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Old 17th November 2023, 10:48 AM   #1641
sackett
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Regarding WW2 analogies, perhaps HamHandedAss is better compared to Japan. Here was a weak nation with few resources, controlled by meathead fanatics who thought death was SO romantic, and who imagined that War Shinto gave them (and the browbeaten masses they controlled) a power that lesser races couldn't match no matter what. They believed so devoutly and so stubbornly that it took two nukes to change their minds.

Not a precise analogy, but look how much more rationally the Italians came to view their situation.
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Old 17th November 2023, 11:56 AM   #1642
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, it's not. The IRA never called for genocide. Hamas does. The IRA never put such a call (which, again, then never made) into practice. Hamas does. The Nazis gained power that Hamas can only dream of, but their goals are remarkably similar. The IRA's were not.



You think the precise method of execution is what matters? What kind of lunacy is that?

And invading Israel and rounding up Jews to kill is EXACTLY what we just saw. And why would they invade Egypt or Jordan for that? There's almost no Jews to be found there.



Quite the contrary. Hamas works to ensure collateral damage, which is part of why it must be destroyed completely. You know how you ensure human shields get used? By letting the tactic work. In the long run, that doesn't protect people, it actually maximizes harm. The collateral damage being done now sucks, I wish there was another way, but Hamas has made sure there isn't. And the only way to stop it is to destroy Hamas. But Hamas is responsible for that, not Israel.



Again, you have that backwards. The only way to free Palestinians who don't want Hamas from Hamas is to destroy Hamas. Letting their human shield tactics work just guarantees that those human shields will remain forever under Hamas's boot. And you manifestly do not care about that.



It wouldn't have been if we kept calling for cease fires to protect civilians. Want to know why France doesn't hold a grudge against the USA and the UK for bombing French cities in WW2, killing French civilians? Because they understood it was a necessity to get rid of the Nazis.

Want to know why the Nazis weren't replaced by other men of violence in Germany? Because they were thoroughly destroyed, and our victory over them was complete, not half-assed.
Hamas statement of principles 2017 makes it clear that they want an end to the Zionist state but not Jewish people. The genocidal ideology has been left behind. They also implicitly accept a two state solution.

Nazis were racists, Islamists are the opposite of racist.

We are not exactly sure what happened on 7 October (this does not justify terrorism), but we do know only 0.03% of those killed by Hamas (+/- other Islamist groups) were children, we do know 40% of those being killed by the IDF are children. We do know >25% of those killed on 7 October were active service military, my guess is a much smaller proportion of those killed by the IDF in Gaza are Hamas activists. Many of those active service military were police and reservist Kibbutz security who live on the Kibbutz, amongst the people (but we cannot say that because they live in normal houses like normal people that the neighbours were human shields). We do know that whilst Hamas are morally and legally responsible for all the deaths that occurred some were definitely blue on blue, Israelis killed by the IDF in defeating the Hamas attack.

To be clear this is not to defend the terrorism of Hamas the attack on the 7 October was clearly a horrendous crime. We do know some stories like the beheading of children seems to have been propaganda. Hamas should be vilified for what they did do, not for the imaginings of others.

If you imagine the French didn't bare a grudge for the damage done to france by the British (and Americans) you do not know the French. If you think all the Nazis were removed in Germany you do not know post WW2 history. Many remained in positions of authority, but what happened is that they were not occupied by an army committed to ethnic cleansing but with a clear post war plan on producing an independent and self-governing country. That is the fundamental difference. Israel wants to clear out the Palestinians (see constant posts from webfusion on this) and take over the land.

What Hamas did on 7 October was unjustifiable criminality. That does not justify the crimes against humanity and war crimes being committed by the Israeli government. My guess is like many soldiers the IDF are more humane than their commanders, I suspect that they may be sharing water with patients in the occupied Hospitals which have run out of water. I suspect the offer of 300L of fuel to power the hospital was from the soldiers on the ground sharing what they could and not from the Israeli government. My guess is many will not be happy to be watching babies die from starvation, cold, thirst.

Last edited by Planigale; 17th November 2023 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 17th November 2023, 12:02 PM   #1643
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Regarding WW2 analogies, perhaps HamHandedAss is better compared to Japan. Here was a weak nation with few resources, controlled by meathead fanatics who thought death was SO romantic, and who imagined that War Shinto gave them (and the browbeaten masses they controlled) a power that lesser races couldn't match no matter what. They believed so devoutly and so stubbornly that it took two nukes to change their minds.

Not a precise analogy, but look how much more rationally the Italians came to view their situation.
However the fundamental difference is that the occupiers had a plan of how to reconstitute an indendant nation post war. Israel does not want an independant Palestinian state no matter how democratic and liberal. Fundamentally (see posts by Web Fusion) Israel wants to push Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank in to Egypt and jordan respectively (although Israel would be happy for any other countries to take the displaced ethnically cleansed Palestinians.

ETA
Also very few of the war criminals were executed, most were allowed to get on with their lives.

Last edited by Planigale; 17th November 2023 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 17th November 2023, 12:11 PM   #1644
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Hamas statement of principles 2017 makes it clear that they want an end to the Zionist state but not Jewish people. The genocidal ideology has been left behind.
Their actions on Oct. 7 show otherwise.

Quote:
Nazis were racists, Islamists are the opposite of racist.
That's not a difference which actually matters. And there's a good argument to be made that the Nazis were racist as a result of their antisemitism, not the other way around.

Quote:
We are not exactly sure what happened on 7 October (this does not justify terrorism), but we do know only 0.03% of those killed by Hamas (+/- other Islamist groups) were children
Your math is off.

Quote:
we do know 40% of those being killed by the IDF are children.
That's what happens when you use children as human shields.

Quote:
If you imagine the French didn't bare a grudge for the damage done to france by the British (and Americans) you do not know the French. If you think all the Nazis were removed in Germany you do not know post WW2 history.
I'm sure they weren't all removed. But the Nazis as an organization with influence in Germany was successfully destroyed.

Quote:
Many remained in positions of authority, but what happened is that they were not occupied by an army committed to ethnic cleansing but with a clear post war plan on producing an independent and self-governing country.
No they weren't. They were occupied by an army with a clear plan to defeat them. The post war plan was developed post war.

Plus, there was a **** ton of ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2.

Quote:
What Hamas did on 7 October was unjustifiable criminality. That does not justify the crimes against humanity and war crimes being committed by the Israeli government.
Most of what you call "war crimes" is just war. War is nasty and brutal and terrible. It is to be avoided when possible. But Hamas made it unavoidable, not Israel. I will not blame Israel for waging war in response to war waged against them. You are.

Quote:
My guess is like many soldiers the IDF are more humane than their commanders
I have no reason to trust your uninformed guesses.
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Old 17th November 2023, 12:24 PM   #1645
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planigale posts -- Israel does not want an independant Palestinian state no matter how democratic and liberal. Fundamentally (see posts by Web Fusion) Israel wants to push Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank in to Egypt and jordan respectively (although Israel would be happy for any other countries to take the displaced ethnically cleansed Palestinians.

About half of the population of Israel certainly would be satisfied to see a NewState of Palestine that's democratic and liberal, and demilitarized (Islamic Jihadists neutralized).

Fundamentally, what I've been posting does not envision "pushing" Palestinians out of Gaza (nor the Westbank) into Egypt or Jordan. The entire idea I've been mentioning involves the opposite, actually.
Provide a refuge for the refugees. Their own State to call home.
Jordan has Palestinian refugees, as does Lebanon, Syria, and of course, Gaza.
Making a salient of N. Sinai available for PalestinianState development is fundamentally reunifying the Historical Palestinian lands in that sector. Gaza right now requires a substantial effort to reconstruct.
Israel would be happy for other countries to provide assistance towards that end.
Israel does not appear to be interested in displacing and/or ethnically-cleansing Palestinians from Gaza, and no genocide upon them is contemplated.
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Old 17th November 2023, 12:35 PM   #1646
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
planigale posts -- Israel does not want an independant Palestinian state no matter how democratic and liberal. Fundamentally (see posts by Web Fusion) Israel wants to push Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank in to Egypt and jordan respectively (although Israel would be happy for any other countries to take the displaced ethnically cleansed Palestinians.

About half of the population of Israel certainly would be satisfied to see a NewState of Palestine that's democratic and liberal, and demilitarized (Islamic Jihadists neutralized).

Fundamentally, what I've been posting does not envision "pushing" Palestinians out of Gaza (nor the Westbank) into Egypt or Jordan. The entire idea I've been mentioning involves the opposite, actually.
Provide a refuge for the refugees. Their own State to call home.
Jordan has Palestinian refugees, as does Lebanon, Syria, and of course, Gaza.
Making a salient of N. Sinai available for PalestinianState development is fundamentally reunifying the Historical Palestinian lands in that sector. Gaza right now requires a substantial effort to reconstruct.
Israel would be happy for other countries to provide assistance towards that end.
Israel does not appear to be interested in displacing and/or ethnically-cleansing Palestinians from Gaza, and no genocide upon them is contemplated.
This is far too rational for fanatical Israel haters, Iím sad to say.
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Old 17th November 2023, 12:54 PM   #1647
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is far too rational for fanatical Israel haters, Iím sad to say.
You're missing the part in his scheme where Israel ethnically cleanses the West Bank instead. Give it a repetition or two, it'll come up.
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Old 17th November 2023, 04:08 PM   #1648
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You're missing the part in his scheme where Israel ethnically cleanses the West Bank instead. Give it a repetition or two, it'll come up.
You're missing the part where the Palestinian refugees who now are in Westbank & E.Jerusalem get a chance to move into the Palestine NewState, and call it home. As refugees, they've been demanding a State that's theirs (and is Judenrein, to boot). Nowhere is it decreed from on high that Westbank is theirs.

To move, voluntarily, as a function of the International Community stepping up to solve their intractable problem by setting aside a chunk of Historical Palestinian land, is not 'ethnic cleansing' nor is it somehow a failure of them getting a proper resolution to their angst.

Westbank is going to retain a portion of Palestinian population. That's a given.
The question will be, who wants to stay and live with Israel as the sovereign entity, and who wants to re-establish their lives into the NewState, and be granted all the rights and responsibilities of being a member of the community of nations?

This war has done one important thing.
It's proven to Israelis of all persuasions that Westbank becoming an Islamic Jihadist base (which it has been turning into) cannot be allowed to happen.

Now, let's look into other alternatives, and stop repeating the same decades-old demands that aren't worth repeating. This is the one chance to fix the Palestinian refugee issue. UNRWA is toast. They are a part of the problem, not a part of the resolution of it.

Barry Shaw -- "The fifty-year record of Palestinianism is awful and reached a bloody crescendo on 7 October 2023.
This was the day that the world should have come to its senses and said, “No more!”
The two-state demand that includes westbank died that day as we saw the ultimate aims of the much-vaunted Palestinian "resistance"

Last edited by webfusion; 17th November 2023 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 18th November 2023, 02:06 AM   #1649
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Both analogies are far off the mark re the middle east.

The best way to achieve peace in Gaza is to eliminate Hamas as an effective entity. Peaceful Palestinians will remain peaceful. Whether they are grateful has no bearing.
Peaceful Palestinians, who have suffered terribly under the Israeli attacks, will support a new version of Hamas, to replace the destroyed version.
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Old 18th November 2023, 02:10 AM   #1650
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I think the analogy is quite apt in a way. The Allies in the spring of 1945 didn't really give a **** how grateful the Germans would be for ending Nazi rule, just as Israeli's currently don't give a **** how grateful Palestinians will be. Its totally unfair to peaceful Palestinians living in Gaza right now just as it was totally unfair to peaceful Germans who actually hated Hitler. This is the world as it is. Its not a fair one.
The Germans after WWII could see a better future without the Nazis. What are the prospects for Palestinians, after Hamas have been defeated? Will they see a bright future of a Palestinian nation that is prosperous and free from Israeli influence and intervention?
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Old 18th November 2023, 02:14 AM   #1651
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Peace through victory is the historical norm.
When a nation fights a terrorist organisation, stalemate and a realisation negotiation is needed, is one of the outcomes. Another is the success of the terrorist organisation, especially when it also has a political arm.

Quote:
Negotiated peace without victory is the oddity. The preconditions necessary for negotiated peace in NI don't exist with Israel/Palestine. No comparison is perfect, but Hamas is far more like the Nazi party in ideology than it is like the IRA.
The men of violence have control and Israel and Palestine are doomed to a violent future.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:01 AM   #1652
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nessie -- "Will they see a bright future of a Palestinian nation that is prosperous and free from Israeli influence and intervention? "

You're kidding around now, right?

I've provided numerous posts which outlined exactly that prosperous future. At best, they'll have a micro-nation (Nation-State) in Gaza and a salient of n.Sinai. Egypt & Israel will provide security (at tremendous costs, much of which will be borne by American taxpayers). Under no circumstances will Gaza be permitted to once again militarize.

"free from" Israeli influence and intervention? Isn't that what they're demanding? FreePalestine is their mantra. Israel has well-developed commerce and industry. Why wouldn't the NewState take advantage of that expertise and cooperate at all levels? ( Just as an aside, one of the people kidnapped by Hamas was a young man from Tanzania. He was in Israel to study and educate himself on the agro-tech and water farming that Israel excels at. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tanzani...e-felix-mtenga )

Intervention? I dare those islamic-jihadists to raise their stinkin' heads again and cause trouble for Israel.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:04 AM   #1653
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Peaceful Palestinians, who have suffered terribly under the Israeli attacks, will support a new version of Hamas, to replace the destroyed version.
I doubt it.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:55 AM   #1654
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Germans after WWII could see a better future without the Nazis. What are the prospects for Palestinians, after Hamas have been defeated? Will they see a bright future of a Palestinian nation that is prosperous and free from Israeli influence and intervention?
The complete highlight remains to be seen. They should certainly see a better future without Hamas, initially at least with many, many fewer civilian deaths due to Hamas instigated violence. There would continue to be Israeli influence and intervention for a number of years just as there was allied intervention and influence in Germany, without which the post war recovery of Germany would have taken a whole lot longer. The allies had the sense to realize that a recovered, self sufficient and prosperous Germany would be a benefit to the world. The Israeli government has the same sense re Gaza and Palestine in general. The wild card is what the very brainwashed Palestinian population will realize.
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Old 18th November 2023, 06:58 AM   #1655
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Peaceful Palestinians, who have suffered terribly under the Israeli attacks, will support a new version of Hamas, to replace the destroyed version.
Using your favorite analogy - just as the peaceful post-war Germans supported a new version of Naziism. right?
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Old 18th November 2023, 07:17 AM   #1656
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Regarding the Al-Shifa hospital revelations --

I looked at the videos being released by the media (they were given a tour of the facility).
One thing really struck me about the light weaponry that was shown.
The amount (not much) and the condition (dirty) and the ordnance all appear to be the types of things which would be part of the fighters' personal combat gear carried into battle. Vests, extra magazines, hand grenades, radios, binoculars, etc.
The hospital was involved with treating armed Hamas injured. My spidey-tingly senses tell me that those weapons were brought into the hospital by these men, and they died while there, so the hospital staff just stored them away in some locked storage rooms.
I would bet the hospital just took them off the incoming dead guys, and that's what we are seeing.
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Old 18th November 2023, 08:03 AM   #1657
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Using your favorite analogy - just as the peaceful post-war Germans supported a new version of Naziism. right?
There was a specific policy to allow Germany to prosper after WWII, after the post WWI policy of repression failed. Palestinians will be treated closer to Germans after WWI, than WWII.
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Old 18th November 2023, 08:05 AM   #1658
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The complete highlight remains to be seen. They should certainly see a better future without Hamas, initially at least with many, many fewer civilian deaths due to Hamas instigated violence. There would continue to be Israeli influence and intervention for a number of years just as there was allied intervention and influence in Germany, without which the post war recovery of Germany would have taken a whole lot longer. The allies had the sense to realize that a recovered, self sufficient and prosperous Germany would be a benefit to the world. The Israeli government has the same sense re Gaza and Palestine in general. The wild card is what the very brainwashed Palestinian population will realize.
Gazans will look at what is happening on the West Bank as their most likely post Hamas future. With Hamas in power in Gaza, Israel setters are too fearful to force Palestinians out of the homes.
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Old 18th November 2023, 08:08 AM   #1659
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Regarding the Al-Shifa hospital revelations --

I looked at the videos being released by the media (they were given a tour of the facility).
One thing really struck me about the light weaponry that was shown.
The amount (not much) and the condition (dirty) and the ordnance all appear to be the types of things which would be part of the fighters' personal combat gear carried into battle. Vests, extra magazines, hand grenades, radios, binoculars, etc.
The hospital was involved with treating armed Hamas injured. My spidey-tingly senses tell me that those weapons were brought into the hospital by these men, and they died while there, so the hospital staff just stored them away in some locked storage rooms.
I would bet the hospital just took them off the incoming dead guys, and that's what we are seeing.
Agreed. Israeli claims have again proved to be unreliable. It is one of the reasons why, internationally, support for Israel is haemorrhaging. Hamas are losing the war in Gaza, but they will be quite happy with its success internationally.
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Old 18th November 2023, 09:01 AM   #1660
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Gazans will look at what is happening on the West Bank as their most likely post Hamas future. With Hamas in power in Gaza, Israel setters are too fearful to force Palestinians out of the homes.
Israel removed its settlers from Gaza when it pulled out of that area. What makes you think they will reoccupy once this bout of fighting is over? Bear in mind that Netanyahu has explicitly said that Israel will not reoccupy Gaza.

I think it might be useful for you to consider how Israelis feel about their future too. They withdrew from Gaza, and watched as Hamas ousted Fatah, seized control, and used Gaza as a launching pad for thousands upon thousands of rockets, fired indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel, as well as attacking Egypt. From an Israeli perspective, a Palestinian area left to govern itself is a clear and present danger to Israel and Israelis. That they have said they will not reoccupy is a testament to their willingness to give the Palestinians a chance to sort their **** out, and form a government that isn't composed of fanatical terrorists.
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Old 18th November 2023, 09:11 AM   #1661
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Israel removed its settlers from Gaza when it pulled out of that area. What makes you think they will reoccupy once this bout of fighting is over? Bear in mind that Netanyahu has explicitly said that Israel will not reoccupy Gaza.

I think it might be useful for you to consider how Israelis feel about their future too. They withdrew from Gaza, and watched as Hamas ousted Fatah, seized control, and used Gaza as a launching pad for thousands upon thousands of rockets, fired indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel, as well as attacking Egypt. From an Israeli perspective, a Palestinian area left to govern itself is a clear and present danger to Israel and Israelis. That they have said they will not reoccupy is a testament to their willingness to give the Palestinians a chance to sort their **** out, and form a government that isn't composed of fanatical terrorists.
Israelis are right to feel anger at the disgusting terrorist organisation that is Hamas. Israeli government vengeance has been so brutal, that it is hard to feel much more sympathy than that.

My position is that both sides are tragically lead by disgusting men of violence, who moronically think more violence is the way. There are lost of morons here that support the violence.

My sympathise lie with normal, decent people, who just want to get on with life without men of violence fighting around them.
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Old 18th November 2023, 09:29 AM   #1662
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Regarding the Al-Shifa hospital revelations --

I looked at the videos being released by the media (they were given a tour of the facility).
One thing really struck me about the light weaponry that was shown.
The amount (not much) and the condition (dirty) and the ordnance all appear to be the types of things which would be part of the fighters' personal combat gear carried into battle. Vests, extra magazines, hand grenades, radios, binoculars, etc.
The hospital was involved with treating armed Hamas injured. My spidey-tingly senses tell me that those weapons were brought into the hospital by these men, and they died while there, so the hospital staff just stored them away in some locked storage rooms.
I would bet the hospital just took them off the incoming dead guys, and that's what we are seeing.
Ohhhh no. **** no. You don't get to yadda yadda this.

Al-Shifa hospital was Hamas headquarters. Remember?

Originally Posted by webfusion
The aid convoy had to turn around and went instead to al-Shifa hospital, where HAMAS is maintaining their H-Q.
It's why Israel was starving it for fuel and supplies. Remember? People were dying, but you were confident it was Hamas's fault because they had crazy supplies stockpiled underneath.

Originally Posted by webfusion
I can't recall where I read it, by apparently there are hundreds of thousands of liters of fuel in HAMAS tank farms, which in turn, are under al-Shifa hospital. All roads lead to to that alShifa compound, and if the Israelis get lucky, they'll locate Sinwar hiding there.
Where is the fuel? Where are the roads? Where are the tunnels, the bunkers, the rocket installations that we've been repeatedly told are there... somewhere? Is Hamas such military geniuses that overnight they managed to turn a whole headquarters and hundred of thousands of liters of fuel into a dirty collection of handheld weaponry smaller than that of the average American household? Or was the vaunted Israeli intelligence just ******* wrong and they've been terrorizing a civilian hospital for no good damned reason?

Ya think there's a chance they might also be equally ******* wrong when they've pointed to all those thousands of Palestinians the IDF has killed and said there's probably a Hamas somewhere there too? That they might just be smashing anything they can reach while yelling about finding a stranger in the alps?

(reference for people who don't get that)
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I AGREE
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Old 18th November 2023, 10:03 AM   #1663
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Ohhhh no. **** no. You don't get to yadda yadda this.

Al-Shifa hospital was Hamas headquarters. Remember?
Tunnels were discovered within the grounds (the entire hospital complex is rather large).
Rocket installations are being discovered all over Gaza as we speak. Quite massive ones, too.
And from where (and HOW?) did they obtain an MLRS M270 launcher?

Quote:
]It's why Israel was starving it for fuel and supplies. Remember? People were dying, but you were confident it was Hamas's fault because they had crazy supplies stockpiled underneath. Where is the fuel? Where are the roads? Where are the tunnels, the bunkers, the rocket installations that we've been repeatedly told are there... somewhere? Is Hamas such military geniuses that overnight they managed to turn a whole headquarters and hundred of thousands of liters of fuel into a dirty collection of handheld weaponry smaller than that of the average American household? Or was the vaunted Israeli intelligence just ******* wrong and they've been terrorizing a civilian hospital for no good damned reason?
I was confident that Gazans are understandably upset that Hamas embarked them onto this path of further despair than usual for them. The point was never the fuel, or the water, or the electricity, or the aid. The main thrust of Israel's demands has been singular and consistent throughout. Return the cadavers of Oren Shaul and Hadar Goldin, along with any other KIA IDF personnel and civilians they've been holding since 10-7. Do it now. It's outrageous this is even a point of contention here on these forums!
Israel will respond accordingly with releasing Hamas bodies that're lying in morgues, as well as the minors and female prisoners, but none of that is contingent on a pause first (lull -- Tadiyeh).
No ceasefire until the above happens.

Quote:
Ya think there's a chance they might also be equally ******* wrong when they've pointed to all those thousands of Palestinians the IDF has killed and said there's probably a Hamas somewhere there too? That they might just be smashing anything they can reach while yelling about finding a stranger in the alps?
Great video clip, apropos.

I am pretty sure there are lots of Hamas's in the rubble there, not really concerned about it.
More to come, I would venture to predict.

Moving into the South, now, probably to claim the Philadelphi Road. Watch out, as this turns into a total breach of Egypt's flimsy demarcation lines (1982) with millions of Gazans headed over to Al Arish, to buy ice-cold Cokes.
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Old 18th November 2023, 12:37 PM   #1664
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Moving into the South, now, probably to claim the Philadelphi Road. Watch out, as this turns into a total breach of Egypt's flimsy demarcation lines (1982) with millions of Gazans headed over to Al Arish, to buy ice-cold Cokes.
Whaaaat?! You mean the plan isn't to root Hamas out of the north end of Gaza and then allow the evacuees to return, maybe leave them a gift basket and a note of apology for the inconvenience? I am shocked, sir, shocked!

If we're laying predictions, I don't think they're going to push the Palestinians all the way into Egypt, much as they might like to. Israel's already pissed through all the goodwill the Hamas attack gave it and they're starting to get crap from their allies cough Biden, they're going to cut their plans and halt the advance about where it is. A new wall will be erected, South Gaza will become the new Gaza, and they'll wait for another good attack to keep going. They've murdered a few thousand people, displaced over a million, leveled entire neighborhoods, made a lotta pissed-off orphans. Hamas will be swimming in volunteers for a couple of years. An excuse will come.
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Old 19th November 2023, 06:47 AM   #1665
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People have very short memories.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...5-1e86f4a3f211

(1996) Reading this story, there's a sense of deja-Vu.

"We don't want to see any woman, or child or Lebanese civilian killed, but they are the victims of Hezbollah," Shimon Peres told reporters.
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Old 19th November 2023, 07:31 AM   #1666
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Whaaaat?! You mean the plan isn't to root Hamas out of the north end of Gaza and then allow the evacuees to return, maybe leave them a gift basket and a note of apology for the inconvenience? I am shocked, sir, shocked!

If we're laying predictions, I don't think they're going to push the Palestinians all the way into Egypt, much as they might like to. Israel's already pissed through all the goodwill the Hamas attack gave it and they're starting to get crap from their allies cough Biden, they're going to cut their plans and halt the advance about where it is. A new wall will be erected, South Gaza will become the new Gaza, and they'll wait for another good attack to keep going. They've murdered a few thousand people, displaced over a million, leveled entire neighborhoods, made a lotta pissed-off orphans. Hamas will be swimming in volunteers for a couple of years. An excuse will come.

Well to the OP, I think we're kind of seeing that, and as to be expected. There are two goals (1) Eradicate Hamas in its entirety; and (2) maybe get as many hostages back as you can, alive.

(1) Could happen and there's no possible way that another group will still eventually replace it.

(2) Possible but with backdoor diplomacy, at least some. It's not like Hamas or other proxies didn't think of these outcomes beforehand.

And a third, how the hell did nobody see 10/7 coming? Mossad or other intelligence agencies? Doesn't matter right now, because we have to remove an enemy that will be replaced, hopefully get some hostages back alive, and then we'll skirt around the issue about who was involved in this epic failure with investigations and a lengthy report in about four years after it's over. Not a time to be asking questions. You're either with us or against us.

Oh, and this will never be over.
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Old 19th November 2023, 08:03 AM   #1667
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Originally Posted by PitPat View Post
Well to the OP, I think we're kind of seeing that, and as to be expected. There are two goals (1) Eradicate Hamas in its entirety; and (2) maybe get as many hostages back as you can, alive.

(1) Could happen and there's no possible way that another group will still eventually replace it.

(2) Possible but with backdoor diplomacy, at least some. It's not like Hamas or other proxies didn't think of these outcomes beforehand.

And a third, how the hell did nobody see 10/7 coming? Mossad or other intelligence agencies? Doesn't matter right now, because we have to remove an enemy that will be replaced, hopefully get some hostages back alive, and then we'll skirt around the issue about who was involved in this epic failure with investigations and a lengthy report in about four years after it's over. Not a time to be asking questions. You're either with us or against us.

Oh, and this will never be over.
Naming names for this type of issue is never productive, except for possible public appeasement.. It was a system failure that cannot be blamed on a few named people. And if names do come out they will be scapegoats. I doubt that Mossad would be willing to expose and lose generally competent personnel based on one system failure.
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Old 19th November 2023, 08:45 AM   #1668
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Naming names for this type of issue is never productive, except for possible public appeasement.. It was a system failure that cannot be blamed on a few named people. And if names do come out they will be scapegoats. I doubt that Mossad would be willing to expose and lose generally competent personnel based on one system failure.
Not saying anything about losing competent personnel, but that's kind of more than one system failure, IMO. Like 9/11 wasn't just one system failure. More of a leadership thing while being complacent and how to allocate those competent personnel.

And yes, naming names can be productive if shown to be incompetent, or preoccupied. This kind of sounds like "Hey man, just doing what I'm told. Can't blame me. I made some noise but still want to keep my job so didn't push it that much." Effect: Maybe some of them won't be re-elected if they hold electable positions.

Call it oversimplification but I don't think it's too far off.
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Old 19th November 2023, 09:33 AM   #1669
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Tunnels were discovered within the grounds (the entire hospital complex is rather large).
Rocket installations are being discovered all over Gaza as we speak. Quite massive ones, too.
And from where (and HOW?) did they obtain an MLRS M270 launcher?



I was confident that Gazans are understandably upset that Hamas embarked them onto this path of further despair than usual for them. The point was never the fuel, or the water, or the electricity, or the aid. The main thrust of Israel's demands has been singular and consistent throughout. Return the cadavers of Oren Shaul and Hadar Goldin, along with any other KIA IDF personnel and civilians they've been holding since 10-7. Do it now. It's outrageous this is even a point of contention here on these forums!
Israel will respond accordingly with releasing Hamas bodies that're lying in morgues, as well as the minors and female prisoners, but none of that is contingent on a pause first (lull -- Tadiyeh).
No ceasefire until the above happens.



Great video clip, apropos.

I am pretty sure there are lots of Hamas's in the rubble there, not really concerned about it.
More to come, I would venture to predict.

Moving into the South, now, probably to claim the Philadelphi Road. Watch out, as this turns into a total breach of Egypt's flimsy demarcation lines (1982) with millions of Gazans headed over to Al Arish, to buy ice-cold Cokes.
I thought you were opposed to the enforced ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza and they should only move into a fully funded 'New Gaza' voluntarily?

Also seems like there will be lots of hostages and PoWs in the rubble. Not all the hostages are held by Hamas, so co-ordinating the return may not be easy. Hamas may not know exactly how many are still alive, and if dead exactly which pile of rubble they are under. My guess is Hamas is operating a cell structure with little command and control (for obvious reasons - communicatiions have been disrupted). liasion with other groups may be more difficult.
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:33 PM   #1670
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planigale, if they have logistical problems with releasing (and/or accounting for ) the entire hostage/KIA group, then why are they saying they'll release them in exchange for ... (insert latest demand here).

Israel is clearing out the riff-raff. Khan Younis is next.
Do you not recall what happened in 2008? Hamas broke through the border barrier with Egypt into n.Sinai, and half the (then-1.5 million) population of the Gaza Strip crossed that opening in the border into Egypt seeking food and supplies.
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak ordered his troops to allow crossings to alleviate the humanitarian crisis (while verifying that the Gazans did not attempt to bring weapons back into Gaza). In five days, Gazans spent some US$250 million in the North Sinai Governorate's capital of elArish alone.
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Old 19th November 2023, 12:42 PM   #1671
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BREAKING NEWS:
Hostages taken in RedSea by Gaza-supporting African terrorists.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/israe...154937570.html

25 people are on board "Galaxy Leader", and they're now being declared as hostages.
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Old 20th November 2023, 01:33 AM   #1672
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
BREAKING NEWS:
Hostages taken in RedSea by Gaza-supporting African terrorists.
It is news to me that the Houthis are ďAfricanĒ. I thought they were Iranian-backed Yemenis. But then, lots of Arabs are Africans, and I canít tell the difference.
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Old 20th November 2023, 02:36 AM   #1673
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https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/...74943501762972

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That's when the fighting breaks out, revenge, retribution, dehumanisation. Those who think there can be a solution from the violence, need to understand that there will still need to be compromise and negotiation for both sides to move on, once the fighting stops.
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Old 20th November 2023, 07:32 AM   #1674
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
It is news to me that the Houthis are “African”. I thought they were Iranian-backed Yemenis. But then, lots of Arabs are Africans, and I can’t tell the difference.
Yemen is within the Arabian peninsula. It's not connected to Africa. Africa is over thataway, across the Bab al-Mandab Strait. I misspoke, and thanks for pointing out my geographic error. (I got Yemen confused with Sudan). In this war, it helps to have a map right at hand, and a scorecard would help too.

* Iranian warning to Israel that it will soon face multiple 'fronts' and the USA should anticipate attacks, also.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bkkopldet

* Homeless puppy taken to safety by advancing troops in Gaza.
https://www.ynetnews.com/environment/article/rkdue5f4a

* Another IDF unit is in the news, as they encountered a lost cat & it was taken with them and is being rehabilitated (poor thing was a furry mess) and adopted.

* Not sure why, but the media is ignoring the animals of the Gaza Zoo.
Crocodiles, hyenas, foxes, deer and monkeys, as well as a lone ibex and a solitary wolf.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ive-2023-06-06

* Snowfall on the Hermon mountain. Nobody is going up there to ski, unfortunately.
Rockets launched from Lebanon continue to fall in that zone, as well.

* It received scant attention, but the Palestinian Parliament (Hamas' political H-Q) was blown to smithereens after being overrun by IDF forces in Gaza City.
The Palestinians are gonna need a new government anyways, so no great loss.

* IDF takes care of stranded old woman in N.Gaza

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Old 20th November 2023, 08:28 AM   #1675
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Here comes the rain. Yeccccchhhhh. Whatta mess that's gonna create in the muck and mud of Gaza.
Without electricity, the pumps and sewage handling facilities are inoperable.
Basically, Gaza will be inundated, literally with **** flowing everywhere.

(Yesterday's severe storm in Israel reached as far south as Ashdod, and spared the Gazans from the brunt)
https://www.jpost.com/environment-an...article-774140
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Old 20th November 2023, 11:40 AM   #1676
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Yemen is within the Arabian peninsula. It's not connected to Africa. Africa is over thataway, across the Bab al-Mandab Strait. I misspoke, and thanks for pointing out my geographic error. (I got Yemen confused with Sudan). In this war, it helps to have a map right at hand, and a scorecard would help too.

* Iranian warning to Israel that it will soon face multiple 'fronts' and the USA should anticipate attacks, also.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bkkopldet

* Homeless puppy taken to safety by advancing troops in Gaza.
https://www.ynetnews.com/environment/article/rkdue5f4a

* Another IDF unit is in the news, as they encountered a lost cat & it was taken with them and is being rehabilitated (poor thing was a furry mess) and adopted.

* Not sure why, but the media is ignoring the animals of the Gaza Zoo.
Crocodiles, hyenas, foxes, deer and monkeys, as well as a lone ibex and a solitary wolf.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ive-2023-06-06

* Snowfall on the Hermon mountain. Nobody is going up there to ski, unfortunately.
Rockets launched from Lebanon continue to fall in that zone, as well.

* It received scant attention, but the Palestinian Parliament (Hamas' political H-Q) was blown to smithereens after being overrun by IDF forces in Gaza City.
The Palestinians are gonna need a new government anyways, so no great loss.

* IDF takes care of stranded old woman in N.Gaza
Shame the IDF didn't provide some clean water, electricity and food to the 39 premature babies that were there when IDF occupied the hospital; only 31 survived the IDF occupation to be evacuated. But they are nice to kittens.
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Old 20th November 2023, 03:47 PM   #1677
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Shame the IDF didn't provide some clean water, electricity and food to the 39 premature babies that were there when IDF occupied the hospital; only 31 survived the IDF occupation to be evacuated. But they are nice to kittens.
Hamas sowed the wind and reaped a whirlwind. What did they, or anyone with even a basic knowledge of middle eastern history, expect? This is all on Hamas.
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Old 20th November 2023, 04:09 PM   #1678
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Shame the IDF didn't provide some clean water, electricity and food to the 39 premature babies that were there when IDF occupied the hospital; only 31 survived the IDF occupation to be evacuated. But they are nice to kittens.
You are upset that IDF arranged for evacuation of these infants?
Babies born at 25 weeks and less are at high risk of death, a long, tortuous journey through life, and disability. (we don't know the early status of those births, and what their chances of survival would have been anyway). A free supply of water, fuel, food, or power, especially in time of open warfare, is not logical.

However, Israel is trying to alleviate some of that, and has facilitated several international efforts in order to get aid (food and medical), as well as starting to deliver fuel, and water (for free). The electric company in Israel doesn't want to let Gaza have free power, and IEC is asking for payment. Whatta concept! They send a bill, it's ignored, and when they shut the circuit off, it's the electric company to blame?

You know what's really a shame? That Hamas chose to attack Israel resulting in the worst single-day death toll of Jews since the middle of the last century.
All the 12,000 + deaths in Gaza are the full responsibility of Hamas for pushing the envelope and seeing this whole thing explode in their faces.

And the hostage 'deal' that's being talked about? Probably a case of 'Too little, Too late' on the part of Hamas, and Israeli emergency war cabinet leaders are sitting there and saying to themselves, we'll just keep doing what we're doing and let the chips fall where they may.
If the Hamas will arrange a release of cadavers and as many hostages as they can account for, then Israel will react accordingly with a transfer of Palestinians we hold (dead and alive) back into Gaza. But there's not going to be a ceasefire.
On the contrary, IDF forces are gaining ground, eliminating top Hamas commanders daily, and capturing even more Hamas guys along the way. (as well as gathering up Hamas terrorists in raids across the westbank, by the hundreds).

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Old 21st November 2023, 01:17 AM   #1679
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Hamas sowed the wind and reaped a whirlwind. What did they, or anyone with even a basic knowledge of middle eastern history, expect? This is all on Hamas.
True. You should add that Israel is also going to reap the whirlwind, as it loses a lot of international support over its behaviour.
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Old 21st November 2023, 01:23 AM   #1680
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Yemen is within the Arabian peninsula. It's not connected to Africa. Africa is over thataway, across the Bab al-Mandab Strait. I misspoke, and thanks for pointing out my geographic error. (I got Yemen confused with Sudan). In this war, it helps to have a map right at hand, and a scorecard would help too.
I was honestly thinking that you might have information that the Houthis were employing mercenaries from the Somalian Al-Shabab, which would be unprecedented, because the Houthis are Shia, and Al-Shabab is Sunni.
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