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Old 12th December 2018, 02:01 AM   #41
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
My point is even if the original Ancient Hebrew text didn't explicitly say that she was a virgin, which is not at all conclusively demonstrated, it implies that she was by referring to her as a young unmarried woman, because it would have been extremely unusual for such a person not to be.
Again, that was certainly not the case. Because what we have there is that the kid in the prophecy is the next king, who basically manufactured that divine endorsement for himself. He made himself be a sign from God. And with quite the glowing endorsement about his character too.

It would have been pretty damn absurd of him to claim in that process that he's NOT his father's son, and not only that, but no longer of David's line either, because that would have created more problems than it solved about his legitimacy to rule. If you're a legitimate king, you don't manufacture a counter-endorsement that says, "oh, btw, he's actually a bastard. And not of the ruling family either."
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

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Old 12th December 2018, 07:08 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Thanks for the clarification. I don't know as much about the Old Testament prophecies as I really should. They were largely sort of glossed over in church.
Funny, I did a year-long bible study course at a Xian college, and they were sort of glossed over there, as well.

Makes you wonder if there was a reason...

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Old 12th December 2018, 07:39 AM   #43
HansMustermann
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Well, because there are NO prophecies about Jesus. In fact, there are no actual prophecies at all.

The way it worked, after the first 5 books is just taking to heart Deuteronomy 18:18-22: If someone tells you X will happen, and it happens, you know it's a real prophet and speaks for God. (Otherwise kill him.)

So what they do ever after is manufacture a PAST prophet when they want to say something about CURRENT events, or give out New Rules for the CURRENT situation. They just happen to "find" some text where a guy from the past (A) amazingly prophecised things that happened in the meantime, and (B) continued with the actual payload for the present day, that, surprise surprise, is exactly what the king wanted you to take to heart.

Like, if nowadays I wanted to come up with a prophecy that says "invade Iran", I wouldn't come out and say I'm the prophet and God gave ME that commandment. Too risky, and not enough credibility. I'd "find" some writings of the great prophet Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov who in the early 1900's amazingly prophecised both world wars, the Russian revolution, and 9/11, and maybe did a few miracles too, to show that he's the real deal. Then at the end, God told him that he wants us to smite Iran after they no longer have a king.

In reality it wouldn't be that amazing, because all the prophecised stuff happened before the prophecy was forged.

But therein lies the rub. All of that stuff had something to say about the current situation, not about some future Messiah. Not the least because nobody was yet envisioning needing a Messiah.
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:44 AM   #44
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Hans:

Exactly the point I was going for, but I'm lazy and don't like to write that much

It's basically a Texas Sharpshooter fallacy: draw a bullseye around your target. Look back to find a text that can be shoehorned onto modern events, and claim prophecy.

ETA: Same with Revelations and the end of the world, just as an aside. That appeared to be about persecutions of the churches, rather than the end of the world.

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Old 12th December 2018, 09:29 AM   #45
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Actually, I wasn't saying it's a Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. I'm saying they flat out manufactured a text, rather than find one that can serve the purpose.

Edit: oh, you mean prophecy of Jesus? Yeah, there they did the schizophrenic thing, namely delusions of reference, and found all sorts of phrase fragments, some even 2 or 3 words long, that could be about Jesus and Christians.
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 12th December 2018 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:38 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, I wasn't saying it's a Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. I'm saying they flat out manufactured a text, rather than find one that can serve the purpose.

Edit: oh, you mean prophecy of Jesus? Yeah, there they did the schizophrenic thing, namely delusions of reference, and found all sorts of phrase fragments, some even 2 or 3 words long, that could be about Jesus and Christians.
Yeah, sorry, I was referring more to the Biblical prophecy for Jesus
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Old 12th December 2018, 04:09 PM   #47
HansMustermann
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TBH, I still wouldn't really call it the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. It's really textbook delusions of reference. Paul for example is literally doing the same Charles Manson did, when he found secret messages to him in Beatles Songs, telling him about an upcoming racial revolution. The difference is just that when you do it about Jesus, you get to be a church father.

And really that's one reason why I consider religion to be a bad influence. It teaches people to act like they're schizophrenic, and accept schizophrenic arguments, and actually revere schizophrenics.

And really, people suffering from schizophrenia have all my compassion, but they need medical treatment, not to be put in charge of how other people live their lives.
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Old 14th December 2018, 02:59 PM   #48
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The minutes from the First Council of Nicaea would have been interesting. So too would the facial expressions of the amanuenses.
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