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Tags Graham Hancock , joe rogan , michael shermer , zahi hawass

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Old Yesterday, 07:28 PM   #1361
Reality Check
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Thumbs down A delusion that Chilean trees could not be planted in the 57 years since 1960

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Nope...proof ....
22 November 2017: A delusion that Chilean trees could not be planted in the 57 years since 1960 because there was an earthquake.
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Old Yesterday, 07:32 PM   #1362
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
22 November 2017: A delusion that Chilean trees could not be planted in the 57 years since 1960 because there was an earthquake.
Pick a year, and we'll analyze their financial capability together.
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Old Yesterday, 07:34 PM   #1363
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Right, and I am sure they were the ones out there planting...
And I'm equally sure you have supporting evidence of that.
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Old Yesterday, 07:35 PM   #1364
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Pick a year, and we'll analyze their financial capability together.
1960-2017
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Old Yesterday, 07:43 PM   #1365
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KOTA is insisting in digging deeper into his pit of ignorance, fantasy and some lies so all we can do is record them for posterity.
22 items of ignorant assertions and fantasies from 9 November 2017 to 21 November 2017
  1. 21 November 2017: A lie that "none of you, seemingly, have "followed the lines""
  2. 21 November 2017: A delusion that another modern forest is connected to Easter Island because of "lines" across the sea floor in Google Earth.
  3. 22 November 2017: Repeats the delusion of a young, isolated culture (the Cook Islands) being evidence of a globally connected civilization 12,000 years ago.
  4. 22 November 2017: With no source we have a delusion that Google Earth labels trees with their ages (all we see is the some are wider than others)!
  5. 22 November 2017: The irrelevant idiocy of wanting to date trees on island(s) - especially in non-temperate climates.
  6. 22 November 2017: Irrelevant and idiotic (no hint of research) images of what looks like modern forestry.
  7. 22 November 2017: An irrelevant image of an "Oak Island" with a "II"
  8. 22 November 2017: An irrelevant "Abandoned Farms of Africa" image.
  9. 22 November 2017: An ignorant and irrelevant "Which part is modern day replanting" from an image question.
  10. 22 November 2017: A post of ignorant delusions ,e.g. that the Pacific Ocean was empty!
  11. 22 November 2017: A probable lie of "Researching Government Budgets".
  12. 22 November 2017: A delusion that only governments plant trees (I live in a country where private forestry is an significant industry)?
  13. 22 November 2017: A probable lie of "Addressing the Historical Record".
  14. 22 November 2017: A delusion that North American forestry techniques have not ever changed?
  15. 22 November 2017: A lie about having no clue about the age of plantations - he has been given many sources on the planting of the Chilean trees starting in the 1960s.
  16. 22 November 2017: A delusion that Chilean trees could not be planted in the 57 years since 1960 because there was an earthquake.
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Old Yesterday, 07:50 PM   #1366
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Pick a year, and we'll analyze their financial capability together.
You are the one with the delusion that it is impossible for Chile to plant the trees we see today over a period of 5 decades. You provide the financial numbers.
The Chileans planted about 37,000 ha between 1975 and 1989 with another 20,483 ha planted as in what you quoted. That was ~5.7 million trees actually planted by 1991.

22 November 2017: A lie about having no clue about the age of plantations - he has been given many sources on the planting of the Chilean trees starting in the 1960s.

Since KOTA foolishly brought up the cost of planting trees:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
A real world fact for KOTA to ignore or deny: in 2010, Weyerhaeuser reported planting 50 million seedlings.[4]
In 1 year a single company planted more tree seedlings than all of the trees planted in the Chilean areas KOTA thinks were planted 12,000 years ago and were actually planted from the 1960's to today over a period of 60 years.
This is a company (not a much richer government!) planting more trees in 1 year than probably exist in the Chilean plantings from planting over a period of over 50 years !

ETA: Cost of tree planting
Quote:
Pine seedlings are cheaper and easier to plant than hardwoods. Seedling costs for pine average $40 per 1000 seedlings, while hardwoods such as yellow-poplar and oaks average $250 or more per 1,000 seedlings.
(a USA site so USA dollars and costs)
That is a cost of $12.5 million for 50 million trees spread over 50 years or $250,000 dollars per year. A rough estimate for Chile would be to double that to $500,000 dollars per year. Even if we rather insanely make the Chileans spend 10 times the amount that is only $2,500,000 dollars a year.
In 1960 the GDP of Chile was 4 billion USD. In 2016 the GDP of Chile was 247 billion USD.

Last edited by Reality Check; Yesterday at 08:23 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 08:28 PM   #1367
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Anyone hear about the earthquake Chile had in 1960?
No I was too busy reading their reforestation budget

CONSERVATION FINANCE NETWORK
"Chilean Reforestation Campaign Taps into Marketing Innovation"
https://www.conservationfinancenetwo...ing-innovation

The OECD states that Chile reforests 20,000 hectares a year to qualify for OECD funding starting in 2001.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...budget&f=false
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Old Today, 01:41 AM   #1368
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
No I was too busy reading their reforestation budget

CONSERVATION FINANCE NETWORK
"Chilean Reforestation Campaign Taps into Marketing Innovation"
https://www.conservationfinancenetwo...ing-innovation

The OECD states that Chile reforests 20,000 hectares a year to qualify for OECD funding starting in 2001.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...budget&f=false
KOTA will probably give you a facepalm for this.
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Old Today, 02:04 AM   #1369
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The oldest of each tree will naturally have the widest canopy.

Here’s an interesting link about tree growth, and it may not be as linear as you think.

Diameter growth: can live trees decrease?

https://academic.oup.com/forestry/ar...80/1/83/634218

...the occurrence of data showing a diameter decrease in successive forest inventories may be due to physiological and physical processes in the natural dynamics of the stand, and not exclusively be explained away as the results of human measurement errors...

...It has been implicit that tree dimensions invariably increase (Klepac, 1976). However,height growth can decrease from one year to anther, due to the death or breakage of the main branch in advanced development phases....This has also been observed in diameter, due to bark removal or wounds over the stem...


This is only a piece of research, but it does suggest that the oldest may not necessarily be the largest.
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Old Today, 02:05 AM   #1370
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I need people in places to take some core ring samples...


Why don’t you do it, Mr Truth Seeker?
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Old Today, 02:10 AM   #1371
Craig B
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I need people in places to take some core ring samples...
Just as you needed carbon dating samples from Tiwanaku taken from material found beneath undisturbed stones, because ordinary samples yield dates that don't accord with your eccentric hypotheses.
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Old Today, 03:55 AM   #1372
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Establishing a forest made up of hundreds of symmetrical blocks each 21,000+ plants 45 feet apart, totaling in the millions...requires more than seeds and string.
And a forest that has been abandoned and neglected since pre-Columbian times would never have maintained a perfect grid pattern with straight clear roads.
The layout of the forest proves that it can't be some kind of abandoned ancient forest.

Your only argument against the claims of the Chilean government is that you just don't believe them...
And you can't account for the perfectly maintained appearance of a forest that, according to you, has been doin' its own thang for ages...
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Old Today, 06:40 AM   #1373
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You are the one with the delusion that it is impossible for Chile to plant the trees we see today over a period of 5 decades. You provide the financial numbers.
The Chileans planted about 37,000 ha between 1975 and 1989 with another 20,483 ha planted as in what you quoted. That was ~5.7 million trees actually planted by 1991.

22 November 2017: A lie about having no clue about the age of plantations - he has been given many sources on the planting of the Chilean trees starting in the 1960s.

Since KOTA foolishly brought up the cost of planting trees:

This is a company (not a much richer government!) planting more trees in 1 year than probably exist in the Chilean plantings from planting over a period of over 50 years !

ETA: Cost of tree planting

(a USA site so USA dollars and costs)
That is a cost of $12.5 million for 50 million trees spread over 50 years or $250,000 dollars per year. A rough estimate for Chile would be to double that to $500,000 dollars per year. Even if we rather insanely make the Chileans spend 10 times the amount that is only $2,500,000 dollars a year.
In 1960 the GDP of Chile was 4 billion USD. In 2016 the GDP of Chile was 247 billion USD.
BWAAAA HAAAA HAAAA!

So, now it is 75-91??? And NOT the 1960's anymore...!?!?

It isn't possible to produce a Prosopis tamarugo tree with a 40 foot wide canopy in a few decades.

If you want to learn (seriously) about the Prosopis tamarugo tree, here's a great study on what conditions offer it growth and survival and what effects drought has on seedlings. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5603963/

The cost of planting millions upon million of seeds or seedlings, and keeping them watered until established, for Chile, in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, or the 1990's...is not evidenced in their historical financial record. No pictures exist of the vast hydration system that would have been necessary, nor pictures of seedlings or scientists measuring growth...surely a country investing in such a project would want its progress documented???

Who was the director, project designer, lead engineer?

You can't find this information because this is not a modern creation.
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Old Today, 06:53 AM   #1374
Craig B
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The UN FAO seems to think it's a modern phenomenon, as this article indicates. Reconquering the desert [Prosopis tamarugo, reforestation, Chile]. [Spanish] [1982]. See also http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/AD320E/AD320E02.htm.
The "Corporación de Fomento de la Producción de Chile (CORFO) (Chilean Corporation for the Promotion of Production), through its National Livestock Development Programme (1961–1970) tried to approach the problem of the development of the northern areas in a different way - a way which might be called “desert economics”, or making use of those special natural features of desert regions which are difficult to alter. The main idea was to transform the desert into an ecosystem where agro-forestry would predominate an attractive hypothesis no doubt, from the standpoint of harmonious social and economic development.
But by now I think it is clear that you are in full trolling mode, simply posting the first nonsense that enters your head.

Last edited by Craig B; Today at 07:00 AM.
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Old Today, 07:11 AM   #1375
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KOTA Why do you assume that something only exists if you can find it on a website?
Vast am mounts of historical documents and records only exist in physical paper or microfilm form
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Old Today, 07:24 AM   #1376
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I love that KotA still hasn't answered some of the most basic questions:

Considering these trees don't live long enough to have been planted by any of the "lost civilizations" he's proposed, why does he think they're relevant at all?

Assuming they are older than official sources state, why in the world would anyone bother to start a conspiracy to obscure their origin and why wouldn't anyone say "No, what are you talking about, those have always been here!" and maybe even provide photos?

If it's so hard to plant this many trees, why was it so easy for whoever he thinks did do it? Where did they get all these local tree saplings, if they came from overseas? Why did they only plant local trees at all these different places? Why did they plant the trees at all?

Why does he think that glancing at Google Earth lets him positively identify practically anything he can imagine?
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Old Today, 09:03 AM   #1377
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The UN FAO seems to think it's a modern phenomenon, as this article indicates. Reconquering the desert [Prosopis tamarugo, reforestation, Chile]. [Spanish] [1982]. See also http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/AD320E/AD320E02.htm.
The "Corporación de Fomento de la Producción de Chile (CORFO) (Chilean Corporation for the Promotion of Production), through its National Livestock Development Programme (1961–1970) tried to approach the problem of the development of the northern areas in a different way - a way which might be called “desert economics”, or making use of those special natural features of desert regions which are difficult to alter. The main idea was to transform the desert into an ecosystem where agro-forestry would predominate an attractive hypothesis no doubt, from the standpoint of harmonious social and economic development.
But by now I think it is clear that you are in full trolling mode, simply posting the first nonsense that enters your head.
GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR SOWING AND PLANTING TAMARUGO
Lanino (1972)

Soil is prepared in the nursery using a 2:1 mixture of earth and guano.

Unperforated plastic bags, 12 cm in diameter and 30 cm long, are filled with this mixture and placed in a carefully-levelled planting bed. They are then watered to saturation.

Three to five seeds are sown at a depth of 1.5 cm. They must first be treated with sulphuric acid for 7 minutes, then thoroughly washed and left to dry in the shade.

Initial watering depends on soil and climate. It is important to keep the surface, where the seeds are planted, wet but not to accumulate water in the bottom of the bags, as this would encourage fungus growth. It is best to treat the soil with fungicide before sowing to avoid attacks of fungus.

Once the seeds have germinated, more water is given but at greater intervals, to ensure a supply of moisture to the downward-growing roots. The excessive use of water should be avoided.

The seedlings stay in the nursery for 3 to 5 months, until they reach a height of 8 to 10 cm. Care should be taken to ensure that the roots do not pierce the plastic.

Plantation spacings in the Tamarugal Pampa are at 10 × 10 m and 15 × 15 m, taking into consideration the tree's growth and its function as fodder. A pit is dug in the ground and in it a hole is made 20 cm in diameter and 50 cm deep, which is abundantly manured with guano. The depth of the pit depends on the terrain; it is usually 80 cm in diameter by 30–70 cm deep, but may vary according to the depth of the salt crust which must be penetrated before making the planting hole.

Before planting, the hole is watered so as to saturate the soil as far down as possible.

The bottom of the plastic bags are split at planting so that the roots can pass through.

The plastic bags must be removed with great care to avoid breaking the cylinder of earth as this would damage the root and result in loss of the plant.

The frequency with which the plants are watered depends on soil and climate. There must be enough water to penetrate to the roots and keep them moist.

The plants are established when they send out new shoots. When this occurs, watering can be spaced at intervals of 20 days, though care should be taken to ensure that the water penetrates properly. If there is moisture in the subsoil, it is advisable to determine whether the roots have reached it by suspending watering and observing the reaction of the plants.

---
Attached Images
File Type: gif AD320E28.gif (34.7 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg AD320E27.jpg (57.3 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg AD320E54.jpg (51.8 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg AD320E32.jpg (53.2 KB, 1 views)
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Old Today, 09:07 AM   #1378
King of the Americas
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*Notice the full grown trees behind the SINGLE planter...
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Old Today, 09:11 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I love that KotA still hasn't answered some of the most basic questions:

Considering these trees don't live long enough to have been planted by any of the "lost civilizations" he's proposed, why does he think they're relevant at all?

Assuming they are older than official sources state, why in the world would anyone bother to start a conspiracy to obscure their origin and why wouldn't anyone say "No, what are you talking about, those have always been here!" and maybe even provide photos?

If it's so hard to plant this many trees, why was it so easy for whoever he thinks did do it? Where did they get all these local tree saplings, if they came from overseas? Why did they only plant local trees at all these different places? Why did they plant the trees at all?

Why does he think that glancing at Google Earth lets him positively identify practically anything he can imagine?
And invent any preposterous back story to explain them.
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Old Today, 09:16 AM   #1380
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
*Notice the full grown trees behind the SINGLE planter...
Where? Why?
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Old Today, 09:22 AM   #1381
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Where? Why?
BEHIND the single planter...

Because it shows these are FULLY FORMED trees when these pictures were taken.

They were NOT planted in this manner at this time.
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