Race Fraud

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Darat

We also have her cousins and uncles denying her origin story. This fraud is clear cut. I can even give her the benefit of the doubt as to why she started telling tall tales about her origins. It does seem thanks to the letter from one of her uncles that the "Indian" label origins were perhaps from press agencies (what we would call PR agencies today) stories (which did back then invent fictitious histories - you only have to look at the stories they created for many of the stars of Hollywood to see this "creativity" aka lying in action.
However she has to account for how her story changed over the years before settling on one origin story.

Wait, so Buffy Sainte-Marie is a documented Italian-American and not a Native-American. I am not sure it is 'race fraud' as she was a naturally talented singer-songwriter who made great records. I never even gave a thought to her ethnicity. Even if she was camping it up a bit as a Native American I would say that was more 'race fantasy' than race fraud, as her fame and fortune came from her voice. The 'race fraud exposure' seems to be partly based on familial rancour. Her niece doesn't like that Buffy called her brother, Heidi's dad, a childhood sexual abuser and sent a threatening letter to him when he told a producer that his sister, Buffy, was no way Native American. Her uncle was upset by some newspaper's claims and went to the newspaper in question in person to say Buffy had never smoked or taken codeine and no way was she Native American. I mean, this reads like someone scared of what the neighbours will think. How does he know Buffy never smoked or took codeine? As for the newspapers relating various accounts of Buffy's supposed ethnic Native Indian ancestry, it could well be that it had nothing to do with Buffy, but more to do with gossip and hearsay outside of Buffy's control, as she says. So because Buffy looked like she was Native American, she fantasized that perhaps she was, saw a story about the Piapot First Nation and fantasized she was adopted from there. It is a pity her parents are no longer alive to give their side of the story, bearing in mind a lot of stuff was a great stigma then, which it is not now.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

The birth certificate says that she was born at a hospital (New Eng. San. & Hosp.) and is signed by the attending doctor.

i think that the CBC documentary pretty conclusively shows that Buffy is not an American "Indian".

How and why she got to the point of believing that she is is a very interesting question and "What It All Means" is certainly another.

To a Canadian with a knowledge of our history I can start by saying, "Oh. No. Not again". Vide the previous contender for pretender, Grey Owl^WP.

Quote:

Doubts about Grey Owl's supposed First Nation identity had been circulating and stories were published immediately after his death. The North Bay Nugget newspaper ran the first exposé the day of his death, a story which they had been holding for three years. This was followed up by international news organisations, such as The Times. His publisher Lovat Dickson tried to prove Belaney's claimed identity, but had to admit that his friend had lied to him. His popularity and support for his causes led The Ottawa Citizen to conclude, "Of course, the value of his work is not jeopardized. His attainments as a writer and naturalist will survive." This opinion was widely shared in the UK national press.

Grey Owl's reputation does seem to have survived his "outing" as a "Indian"" (maybe because it happened after his death?) and I'll be interested to see how Beverly Jean makes out.

[Vixen]

Well, of course, Neil Young is another singer-songwriter folk musician who relies heavily on Native-Canadian memes, literally dozens of songs relating to the topic. For example, 'Broken Arrow'. I did wonder if he had Native-Canadian ancestry but he can hardly claim it, given his dad was a well-known author and his mother nothing exotic, either.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Wait, so Buffy Sainte-Marie is a documented Italian-American and not a Native-American. I am not sure it is 'race fraud' as she was a naturally talented singer-songwriter who made great records. I never even gave a thought to her ethnicity.

Dude! Being Native American was part of her entire persona. You have to separate out your own perceptions from reality.

Similarly, Jonny Depp is a Pretindian.

[varwoche]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Wait, so Buffy Sainte-Marie is a documented Italian-American and not a Native-American. I am not sure it is 'race fraud' as she was a naturally talented singer-songwriter who made great records....

What in the name of Dog does one have to do with the other? (Spoiler: nothing) It's as if you’re playing Mad Libs.

[Puppycow]

Hint: she's not accused of being talentless.

What the CBC article does say (please read it) is that:

Quote:

She’s also the recipient of numerous Indigenous music awards, including four Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards, two Aboriginal Peoples’ Choice Music Awards, four Junos designated for Indigenous people and four Indigenous lifetime achievement awards. .

These are all awards that are supposed to be reserved for indigenous people. She has also received many other awards that are not reserved for indigenous people, fwiw.

Quote:

Sainte-Marie’s story fits an all-too-familiar pattern, said Métis lawyer Jean Teillet of Vancouver.

She said that for decades, non-Indigenous people have been falsely claiming Indigenous ancestry and using those claims to take opportunities and honours for themselves that were created for genuine First Nations, Métis and Inuit people.

She points to high-profile examples such as author Joseph Boyden, former judge Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond and professor Carrie Bourassa.

“They’ve all become stars in their field,” said Teillet, who in 2022 completed a comprehensive study called Indigenous Identity Fraud for the University of Saskatchewan.

“They’re taking that opportunity from a real Indigenous person…. It’s prestige, it’s money, it’s grants and awards and positions and work that they would never have gotten otherwise,” she said.

[Puppycow]

Oh, here's one other thing I wanted to highlight from the CBC story:

Quote:

Buffy Sainte-Marie: An Authorized Biography, written by CBC Music associate producer Andrea Warner in collaboration with Sainte-Marie in 2018, outlines a variety of stories Sainte-Marie says she heard as a child.

“She didn’t know who she was or where she came from,” the biography says.

“I was told that I was adopted. I was told that I was just born ‘on the wrong side of the blanket.’ In other words, one of my parents was my parent and one wasn’t. I was told that we were part-Indian, but nobody knew anything about it,” she is quoted as saying.

Even if we didn't have the birth certificate, the above seems very suspicious to me.
It's as if she doesn't want to be pinned down to any particular narrative. "She didn’t know who she was or where she came from" is contradictory to knowing that she was born on a certain reservation in Saskatchewan. They cannot both be true. Then there's the use of the passive voice "I was told" (by whom?) either that she was adopted or that she was related by blood to only one of her two parents. Well, again these seem to be mutually exclusive narratives, and it's also hard to believe that someone would tell this to a child even if it were true. Further, "I was told that we were part-Indian, but nobody knew anything about it" is again a contradiction. How can one "know" an alleged fact and at the same time not know anything about it? Anyway, it all has the feel of someone who just wants to change the topic to something else, and also doesn't want to be pinned down to any particular story. "I don't know how I know, I just know."

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Wait, so Buffy Sainte-Marie is a documented Italian-American and not a Native-American. I am not sure it is 'race fraud' as she was a naturally talented singer-songwriter who made great records.
...snip...

She made up an ever-changing background of belonging to different native American tribes over many decades before settling on one particular tribe located in modern Canada, despite being born in the USA of USA parents - how isn't that "race fraud"? And of course she knew she hadn't been adopted.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Darat

She made up an ever-changing background of belonging to different native American tribes over many decades before settling on one particular tribe located in modern Canada, despite being born in the USA of USA parents - how isn't that "race fraud"? And of course she knew she hadn't been adopted.

Maybe she was on a personal quest for belonging that became entangled in her identity. I get that she is not the Native-American many people believed her to be but I still want to give her the benefit of a doubt. I bought her records because I liked her stuff not because of any costume playing. I would now like to hear her side of the story in response to the public (and somewhat cruel IMV) denouncement of her by some bitter sounding lawyer and her jealous relatives.

'Oh yes, I'm guuuurn-nna be a country girl agaaain,
with an old brown dog and big front porch
and rabbits in the pen,
I tell you, all the lights on Broadway don't amount to an acre green
And I'm gonna be a country girl again' ~ Buffy Sainte-Marie

You rock, Buffy.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Maybe she was on a personal quest for belonging that became entangled in her identity. I get that she is not the Native-American many people believed her to be ...snip...

Nope she is not the native American she told people she was. Very different things.

[varwoche]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I get that she is not the Native-American many people believed her to be ...

Better late than never I suppose.

Quote:

...but I still want to give her the benefit of a doubt.

Benefit of what doubt? Even unabashed fans with little regard for facts (e.g. you) have come around.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by novaphile

Is it worth mentioning that Pennsylvania Dutch, were actually German?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch

Heck, you cannot even get people to realize that just because you are PA Dutch doesn’t mean you’re Amish.

[TragicMonkey]

What I don't get is in these cases how the person doing it can possibly derive satisfaction from it. Unless they're crazy and actually believe their own lies, at least they know they're not whatever they're claiming. Wouldn't that make all the praise and rewards feel terrible instead of good? Wouldn't they be spending every moment in dread of possible exposure as a fraud? I would expect that to suck the joy right out of whatever they're getting out of it.

(Unless it's a direct and simple con to get money, in which case they wouldn't care about anything else. Which is bad, of course, but sane. Fraud for the sake of...what? Attention? seems insane.)

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

What I don't get is in these cases how the person doing it can possibly derive satisfaction from it. Unless they're crazy and actually believe their own lies, at least they know they're not whatever they're claiming. Wouldn't that make all the praise and rewards feel terrible instead of good? Wouldn't they be spending every moment in dread of possible exposure as a fraud? I would expect that to suck the joy right out of whatever they're getting out of it.

(Unless it's a direct and simple con to get money, in which case they wouldn't care about anything else. Which is bad, of course, but sane. Fraud for the sake of...what? Attention? seems insane.)

Like I and others have said, there is certain social benefit to being part native, I think it was probably especially true in the 70s folk scene. I'm sure nothing clear cut or tangible. I also get the sensitivity to this sort of thing that a lot of Native folks have. There's a long history of white folks pretending to be indians for movies in what was basically ministrelesque portrayal. Its also not surprising to me that this most commonly faux Indians rather than most other ethnicites.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Lasted news.
Buffy Sainte-Marie pushes back against CBC investigation contradicting claims to Indigenous ancestry

Quote:

The iconic singer, songwriter and activist says the story by CBC's The Fifth Estate was full of mistakes and omissions. In her first public statement since it was published on Oct. 27, Sainte-Marie calls the story an attack on her character, life and legacy.

"Being an 'Indian' has little to do with sperm tracking and colonial record keeping: it has to do with community, culture, knowledge, teachings, who claims you, who you love, who loves you and who's your family," said Sainte-Marie, 82, in a written statement to The Canadian Press.

And I'm a teakettle.

[theprestige]

There's gotta be a difference between getting formally adopted into a tribe, and being accepted as one of the tribe because the tribe believes your lies about your ancestry.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

And I'm a teakettle.

Ah, then in the songs of your people here is your handle, here is your spout?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Ah, then in the songs of your people here is your handle, here is your spout?

"Being a 'teakettle' has little to do with leaf content and tea-house inventories: it has to do with community, culture, knowledge, teachings, who claims you, who you love, who loves you and who's your tea set," said Gord_in_Toronto, 82, in a unwritten statement to The Canadian Press. "

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

"Being a 'teakettle' has little to do with leaf content and tea-house inventories: it has to do with community, culture, knowledge, teachings, who claims you, who you love, who loves you and who's your tea set," said Gord_in_Toronto, 82, in a unwritten statement to The Canadian Press. "

"Well, I never suspected he wasn't a teakettle," said one long-time fan, "because he actually is short and stout."

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

"Well, I never suspected he wasn't a teakettle," said one long-time fan, "because he actually is short and stout."

And my mother was a hamster, and my father smelt of elderberries.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

[a_unique_person]

If there is one thing worse than racism it is trace fraud. That really makes my blood boil. It is so outrageously evil. It is much worse than slavery ever was. A million times worse.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by theprestige

There's gotta be a difference between getting formally adopted into a tribe, and being accepted as one of the tribe because the tribe believes your lies about your ancestry.

Yeah the former is a honour, the latter is dishonourable.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by theprestige

There's gotta be a difference between getting formally adopted into a tribe, and being accepted as one of the tribe because the tribe believes your lies about your ancestry.

I get that maybe Buffy St.Marie should have made it clear that she regarded herself as an honorary Native American. But identity is a highly personal thing. It is not clear that she set out to 'defraud' anyone but having been a high achiever in her field was inspired to do it some more, just as you had all these ex-public schoolboys pretending to be cockney working class punks and rockers, or other type of cos-play, such as Adam Ant who also exploited the 'Red Indian' meme and dressed up in all manner of different costumes, such as swashbuckling pirates and princes regent. Why is Buffy singled out? I mean, the American Indian culture is an immensely romantic one with the wonderful embroidery, bare-chested horse-riding with abdominal six-packs (which Putin would die for) drumming and war dances.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Native American is romantic. Being a teakettle is not. (There is tea culture, too.)

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I get that maybe Buffy St.Marie should have made it clear that she regarded herself as an honorary Native American. But identity is a highly personal thing. It is not clear that she set out to 'defraud' anyone ...snip...

Her claims were not about an ethereal "identity" but about the facts of her birth. She has lied since her mid-twenties about being adopted, she then made a number of different lies over a period of decades about where she was actually born, before she settled on the lie that she was adopted out of the Cree tribe in Canada.

This is not about a claimed "identity" but about the facts of her birth. She has lied about her birth for about 60 years, often using different lies over that time.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I get that maybe Buffy St.Marie should have made it clear that she regarded herself as an honorary Native American. But identity is a highly personal thing. It is not clear that she set out to 'defraud' anyone but having been a high achiever in her field was inspired to do it some more, just as you had all these ex-public schoolboys pretending to be cockney working class punks and rockers, or other type of cos-play, such as Adam Ant who also exploited the 'Red Indian' meme and dressed up in all manner of different costumes, such as swashbuckling pirates and princes regent. Why is Buffy singled out? I mean, the American Indian culture is an immensely romantic one with the wonderful embroidery, bare-chested horse-riding with abdominal six-packs (which Putin would die for) drumming and war dances.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Native American is romantic. Being a teakettle is not. (There is tea culture, too.)

You anti-teakettlists are all alike. Unable to see the intrinsic beauty of teakettlism. Teakettles unite the World from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe.

[varwoche]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I get that maybe Buffy St.Marie should have made it clear that she regarded herself as an honorary Native American.

She's been lying about her racial identity for her entire adult life. Your suggestion would make sense at the point when she had yet to spin the tale. But now, "making it clear" would require confessing to her lies. Sure that's doable. But that's not the path she's taking.

Quote:

It is not clear that she set out to 'defraud' anyone...

Its quite clear actually.

Quote:

... but having been a high achiever in her field...

It's odd that you keep falling back on her achievements, as if that justifies her fraudulence.

Quote:

...just as you had all these ex-public schoolboys pretending to be cockney working class punks and rockers, or other type of cos-play

I don't know how it works in Canada. But in the US, native Americans are provided certain benefits, and they can be substantial. Quite unlike cockney status.

It should go without saying that conflating cos-play with racial fraud is flat-out inane.

Quote:

such as Adam Ant who also exploited the 'Red Indian' meme and dressed up in all manner of different costumes

If he falsely claimed n-a ancestory, as has Buffy, then he too is a pretendian.

Quote:

Why is Buffy singled out?

She isn't any more so than the other pretendians referenced in this thread. (Granted, the convo about Buffy is going on longer, but that's because of you.)

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

You anti-teakettlists are all alike. Unable to see the intrinsic beauty of teakettlism. Teakettles unite the World from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe.

Uh-oh! He's getting all steamed up! Quick, somebody tip him over and pour him out!!!

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Uh-oh! He's getting all steamed up! Quick, somebody tip him over and pour him out!!!

No. No. Please just leaf me alone.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

No. No. Please just leaf me alone.

That was a bit strained.

[jimbob]

the jokes about teapots are starting to be a derail.

Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:jimbob

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Indeed.

Even some of your so called "Dutch" immigrants were not actually Dutch at all. For example, the so-called "Pennsylvania Dutch" are actually German - the name coming from confusion between "Dutch" and "Deutsch" .

Erm whut?

Originally Posted by novaphile

Is it worth mentioning that Pennsylvania Dutch, were actually German?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch

[theprestige]

Buffy St. Marie: I'm totally super native American y'all I pinky swear promise!

Literally Everyone: Pics or it didn't happen.

Vixen: My bad! I totally thought you were super native American. I guess I misunderstood!

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Lasted news.
Buffy Sainte-Marie pushes back against CBC investigation contradicting claims to Indigenous ancestry



And I'm a teakettle.

In that case, I'm the lovechild of Jesus and Buddha.

[varwoche]

The documentary that exposed Buffy's charade:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by varwoche

The documentary that exposed Buffy's charade:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

My brain is broken.

Every reference to "Buffy" includes "vampire slayer" in my head.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by novaphile

My brain is broken.

Every reference to "Buffy" includes "vampire slayer" in my head.

Reputedly it was also the Queen Mum's nickname when she was young: "Buffy" is occasionally a nickname for "Elizabeth" and in her case it was doubly applicable because she took great care over her fingernails. #NowYouKnow #SlayerQueen #JCPenneySale #MarlonWayansConspiracy #Robots

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The Buffy saga continues.

[url="https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/buffy-sainte-marie-website-1.7042481"Buffy Sainte-Marie's claims of Cree ancestry and birth on Sask. First Nation removed from her website[/URL]

Including:

Quote:

Acting chief of Piapot calls for DNA test
Michelle Good, an author, retired lawyer and member of the Red Pheasant Cree Nation in Saskatchewan, recently wrote a column in the Toronto Star about the controversy surrounding CBC's investigation.

However:

Quote:

Another set of claims emerged in an affidavit that was signed by one of her lawyers, Delia Opekokew, on Oct. 25, two days before CBC published its investigation.

Opekokew is Cree and a longtime friend of Sainte-Marie. The Toronto lawyer from the Canoe Lake First Nation was, through this affidavit, defending her in advance of CBC's investigation.

Not over yet.