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Old 12th September 2017, 07:20 PM   #81
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
First draft of history.

A 9/11 Commissioner's words, not mine.
So *********** what? Yes, part of the aim of the 9/11 Commission was to find out what happened and why, and in that sense to write a 'first draft of history'; subsequent drafts would be compiled, as one might expect, by historians studying the events and adding their own commentaries.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Or are you referring to the NIST investigation into the WTC destruction that was a PROVED FRAUD? Fraud, Oystein! That doesn't bother you when NIST screws with their computer model to make their desired scenario work, and even then it doesn't match with the photographic evidence, etc.?
We know that the aim of the NIST investigations was to determine likely failure modes of the buildings that could then be engineered out in future construction. They did so, and their results are widely accepted by competent structural engineers (as opposed to incompetent armchair critics). Since your claim of fraud is untrue, does that therefore make you a proven liar?

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Unsatisfactory also in the sense that there are so many anomalies with the WTC that they never bothered explaining, like the foreknowledge of WTC 7.
They also never explained why the video recorder often misses the first minute of the program, the toast always falls butter side down, or the second cup of coffee never tastes quite as good as the first. In fact, they didn't explain anything irrelevant to the failure modes of the building. Oh, the horror.

One wonders whether the inability of 9/11 truthers to understand that, when two skyscrapers have just collapsed and a third has been burning unchecked for several hours, someone with a functioning brain cell might think it likely that the third will collapse, is wilful or simply innate stupidity, but there isn't really a third option.

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 12th September 2017, 07:37 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Whoever doesn't want more investigations are the real ones crapping on 3000+ victims (including those suffering or have died from WTC-related illness). What kind of person doesn't want an investigation into the biggest attack on the country since World War 2?
Since the attack has already been investigated in detail by the FBI (in the largest investigation in the history of that agency), FEMA, NIST, a government-appointed commission, and several private agencies, all of whom agree on the significant points where their areas of investigation overlap. This is clearly not good enough for you; fine, let's just accept that for the moment rather than going into the reasons why it isn't. Can you please describe the investigation you feel is needed in sufficient detail that it should actually be carried out? Who would conduct it, what powers would they possess, how would these powers be delegated to them and from where, and what would be the ultimate aim in terms of actions arising from this new investigation? That would be a good starting point.

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:36 PM   #83
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Tens of thousands of tons of steel debris, and they put them in some yards, spend several hundred hours selecting several hundred pieces, and then sell everything else as scrap several weeks later. After that, they pursue an investigation driven by videos and computer models. That alone makes the investigation open to a lot of skepticism.
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:11 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Your anger comes from propaganda. Whoever doesn't want more investigations are the real ones crapping on 3000+ victims (including those suffering or have died from WTC-related illness). What kind of person doesn't want an investigation into the biggest attack on the country since World War 2?

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My anger is totally directed against people like you.

No propaganda. I am a structural engineer and have the logic and competence to review the plethora of evidence and studies out there and based on my experience and knowledge the conclusions drawn are reasonable.

None of the BS that Richard Gage and his ilk make any reasonable sense.

The fact that people chose to jump out of the building rather than walk down because the fires were too widespread, illustrates the cowardice of the truth movement. Whitewashing over this tragic detail to further a psychological cognitive bias dishonours the memory of those poor souls.

The entire premisis of the truth movement does not even get off the ground. In 16 years no logical, plausible scenario has ever been provided as to how 3 fully staffed office buildings were magically rigged for demolition, without a single person wondering why the hell have these guys been drilling into columns and laying thousands of detonation charges, cables and so forth, without saying gee arent these explosive likely to kill someone, should I maybe say something?



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Old 13th September 2017, 12:23 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ralfyman View Post
Tens of thousands of tons of steel debris, and they put them in some yards, spend several hundred hours selecting several hundred pieces, and then sell everything else as scrap several weeks later. After that, they pursue an investigation driven by videos and computer models. That alone makes the investigation open to a lot of skepticism.
Perhaps in your mind it does?

In the minds of rational people, it was relatively obvious.

Everyone saw the planes strike the towers and the ensuing fireball and the fires afterwards.

Rational, sensible and logical people can derive that, that has pretty much everything to do with why they collapsed.

Logical, rational and sensible people would have understood that the likelihood of mysterious people sneaking in undetected for several months, ripping out dry walls, drilling into columns, placing in detonation charges, laying of thousands of meters of detonation charges, completely undetected is as near to zero as possible, would mean the collapse had something, if not everything to do with the impact and subsequant fires that followed the plane crashes.

So to examine every single member of steel would be superfluous and a reasonable engineer would understand that they would only need a select few structural members to examine the specific dynamics of the collapse.

But, lets be honest, even if they had studied and documented every single piece of steel recovered, you and the truth movement would still reject those findings as that would not satisfy your psychological cognitive bias that this tragic occurence must be a conspiracy.

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Old 13th September 2017, 01:14 PM   #86
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No, ralfyman is right, you're the one who is blind but fancies yourself a skeptic with high standards.

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Old 13th September 2017, 01:24 PM   #87
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Citizen investigations are fine, it's the crappy sort of industry that's built on top of it that continues to dupe people after the leading "investigators" realize they haven't found anything significant.

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Old 13th September 2017, 01:52 PM   #88
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16 years of lies - dumbest lies ever

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
... What kind of person doesn't want an investigation into the biggest attack on the country since World War 2? ...
FBI's biggest investigation in history, ignored by 9/11 truth fantasy believers. 16 years of 9/11 truth spreading dumbed down lies fooling gullible CTers; mocking the murder of thousands by gullible followers of UBL.

Gullible truthers, gullible terrorists.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:54 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
First draft of history.

A 9/11 Commissioner's words, not mine.

Or are you referring to the NIST investigation into the WTC destruction that was a PROVED FRAUD? Fraud, Oystein! That doesn't bother you when NIST screws with their computer model to make their desired scenario work, and even then it doesn't match with the photographic evidence, etc.? Unsatisfactory also in the sense that there are so many anomalies with the WTC that they never bothered explaining, like the foreknowledge of WTC 7.
Who "proved" that the WTC destruction was fraud, when most who read the reports accepts the interpretation.

Since you have no knowledge or practical experience running simulations it isn't too much of a stretch to figure out "screwing" with those simulations. You vary the parameters so that the simulation is representative to the actual event. The dynamics are so many and so varied, no one could program correctly the first time.

Like the foreknowledge of the WTC 7 [sic] collapse? Oh you mean those individuals who surmised that a building that was burning for nearly 7 hours might collapse? You are truly a example of someone who criticizes people for not thinking properly, yet swallowing CT BS hook line and sinker without giving that belief scrutiny. Truly sad.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:55 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Ah, I finally found a Truthy event almost (Sunday, September 10) on the Anniversary:


aka "First Annual 9/11 Activist Summit" hosted by Sibel Edmonds' "Newsbud"

It's a webinar, 150 minutes, and to dial in you have to puchase advance tickets - at a whopping US$ 180! ($145 for Newsbud members).

The Panel of "Truth Titans" consists of
  • Sibel Edmonds, "FBI whistleblower"
  • James Corbett of the "Corbett Report"
  • Cynthia McKinney, Former U.S. Congresswoman (GA) & 9/11 Twoofie
  • Wayne Madsen, Investigative Author
  • Daniel Estulin- Best-Selling Author that I never even heard of
Plus, they promise 2 "Star guests" One a "whistleblower" (I expect Kevin Ryan), and another from the "scholars community" (S. Jones? Fetzer??)

What kind of audience is willing to shell out 180 bucks for 150 minutes of the same old boring same old boring? I might pay this much for another Led Zeppelin reunion... but then again, not really.
I can't find any summary or footage of how that event went, or who the "mystery" guests were.

On NewBud's Twitter:
https://twitter.com/NewsBud_/status/907078809173745665
Originally Posted by @NewsBud_
#Newsbud Thanks The All-Star Panel For The 9/11 Activist Summit Titans of Truth And A Special thank You To Everyone Who Attended!
Originally Posted by Greg Slepak‏
It's funny how Spiro lied during the thing and said there were no questions for Bill when there were. /cc @corbettreport
Check out https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/907085868745211905
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Old 17th September 2017, 11:29 AM   #91
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Mod Warning A large number of posts discussing more general matters than the anniversary have been moved to the general 9/11 discussion thread.
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:22 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I can't find any summary or footage of how that event went, or who the "mystery" guests were.

On NewBud's Twitter:
https://twitter.com/NewsBud_/status/907078809173745665

Check out https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/907085868745211905

Who is the "Bill" Slepak is talking about?
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:54 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
Who is the "Bill" Slepak is talking about?
An executive of NewsBud, apparently, the host of the debate.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:29 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
An executive of NewsBud, apparently, the host of the debate.
And Sible Edmonds is "editor and publisher of Newsbud". I honestly wasn't expecting this. I thought she was someone who had a story to tell but the CTers were making it more there than was actually there. She sounds like she's gone full woo.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:47 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
And Sible Edmonds is "editor and publisher of Newsbud". I honestly wasn't expecting this. I thought she was someone who had a story to tell but the CTers were making it more there than was actually there. She sounds like she's gone full woo.
It's a disinfo site, IMO.
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Old 17th September 2017, 05:25 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It's a disinfo site, IMO.
Poe?
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Old 17th September 2017, 07:32 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Sent from my IBM Simon at Mount Hua Teahouse.
I never wanted one of those.
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Old 17th September 2017, 07:46 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
For the grownups in the room, History Channel aired "The Road to 9-11" over the weekend:

Descripttion:

http://www.history.com/shows/road-to-911/about

Episodes

http://www.history.com/shows/road-to-911

It was three episodes of comprehensive back-story about every aspect leading to the successful attacks.

All the players are interviewed, Clarke, Scheuer, Black, and dozens of others in the FBI, CIA, and journalists from Pakistan, and the Middle East.

It is the first time I've seen the chain of CIA decision traced to where needed information was blocked from continuing to the FBI. They don't name the guy, but the how and way is spelled out.

Check it out if you can.
Finished watching the three episodes. The inter rivalry between the CIA and FBI was appalling. That said I have been involved with government bureaucracies in my career namely the EPA vs NRA and they showed the same bickering and infighting shown in the episode. Perhaps that is just the way of government agencies.

I was amused at the difference of opinion of Clarke and Scheuer concerning the proposed assassination of Bin Laden in the 90's. Who knows what might have been, had they carried out a successful attack.

I doubt the "truthers" watched the episodes but anyone with a semblance of intelligence can see the evidence that this wasn't a government plot, CD or covering up of miscues.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:57 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by ralfyman View Post
Tens of thousands of tons of steel debris, and they put them in some yards, spend several hundred hours selecting several hundred pieces, and then sell everything else as scrap several weeks later. After that, they pursue an investigation driven by videos and computer models. That alone makes the investigation open to a lot of skepticism.

Investigators had more than enough physical, video, audio, and data evidence to make a determination as to what caused the collapse of the WTC buildings and more than enough evidence to rule out CD.
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:33 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ralfyman View Post
Tens of thousands of tons of steel debris, and they put them in some yards, spend several hundred hours selecting several hundred pieces, and then sell everything else as scrap several weeks later.

Once again, it was not required nor practical to check every piece of steel from the WTC buildings to determine what caused the collapse of those buildings. Each piece of steel removed from ground zero was not invisible to those in the area. Check it out.


Quote:
American Society of Civil Engineers
Towers Weakened by Planes; Brought Down by Fire

Analysis by a team of 25 of the nation's leading structural and fire protection engineers suggests that the World Trade Center Towers could have remained standing indefinitely if fire had not overwhelmed the weakened structures, according to a report presented today at a hearing of the House Science Committee.

That finding is significant, said W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., team lead for the ASCE/FEMA Building Performance Study Team, because extreme events of this type, resulting in such substantial damage, are generally not considered in building design, and the fact that these structures were able to successfully withstand such damage is noteworthy.

http://911-engineers.blogspot.com/


Civil & Structural Engineers on WTC Collapse

"The aircraft moved through the building as if it were a hot and fast lava flow," Sozen says. "Consequently, much of the fireproofing insulation was ripped off the structure. Even if all of the columns and girders had survived the impact - an unlikely event - the structure would fail as the result of a buckling of the columns.

The heat from an ordinary office fire would suffice to soften and weaken the unprotected steel. Evaluation of the effects of the fire on the core column structure, with the insulation removed by the impact, showed that collapse would follow whatever the number of columns cut at the time of the impact."


Good Science and 9-11 Demolition Theories

In Brent Blanchard's paper he devotes section 5 to the issue of thermite and molten metal. His team spoke directly to operators who cleared Ground Zero, and he concludes: 'To a man, they do not recall encountering molten structural steel beams, nor do they recall seeing any evidence of pre-cutting or explosive severance of beans at any point during debris removal activities.'

http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings...11-03Aug06.htm


WTC Buckling

The NYPD aviation unit reported critical information about the impending collapse of the buildings." They could see that the exterior steel beams of the buildings were bowing. You can see the inward bowing of the steel columns in pictures of both WTC 2, (the first building to collapse) and WTC 1 (the second building to collapse.)

Buckling Steel

Dr. Shyam Sunder, lead investigator for NIST's building and fire safety investigation into the WTC disaster, said, "While the buildings were able to withstand the initial impact of the aircraft, the resulting fires that spread through the towers weakened support columns and floors that had fireproofing dislodged by the impacts. This eventually led to collapse as the perimeter columns were pulled inward by the sagging floors and buckled." "The reason the towers collapsed is because the fireproofing was dislodged," according to Sunder. If the fireproofing had remained in place, Sunder said, the fires would have burned out and moved on without weakening key elements to the point of structural collapse." -

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0411122017.htm
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