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Old 19th November 2018, 01:22 PM   #321
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quite easily, in fact, given that the brain can simulate sensory inputs. It's a map, not a territory, mind you. The territory doesn't exist. The map does.

Ask a random four year old, if you're still confused.
Can't phrase it.
If the map is not the same as the territory and the territory doesn't exist, what is it you are trying to say?
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Old 19th November 2018, 03:40 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, witches don't exist. Maps do.
Some witches do exist, in fact I have been one for a very long time, not like the ones in Sabrina or The Witch.

More like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawin...the_Moon_(book)
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Old 19th November 2018, 03:44 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Can't phrase it.
If the map is not the same as the territory and the territory doesn't exist, what is it you are trying to say?
What does it mean for something to exist or not exist?
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Old 20th November 2018, 02:24 AM   #324
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
What does it mean for something to exist or not exist?
Good luck with that one, since I don't believe in existence as most people do. It is one of those words, where when you look closer, it turns out to be redundant in some sense.
Here is what happens, take a cat, the cat on the mat from logical positivism. Look at it, describe it and so on. Now ask, what the cat exists, means other that a list of its properties? Remove all the properties and what is left? Nothing, so the cat doesn't exist as pure existence; i.e. pure being.

Rather existence is something else. Existence is the belief that there is something beyond solipsism and what you experience, is also there in general independently of you as it also appear to you. Existence is a case of metaphysics.
Now you do metaphysics in combination with epistemology. I.e. you describe what reality is in terms of what you believe as true(knowledge) in relationship to the rest of reality.
You never go for just something in itself, because something is always connected to something else.

So what is non-existence, if it is not something in itself, but a relationship to something else.
Well, it is a compound word of "no relationship with me", but the trick is that there is also a relationship, so "no relationship with me" is always another relationship. If there is no chair in the room, there is something else, air and so on.
Then what about the use in metaphysics of what reality actually is? Well, if "is" is a relationship and you ask what is there without the relationship, my answer is that I don't know that, because to know requires a relationship and to ask what there is without the relationship, mean it is unknowable.

So existence and non-existence depends on how you combine metaphysics and epistemology. If you go the route of metaphysics (and ontology) in itself, existence and non-existence becomes meaningless.
Rather you combine the belief in a non-solipsistic reality with how knowledge works. Knowledge is a relationship between something and something else and the moment you go for something in itself you contradict the relationship. Knowledge is to explain how it works for you in relationship to something else.
But the joke is that in terms of relationship, the "I" is a relationship, which relates to the idea of the relationship. "I" am a list of relationships of similarities and difference to the rest of reality. "I" is not in itself.
So reality as having existence independently of the mind, is nonsense, when you look closer. E.g. there was a universe before humans, requires humans to say that: There was a universe before humans.

Now what works and control are in practice, is a different matter, but for philosophy existence and non-existence is explained using a combination of metaphysics and epistemology (and logic of course).

There is nothing in itself, because that leads to dualism and a false dichotomy.
You always explain reality as interconnected between parts and never go for existence qua existence itself.
As a joke; sort of: Philosophy is the study in general of how the words "everything, something, something else and/or nothing" work for everything, something, something else and/or nothing.

Now of course you don't have to be me and nor in reverse, so if we believe differently, then that is how it is.
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Old 20th November 2018, 03:15 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Can't phrase it.
If the map is not the same as the territory and the territory doesn't exist, what is it you are trying to say?
Exactly that.

As I said, if I draw a plane, the drawing of the plane exists but it's not an actual plane. It can't fly to Japan or carry passengers on the tarmac. It's. Not. A. Plane. It's a drawing of a plane, which is a different thing. A belief in god is not a god. It's a mental process. It exists but as a different thing, not a god.
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Old 20th November 2018, 05:14 AM   #326
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Exactly that.

As I said, if I draw a plane, the drawing of the plane exists but it's not an actual plane. It can't fly to Japan or carry passengers on the tarmac. It's. Not. A. Plane. It's a drawing of a plane, which is a different thing. A belief in god is not a god. It's a mental process. It exists but as a different thing, not a god.
We agree, yet we don't.
But that is also the problem of some positives and negatives.
Including all versions of wrong and not just morally wrong.
To say that someone is intellectually wrong, is a map statement and not a statement about the territory.
The same goes for all version of real and unreal. There are no real things, because a thing doesn't have the property of being real.
A real thing is to confuse the map(real) with the territory(thing).
So that "the map is not the same as the territory" is a part of the map and not the territory.
You want to be precise about the difference between map and territory.
Fair enough. That you and I have different understandings of map and territory take place as different maps, yet we communicate through the territory; i.e. the Internet as a collection of physical things and our bodies.
So that you make a map claim, "the map is not the same as the territory", travels through the territory and are compared with my map.
My map says the map and the territory must be interconnected, otherwise we have dualism, but that can't explain what happens here on this screen including yours.

So we agree that in one sense the map and the territory are not the same, but whether we disagree about that the map and the territory are interconnected I don't know.
But I know this: Your belief(map) that the map and the territory are not the same lead you to do something in the territory, namely post on this forum.

BTW the mental is not a thing, it is connected to a thing, but it is not a thing. It is the mental.
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Old 20th November 2018, 05:27 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
We agree, yet we don't.
Only you could embrace a contradiction so blatantly.

Quote:
To say that someone is intellectually wrong
You're the only one using that turn of phrase. I'm saying that something is either wrong or not. I'm not talking about intellectually or morally or hillbilly. Factually. Something's either true or not, and that has nothing to do with your beliefs.

Quote:
is a map statement and not a statement about the territory.
Adding another layer of fiction over reality will not make the territory real. A map statement? What is that? The point is that you can draw something that does not exist.

Quote:
The same goes for all version of real and unreal. There are no real things, because a thing doesn't have the property of being real.
More philosophical nonsense. "Real" means "exists". You can imagine or represent something that does not exist. The representation exists, yes, but not the thing it represents. It's, again, a simple concept.

Quote:
So that "the map is not the same as the territory" is a part of the map and not the territory.
Gibberish.

Quote:
You want to be precise about the difference between map and territory.
No, I want to be accurate.

Quote:
That you and I have different understandings of map and territory
Stop trying to equivocate. Not all statements are of equal value or equally valid. You can't wish away your wrongness by saying "hey, it's an opinion, and so is yours."

Quote:
take place as different maps, yet we communicate through the territory; i.e. the Internet as a collection of physical things and our bodies.
More gibberish. The internet is not an analog to the territory, as the internet is a real thing.

Quote:
So that you make a map claim, "the map is not the same as the territory", travels through the territory and are compared with my map.
My map says the map and the territory must be interconnected, otherwise we have dualism, but that can't explain what happens here on this screen including yours.
Someone should've reigned you in during philo class, dude. You're not making any sense, but I'm sure you think you're being super clever.

Quote:
So we agree that in one sense the map and the territory are not the same, but whether we disagree about that the map and the territory are interconnected I don't know.
What are you blabbering about? Just because you can string words together doesn't mean you're making sense. Again, I could explain the difference between map and territory to a four year old and he would just nod and say 'yes, that's obvious'. You, on the other hand, feel the need to write whole paragraphs of gibberish in order to disagree and pretend to be deep and thoughtful. You're not.

Quote:
But I know this: Your belief(map) that the map and the territory are not the same lead you to do something in the territory, namely post on this forum.
No. This is entirely wrong.

Quote:
BTW the mental is not a thing, it is connected to a thing, but it is not a thing. It is the mental.
Of course mental is a thing. Neural signals exist.
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Old 20th November 2018, 01:33 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Good luck with that one, since I don't believe in existence as most people do.
We noticed.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Well, it is a compound word of "no relationship with me", but the trick is that there is also a relationship, so "no relationship with me" is always another relationship. If there is no chair in the room, there is something else, air and so on.
But the chair still doesn't exist.
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Old 20th November 2018, 02:48 PM   #329
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Nonpareil View Post
...
But the chair still doesn't exist.
https://www.ontology.co/existence.htm
Go to LOGIC AND EXISTENCE
Quote:
...and that (2) "Being is obviously not a real predicate; that is, it is not a concept of something which could be added to the concept of a thing."...
Being/existence is not a part of thing, so how can non-being/-existence be a part of a thing.

Being is the idea that when you remove all predicates of a thing, what is left is being/existence. The problem is that it is an idea.

When you wonder into ontology, you might want to check, what you are doing, before you take for granted that things exist or things has existence. You are doing philosophy.
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:10 PM   #330
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Ok on THIS one you guys just got onto different tracks with the map/territory analogy.

Tommy is arguing that IF you have a real territory, THEN your perception of it is your map.

Belz is arguing that if you IMAGINE a map, it doesn’t mean there’s a REAL territory corresponding to it.
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Old 4th December 2018, 12:28 PM   #331
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And perceptions may exist all without any validity to events outside the brain
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Old 4th December 2018, 02:51 PM   #332
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Take the blue pill, people!
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Old 4th December 2018, 03:03 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Ok on THIS one you guys just got onto different tracks with the map/territory analogy.

Tommy is arguing that IF you have a real territory, THEN your perception of it is your map.

Belz is arguing that if you IMAGINE a map, it doesn’t mean there’s a REAL territory corresponding to it.
Both are correct. Which is probably what you were suggesting.
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Old 8th December 2018, 01:12 PM   #334
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Perhaps this….

It seems like the purpose of the map is not intended to validate the existence of the territory.
The usefulness of a map is its ability to communicate symbolic knowledge to another human.
The validation for the existence of the territory seems to lie somewhere else.

To just say “everyone knows what is real” doesn’t address the question at hand.
While we may all agree with it, it still doesn’t explain HOW everyone knows what is real when we just ruled out symbolic knowledge (the map) as a validation of existence.
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Old 8th December 2018, 03:11 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Chunol View Post
Perhaps this….

It seems like the purpose of the map is not intended to validate the existence of the territory.
The usefulness of a map is its ability to communicate symbolic knowledge to another human.
The validation for the existence of the territory seems to lie somewhere else.

To just say “everyone knows what is real” doesn’t address the question at hand.
While we may all agree with it, it still doesn’t explain HOW everyone knows what is real when we just ruled out symbolic knowledge (the map) as a validation of existence.
The map is real.
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Old 8th December 2018, 06:07 PM   #336
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Since there are many kinds of maps, let’s stick with a generic definition of the word.

A map is a symbolic two dimensional representation of the surface of the earth.

The graphic symbol drawn on the paper and the ink and the paper exist in nature.
The meaning of the graphic symbol exists only in the minds of men and women who agree on their meaning.

If the symbols, drawings or markings are meaningless then the map is useless as a means of sharing knowledge.
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Old 9th December 2018, 04:48 AM   #337
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And?
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Old 9th December 2018, 09:58 AM   #338
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“And?” is a graphic symbol, that is supposed to have meaning in order to communicate intersubjectively with another human.

But I am unsure of its intended meaning.

Not sure if it means you agree with this so far, or that you just want me to keep talking until you find something to jump on. :-0

Anyway,

All of these little black squiggly and straight marks that make up this sentence are graphic symbols.

The usefulness of these little black marks happens when we both agree on the rules for using them.

If I didn’t follow these rules I could write this……

inorderforthesesymbolstoconveyinformationwemustbot hagreetotheMethods,AssumptionsandPrinciplesforusin gthem.

When I do follow the rules we get this….

In order for these symbols to convey information we must both agree to the Methods, Assumptions and Principles for using them.

The MAP is conventional, man made, mind dependent and agreed upon.

It is a group activity.

What the MAP cannot map is your (mine, everyone’s) direct, subjective, sensory experience of the territory (nature).

Take your eyes off the screen and look around you.

Can you reduce everything you are seeing, touching, smelling, hearing, tasting to a set of symbols / concepts that would be a “direct representation” of your experience of nature at a time called now and a place called here?

Can you deny to your self that you are having an experience?

Gnothi Seauton
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:57 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Chunol View Post
“And?” is a graphic symbol, that is supposed to have meaning in order to communicate intersubjectively with another human.

But I am unsure of its intended meaning.

Not sure if it means you agree with this so far, or that you just want me to keep talking until you find something to jump on. :-0

Anyway,

All of these little black squiggly and straight marks that make up this sentence are graphic symbols.

The usefulness of these little black marks happens when we both agree on the rules for using them.

If I didn’t follow these rules I could write this……

inorderforthesesymbolstoconveyinformationwemustbot hagreetotheMethods,AssumptionsandPrinciplesforusin gthem.

When I do follow the rules we get this….

In order for these symbols to convey information we must both agree to the Methods, Assumptions and Principles for using them.

The MAP is conventional, man made, mind dependent and agreed upon.

It is a group activity.

What the MAP cannot map is your (mine, everyone’s) direct, subjective, sensory experience of the territory (nature).

Take your eyes off the screen and look around you.

Can you reduce everything you are seeing, touching, smelling, hearing, tasting to a set of symbols / concepts that would be a “direct representation” of your experience of nature at a time called now and a place called here?

Can you deny to your self that you are having an experience?

Gnothi Seauton
Within philosophy it pops up even within 2 non-supernatural models of ontological reductive monism versus the ontological merging of dualism and supervenience in that the mental is not in the strong logical sense reductive to the physical, but is caused the physical and follows(supervenes) the physical.

We then enter qualia, it is then possible to understand qualia without claiming ontological dualism/idealism.

The intersubjective is caused by and supervenes on the physical, but can't be expressed in pure physical terms.
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Old 11th December 2018, 08:58 AM   #340
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Tommy, tú no eres real.
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Old 11th December 2018, 09:04 AM   #341
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Tommy, tú no eres real.
Yes and that is how I can answer; I am not real, yet I communicate with you. Go figure.
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Old 11th December 2018, 09:15 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Yes and that is how I can answer; I am not real, yet I communicate with you. Go figure.
Es tut mir leid. Ich verstehe nicht.
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Old 11th December 2018, 09:27 AM   #343
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Es tut mir leid. Ich verstehe nicht.
Du bist ein Mensch! Yiddish proverb.

Ich lebe in Dänemark. Try something else.
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Old 11th December 2018, 09:58 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Chunol View Post
To just say “everyone knows what is real” doesn’t address the question at hand.
While we may all agree with it, it still doesn’t explain HOW everyone knows what is real when we just ruled out symbolic knowledge (the map) as a validation of existence.
And?

As stated earlier, what matter is how things behave in our shared universe, so we can use that to our advantage. The rest is irrelevant.
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Old 11th December 2018, 10:01 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Chunol View Post
“And?” is a graphic symbol, that is supposed to have meaning in order to communicate intersubjectively with another human.
It's really amazing how easily people dedicated to the discipline of thinking are confused by simple concepts.
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Old 11th December 2018, 10:33 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And?

As stated earlier, what matter is how things behave in our shared universe, so we can use that to our advantage. The rest is irrelevant.
That is your opinion.
Here is mine: What matters to me is how we treat each other as for similarities and differences and how we understand the possibilities and limitations of the shared universe.
The rest is relevant relative to other views and sometimes there is no agreement.
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Old 11th December 2018, 07:27 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Chunol
“And?” is a graphic symbol, that is supposed to have meaning in order to communicate intersubjectively with another human.


It's really amazing how easily people dedicated to the discipline of thinking are confused by simple concepts.
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Belz,


“and” ….

“concept” is a graphic symbol that is supposed to have meaning in order to communicate intersubjectively with another human.

Since I have shared my thoughts on thinking with you, would you be so kind as to share your thoughts with me?

Let’s start with something simple, like the word concept.
Since it is so simple that you could explain it to a 4 year old, could you also explain it to a 71 year old?

Just don’t mistake my nodding off as meaning I am nodding assent.
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Old 12th December 2018, 05:33 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Chunol View Post
“And?” is a graphic symbol, that is supposed to have meaning in order to communicate intersubjectively with another human.

But I am unsure of its intended meaning.

Not sure if it means you agree with this so far, or that you just want me to keep talking until you find something to jump on. :-0

Anyway,

All of these little black squiggly and straight marks that make up this sentence are graphic symbols.

The usefulness of these little black marks happens when we both agree on the rules for using them.

If I didn’t follow these rules I could write this……

inorderforthesesymbolstoconveyinformationwemustbot hagreetotheMethods,AssumptionsandPrinciplesforusin gthem.

When I do follow the rules we get this….

In order for these symbols to convey information we must both agree to the Methods, Assumptions and Principles for using them.

The MAP is conventional, man made, mind dependent and agreed upon.

It is a group activity.

What the MAP cannot map is your (mine, everyone’s) direct, subjective, sensory experience of the territory (nature).

Take your eyes off the screen and look around you.

Can you reduce everything you are seeing, touching, smelling, hearing, tasting to a set of symbols / concepts that would be a “direct representation” of your experience of nature at a time called now and a place called here?

Can you deny to your self that you are having an experience?

Gnothi Seauton
I don't have any "experiences" I have reactions.
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Old 12th December 2018, 07:26 AM   #349
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't have any "experiences" I have reactions.
Yeah, and some of the words you use to describe different reactions have no objective referent. E.g. I feel hungry or I see a beautiful human.
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:11 PM   #350
Chunol
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't have any "experiences" I have reactions.



I would be interested to hear why you think there is a difference between an experience of a sensation and a reaction to a sensation?

If you do not experience nature than how do you know nature?
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:46 PM   #351
LarryS
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 926
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't have any "experiences" I have reactions.
that's got to suck, but at least you don't know it sucks.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:43 AM   #352
Ron_Tomkins
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Du bist ein Mensch! Yiddish proverb.

Ich lebe in Dänemark. Try something else.

Жоқ
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