Letter to America by Bin Laden and Tik Tok

[ahhell]

So, I realize its a bit of a moral panic on the right currently but its a panic about an actual concerning thing. The Tik Tok post of kids saying how Bin Laden's letter to america blew their mind.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...k-context.html

Has anyone actually read it? Its a mix of valid criticism, rabid anti-semitism and puritanical crazy. Mostly the last two. And its not like the valid criticism is new or unique to Bin Laden, lots of folks who don't hate the Jews and gays have said similar things. Are these kids trolls or just stupid?

[Darat]

I'll just say Bin Laden.... and leave it at that

[The Great Zaganza]

Look at it from this way:

all they heard about Bin Laden so far was that he way a rabid monster with no coherent thought or redeemable quality.
So any new information that puts this extreme picture into question is bound to raise a whole string of questions about what else they were taught wasn't quite as Black and White as they had been taught.

I had a somewhat similar experience when, after learning for a decade that the USSR was the Evil Empire on the Doorstep, ready to invade every peace-loving country in the world, I happened to look at a map of Soviet Bases in the World vs. US bases: it was clear who was on who's doorstep.

Instead of calling the kids stupid or trolls, point them to high-quality sources of information from all sides, and let them make up their own mind.
Telling them that only the US narrative is legitimate will only push them further away.

[Brainster]

It's anti-American and anti-Israel. Of course young leftists are going to swoon over it.

[Thermal]

Many hilites of the "letter" are taken out of context, and seem to be valid criticisms of the US, standalone. Kids latch onto them in a vacuum, because kids are kind of ******* stupid that way.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Many hilites of the "letter" are taken out of context, and seem to be valid criticisms of the US, standalone. Kids latch onto them in a vacuum, because kids are kind of ******* stupid that way.

I wonder if there's some edited version going around because really is mostly reactionary BS with a smattering of valid criticism. At one point he claims the US created the satanic AIDs virus at another he lists W Clintons BJ as one of our major crimes and criticizes not signing on to the Paris Climate Treaty.

[Donal]

Originally Posted by ahhell

So, I realize its a bit of a moral panic on the right currently but its a panic about an actual concerning thing. The Tik Tok post of kids saying how Bin Laden's letter to america blew their mind.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...k-context.html

Has anyone actually read it? Its a mix of valid criticism, rabid anti-semitism and puritanical crazy. Mostly the last two. And its not like the valid criticism is new or unique to Bin Laden, lots of folks who don't hate the Jews and gays have said similar things. Are these kids trolls or just stupid?

Mostly trolling. Some of them may be "having their minds blown" but that's as much a failure of the previous generations. A lot of these kids have figured out that history is not some one dimensional Disney fairy tale. And once that shell gets cracked, a lot of stuff pours through.

and frankly, "rabid anti-Semitic, crazy puritanical" can also describe at least one speaker at the pro-Israel rally last week in DC. And it certainly applies to more than one elected official in all levels of government.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Donal

Mostly trolling. Some of them may be "having their minds blown" but that's as much a failure of the previous generations. A lot of these kids have figured out that history is not some one dimensional Disney fairy tale. And once that shell gets cracked, a lot of stuff pours through.

and frankly, "rabid anti-Semitic, crazy puritanical" can also describe at least one speaker at the pro-Israel rally last week in DC. And it certainly applies to more than one elected official in all levels of government.

Sure, but its not like some op ed from them is going blow anyone's mind.

This tik tok trend is like someone becoming a vegetarian after reading some letter hitler wrote about why he's a vegetarian. Sure, might be full of good reasons to become a vegetarian but its not like he's the only source of good reasons to be a vegetarian. Why aren't these kids reading Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky?

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by ahhell

I wonder if there's some edited version going around because really is mostly reactionary BS with a smattering of valid criticism. At one point he claims the US created the satanic AIDs virus at another he lists W Clintons BJ as one of our major crimes and criticizes not signing on to the Paris Climate Treaty.

Paris was in 2015 and Bin Laden was killed in 2011. Or was he?

Haven't watched the Tik Tok thing, but it must have AI.

[Venom]

Similar to the "Hitler had a point" trolling that the rightwing social media tryhards engage in. Insert the name of any notorious historical figure.

[Manopolus]

I'm not concerned, because:

1. I read Mein Kampf unsupervised while in high school. I am not a Nazi. Nor am I the least bit antisemitic.
2. Even before that, I read The Bible (the whole thing). That is literally when I first rejected Christianity.
3. Much later, I also read The Unabomber Manifesto. As expected, I didn't suddenly morph into an ideological clone of Ted Kaczynski.

This isn't an exhaustive list. There are many more examples I could use.

Reading doesn't turn you into an ideological clone of the writer. It just doesn't work that way. Videos don't work that way, either. If you pick something up from a bit of writing or a video, it's generally because you were either predisposed to the ideas or because they actually had a point. And just because you accept one point doesn't mean you'll accept the whole screed.

If watching Bin Ladin turns someone into a terrorist, they had to have been impressionable to the point of insanity, even for a teenager.

That said, I don't advocate using Tiktok. It's about security, not content.

And to be honest, I have no way of knowing whether others might be more impressionable than I ever was. Some of the things that conspiracists believe, and successfully spread, tend to give me pause. However, I can only make judgments based on my own experience. Therefore, I am not concerned. Anyone with reasonable judgment will reject these things upon being exposed to them. The war of ideology is won by providing more exposure to ideas, not less. Once you start realizing how absolutely full of crap humanity is, you aren't as prone to being influenced by ideological garbage. And teenagers are almost unanimously well on their way to that conclusion.

[novaphile]

Jimmy Carr had a beauty about Hitler...

"Sure Hitler did a lot of really evil things, but he did kill Hitler."

[Donal]

that's an old joke. "You gotta give one thing to Hitler, he is the man who killed Hitler."

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Paris was in 2015 and Bin Laden was killed in 2011. Or was he?

Haven't watched the Tik Tok thing, but it must have AI.

It might have been the kyoto accords or something. Stood out on account of all the list of bad things we, invade countries, let the gays live, let the Jews secretly run our economy, didn't agree to limit emissions.

[Beelzebuddy]

A story about a story about something someone said in a comment thread. Sure, totes concerned, fr fr. And omg did u hear about Becky touching that marijuana? She thought it was a tide pod and now she's dead bros.

[angrysoba]

Oh kids being edgy on TikTok? What next?

I mean, to give my own edgy hot take, maybe there is some progress here.

Back in 2005-6 it would have been “9/11 was like totally an inside job! Just found this awesome book called the Protools. Not read it but it says how the Jews took over the media!”

Now, it’s “Yeah Osama did it and we totally, like, deserved it, okay!?”

[Nosi]

Originally Posted by Darat

I'll just say Bin Laden.... and leave it at that

[The Great Zaganza]

there is now an added layer to this story, has most media platforms have taken steps to remove access to links to the Letter, and banned many accounts speaking in favor of Bin Laden.
And, maybe in a first for this generation, TikTok kids in the West have seen a case of the Chinese Government coming down hard in censorship here, blocking and banning just about anything to do with this.
That might be a healthy wake-up call to those who thought that TikTok is just as much subject to political censorship than the worst in the West - and more.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Paris was in 2015 and Bin Laden was killed in 2011. Or was he?

Haven't watched the Tik Tok thing, but it must have AI.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

there is now an added layer to this story, has most media platforms have taken steps to remove access to links to the Letter, and banned many accounts speaking in favor of Bin Laden.
And, maybe in a first for this generation, TikTok kids in the West have seen a case of the Chinese Government coming down hard in censorship here, blocking and banning just about anything to do with this.
That might be a healthy wake-up call to those who thought that TikTok is just as much subject to political censorship than the worst in the West - and more.

I knew a few did, cause that's gonna change anything just like how there aren't any NAZIs in germany because you can't get a copy of Mein Kampf.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Manopolus

I'm not concerned, because:

1. I read Mein Kampf unsupervised while in high school. I am not a Nazi. Nor am I the least bit antisemitic.

Did you think it was a good book? Did you think Hitler was on to something? Or did you come away thinking, that guy is a ******* lunatic monster?

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Reading doesn't turn you into an ideological clone of the writer.

The problem isn't simply that kids are reading this stuff. And for the most part, they probably aren't really reading it, but only snippets of it.

The problem is that so many of them like it.

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That said, I don't advocate using Tiktok. It's about security, not content.

Security is a good reason not to use it. But content is absolutely a problem when you're talking about kids.

Quote:

Anyone with reasonable judgment will reject these things upon being exposed to them.

A lot of people are demonstrating that they don't have reasonable judgment.

There's room for disagreement about whether this TikTok/bin Laden thing is the source of a problem or just an indicator (I tend towards a mix), but there's a huge problem here. We should not bury our heads in the sand about it.

Quote:

The war of ideology is won by providing more exposure to ideas, not less.

Nice in theory, and for adults I agree. For children, it's not that simple. And it's hard to counter bad ideas if you don't even know your children are being exposed to them.

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Once you start realizing how absolutely full of crap humanity is, you aren't as prone to being influenced by ideological garbage. And teenagers are almost unanimously well on their way to that conclusion.

That's manifestly not true. Teenagers are usually more easily influenced by ideological garbage when they become disillusioned. That's why youth movements are so often radical. That's why both the communists and the Nazis relied upon the young as their foot soldiers. It's very hard to get people to commit atrocities when they think humanity is basically good. The first step in that indoctrination is always to do exactly what you're suggesting: tell them that people are full of crap. That's a prerequisite for convincing them that the world needs cleansing fire.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by novaphile

Jimmy Carr had a beauty about Hitler...

"Sure Hitler did a lot of really evil things, but he did kill Hitler."

Originally Posted by Donal

that's an old joke. "You gotta give one thing to Hitler, he is the man who killed Hitler."

The best phrasing of the joke is, "Say what you will about Hitler, but at least he killed Hitler."

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Manopolus

I'm not concerned, because:

1. I read Mein Kampf unsupervised while in high school. I am not a Nazi. Nor am I the least bit antisemitic.
2. Even before that, I read The Bible (the whole thing). That is literally when I first rejected Christianity.
3. Much later, I also read The Unabomber Manifesto. As expected, I didn't suddenly morph into an ideological clone of Ted Kaczynski.

This isn't an exhaustive list. There are many more examples I could use.

Reading doesn't turn you into an ideological clone of the writer. It just doesn't work that way. Videos don't work that way, either. If you pick something up from a bit of writing or a video, it's generally because you were either predisposed to the ideas or because they actually had a point. And just because you accept one point doesn't mean you'll accept the whole screed.

If watching Bin Ladin turns someone into a terrorist, they had to have been impressionable to the point of insanity, even for a teenager.

That said, I don't advocate using Tiktok. It's about security, not content.

And to be honest, I have no way of knowing whether others might be more impressionable than I ever was. Some of the things that conspiracists believe, and successfully spread, tend to give me pause. However, I can only make judgments based on my own experience. Therefore, I am not concerned. Anyone with reasonable judgment will reject these things upon being exposed to them. The war of ideology is won by providing more exposure to ideas, not less. Once you start realizing how absolutely full of crap humanity is, you aren't as prone to being influenced by ideological garbage. And teenagers are almost unanimously well on their way to that conclusion.

Exactly!

There are some great quotes/ideas of Mao Zedong and Stalin. That I might recognize this doesn't mean I support Communism. I can be against some of Israel's and or the United State's actions, this doesn't make me anti-Israel or anti-American. Bin Laden was a cretin. But that doesn't mean every word he uttered was devoid of merit.

I'm a strong believer in hearing everything. The good and the bad. I think we need to teach people to learn how to separate the good from the crap.

The Bible says to love your neighbor. And that we are our brother's keeper.

It also says that if a man discovers his bride is not a virgin on his wedding night he has a responsibility to kill her and lay her on her father's doorstep. It also says that homosexuality is an abomination and we should stone those that lay with others of the same sex.

I think being able to tell that the two first ideas are good and the second two are crap is important.

[Manopolus]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Did you think it was a good book? Did you think Hitler was on to something? Or did you come away thinking, that guy is a ******* lunatic monster?

No. It was basically the rantings of a complete idiot, as far as I could tell. Nothing he said made much sense to me. It made me feel approximately the same way I do every time Trump opens his mouth today. Angry old bastard blaming his problems on anyone but himself.

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The problem isn't simply that kids are reading this stuff. And for the most part, they probably aren't really reading it, but only snippets of it.

The problem is that so many of them like it.

Perhaps they merely took the next logical step that comes after "owning the libs" or whatever. Online one-up-ism is indeed morally putrid. But perhaps it is we who have changed, not the younger generation.

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Security is a good reason not to use it. But content is absolutely a problem when you're talking about kids.

I respectfully disagree. Mere words and ideas don't turn kids to the dark side. It requires experiences to do that. Words are just words until you try to do something about it, and kids don't generally have the power or the confidence to do much before they grow out of it (whatever "it" is). There are exceptions (Slender Man Murderers), but they're kind of a special case, which arguably had less to do with the stories than it did with a particular child's mental illness.

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There's room for disagreement about whether this TikTok/bin Laden thing is the source of a problem or just an indicator (I tend towards a mix), but there's a huge problem here. We should not bury our heads in the sand about it.

The next generation will continue to ignore you regarding their generational culture whether you like it or not. Teenagers are like that. Always have been. You were, too. They're sometimes even worse as young adults. But they'll basically try too hard to change things that they want to change, fail miserably on most of it, and become just like their parents once they're married with children.

Some things will change. But that process is usually slower and more random than anyone wants and intimately tied to available technology. The only real change of late is the pace of technology and the availability of information. Everything else mostly consists of overgeneralizations by the grumpy-old-fart generation. That is no different than it has ever been, either.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Manopolus

I respectfully disagree. Mere words and ideas don't turn kids to the dark side.

You seem to be arguing that words can't do harm, which is manifestly not true. But it doesn't even matter. Like I said, even if you want to suggest that bin Laden's screed has had no effect, something has. Something has gone very wrong when children are agreeing with him. So we're still left with the question of what did that harm, and even more importantly, what to do about it. "Nothing" isn't a sensible response.

[Manopolus]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You seem to be arguing that words can't do harm, which is manifestly not true. But it doesn't even matter. Like I said, even if you want to suggest that bin Laden's screed has had no effect, something has. Something has gone very wrong when children are agreeing with him. So we're still left with the question of what did that harm, and even more importantly, what to do about it. "Nothing" isn't a sensible response.

To be fair, the situation in Israel is much more nuanced than is being portrayed. Obviously, terrorism must not be tolerated. But the Palestinian side does have legitimate grievances. Support for the people of Palestine alone (not the terrorists, but the common man) is not antisemitism. And leveraging the holocaust for sympathy (or to denigrate an entirely different enemy) doesn't work when it's actually the Jewish people wielding most of the power.

Aggressive settlement has continued, for one... wholly supported by the government of Israel. Also, only a small fraction of the people they are currently killing actually belong to Hamas.

So... to some degree they probably have a point. I don't know whether or which individuals have thought it through particularly clearly, of course. There is potentially a valid point in there somewhere, though. To be honest, I couldn't tell you which points are being made because I haven't been paying much attention. I abandoned the notion of taking a side in that conflict decades ago. It's just a messy part of the world as far as I'm concerned.

But Israel has been an ally for a long time, and I guess I'm mostly okay with that. I don't think Netanyahu was their best choice for leader, though.

[GrandMasterFox]

Is there some actual statistics on how many people actually like it?
I've seen stories that it's "hundreds of thousands". I've spoken to one, so it's obviously not zero, but proof that it is that big and not another mass hysteria panic?

As for the particular person, she clearly didn't read the whole thing and spewed absolute nonesense - like she kept repeating that it wasn't anti-semetic and he didn't refer to all the jews until it was clearly pointed out to her that he did in fact say that.

She at least admitted to be wrong about that, spewed some other nonesense and just disappeared.

As that is my only test sample, I can't say much. But from seeing other posts of her, I'd say - at least for her - it's basically confirmation bias of letting her just think of stuff she already believed in the past.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You seem to be arguing that words can't do harm, which is manifestly not true. But it doesn't even matter. Like I said, even if you want to suggest that bin Laden's screed has had no effect, something has. Something has gone very wrong when children are agreeing with him. So we're still left with the question of what did that harm, and even more importantly, what to do about it. "Nothing" isn't a sensible response.

Words definitely can do harm. But trying to cocoon our children is a significantly bigger mistake. Better to teach children good skeptical thinking skills then to prevent access to bad ideas.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Words definitely can do harm. But trying to cocoon our children is a significantly bigger mistake. Better to teach children good skeptical thinking skills then to prevent access to bad ideas.

Sure, but 1) kids aren't being taught skeptical thinking skills, and 2) cracking down on TikTok on the basis that it's Chinese spyware doesn't really constitute cocooning our children. Hell, keeping children off social media in general isn't really cocooning them. I would argue that it's the reverse: social media creates information cocoons for users.

[Manopolus]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Sure, but 1) kids aren't being taught skeptical thinking skills, and 2) cracking down on TikTok on the basis that it's Chinese spyware doesn't really constitute cocooning our children. Hell, keeping children off social media in general isn't really cocooning them. I would argue that it's the reverse: social media creates information cocoons for users.

I'd agree up to a point. The biggest problem is that social media doesn't teach actual social skills. You need real people in the real world for that.

But they don't have to have it all one way or the other, either.

And on the other hand, internet addicts don't often become alcohol dependent in their 20s, unlike my generations' social tendencies. Don't get me wrong. I don't even know whether alcohol has become cool again or not. I do know that bar patronage took a hit a decade ago or more. Some of that admittedly initially had to do with new smoking laws, but it just kept on declining for several years. Not close enough to a college bar to know any more though. But smoking and drinking were strongly linked back when they did that, so it affected both, regardless of whether the internet also played a role. So yeah, I'm probably rambling myself into potential self-contradiction.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Sure, but 1) kids aren't being taught skeptical thinking skills, and 2) cracking down on TikTok on the basis that it's Chinese spyware doesn't really constitute cocooning our children. Hell, keeping children off social media in general isn't really cocooning them. I would argue that it's the reverse: social media creates information cocoons for users.

One, if it is Chinese Spyware address that. Hell, if it's American Spyware, address that.

Two, you can't keep children off of social media without getting rid of social media. Huge First Amendment concerns there.

Three, let's effing teach the critical thinking skills instead of turning into NAZIs.

Four, you can't eliminate the social media. Like putting your finger into a sieve.

I think it's a lot easier and much better for the future to teach good critical thinking skills than going authoritarian.

[Stout]

I don't know where the idea that these are children posting these videos came from but here's a Tweet with a few examples of the videos under discussion.

Since we're running down the road of laughing at stupid stuff, Fox news ran a story yesterday about young women converting to Islam. Acctally, the Daily Mail has a better story, complete with examples. Mind you the Fox story features an interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Fox
Mail

Remember when you read Carlos Castenada and wandered away thinking WOW! these people KNOW things? That's what's going on here.

[The Great Zaganza]

we also have to consider the attention span here - of the many 100K gushing of the letter, probably 90K have already forgotten all about it.
TikTok is not the place ideologies are build on.

[GrandMasterFox]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

TikTok is not the place ideologies are build on.

Tiktok has been around for less than a decade, so I think that's too early to call that.

If I had to put money, I'd actually bet against that.

It's generally been documented that various things like Isis, QAnon etc do their recruiting mostly through social media.

It's a way for people to:
1) Target the very specific demographic that they want.
2) To have access to said influenced people without any outside interference or knowledge
3) To instantly give you access to an entire mob of like minded people

Those are pretty much the basis of any cult in the making.

[The Great Zaganza]

the key feature of a Cult is that it can control the information flow to its followers.
TikTok is too random for that.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

the key feature of a Cult is that it can control the information flow to its followers.
TikTok is too random for that.

It's anything but random - and that's without going into the possibility of Chinese state involvement CT land - I'd say it's got some of the best "engagement" algorithms in the industry. It very much knows who it is targeting and with what.

[GrandMasterFox]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

the key feature of a Cult is that it can control the information flow to its followers.
TikTok is too random for that.

Literally the opposite.
People don't just absorb everything that's available to them.
They go specifically to see the information they want to see.


There is no need to prevent access to information from a person when he is just willing to put his fingers in his ears and not look at anything else.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I think it's a lot easier and much better for the future to teach good critical thinking skills than going authoritarian.

You are wrong. Going authoritarian is very easy when you are already authoritarian. Ranting about 'kids these days' and trying to ban them from stuff is so easy you don't even have to think about it.

Teaching critical thinking skills is a lot harder, especially when you don't have any yourself. It's also hazardous. Next thing you know they'll be questioning the BS you have been feeding them. That's not better, it's worse!

Imagine a whole generation of kids being skeptical about religion, trickle-down economics and greed being good. Imagine them thinking maybe the scientists aren't lying about global warming, or that everything isn't black and white and us vs them. It would be a disaster!

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Two, you can't keep children off of social media without getting rid of social media. Huge First Amendment concerns there.

The government cannot accomplish that. But parents can, and should.

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Three, let's effing teach the critical thinking skills instead of turning into NAZIs.

Nice idea. Nobody really knows how to do that at scale. Our schools are certainly failing to do that right now.

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Four, you can't eliminate the social media.

I don't think I suggested that as an option. Lots that could be done to reign it in, though.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Brainster

It's anti-American and anti-Israel. Of course young leftists are going to swoon over it.

You're confusing sane people with republicans again.

[Venom]

You know Jeffrey Epstein really cared about the environment and long-term human survival. What the media didn't teach you...