Ziggurat; 17th December 2019 at 01:53 PM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:55 PM   #31
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I may look at the rest of that later but this needs addressing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page
The idea this was some innocent citizen targeted by the FBI because he joined the Trump campaign is typical Trumper talking point BS,
Who gives a ****, he was still an US citizen spied on by the FBI who obtained and maintained a secret warrant by repeatedly lying to the court.

I'd be relieved if they found evidence of wide spread bias, instead they just found that the FBI is willing to fabricate evidence to spy on Americans for.....lulz....because they had it comming......hey if you don't have anything to hide why would you worry about being spied on?
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 01:59 PM   #32
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,316
Am I understanding this right in that the last time Page worked with the CIA, or had contact, was in 2011?

Quote:
...that Page did previously have a relationship with that other agency and that the last contact occurred in July 2011
Are you still determined to be a CIA contact if you haven't had any contact with them in 5 years? Legit question, I don't know how being a CIA contact works.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 02:00 PM   #33
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,826
As far as I can tell the implication is that the OLC falsified an email to make it look like Page did not have a previous relationship with another government agency, because the OLC thought that would help with the warrant renewal.

But really, if I had contact with foreign governments and had furnished U.S. agencies with intel from those contacts I would kind of *expect* the government to eavesdrop. If I were a judge, knowing someone was a previous CIA informant would make me MORE likely to authorize a tap, not less.

My scandal threshold is pretty high, though. And there's no guarantee I'm interpreting that verbiage correctly, either.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 02:18 PM   #34
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Am I understanding this right in that the last time Page worked with the CIA, or had contact, was in 2011?



Are you still determined to be a CIA contact if you haven't had any contact with them in 5 years? Legit question, I don't know how being a CIA contact works.
Page 247-248:
As noted in Chapter Five, on or about August 17, 2016, while early FISA discussions were ongoing, the Crossfire Hurricane team received a memorandum (August 17 Memorandum) from another U.S. government agency relating to Page's prior relationship with that agency, including that Page had been approved for operational contact from 2008 to 2013. The information also described Page's prior interactions with Russian intelligence officers about which the agency was aware, including contacts Page had with a Russian intelligence officer (Intelligence Officer 1), which were among the historical connections to Russian intelligence officers that the FBI later relied upon in the first FISA application (and subsequent renewal applications) to help support probable cause. We found that, although this information was highly relevant to the FISA application, the Crossfire Hurricane team did not engage with the other agency regarding this information. In addition, in response to a question from the QI Attorney in September 2016 as to whether Carter Page had a current or prior relationship with the other agency, Case Agent 1 provided the OI Attorney with inaccurate information that failed to disclose the extent and nature of Page's relationship with that agency. As a result, the first FISA application, and FISA Renewal Application Nos. 1 and 2, contained no information regarding Page's relationship with the other U.S. government agency, and did not reveal that his relationship with the other agency overlapped in part with facts asserted in the application regarding Page's ties to particular Russian intelligence officers.
In other words, the FBI used past interactions between Page and Russian intelligence as justification for its FISA application, contacts from the time period in which he was an approved contact and was briefing the other agency about his dealings with the Russians. But the FBI failed to tell the court that Page was an intelligence contact for another agency and that this other agency was already aware of this contact, and in fact one FBI employee forged evidence to conceal this. And note again the importance of this: the warrant was based on the assertion that these contacts showed Page might be working for the Russians. But in truth he was working for the Americans, and the knowledge that page was an approved contact would have informed the court of this possibility.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by Ziggurat; 17th December 2019 at 02:19 PM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 02:30 PM   #35
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 42,804
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
How do you substantiate something if you don't investigate it?
They keep conflating an investigation with a trial. You investigate because you don't have the answers.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 02:37 PM   #36
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,316
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In other words, the FBI used past interactions between Page and Russian intelligence as justification for its FISA application, contacts from the time period in which he was an approved contact and was briefing the other agency about his dealings with the Russians. But the FBI failed to tell the court that Page was an intelligence contact for another agency and that this other agency was already aware of this contact, and in fact one FBI employee forged evidence to conceal this. And note again the importance of this: the warrant was based on the assertion that these contacts showed Page might be working for the Russians. But in truth he was working for the Americans, and the knowledge that page was an approved contact would have informed the court of this possibility.
If he's working as a contact for the government, no matter the agency, why can't they get his phone details? I won't deny this wasn't the way to go about it but government agencies having dick waving fights isn't something new. This whole thing confuses me which is why I've stayed out of this particular topic for the most part. If he was working for the CIA why didn't the CIA turn over all available information to the FBI?
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 02:43 PM   #37
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,475
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If he's working as a contact for the government, no matter the agency, why can't they get his phone details? I won't deny this wasn't the way to go about it but government agencies having dick waving fights isn't something new. This whole thing confuses me which is why I've stayed out of this particular topic for the most part. If he was working for the CIA why didn't the CIA turn over all available information to the FBI?
The FBI didn't ask for it. The simplest explanation is that their interest in him was always pretextual, and what they really wanted was an excuse to go after the Trump campaign.

OK, that's probably the second simplest explanation, the simplest being the FBI is staffed by complete ******* morons. But despite the advantage of simplicity, I find that explanation less likely.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 02:47 PM   #38
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,316
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The FBI didn't ask for it. The simplest explanation is that their interest in him was always pretextual, and what they really wanted was an excuse to go after the Trump campaign.

OK, that's probably the second simplest explanation, the simplest being the FBI is staffed by complete ******* morons. But despite the advantage of simplicity, I find that explanation less likely.
Occam's razor leads me to believe this is false though. They were going after the Trump campaign but only 1 staffers phone data? They didn't announce the investigation into Trump but openly stated it about Hillary? I don't know, seems like if that were the case they did the absolute worst job of it ever.

Oh well, I'll fade back into the shadows on this topic. To be honest, it's not even in the top few reasons why I want Trump impeached. Punish the people that ****** up in the FBI, but unless they somehow obtained information they wouldn't have otherwise gotten, this doesn't really interest me. I'm not forgiving it, just doesn't mean much to me in the grand scheme of things.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 03:22 PM   #39
ChristianProgressive
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,715
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Who gives a ****, he was still an US citizen spied on by the FBI who obtained and maintained a secret warrant by repeatedly lying to the court.

I'd be relieved if they found evidence of wide spread bias, instead they just found that the FBI is willing to fabricate evidence to spy on Americans for.....lulz....because they had it comming......hey if you don't have anything to hide why would you worry about being spied on?
Nothing was fabricated. The IG said the investigation was both free of bias and warranted.
__________________
"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 03:24 PM   #40
ChristianProgressive
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,715
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
what they really wanted was an excuse to go after the Trump campaign.
.
I WANT the FBI to go after the treasonous pigs of the Trump campaign. Catching traitors is part of their job.
__________________
"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:54 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.