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Old 5th November 2018, 10:39 AM   #41
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Okay other then making it functionally impossible to talk to you like a human being, what purpose does your "philosophy" serve? How does it make the world a better place?

If you're rejecting reality and... knowing stuff you should have a good reason.
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:45 AM   #42
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay other then making it functionally impossible to talk to you like a human being, what purpose does your "philosophy" serve? How does it make the world a better place?

If you're rejecting reality and... knowing stuff you should have a good reason.
No human can with knowledge judge another human. To judge another human is not knowledge, it is a belief(-system). A lot of humans including some atheists believe that it is knowledge.
You can't show with knowledge that libertarianism is better than other systems. Neither can I show that for any system. I just admit that!
I know this. You don't! You believe.

You figure out the rest.
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
No!!!
It is real, that humans use different understandings of reality to judge each other and that is not limited to religious people.
That is completely irrelevant. That someone can, and probably does, believe the moon to be made of green cheese is irrelevant. It ISN'T made of cheese.

When asked to spare me philosophical nonsense, why do you double down?
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:55 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
No human can with knowledge judge another human. To judge another human is not knowledge, it is a belief(-system). A lot of humans including some atheists believe that it is knowledge.
Judgment is an action. Knowledge is a thing. I suspect very few people confuse the two, but I can see that it's hard for you.
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:57 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's pretty much common sense to me.
Agreed. Many here take a hard scientific realism stance. They become defensive and apologetic whenever somebody questions the absolute authority of science.
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:01 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Judgment is an action. Knowledge is a thing. I suspect very few people confuse the two, but I can see that it's hard for you.
Knowledge is not a thing!!! You can't see it, touch it, hold it, smell it or all that. Knowledge is a process/action in your brain. Judging is a process/action in your brain.
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:11 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That is completely irrelevant. That someone can, and probably does, believe the moon to be made of green cheese is irrelevant. It ISN'T made of cheese.

When asked to spare me philosophical nonsense, why do you double down?
You just used a different understanding of reality.

Some people believe that different understandings of reality than their own is not a fact. It is a fact that there are different understandings of reality.
It is relevant that there different understandings of reality if you believe so and it is irrelevant that there different understandings of reality if you believe so.
That is different understandings of reality.

"That is completely irrelevant."
Compare to this.
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not."

You have just given evidence for cognitive relativism, in what is relevant/irrelevant is relative.
Again:
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not."
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:14 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Agreed. Many here take a hard scientific realism stance. They become defensive and apologetic whenever somebody questions the absolute authority of science.
No you're doing it wrong. You have to call it "Scientism" and say it's a religion.
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:30 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Knowledge is not a thing!!! You can't see it, touch it, hold it, smell it or all that. Knowledge is a process/action in your brain. Judging is a process/action in your brain.
No. Information is stored in the brain. That is a thing, once stored, not an action.

Seriously, children understand this.

Quote:
Some people believe that different understandings of reality than their own is not a fact.
Don't you get it? Belief is irrelevant to reality. It might be relevant to the person having the belief, but it makes no difference to how things work.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:02 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No. Information is stored in the brain. That is a thing, once stored, not an action.

Seriously, children understand this.



Don't you get it? Belief is irrelevant to reality. It might be relevant to the person having the belief, but it makes no difference to how things work.
Okay, if a person can have a belief, is that a part of how things work? If a belief is stored like information in the brain, is it then a thing and a part of how things work?

To me a belief is similar to information. Both are stored in brains, thus things and can be used to do action.
I am going to burn a witch.
I am going to build a bridge.

Both seem to be a part of how things work???
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:15 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I've heard that some Americans use an expression which we don't have over here. It's something like "tripling down".................or was it "doubling down". Dunno. Anyone else heard it? If so, can someone explain it to me, and suggest how it might be suitable in this context?
I am glad you asked.

Here it is.
Cognitive relativism is a fact just like gravity is a fact.
Both are necessary, but not sufficient in explaining reality.

Here is the test for cognitive relativism:
Human one: Cognitive relativism is not a fact.
Human two: I agree.
Human three: I disagree.
You can't explain reality without cognitive relativism, because when you do so, you confirm cognitive relativism. You disagree with another human and that requires cognitive relativism.
You can't explain how humans can have different understanding of reality without using cognitive relativism.

But you can do the following: Claim that cognitive relativism is pointless. Not that is not a fact, it is a belief, but that belief can be explained using cognitive relativism.
That you say that the fact that I have a different understand of reality is pointless, is a belief for the part of being pointless.
Now you can't explain how I in fact can understand reality differently, because you don't explain it. You explain it away as being pointless. You can believe that all you like, but that confirms cognitive relativism.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:16 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Okay, if a person can have a belief, is that a part of how things work? If a belief is stored like information in the brain, is it then a thing and a part of how things work?

To me a belief is similar to information. Both are stored in brains, thus things and can be used to do action.
I am going to burn a witch.
I am going to build a bridge.

Both seem to be a part of how things work???
My conviction that you are an Andromeda spam bot seeking weaknesses in the debating chops of us "Milky Waywards" does not make it so. Conceptual possibility absent motivating observation is an emperor without clothes, and relates to neither plausibility nor probability nor certainty. Still, I suspect we may give in and cede to our new galactic overlords if this is what must pass for debate. Heck, ancient Greeks, as we speak, are resurrecting just to rend their robes and pee in the agora.

Where's my sword, so I can fall on it?
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Okay, if a person can have a belief, is that a part of how things work? If a belief is stored like information in the brain, is it then a thing and a part of how things work?
No.

The belief operates exactly under the objective laws of physics. You can imagine a unicorn flying through space at the speed of light, but although the process of imagining this works within the bounds of physics, it doesn't make unicorns real.

I know this is real hard stuff, but do try.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:22 PM   #54
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Okay Tommy I will take this down to literal "Toddler Object Permanence" level.

In front of two people is a blue ball. One person looks at the ball and sees a blue ball. The other person looks at the ball and sees a red ball.

What color is the ball?
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:24 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
My conviction that you are an Andromeda spam bot seeking weaknesses in the debating chops of us "Milky Waywards" does not make it so. Conceptual possibility absent motivating observation is an emperor without clothes, and relates to neither plausibility nor probability nor certainty. Still, I suspect we may give in and cede to our new galactic overlords if this is what must pass for debate. Heck, ancient Greeks, as we speak, are resurrecting just to rend their robes and pee in the agora.

Where's my sword, so I can fall on it?
No motivation can be observed as it can't be seen, touched, held, manhandled or anything outside a brain. Motivation is a case of emotional/moral/cognitive relativism. In some cases what motivates you is not the same as me, hence emotional/moral/cognitive relativism.
To me motivating observation is a case of contradicting terms.
We can infer motivation in other humans, but we can't observe it directly. It requires a theory of mind. And you don't observe your motivation, you experience it otherwise.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:27 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay Tommy I will take this down to literal "Toddler Object Permanence" level.

In front of two people is a blue ball. One person looks at the ball and sees a blue ball. The other person looks at the ball and sees a red ball.

What color is the ball?
Blue to one and red to another. Its wavelength is something else.
It is a fact that there are different kinds of colorblindness and indeed some people only see the world is shades of grey. To them it would be a shade of grey.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:29 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Blue to one and red to another. Its wavelength is something else.
It is a fact that there are different kinds of colorblindness and indeed some people only see the world is shades of grey. To them it would be a shade of grey.
And there we have it. Full, admitted reality denial.

You are functionally impossible to converse with. You're a chatbot at this point.

Even if you had a clear idea, no matter how wrong it might be, you are incapable of communicating the ideas clearly.

If you were capable of communicating your ideas clearly, they would still be functionally insane.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:30 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I was hoping for answers from people who didn't think verbal diarrhea was a positive.
Congratulation. You have just confirmed cognitive relativism is real.

The short answer is this:
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Agreed. Many here take a hard scientific realism stance. They become defensive and apologetic whenever somebody questions the absolute authority of science.
Cognitive relativism shows that a hard scientific realism stance is a belief.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:32 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And there we have it. Full, admitted reality denial.

You are functionally impossible to converse with. You're a chatbot at this point.
So colorblindness is not a fact?
Got any link to a peer-reviewed article about that?
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:35 PM   #60
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We cannot justifiably judge a bank robber because we cannot prove that the bank he robbed or the money he stole exists.

But the robber can't prove the prison we put him in exists either, so it's all good.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:36 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
So colorblindness is not a fact?
Got any link to a peer-reviewed article about that?
No. I'm not going down your rabbit hole of rude, dishonest, hair splitting word salad.

You are wrong. Your world view is wrong. You are so wrong the only way you can mentally survive is to pretend "right and wrong" don't exist. You are not only living in a total fantasy land you are proud of it and think it makes you clever.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:41 PM   #62
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There is an orange-striped tiger among some green reeds. One hominid looks at the tiger and sees an orange-striped tiger. The other hominid looks at the tiger and sees only green reeds, because she's color blind.

Which hominid gets to pass on her genes?
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:46 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
There is an orange-striped tiger among some green reeds. One hominid looks at the tiger and sees an orange-striped tiger. The other hominid looks at the tiger and sees only green reeds, because she's color blind.

Which hominid gets to pass on her genes?
Hominids cooperate and work together, so the alarm is given and both survive, which is how colour-blindness may persist.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:48 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Hominids cooperate and work together, so the alarm is given and both survive, which is how colour-blindness may persist.
None of which means that literal wavelength of the electromagnet spectrum that we call "color" changes for the colorblind person.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:50 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
The words believe and know are not the same to me.
I don't believe in the Matrix and so on, is not the same as I don't know about the Matrix and so on as what reality really is.
If that was the case, then you have lost, because then this is true:
Someone: I believe in God, therefore I know of God.
The words belief and know are not the same, I agree.

'I don't believe in the matrix' is rejecting a claim, whereas 'I know there's no such thing as the matrix' is making a claim.
belief and know, that whole soft v hard atheism thingy.

Re the highlighted: you are not comparing belief and know, you seem to have switched out 'know' for 'don't know'.

Someone: I believe in God, therefore I don't know God to be true...its a belief.

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Old 5th November 2018, 12:54 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
None of which means that literal wavelength of the electromagnet spectrum that we call "color" changes for the colorblind person.
That's nothing to do with the post I replied to.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:56 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Hominids cooperate and work together, so the alarm is given and both survive, which is how colour-blindness may persist.

That depends on whether the color-blind hominid believes the alarm.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:13 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
We cannot justifiably judge a bank robber because we cannot prove that the bank he robbed or the money he stole exists.

But the robber can't prove the prison we put him in exists either, so it's all good.
There is a difference between hard facts and social convention/culture.
Gravity is the same to all humans, but e.g. what reality actually is, is not the same.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:14 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
That's nothing to do with the post I replied to.
No but it's the question actually be asked in the thread and we've got someone who's going to take anything said out of context and drown us in word salad over it and I don't want to hear it.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:18 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No but it's the question actually be asked in the thread and we've got someone who's going to take anything said out of context and drown us in word salad over it and I don't want to hear it.
Then continue to engage and you won't, because that is how reality works.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:28 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You may be content lying and misrepresenting people's arguments egregiously, but I find it contemptible. I have no interest in your little hobby horse, and I don't accept the definition ServiceSoon gave against which you erroneously judged my post.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Let us do:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/...atisscience_12

All of them!
Come on. You can do it. Cognitive relativism is in there in that link.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:30 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
I think it is about something more that just "quantum mechanics is a counterintuitive view of the universe".
It isn't. I've seen this same article written a dozen times. "Quantum mechanics blah blah nothing is real." Hence, yawn. There are only so many ways popular science writers can equivocate on reality from a QM perspective before it becomes overtly tiresome.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:37 PM   #73
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Quantum theory and the Matrix have lead to more goddamn anti-intellectual Navel Gazing Woo than anything in history.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:42 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Quantum theory and the Matrix have lead to more goddamn anti-intellectual Navel Gazing Woo than anything in history.
The article was by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow on October 1, 2010
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
The article was by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow on October 1, 2010
And this makes them immune to pandering to the masses ... how?
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:51 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
The article was by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow on October 1, 2010
Tommy nobody gives a crap who wrote or when they wrote the thing you obviously don't understand.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:58 PM   #77
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It isn't. I've seen this same article written a dozen times. "Quantum mechanics blah blah nothing is real." Hence, yawn. There are only so many ways popular science writers can equivocate on reality from a QM perspective before it becomes overtly tiresome.
By Stephen Hawking, Leonard Mlodinow on October 1, 2010
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...of-everything/
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:59 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
And this makes them immune to pandering to the masses ... how?
Evidence that they are doing that?
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:03 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Positively apoplectic. It's sad that a potentially interesting thread is shut down almost immediately by multiple insults, snipes and derails. Question the holy scripture of realism and it's like you insulted their mother.
Well, thank Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:03 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Evidence that they are doing that?
You don't need the answer to this question in order to answer mine to you. Please answer it.
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