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Old 18th November 2017, 08:17 PM   #3281
SOdhner
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sodhner,
- I'm not looking at whether or not a soul exists under materialism. I'm claiming that a self exists under materialism, and I'm arguing that materialism is wrong about the self's mortality.
You say "self" but you mean soul.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The next hurdle. If we were able to reproduce a perfect copy of your brain, we wouldn't reproduce YOU. YOU does not come out of the cells of your brain.
I've said it a few times, I'll say it again. You are thinking of, essentially, sentimental value. It's an understandable thing, but it's not an actual difference in a way that matters to this equation.
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Old 20th November 2017, 06:33 AM   #3282
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I've said it a few times, I'll say it again. You are thinking of, essentially, sentimental value. It's an understandable thing, but it's not an actual difference in a way that matters to this equation.
Not only that, but he agreed that the self is a process, which means he agrees that YOU _does_ come out of the cells of your brain.
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Old 20th November 2017, 07:11 AM   #3283
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Not only that, but he agreed that the self is a process, which means he agrees that YOU _does_ come out of the cells of your brain.
Yeah, he's wrong either way. Either we're talking about an actual objective thing in which case it's a process that comes from your brain and so he's wrong, or we're talking about the subjective thing that is based on the value we assign to it (such as sentimental value) and so he's wrong.

Secret option C, which is where he actually is, is if we're talking about a non-physical but objectively real thing which would be by definition a soul - and in that case he's still wrong because he's supposed to be talking about the materialistic view.

So he's wrong, he's wrong, or he's wrong. I cannot think of a way for him to be correct in this case.
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Old 20th November 2017, 03:23 PM   #3284
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
So he's wrong, he's wrong, or he's wrong.
I'll take D. All of the above.
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Old Yesterday, 11:41 AM   #3285
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Last edited by Jabba; Yesterday at 11:42 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #3286
John Jones
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
deleted
Why bother?

As far as I can recall, you've rarely bothered to delete or redact anything in the many thousands of times you've made the same monotonous claims. In those exceedingly rare occasions that you have done so, you later re-embrace those same foolish arguments as if nothing had happened.

I'd like to see this statement you willingly deleted. It must have been a real whopper!
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Old Yesterday, 11:54 AM   #3287
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
deleted
Restraint. I like it.

Do that more often.
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Old Yesterday, 12:04 PM   #3288
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Restraint. I like it.

Do that more often.
Your reply was better.
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Old Yesterday, 12:08 PM   #3289
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I cannot think of a way for him to be correct in this case.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
deleted
Touche.
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Old Yesterday, 12:27 PM   #3290
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Why do you think there's any kind of pool? ...
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Again, something difficult to express effectively. To me, at least, "pool" at least implies a limitation, so an ''unlimited" pool really means no pool. And, in that case the whatever comes out of nowhere.
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
It comes out of the cells your brain is made of. Those are made out of matter which mostly comes from the food you eat (and food your mother ate).
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The next hurdle. If we were able to reproduce a perfect copy of your brain, we wouldn't reproduce YOU. YOU does not come out of the cells of your brain.

Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
We already covered this hurdle. You agreed a perfect copy of my brain would produce a perfect copy of my self. Reproducing my brain would reproduce my self.
Dave,
- So, one of our problems is getting our words sorted out. When above, you said,"You agreed" you referenced the following (I did the hi-lighting):

Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
I already said it wouldn't be me. It would be an exact copy if me. It would be exactly like me in every respect. Just like the second load of bread would be exactly like the first loaf of bread. It would be identical to me.

Where we diverge is that you are using a different definition for the word "identical" when it's applied to selves than when applied to everything else. You seem to be implying that if two selves were identical then they would really be the same self in two locations.
- IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you -- just what I said (hi-lighted) that you didn't seem to agree with above.
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Old Yesterday, 12:29 PM   #3291
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Jabba, this isn't any more complicated than the two loaves of bread.

I come out of the cells of my brain.

If you made an exact copy of my brain, an exact copy of me would come out of it.

I do agree that an exact copy of me wouldn't be me (as would anyone who understands the meaning of the word "copy"). I don't agree that this means the brain doesn't produce the self. On the contrary, it's exactly what we would expect if the brain produced the self.
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Old Yesterday, 12:33 PM   #3292
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you -- just what I said (hi-lighted) that you didn't seem to agree with above.
That's because I think Dave seens through your attempt at equivocation.
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Old Yesterday, 01:10 PM   #3293
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
So, one of our problems is getting our words sorted out.
No, the words are sorted out. The problem is getting you to stop doing such violence to them by trying to make them say what you want them to mean rather than what they mean.

Quote:
IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you
And he has explained several times that the language you're choosing equivocates between cardinality and identity, and he clarifies his intended meaning every time. This is why we tell you to stop using deliberately vague words like "Woluld not be you" or "Would not bring ME back to life." You're quite obviously avoiding the important failure of your argument by insisting on doughy language.
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Old Yesterday, 01:36 PM   #3294
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, the words are sorted out. The problem is getting you to stop doing such violence to them by trying to make them say what you want them to mean rather than what they mean.



And he has explained several times that the language you're choosing equivocates between cardinality and identity, and he clarifies his intended meaning every time. This is why we tell you to stop using deliberately vague words like "Woluld not be you" or "Would not bring ME back to life." You're quite obviously avoiding the important failure of your argument by insisting on doughy language.
Don't forget "looking out of 2 sets of eyes"!
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Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM   #3295
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post


Dave,
- So, one of our problems is getting our words sorted out. When above, you said,"You agreed" you referenced the following (I did the hi-lighting):

- IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you -- just what I said (hi-lighted) that you didn't seem to agree with above.
Jabba, do you understand that "1+4=7" is just as wrong as "1 and 4 are 7"?
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Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM   #3296
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, one of our problems is getting our words sorted out.
Jabba,

Our only problem, the only problem, your only problem is your total, complete, and at this point baffling inability to move your "Patented Effective Debate Style" beyond "Just repeat your stance over and over and dishonestly pretend people are agreeing with you when they aren't."
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Old Yesterday, 02:02 PM   #3297
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Jabba: 1 + 2 = 7.
Board: No it doesn't.
Jabba: 2 + 1 = 7.
Board: That's the same thing.
Jabba: Okay would you agree that if you add the values of 2 and 1 together you get seven?
Board: Still the same thing.
Jabba: Okay obviously our problem is the wording. Would you agree that 2 and 1 combined would make 7?
Board: No.
Jabba: I see you agree with me.
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Old Today, 06:30 AM   #3298
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you -.
Are you still struggling with the meaning of 'copy'?
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Old Today, 07:33 AM   #3299
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I love how not a month ago I was roundly taken for task for suggesting that people are being intentionally dense in discussion and here we are trying to explain that "A copy means the thing is the same" and "1 and 2 aren't the same numbers" to a grown man.
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Old Today, 09:12 AM   #3300
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I love how not a month ago I was roundly taken for task for suggesting that people are being intentionally dense in discussion and here we are trying to explain that "A copy means the thing is the same" and "1 and 2 aren't the same numbers" to a grown man.
This thread is a special case, I think.
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