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Old 17th November 2018, 10:02 AM   #281
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Okay, here we go.
That's just more gibberish. Try to focus.

I showed you, by means of hijacking someone else's mathematical example, how it's possible to have a system in whose full-flowered formality can be expressed numerous "algebras" based on different axioms, yet also in which we agree that only one has common useful meaning. You stepped effortlessly into the common mathematical algebra, just as there are philosophical frameworks in which we commonly live. We don't deny the existence or possibility of other sets of axioms. We merely realize the different circumstances in which each usefully applies. This is what Hawking was trying to tell you in the article you began this thread with. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. You can make an algebra in which 2+2=5, but maybe you shouldn't. You can make a philosophy in which nothing is known and nothing is real, but maybe you shouldn't try to apply such a philosophy everywhere. Quantum mechanics might be such an "algebra" in theoretical physics. It has a small, limited application in ways normal people rarely need or care about, and it would be prohibitively tedious to use it to try to describe the physical world we actually see.

When we were last on track, you seemed to divorce the philosophy of knowledge from assumption, which is a big no-no. So I responded that philosophy is "all about" the assumptions -- properly termed axioms. By that I mean that axioms are foundational in the philosophy of knowledge, and that a particular set of axioms is foundational to any specific theory of knowledge. Each of the flavors of positivism, for example, embodies a specific set of axioms. So does relativism. You made the mistake of assuming I meant philosophy was nothing but axioms, and wrote a lengthy sidetrack under that wrong assumption. I'm trying to get you back onto track, but you first need to stop pontificating and start listening. If I tell you, "No, that's not what I meant," it shouldn't result in you fearing you'll have to resort to insults. The proper answer is, "Oh, I'm sorry. What did you mean?"

My belief here is that you've simply become so enamored with one notion of relativism that you're unable to think outside its boundaries, and that you experience considerable frustration when people object to your insistence that we all must crowd under your philosophical umbrella.
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Old 17th November 2018, 11:03 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That's just more gibberish. Try to focus.

I showed you, by means of hijacking someone else's mathematical example, how it's possible to have a system in whose full-flowered formality can be expressed numerous "algebras" based on different axioms, yet also in which we agree that only one has common useful meaning. You stepped effortlessly into the common mathematical algebra, just as there are philosophical frameworks in which we commonly live. We don't deny the existence or possibility of other sets of axioms. We merely realize the different circumstances in which each usefully applies. This is what Hawking was trying to tell you in the article you began this thread with. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. You can make an algebra in which 2+2=5, but maybe you shouldn't. You can make a philosophy in which nothing is known and nothing is real, but maybe you shouldn't try to apply such a philosophy everywhere. Quantum mechanics might be such an "algebra" in theoretical physics. It has a small, limited application in ways normal people rarely need or care about, and it would be prohibitively tedious to use it to try to describe the physical world we actually see.

When we were last on track, you seemed to divorce the philosophy of knowledge from assumption, which is a big no-no. So I responded that philosophy is "all about" the assumptions -- properly termed axioms. By that I mean that axioms are foundational in the philosophy of knowledge, and that a particular set of axioms is foundational to any specific theory of knowledge. Each of the flavors of positivism, for example, embodies a specific set of axioms. So does relativism. You made the mistake of assuming I meant philosophy was nothing but axioms, and wrote a lengthy sidetrack under that wrong assumption. I'm trying to get you back onto track, but you first need to stop pontificating and start listening. If I tell you, "No, that's not what I meant," it shouldn't result in you fearing you'll have to resort to insults. The proper answer is, "Oh, I'm sorry. What did you mean?"

My belief here is that you've simply become so enamored with one notion of relativism that you're unable to think outside its boundaries, and that you experience considerable frustration when people object to your insistence that we all must crowd under your philosophical umbrella.
I am dense. Now I get it. More later if RL allows it.
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Old 17th November 2018, 11:06 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
I am dense. Now I get it. More later if RL allows it.
Glad to hear. No rush; there's all the time in the world to have this discussion.
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Old 18th November 2018, 10:03 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Glad to hear. No rush; there's all the time in the world to have this discussion.
I hope to have the time tomorrow that this debates deserve.
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Old 18th November 2018, 10:21 AM   #285
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you just won the debate - from a specific point of view!!
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:44 AM   #286
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That's just more gibberish. Try to focus.

I showed you, by means of hijacking someone else's mathematical example, how it's possible to have a system in whose full-flowered formality can be expressed numerous "algebras" based on different axioms, yet also in which we agree that only one has common useful meaning. You stepped effortlessly into the common mathematical algebra, just as there are philosophical frameworks in which we commonly live. We don't deny the existence or possibility of other sets of axioms. We merely realize the different circumstances in which each usefully applies. This is what Hawking was trying to tell you in the article you began this thread with. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. You can make an algebra in which 2+2=5, but maybe you shouldn't. You can make a philosophy in which nothing is known and nothing is real, but maybe you shouldn't try to apply such a philosophy everywhere. Quantum mechanics might be such an "algebra" in theoretical physics. It has a small, limited application in ways normal people rarely need or care about, and it would be prohibitively tedious to use it to try to describe the physical world we actually see.

When we were last on track, you seemed to divorce the philosophy of knowledge from assumption, which is a big no-no. So I responded that philosophy is "all about" the assumptions -- properly termed axioms. By that I mean that axioms are foundational in the philosophy of knowledge, and that a particular set of axioms is foundational to any specific theory of knowledge. Each of the flavors of positivism, for example, embodies a specific set of axioms. So does relativism. You made the mistake of assuming I meant philosophy was nothing but axioms, and wrote a lengthy sidetrack under that wrong assumption. I'm trying to get you back onto track, but you first need to stop pontificating and start listening. If I tell you, "No, that's not what I meant," it shouldn't result in you fearing you'll have to resort to insults. The proper answer is, "Oh, I'm sorry. What did you mean?"

My belief here is that you've simply become so enamored with one notion of relativism that you're unable to think outside its boundaries, and that you experience considerable frustration when people object to your insistence that we all must crowd under your philosophical umbrella.
Do you want to debate personal morality, general morality, ethics and meta-ethics as they relate to a common we and how that relates to different axioms and which you shouldn't use?

If not, I thank you for your time. I concede as such, because whether what knowledge and real is, we have already covered and I get your POW.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:53 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Someone: Reality is objective.
Me: No!

It takes places, can be observed and thus that "no" is real, otherwise you couldn't object against it.
No, that doesn't mean, that reality is subjective.
Gibberish, as usual. You simply don't understand, or pretend to not understand, the simplest of concepts. Pre-civilisation humans understood this sort of thing.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:54 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
And then that is real in some sense, otherwise you couldn't do that.
I absolutely can. I can imagine tons of unreal things. You're still confusing the map with the territory.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:58 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
What 2+2=? is, depends on the underlying assumptions, right?
Only if you take nonsensical assumptions.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
I am dense. Now I get it. More later if RL allows it.
Oh, there's some real stuff after all?
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:01 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I absolutely can. I can imagine tons of unreal things. You're still confusing the map with the territory.
And the map and the territory are both a part of reality or not? Where do you think the map takes place? In non-reality? What is that?
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:03 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
And the map and the territory are both a part of reality or not? Where do you think the map takes place? In non-reality? What is that?
They are both part of reality but THEY AREN'T THE SAME BLOODY THING AN INFANT CAN UNDERSTAND THIS!

Stop it with the "But are they both part of reality" caterwauling.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:03 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
And the map and the territory are both a part of reality or not?
The territory shown on the map does not exist outside of the map. There's no real mountain called Mount Doom in Mordor. You can still think about it and put it on a map or a t-shirt if you want. You are STILL confusing the map with the territory.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:04 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I absolutely can. I can imagine tons of unreal things. You're still confusing the map with the territory.
Take 2.

You don't get how the word "real" works.
If you can imagine tons of unreal things, then that is real. And the unreal things must be something otherwise you couldn't imagine them and then they are real in some sense.
Real depends on contexts with reality.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:06 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You don't get how the word "real" works.
If you can imagine tons of unreal things, then that is real. And the unreal things must be something otherwise you couldn't imagine them and then they are real in some sense.
Real depends on contexts with reality.
No. That is wrong. It is incorrect. You are wrong.

What point are you even trying to make with this endless stream of gibberish?
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:13 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The territory shown on the map does not exist outside of the map. There's no real mountain called Mount Doom in Mordor. You can still think about it and put it on a map or a t-shirt if you want. You are STILL confusing the map with the territory.
Here is how it works. I am confused. That is real. It made me post words on something physical, a PC, and it gets to you and you go on about how it is somehow the map.
How can the idea of a map, "the territory shown on the map does not exist outside of the map", travel from your mind through the physical internet back into my mind and then back and forth and so on.
How do you explain how the map can transit into the territory of the physical internet and back to the map?

In other words, if the map and the territory are not the interconnected, then how can we use the territory to speak of the map?
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:13 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You don't get how the word "real" works.
Yes, yes I do. You're the one who's trying to use a novel, quirky definition:

Quote:
If you can imagine tons of unreal things, then that is real.
By that stupid definition, everything is real and the world "unreal" has no meaning. Fortunately the rest of us can function with those words just fine.

Quote:
And the unreal things must be something otherwise you couldn't imagine them and then they are real in some sense.
See, you're wrong even here. In some hypothetical universe there may exist things that I can't imagine. They are real but unimaginable.

Here's the thing: the reality of some concept or thing has no relationship with whether you can imagine it.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:14 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Here is how it works. I am confused. That is real. It let to me posting words on something physical, a PC, and it gets to you and you go on about how it is somehow the territory.
How can the idea of a map, "the territory shown on the map does not exist outside of the map", travel from your mind through the physical internet back into my mind and then back and forth and so on.
How do you explain how the map can transit into the territory of the physical internet and back to the map?

In other words, if the map and the territory are not the interconnected, then how can we use the territory to speak of the map?
That's the first thing you've said that I believe. Everything else is your normal gibberish.

Nothing you are saying is even trying to make sense and you haven't made any effort to be clearer.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:15 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Here is how it works.
Have you not had a realisation at this point that since nobody on earth agrees with your interpretation of reality, that perhaps you are wrong?

Quote:
I am confused. That is real. It let to me posting words on something physical, a PC, and it gets to you and you go on about how it is somehow the territory.
How can the idea of a map, "the territory shown on the map does not exist outside of the map", travel from your mind through the physical internet back into my mind and then back and forth and so on.
How do you explain how the map can transit into the territory of the physical internet and back to the map?

In other words, if the map and the territory are not the interconnected, then how can we use the territory to speak of the map?
So you DO confuse the map and the territory, despite your earlier objections. If I draw a plane on a piece of paper, can I use it to get to Japan?
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:18 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So you DO confuse the map and the territory, despite your earlier objections. If I draw a plane on a piece of paper, can I use it to get to Japan?
*Takes hit off of bong* But dude you can like... totally use the map to go to Japan... IN YOUR MIND... and that's like... a kind of real... *eats Cheetos, passes out*
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:20 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Takes hit off of bong* But dude you can like... totally use the map to go to Japan... IN YOUR MIND... and that's like... a kind of real... *eats Cheetos, passes out*
I fully expect Tommy to respond something along those lines, without the bong (presumably).

But, Tommy, the thing is, in your mind, IS WHAT WE CALL UNREAL.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:23 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Have you not had a realisation at this point that since nobody on earth agrees with your interpretation of reality, that perhaps you are wrong?



So you DO confuse the map and the territory, despite your earlier objections. If I draw a plane on a piece of paper, can I use it to get to Japan?
But it is on something physical???

I don't get how the map and the territory are not both part of reality?

You talk of something in your mind, that maps and the territory are not the same. That moves into the territory of physics when you write on your PC and somehow magically turns into that maps and the territory are not the same in my mind. How is that possible?
If reality is everything, then both the map and the territory are parts of everything, right?!!
What is the physical representation of the map on this PC, if not a part of the territory?
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:25 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
But it is on something physical???
There is literally no way you can really be this dense.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:26 PM   #303
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Take 2:
How come you can use a map to navigate on the territory?

If if the map is not real, it lets you do things in the territory? How is that possible?
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:28 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There is literally no way you can really be this dense.
Yes, there is.
Witches aren't real, yet the belief in witches can cause people to be killed. "The map" causes change in "the territory".
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:47 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
But it is on something physical???
The ink is physical. It still can't fly to Japan.

Quote:
I don't get how the map and the territory are not both part of reality?
Because a river is made of water running through rock or soil. A line of ink or graphite on a piece of paper is not, I submit, a river.

Quote:
If reality is everything, then both the map and the territory are parts of everything, right?!!
No. The territory in this case does not exist. It is not part of "everything".
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:48 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Yes, there is.
Witches aren't real, yet the belief in witches can cause people to be killed. "The map" causes change in "the territory".
But it is not THE territory.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:50 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Yes, there is.
Witches aren't real, yet the belief in witches can cause people to be killed. "The map" causes change in "the territory".
*Sighs* Why do I bother.

You do understand that if I burn my neighbor at the stake because I think she's a witch and I burn my neighbor at the stake because I think she's a witch and she's an actual witch* that those are two different scenarios, right?

No of course you bloody don't. I await your gibberish.

*Witch as in the historical archtype as an actual user of magic, not any modern religious use of the term
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:51 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* Why do I bother.

You do understand that if I burn my neighbor at the stake because I think she's a witch and I burn my neighbor at the stake because I think she's a witch and she's an actual witch* that those are two different scenarios, right?

No of course you bloody don't. I await your gibberish.

*Witch as in the historical archtype as an actual user of magic, not any modern religious use of the term
You know your standard edgelord who thought he was really clever back in college philo class? Some of them don't grow up.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:52 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You know your standard edgelord who thought he was really clever back in college philo class? Some of them don't grow up.
I just figured people figured out the difference between real and unreal right about the time "Got your nose" stopped working on them.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:55 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I just figured people figured out the difference between real and unreal right about the time "Got your nose" stopped working on them.
As you said, object permanence seems to still elude some people.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:58 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But it is not THE territory.
Again. Witches aren't real, just like the map. Beliefs in withes, which requires the idea of witches(map), have caused people to be killed. That people were killed is the territory, that is real. They weren't killed as an idea, they were actually killed.

As for fictional books, they can cause people to act in real life. I know that psychoses aren't real(map), yet they cause people to be killed.
That is what you need to explain. If all of the maps and the territory are not the same, how come maps can be used to effect processes in the territory?

If scientists makes models of computing, how can that lead to computing in computers?
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:59 PM   #312
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The Cause is not the thing either Tommy. If a false belief makes someone do something that doesn't make the false belief a "certain kind of real."
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:02 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Cause is not the thing either Tommy. If a false belief makes someone do something that doesn't make the false belief a "certain kind of real."
How can the unreal cause the real?
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:03 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
How can the unreal cause the real?
At this point you're actively trying to not understand things.
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:05 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Again. Witches aren't real, just like the map.


Congratulations. I couldn't possibly have conceived of a more obvious way to show us that you're confusing the map with the territory.

No, witches don't exist. Maps do.

Quote:
Beliefs in withes, which requires the idea of witches(map), have caused people to be killed. That people were killed is the territory, that is real. They weren't killed as an idea, they were actually killed.


Wow, that's... Is English your first language? That might explain things a bit.

Try this: Beliefs in witches, which requires the idea of witches (territory), have caused people to be killed. That people were killed is the map, that is real. They weren't killed as an idea, they were actually killed.

There. I made two important corrections.

Quote:
As for fictional books, they can cause people to act in real life.
Irrelevant. That people can act on real ideas that represent unreal things does not make these unreal things real.
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:10 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At this point you're actively trying to not understand things.
I don't get it and you haven't explained it.
A hallucination is not real, yet it can cause a human to kill another human?
How do you explain that?

There are people, who are deemed criminally insane, so it seems to be fact, yet it is somehow unreal? How? What is it that goes on, when something unreal, a hallucination, results in something real, a human killed?
Explain that, explain it!!!
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:12 PM   #317
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Because you're using the weasel word "real" across half a dozen different context.
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:15 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...
Irrelevant. That people can act on real ideas that represent unreal things does not make these unreal things real.
How can you represent the unreal in a real brain?
Now with the word represent.
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:17 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
How can you represent the unreal in a real brain?
Quite easily, in fact, given that the brain can simulate sensory inputs. It's a map, not a territory, mind you. The territory doesn't exist. The map does.

Ask a random four year old, if you're still confused.
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:17 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because you're using the weasel word "real" across half a dozen different context.
Quote:
Austin highlights the complexities proper to the uses of ‘real’ by observing that it is (i) a substantive-hungry word that often plays the role of (ii) adjuster-word, a word by means of which “other words are adjusted to meet the innumerable and unforeseeable demands of world upon language” (Austin 1962a, 73). Like ‘good,’ it is (iii) a dimension-word, that is, “the most general and comprehensive term in a whole group of terms of the same kind, terms that fulfil the same function” (Austin 1962a, 71): that is, ‘true,’ ‘proper,’ ‘genuine,’ ‘live,’ ‘natural,’ ‘authentic,’ as opposed to terms such as ‘false,’ ‘artificial,’ ‘fake,’ ‘bogus,’ ‘synthetic,’ ‘toy,’ but also to nouns like ‘dream,’ ‘illusion,’ ‘mirage,’ ‘hallucination.’ ‘Real,’ is also (iv) a word whose negative use “wears the trousers” (a trouser-word) (Austin 1962a, 70).

In order to determine the meaning of ‘real’ we have to consider, case by case, the ways and contexts in which it is used. Only by doing so, according to Austin, can we avoid introducing false dichotomies...
https://www.iep.utm.edu/austin/


You present a false dichotomy, the unreal leads to real.
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