[Merged] FIXED. Why I don't vote for Republicans for Congress or the Senate. - Page 2

acbytesla · 20th November 2023, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

Sure, but as long as those power brokers are in a minority that can win only by empowering the crazies (or think they are), they are also substantially responsible for the empowerment of their craziness. I am not in favor of actually imprisoning people for relatively nebulous ideological and associational sins, but I'm quite ready not to vote for them. Even relatively sane old-line Republicans must take some responsibility for the monster if they cannot let go. A small handful of them have demonstrated principle by abandoning the party that forsook them, but too few are willing to accept the risk. Among the very few I'm happy to say two are from the two states I've lived in most of my life. Jim Jeffords in Vermont, and Lowell Weicker in Connecticut.

But helping the crazies in the end doesn't help the rich. The US prospers because of its stability and its mostly open and fair market system. The open corruption and instability of the rabble rousers helps almost no one. Not even the rich. Surely college educated wealthy individuals can see this. Can't they?

sackett · 20th November 2023, 12:15 PM

It's simple enough. The Republicans of today are too dangerous to put into any public office. They've long attracted, rewarded, and retained reactionaries and worse. The bosses see their best opportunities residing in Republican control of state legislatures and of Congress; and the bosses invest in the party that's most corruptible.

I said, "reactionaries and worse." I wish MAGA and Trumpfism were the only bad features of the GOP, but of course they aren't. We've talked about the Republicans' nihilism and regressiveism, that is, their destructive yearnings. Those are real, strong, enjoyable emotions. The moment you give that kind of republican authority, he at once thinks it's power, and he'll try to indulge himself -- gleefully, cynically, and with no.concern whatever for consequences.

I'm overstating the case, aren't I?

Random · 20th November 2023, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

But helping the crazies in the end doesn't help the rich. The US prospers because of its stability and its mostly open and fair market system. The open corruption and instability of the rabble rousers helps almost no one. Not even the rich. Surely college educated wealthy individuals can see this. Can't they?

The wealthy can generally use their wealth to protect themselves from the consequences of the corruption and instability of the rabble rousers. If things are bad enough that they can't, then it is time to hop in the coach and gallop away to more stable climes, where they can start the whole thing up again.

History is littered with examples of rich people who didn't time their escape right...

bruto · 20th November 2023, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

But helping the crazies in the end doesn't help the rich. The US prospers because of its stability and its mostly open and fair market system. The open corruption and instability of the rabble rousers helps almost no one. Not even the rich. Surely college educated wealthy individuals can see this. Can't they?

Maybe not, but that does not stop them from paying more for their victory than it's worth, or for making the all-too-common mistake of presuming that once the monster of their choice is in power he will behave and listen to them. Useful idiots never see themselves in that role.

Donal · 20th November 2023, 01:54 PM

Survival of the Richest goes into this. Whether its a bunker in New Zealand, a compound in New Jersey, a platform in the ocean, or a colony Mars, all of these self declared "self-made men" can't seem to grasp how dependent they are on the very society they are trying to bleed dry then escape from.

bruto · 20th November 2023, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Random

The wealthy can generally use their wealth to protect themselves from the consequences of the corruption and instability of the rabble rousers. If things are bad enough that they can't, then it is time to hop in the coach and gallop away to more stable climes, where they can start the whole thing up again.

History is littered with examples of rich people who didn't time their escape right...

That last bit always puts me in mind of the old Oyster Band song....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

How can you use a thousand pairs of shoes?
When you got those walking blues,
Just one pair had to do...

Random · 20th November 2023, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Donal

Survival of the Richest goes into this. Whether its a bunker in New Zealand, a compound in New Jersey, a platform in the ocean, or a colony Mars, all of these self declared "self-made men" can't seem to grasp how dependent they are on the very society they are trying to bleed dry then escape from.

Posting now to avoid the rush...

https://angryflower.com/348.html

Dr. Keith · 20th November 2023, 11:46 PM

I was on a call where a business leader was talking to investors about the future of the business and mentioned his hope that we might get a change in the White House to a more business friendly administration and I was so happy I was on mute. Does Trump really sound like he cares about business? Does anyone in the GOP really care about business?

My rep, Chip Roy, has recently hit the mail on the head in this regard. It is why I will never vote for him.

acbytesla · 21st November 2023, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I was on a call where a business leader was talking to investors about the future of the business and mentioned his hope that we might get a change in the White House to a more business friendly administration and I was so happy I was on mute. Does Trump really sound like he cares about business? Does anyone in the GOP really care about business?

My rep, Chip Roy, has recently hit the mail on the head in this regard. It is why I will never vote for him.

I always wonder what they mean by this. What does "business friendly mean? That they can pollute the environment at will? That they can pay their employees as little as they can? That they are free to defraud consumers or investors? That they can cheat on their taxes? Or they don't have to pay any taxes?

Donal · 21st November 2023, 08:03 AM

They think "business" comes from tax cuts and no regulations rather than a functional society that provides an infrastructure and capable labor force and consumer base. Reaganomics has been one of the most destructive forces in American history.

ahhell · 21st November 2023, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

IMV, the reasons are most important. I like to see if people can articulate why they support their voting choices. Are they informed or do they just think they are? It has always seemed to me that most people do a poor job of explaining it.

I very much appreciate when committed Republicans telling me why and it is something I can relate to. Why my neighbor loves Trump makes absolutely no sense. The guy doesn't have a pot to piss in. Lives on a fixed income and still is a MAGA Republican.

That's mostly because in most things, most of us are just rationalizing the decisions we made for mostly irrational reasons rather than thinking rationally and coming a conclusion based on evidence. Now, these days its a lot easier to rationalize voting Dem than Rep, still doesn't change anything about how people actually come to decisions. Lots of research showing that. Wholes books about that research too.

A more interesting thread would be why are you going to vote for a republican but it would basically become this anyway, a bunch of folks explaining why Reps are evil or suckers. Perhaps a thread about why you are going to vote for a Dem but excluding because anything related to the Reps being worse.

acbytesla · 21st November 2023, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

That's mostly because in most things, most of us are just rationalizing the decisions we made for mostly irrational reasons rather than thinking rationally and coming a conclusion based on evidence. Now, these days its a lot easier to rationalize voting Dem than Rep, still doesn't change anything about how people actually come to decisions. Lots of research showing that. Wholes books about that research too.

A more interesting thread would be why are you going to vote for a republican but it would basically become this anyway, a bunch of folks explaining why Reps are evil or suckers. Perhaps a thread about why you are going to vote for a Dem but excluding because anything related to the Reps being worse.

Yeah, you're probably right.

I read a couple of books by Michael Shermer about how we believe. Basically he writes about how our brain processes ideas and how we reinforce and solidify those ideas into beliefs. Every one of us move from a point where we go "aha, we understand" to defending our understanding. The problem arises when that defense becomes intransigent.

Dr. Keith · 21st November 2023, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I always wonder what they mean by this. What does "business friendly mean? That they can pollute the environment at will? That they can pay their employees as little as they can? That they are free to defraud consumers or investors? That they can cheat on their taxes? Or they don't have to pay any taxes?

In their industry, all of the above. But more specifically definition of an employee versus contractor and not tightening environmental restrictions.

Another leader in the industry from the same company had the opposite view. He wished the feds would make it near impossible to use contractors and require the whole industry to tighten up on environmental issues. He saw that the company was better situated than most to thrive under those rules. But he would only say that over drinks, not in the office or on a call.

acbytesla · 21st November 2023, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

In their industry, all of the above. But more specifically definition of an employee versus contractor and not tightening environmental restrictions.

Another leader in the industry from the same company had the opposite view. He wished the feds would make it near impossible to use contractors and require the whole industry to tighten up on environmental issues. He saw that the company was better situated than most to thrive under those rules. But he would only say that over drinks, not in the office or on a call.

This demonstrates the inherent flaw in capitalism.

"Individual ambition serves the common good."
Adam Smith

It not only often doesn't, it often attacks the common good. Your drinking buddy wasn't interested in regulations because it serves the public, but because it serves him.

Brainster · 21st November 2023, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

My one quibble with the above is that, if memory serves, many of the regrettable changes made by the Democrats when in power, if what you're referring to is the Affordable Care Act, were in response to Republican demands insincerely raised as obstacles to their approval, and which they then voted against anyway. We can, of course, partly blame the Democrats for trusting the Republicans not to renege on the compromise.

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Democrats should have caught on to this nefarious scheme by now? At a certain point, I stopped feeling sorry for Charlie Brown when Lucy pulled the ball away from him.

bruto · 21st November 2023, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Democrats should have caught on to this nefarious scheme by now? At a certain point, I stopped feeling sorry for Charlie Brown when Lucy pulled the ball away from him.

I thought much the same at the passage of Obamacare. But I also can't pretend to be a politician, and thus am possibly more free to make my impolitic sentiments known. I wish more people would stand up and call crooks, thieves, fools and liars exactly what they are.

Donal · 22nd November 2023, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Democrats should have caught on to this nefarious scheme by now? At a certain point, I stopped feeling sorry for Charlie Brown when Lucy pulled the ball away from him.

You can do both. Obviously, Charlie Brown is either dumb or complicit in Lucy's misdeeds. But, Lucy is still a self involved sociopath who engages in violence for pleasure, which is way worse.

ahhell · 22nd November 2023, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Donal

You can do both. Obviously, Charlie Brown is either dumb or complicit in Lucy's misdeeds. But, Lucy is still a self involved sociopath who engages in violence for pleasure, which is way worse.

This is a solid metaphor really.

20th November 2023, 11:50 AM	#41
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,881	Originally Posted by bruto Sure, but as long as those power brokers are in a minority that can win only by empowering the crazies (or think they are), they are also substantially responsible for the empowerment of their craziness. I am not in favor of actually imprisoning people for relatively nebulous ideological and associational sins, but I'm quite ready not to vote for them. Even relatively sane old-line Republicans must take some responsibility for the monster if they cannot let go. A small handful of them have demonstrated principle by abandoning the party that forsook them, but too few are willing to accept the risk. Among the very few I'm happy to say two are from the two states I've lived in most of my life. Jim Jeffords in Vermont, and Lowell Weicker in Connecticut. But helping the crazies in the end doesn't help the rich. The US prospers because of its stability and its mostly open and fair market system. The open corruption and instability of the rabble rousers helps almost no one. Not even the rich. Surely college educated wealthy individuals can see this. Can't they?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

20th November 2023, 12:15 PM	#42
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,696	It's simple enough. The Republicans of today are too dangerous to put into any public office. They've long attracted, rewarded, and retained reactionaries and worse. The bosses see their best opportunities residing in Republican control of state legislatures and of Congress; and the bosses invest in the party that's most corruptible. I said, "reactionaries and worse." I wish MAGA and Trumpfism were the only bad features of the GOP, but of course they aren't. We've talked about the Republicans' nihilism and regressiveism, that is, their destructive yearnings. Those are real, strong, enjoyable emotions. The moment you give that kind of republican authority, he at once thinks it's power, and he'll try to indulge himself -- gleefully, cynically, and with no.concern whatever for consequences. I'm overstating the case, aren't I?
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

20th November 2023, 01:18 PM	#43
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,658	Originally Posted by acbytesla But helping the crazies in the end doesn't help the rich. The US prospers because of its stability and its mostly open and fair market system. The open corruption and instability of the rabble rousers helps almost no one. Not even the rich. Surely college educated wealthy individuals can see this. Can't they? The wealthy can generally use their wealth to protect themselves from the consequences of the corruption and instability of the rabble rousers. If things are bad enough that they can't, then it is time to hop in the coach and gallop away to more stable climes, where they can start the whole thing up again. History is littered with examples of rich people who didn't time their escape right...
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,658	__________________ The road to Fascism is paved with people saying, "You're overreacting!".

20th November 2023, 01:47 PM	#44
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 35,525	Originally Posted by acbytesla But helping the crazies in the end doesn't help the rich. The US prospers because of its stability and its mostly open and fair market system. The open corruption and instability of the rabble rousers helps almost no one. Not even the rich. Surely college educated wealthy individuals can see this. Can't they? Maybe not, but that does not stop them from paying more for their victory than it's worth, or for making the all-too-common mistake of presuming that once the monster of their choice is in power he will behave and listen to them. Useful idiots never see themselves in that role.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

20th November 2023, 01:54 PM	#45
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,093	Survival of the Richest goes into this. Whether its a bunker in New Zealand, a compound in New Jersey, a platform in the ocean, or a colony Mars, all of these self declared "self-made men" can't seem to grasp how dependent they are on the very society they are trying to bleed dry then escape from.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,093	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

20th November 2023, 04:16 PM	#47
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,658	Originally Posted by Donal Survival of the Richest goes into this. Whether its a bunker in New Zealand, a compound in New Jersey, a platform in the ocean, or a colony Mars, all of these self declared "self-made men" can't seem to grasp how dependent they are on the very society they are trying to bleed dry then escape from. Posting now to avoid the rush... https://angryflower.com/348.html
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,658	__________________ The road to Fascism is paved with people saying, "You're overreacting!".

20th November 2023, 11:46 PM	#48
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 25,723	I was on a call where a business leader was talking to investors about the future of the business and mentioned his hope that we might get a change in the White House to a more business friendly administration and I was so happy I was on mute. Does Trump really sound like he cares about business? Does anyone in the GOP really care about business? My rep, Chip Roy, has recently hit the mail on the head in this regard. It is why I will never vote for him.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

21st November 2023, 07:59 AM	#49
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,881	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith I was on a call where a business leader was talking to investors about the future of the business and mentioned his hope that we might get a change in the White House to a more business friendly administration and I was so happy I was on mute. Does Trump really sound like he cares about business? Does anyone in the GOP really care about business? My rep, Chip Roy, has recently hit the mail on the head in this regard. It is why I will never vote for him. I always wonder what they mean by this. What does "business friendly mean? That they can pollute the environment at will? That they can pay their employees as little as they can? That they are free to defraud consumers or investors? That they can cheat on their taxes? Or they don't have to pay any taxes?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 21st November 2023 at 08:01 AM.

21st November 2023, 08:03 AM	#50
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,093	They think "business" comes from tax cuts and no regulations rather than a functional society that provides an infrastructure and capable labor force and consumer base. Reaganomics has been one of the most destructive forces in American history.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,093	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

21st November 2023, 09:13 AM	#51
ahhell Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 6,054	Originally Posted by acbytesla IMV, the reasons are most important. I like to see if people can articulate why they support their voting choices. Are they informed or do they just think they are? It has always seemed to me that most people do a poor job of explaining it. I very much appreciate when committed Republicans telling me why and it is something I can relate to. Why my neighbor loves Trump makes absolutely no sense. The guy doesn't have a pot to piss in. Lives on a fixed income and still is a MAGA Republican. That's mostly because in most things, most of us are just rationalizing the decisions we made for mostly irrational reasons rather than thinking rationally and coming a conclusion based on evidence. Now, these days its a lot easier to rationalize voting Dem than Rep, still doesn't change anything about how people actually come to decisions. Lots of research showing that. Wholes books about that research too. A more interesting thread would be why are you going to vote for a republican but it would basically become this anyway, a bunch of folks explaining why Reps are evil or suckers. Perhaps a thread about why you are going to vote for a Dem but excluding because anything related to the Reps being worse.
ahhell Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 6,054	Last edited by ahhell; 21st November 2023 at 09:15 AM.

21st November 2023, 10:25 AM	#52
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,881	Originally Posted by ahhell That's mostly because in most things, most of us are just rationalizing the decisions we made for mostly irrational reasons rather than thinking rationally and coming a conclusion based on evidence. Now, these days its a lot easier to rationalize voting Dem than Rep, still doesn't change anything about how people actually come to decisions. Lots of research showing that. Wholes books about that research too. A more interesting thread would be why are you going to vote for a republican but it would basically become this anyway, a bunch of folks explaining why Reps are evil or suckers. Perhaps a thread about why you are going to vote for a Dem but excluding because anything related to the Reps being worse. Yeah, you're probably right. I read a couple of books by Michael Shermer about how we believe. Basically he writes about how our brain processes ideas and how we reinforce and solidify those ideas into beliefs. Every one of us move from a point where we go "aha, we understand" to defending our understanding. The problem arises when that defense becomes intransigent.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

21st November 2023, 12:50 PM	#53
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 25,723	Originally Posted by acbytesla I always wonder what they mean by this. What does "business friendly mean? That they can pollute the environment at will? That they can pay their employees as little as they can? That they are free to defraud consumers or investors? That they can cheat on their taxes? Or they don't have to pay any taxes? In their industry, all of the above. But more specifically definition of an employee versus contractor and not tightening environmental restrictions. Another leader in the industry from the same company had the opposite view. He wished the feds would make it near impossible to use contractors and require the whole industry to tighten up on environmental issues. He saw that the company was better situated than most to thrive under those rules. But he would only say that over drinks, not in the office or on a call.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

21st November 2023, 01:16 PM	#54
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,881	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith In their industry, all of the above. But more specifically definition of an employee versus contractor and not tightening environmental restrictions. Another leader in the industry from the same company had the opposite view. He wished the feds would make it near impossible to use contractors and require the whole industry to tighten up on environmental issues. He saw that the company was better situated than most to thrive under those rules. But he would only say that over drinks, not in the office or on a call. This demonstrates the inherent flaw in capitalism. "Individual ambition serves the common good." Adam Smith It not only often doesn't, it often attacks the common good. Your drinking buddy wasn't interested in regulations because it serves the public, but because it serves him.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 21st November 2023 at 01:25 PM.

21st November 2023, 05:34 PM	#55
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 20,303	Originally Posted by bruto My one quibble with the above is that, if memory serves, many of the regrettable changes made by the Democrats when in power, if what you're referring to is the Affordable Care Act, were in response to Republican demands insincerely raised as obstacles to their approval, and which they then voted against anyway. We can, of course, partly blame the Democrats for trusting the Republicans not to renege on the compromise. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Democrats should have caught on to this nefarious scheme by now? At a certain point, I stopped feeling sorry for Charlie Brown when Lucy pulled the ball away from him.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

21st November 2023, 06:10 PM	#56
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 35,525	Originally Posted by Brainster Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Democrats should have caught on to this nefarious scheme by now? At a certain point, I stopped feeling sorry for Charlie Brown when Lucy pulled the ball away from him. I thought much the same at the passage of Obamacare. But I also can't pretend to be a politician, and thus am possibly more free to make my impolitic sentiments known. I wish more people would stand up and call crooks, thieves, fools and liars exactly what they are.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

22nd November 2023, 07:02 AM	#57
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,093	Originally Posted by Brainster Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the Democrats should have caught on to this nefarious scheme by now? At a certain point, I stopped feeling sorry for Charlie Brown when Lucy pulled the ball away from him. You can do both. Obviously, Charlie Brown is either dumb or complicit in Lucy's misdeeds. But, Lucy is still a self involved sociopath who engages in violence for pleasure, which is way worse.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,093	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

22nd November 2023, 09:00 AM	#58
ahhell Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 6,054	Originally Posted by Donal You can do both. Obviously, Charlie Brown is either dumb or complicit in Lucy's misdeeds. But, Lucy is still a self involved sociopath who engages in violence for pleasure, which is way worse. This is a solid metaphor really.
ahhell Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 6,054