Race Fraud - Page 2

Rolfe · 1st October 2022, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

IMO anyone can be part of that ethno-cultural group so long as they have lived within that culture and shared the experience of people within that culture. If you grew up in a Scottish community and shared the same experiences as all the Scottish people around you, you should be considered Scottish regardless of your DNA. Conversely someone who hasn't lived that life an hasn't shared those experiences should probably refrain from claiming that culture, even if they share DNA with it, because genetic differences between groups of humans is to small to be relevant.

Not arguing with that. My newsagent is Scottish, despite having 100% Pakistani genetics.

Donald Trump isn't. So there. (Although the comedy sketch on BBC Alba in which the Donald is a Gaelic speaker - he could have been, as his mother was - is in touch with a couson in the Outer Hebrides and phones him - in Gaelic - for advice every week is however hilarious.)

d4m10n · 1st October 2022, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

If you grew up in a Scottish community and shared the same experiences as all the Scottish people around you, you should be considered Scottish regardless of your DNA. Conversely someone who hasn't lived that life an hasn't shared those experiences should probably refrain from claiming that culture, even if they share DNA with it, because genetic differences between groups of humans is to small to be relevant.

Very interesting point, and it leads to a question of how much time one needs to spend embedded in a culture (or subculture) in order to claim it. Rachel Dolezal "was obviously immersed in black culture," according to WaPo.

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Rolfe · 1st October 2022, 11:44 AM

I've met a lot of people who have come to Scotland as adults and done that. The ones who simply fit in without making a big deal about it are fine. The ones who go around being plus royaliste que le roi are absolute pains in the neck.

I think there is some difference between growing up in a culture and adopting it as an adult.

d4m10n · 1st October 2022, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I think there is some difference between growing up in a culture and adopting it as an adult.

Agreed, but it's one of those continuum things.

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LondonJohn · 1st October 2022, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

This was my line of reasoning and I'm surprised that it doesn't get more support here, of all places.

If transrace isn't a thing then it soon will be and we'll see a different take here. It'll go from, "why?" to, "why not you transracephobic piece of ******".

If mainstream psychiatry ever judges that identifying as an ethnicity other than one's ancestral ethnicity is neither a disorder nor the product of a disorder, then it will become "a thing". Until then, no it won't (in spite of your lack of understanding on how this all actually works).

Rolfe · 1st October 2022, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Agreed, but it's one of those continuum things.

Yes. I remember a guy who had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents and lived there and went to school there till he was seven. His cruel and unfeeling parents then dragged him to live in England because his father had a new job there. He felt very Scottish and felt deprived to some extent. He said he practised his accent to make sure he didn't lose it.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. My god-daughter lived in England till she was four or five and still has traces of an English accent (one Scottish one English parent). There are always going to be people who have a choice of identities.

Actually my god-daughter's older brother, who was eleven or twelve when the family moved, made a point of trying to keep his English identity, to the point where he wasn't chosen for a Scottish boys' rugby team because the coach thought he wouldn't want to play for Scotland. The coach was disabused of that assumption as soon as it was discovered that was the reason for the non-selection!

LondonJohn · 1st October 2022, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

And your basis from this inane theorising?

Inane, huh? Interesting classification on your part there.

Here, for example, is some more "inane theorising", drawing exactly the same parallel. Still, you know what's inane and not inane, so I bow down to your superior judgement....

https://welldoing.org/article/rachel-dolezal-identity

LondonJohn · 1st October 2022, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

There is literally a word for doing exactly that.

ETA: Even more interesting link.

Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Clearly when a) there have been huge social, societal and (sometimes) personal-jeopardy-related disadvantages to being black in white America, and b) a mixed-race person was/is of sufficiently light skin to conceivably pass as white.... then there was/is an obvious incentive to present as white. But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white.

Mojo · 1st October 2022, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Yes. I remember a guy who had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents and lived there and went to school there till he was seven. His cruel and unfeeling parents then dragged him to live in England because his father had a new job there. He felt very Scottish and felt deprived to some extent. He said he practised his accent to make sure he didn't lose it.

I knew a guy who was born in Kensington (The Boltons, to be precise) who had certainly practiced his accent. Scots ancestry, but born, grew up, and was educated in London.

Mojo · 1st October 2022, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Clearly when a) there have been huge social, societal and (sometimes) personal-jeopardy-related disadvantages to being black in white America, and b) a mixed-race person was/is of sufficiently light skin to conceivably pass as white.... then there was/is an obvious incentive to present as white. But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white.

As I said, I don’t think people doing it out of necessity are on topic for the thread.

d4m10n · 1st October 2022, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white.

I'd agree that the motivations are likely very different. When the descendants of Jefferson & Hemings passed into white society after manumission, they weren't trying to draw attention to their ethnicity (like Dolezal or Baldwin or Smith) they were just trying to blend in.

Thermal · 1st October 2022, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I remember a German friend telling me she met an American who said, on learning that she was German, "Oh, I'm German too!" Sabine asked him which part of Germany he was from. The answer was something about a great-grandmother from some unspecified part of what is now Germany.

Sabine said (her words), "That doesn't make you German, that makes you American."

We get the same thing with people claiming to be Scottish, and not only (though probably mainly) Americans. I've had Americans on this forum insisting they were Scottish because reasons, apparently only having been to Scotland once or twice on holiday, if that.

It does raise the question though, at what point does a great grandparent cease to be relevant? Or how many great grandparents do you need of a particular nationality to be able to claim some sort of ethnic descent? Legal nationality is one thing, but claims based on someone who contributed only one-eighth of your DNA (maybe)? I don't know.

In the States, saying "I'm German" is loosely synonymous with saying "I'm descended from German immigrants", mostly because many of our families have been here very long. No one is really claiming it is their nationality or culture. I'm sure you know this, but maybe you don't realize how base it is to our thinking of "what we are".

Rolfe · 1st October 2022, 12:38 PM

Best keep that among yourselves then, if you don't want laughed at.

smartcooky · 1st October 2022, 12:45 PM

I had a school friend(Nigel) at "Intermediate" School (for Americans that is 7th and 8th Grade) who always felt he was he was at least part Māori. Nigel did have some Māori-like facial features , and his skin was a little darker than that of your average skinny white boy. However, the evidence seemed to rule this out - both his parents were white, his younger sister was white, very pale-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed (like her mum) and there was enough resemblance between them to judge they were brother and sister.

I am still in contact with Nigel. A year or two back, he told me he and his sister did DNA tests with AncestryDNA and both chose the "matches" option. The results clearly showed that he and his sister are only half-siblings - same mother, different father. The matches on his (biological) father's side revealed cousins, second cousins and a half-brother all living in the North Island..... all of them from Maori families.

So Nigel was right. He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus.

d4m10n · 1st October 2022, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Best keep that among yourselves then, if you don't want laughed at.

I don't see any problem with it if you attach the appropriate hyphenation at the end. Mark Lee Reinhardt was "German American," but as a WWII era serviceman he'd complain about Kraut cars (i.e. Mercedes, BMW).

Originally Posted by smartcooky

He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus.

That is a strikingly bizarre story. Was Nigel treated any differently than his peers?

Norman Alexander · 1st October 2022, 02:01 PM

Is there a form I can fill out to apply for a casino license in the USA? I feel like making a fortune by being "part" American native. Because I am directly descended from the Powhatan nation of what is now Virginia, USA.

Granted that was 10 generations ago (I have the actual family tree here somewhere), and probably millions of people today round the globe will have a similar ancestry. But my 1:2¹⁰th Algonquin blood must surely count for something!

Thermal · 1st October 2022, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Is there a form I can fill out to apply for a casino license in the USA? I feel like making a fortune by being "part" American native. Because I am directly descended from the Powhatan nation of what is now Virginia, USA.

Granted that was 10 generations ago (I have the actual family tree here somewhere), and probably millions of people today round the globe will have a similar ancestry. But my 1:2¹⁰th Algonquin blood must surely count for something!

Honest answer: if you can prove ancestry to the relevant Tribal Council's satisfaction and gain recognized membership, you're a-rollin dem bones.

Ziggurat · 1st October 2022, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry

I wouldn't count Warren as "pretending" to be anything.

I would.

Quote:

She related a story from her grandmother saying she had some Native American blood, and DNA then backed it up.

Having a bit of Native American ancestry doesn't make one Native American, which she claimed to be multiple times in career-relevant contexts.

Quote:

If she was going around constantly invoking her "native heritage," it would be one thing.

Why does it need to be constant for you to object?

Norman Alexander · 1st October 2022, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Honest answer: if you can prove ancestry to the relevant Tribal Council's satisfaction and gain recognized membership, you're a-rollin dem bones.

I'm not even going to presume I qualify.

autumn1971 · 1st October 2022, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

The errors are not in the Daily Fail piece now, so they’ve either been fixed or MSN introduced them. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-dean-job.html

Is this different from all those Americans who claim to be Irish?

I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American” you are less than five minutes removed from the same white people describing themselves as Irish or Italian or Polish or whatever.

ETA: I’m talking about American white folks

Ziggurat · 1st October 2022, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I had a school friend(Nigel) at "Intermediate" School (for Americans that is 7th and 8th Grade) who always felt he was he was at least part Māori. Nigel did have some Māori-like facial features , and his skin was a little darker than that of your average skinny white boy. However, the evidence seemed to rule this out - both his parents were white, his younger sister was white, very pale-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed (like her mum) and there was enough resemblance between them to judge they were brother and sister.

I am still in contact with Nigel. A year or two back, he told me he and his sister did DNA tests with AncestryDNA and both chose the "matches" option. The results clearly showed that he and his sister are only half-siblings - same mother, different father. The matches on his (biological) father's side revealed cousins, second cousins and a half-brother all living in the North Island..... all of them from Maori families.

So Nigel was right. He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus.

In most cases, we only have a mother's word for who the father is. So when I read "both his parents were white", I immediately thought, were they though? And... yup.

Ziggurat · 1st October 2022, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American”

I don't think I've ever heard people complaining about that.

Not saying I doubt you. But maybe you need to find a better crowd.

Norman Alexander · 1st October 2022, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American” you are less than five minutes removed from the same white people describing themselves as Irish or Italian or Polish or whatever.

ETA: I’m talking about American white folks

It's sorta similar in most "white Anglo" countries.

Rolfe · 1st October 2022, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I don't see any problem with it if you attach the appropriate hyphenation at the end. Mark Lee Reinhardt was "German American," but as a WWII era serviceman he'd complain about Kraut cars (i.e. Mercedes, BMW).

Or say "American of German descent" or something like that. The bit that gets laughed at is straight-up claiming you're German (or whatever).

I have some distant relations whose recent ancestors emigrated to the USA some 100 years ago or more. I was surprised when one sent me a family tree she'd been researching to find that the Scottish community in Dallas seemed to make a habit of marrying its own, and most of her great grand parents had actually come from Scotland. I suppose that wasn't uncommon in the early years of people moving to a new country, but I expect the habit died out.

d4m10n · 1st October 2022, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Or say "American of German descent" or something like that. The bit that gets laughed at is straight-up claiming you're German (or whatever).

Fair enough. Most Americans lay claim to multiple potential hyphenates, if they stop to think about ancestry. Ethnic identity is necessarily fluid when you've got a dozen possibilities on the table.

Rolfe · 1st October 2022, 03:01 PM

I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago. They revise their estimates slightly from time to time but I'm currently standing at 98% Scottish, 1% Irish and 1% Basque. The Basque part has only just appeared and I'm doubtful. Basically boring as hell and I was really hoping for something interesting, too.

autumn1971 · 1st October 2022, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I don't think I've ever heard people complaining about that.

Not saying I doubt you. But maybe you need to find a better crowd.

It’s Florida. I hear it in grocery lines, restaurants, etc.

d4m10n · 1st October 2022, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago. They revise their estimates slightly from time to time but I'm currently standing at 98% Scottish, 1% Irish and 1% Basque.

To give you a sense of how mixed up we are here in the States, I've got an ancestor surnamed Robb from Linlithgow, West Lothian, Scotland (born 16 Feb 1822) and my wife is descended from a bunch of people surnamed Stewart. That's just one nationality, but we've got basically anything in Europe covered between the two of us. If our kids wanted to get into Scottish Rite weirdness, they'd have the pedigree.

This is why I tend to agree with the idea that it's upbringing that really matters.

Rolfe · 1st October 2022, 03:30 PM

In this sort of situation yes, more than the actual place of birth. But place of birth does seem to count for a great deal when it comes to passports.

smartcooky · 1st October 2022, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

That is a strikingly bizarre story. Was Nigel treated any differently than his peers?

Nope, not that I recall.

Warp12 · 1st October 2022, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

This was my line of reasoning and I'm surprised that it doesn't get more support here, of all places.

If transrace isn't a thing then it soon will be and we'll see a different take here. It'll go from, "why?" to, "why not you transracephobic piece of ******".

It is mesmerizing how the locals tap dance around this notion. I guess it would poke holes in their pet arguments. Funny.

smartcooky · 1st October 2022, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

In most cases, we only have a mother's word for who the father is. So when I read "both his parents were white", I immediately thought, were they though? And... yup.

From the standpoint of an onlooker, they just looked like a normal, kiwi, mum, dad and two kids family. Nigel did look a bit darker skinned, but not much darker. He had dark hair same his apparent "dad".

Warp12 · 1st October 2022, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

From the standpoint of an onlooker, they just looked like a normal, kiwi, mum, dad and two kids family. Nigel did look a bit darker skinned, but not much darker. He had dark hair same his apparent "dad".

Secretly, many were talking about a "****** in the woodpile".

Delvo · 1st October 2022, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Very interesting point, and it leads to a question of how much time one needs to spend embedded in a culture (or subculture) in order to claim it. Rachel Dolezal "was obviously immersed in black culture," according to WaPo.

Not just time but also intent. Dolezal made money from pretending to be black. She "immersed" herself in her fraud. (And that's what got Elizabeth Warren called "Pocahontas": not for being non-white, but for claiming to be non-white in a system that was set up to favor non-whites.)

Originally Posted by Thermal

In the States, saying "I'm German" is loosely synonymous with saying "I'm descended from German immigrants", mostly because many of our families have been here very long.

It's also just more efficient than tacking on extra modifiers to specify what everybody around already knows anyway. We're all Americans here, so obviously anybody asking about your ancestry is asking about your ancestry, so that's all that needs to be answered. It's really odd to see somebody getting wound up so tight about it.

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago... Basically boring as hell and I was really hoping for something interesting, too.

That could be a more common motivator than fraud for material gain. Many people like to have something about themselves that's different from what they're surrounded by, something a bit exotic... even while those who are stuck with such unique identifiers would often prefer to shed them if they could.

When I was a kid, the family in a house next to ours was a white American man, his wife from Korea, and their son. When their son brought other kids home with him, he told us to take our shoes off next to the door "because we're Korean". His mother heard this and yelled from another room "No we're not!".

d4m10n · 1st October 2022, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

Not just time but also intent. Dolezal made money from pretending to be black. She "immersed" herself in her fraud.

Is there some reason to believe she made more money than the median NAACP activist?

TheGoldcountry · 1st October 2022, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I would.

Having a bit of Native American ancestry doesn't make one Native American, which she claimed to be multiple times in career-relevant contexts.

Why does it need to be constant for you to object?

I wouldn't object in either case, because I don't care. I was saying they are different, because they are.

Cain · 1st October 2022, 11:27 PM

There are benefits to group membership. You can accomplish things. When people say I'm not allowed to use the word "retard," I remind them that I'm retarded. Then they get all racist about it, "But you're so well-spoken. Are you really retarded?" and I'm like "Aaaahhhrrr!" Anyway, accomplishments. I want to be a role model. An activist. But not the Martin Luther King of retards. He got shot! I want to be the Helen Keller.

bluesjnr · 2nd October 2022, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I remember a German friend telling me she met an American who said, on learning that she was German, "Oh, I'm German too!" Sabine asked him which part of Germany he was from. The answer was something about a great-grandmother from some unspecified part of what is now Germany.

Sabine said (her words), "That doesn't make you German, that makes you American."

We get the same thing with people claiming to be Scottish, and not only (though probably mainly) Americans. I've had Americans on this forum insisting they were Scottish because reasons, apparently only having been to Scotland once or twice on holiday, if that.

It does raise the question though, at what point does a great grandparent cease to be relevant? Or how many great grandparents do you need of a particular nationality to be able to claim some sort of ethnic descent? Legal nationality is one thing, but claims based on someone who contributed only one-eighth of your DNA (maybe)? I don't know.

On a cruise, many years ago, I had an American insist he was Scottish because his ancestors were from Bath.

He told me about the time he visited Scotland (never mentioned Bath in that story) and how impressed he was with the town of Aye-er. It wasn't until he mentioned Rabbie that I realised he was talking about Ayr.

Such witless ignorance wrapped in hubris.

ETA - Corrected after zooterkins post below

zooterkin · 2nd October 2022, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

On a cruise, many years ago, I had an American insist he was Scottish because his descendants were from Bath.

That really would be witless!

bluesjnr · 2nd October 2022, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Ethnicity is primarily a matter of what culture you identify with. DNA plays only a small role mostly in the form of largely irrelevant traits that may or may not result in a distinctly identifiable facial features.

Frequently, however, common appearance features result in groupings that make absolutely no sense at a genetic leave. Eg it's common in the US to think of African American as a group based on shared physical features even if they are much farther apart wrt to DNA that white Americans are. What ties African Americans together isn't DNA or even physical appearance it's cultural ties, shared experience and treatment within American society.

IMO anyone can be part of that ethno-cultural group so long as they have lived within that culture and shared the experience of people within that culture. If you grew up in a Scottish community and shared the same experiences as all the Scottish people around you, you should be considered Scottish regardless of your DNA. Conversely someone who hasn't lived that life an hasn't shared those experiences should probably refrain from claiming that culture, even if they share DNA with it, because genetic differences between groups of humans is to small to be relevant.

I was born in Scotland, as were all my siblings, I've lived here all my life apart from a few years working abroad, I wouldn't live anywhere else. When you hear me speak you'd identify me as Scottish, I'm culturally ensconced in everything Scottish. I'm Scottish.

My mother was Irish and my father is English.

I agree with you.

1st October 2022, 11:27 AM	#41
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	Originally Posted by lomiller IMO anyone can be part of that ethno-cultural group so long as they have lived within that culture and shared the experience of people within that culture. If you grew up in a Scottish community and shared the same experiences as all the Scottish people around you, you should be considered Scottish regardless of your DNA. Conversely someone who hasn't lived that life an hasn't shared those experiences should probably refrain from claiming that culture, even if they share DNA with it, because genetic differences between groups of humans is to small to be relevant. Not arguing with that. My newsagent is Scottish, despite having 100% Pakistani genetics. Donald Trump isn't. So there. (Although the comedy sketch on BBC Alba in which the Donald is a Gaelic speaker - he could have been, as his mother was - is in touch with a couson in the Outer Hebrides and phones him - in Gaelic - for advice every week is however hilarious.)
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st October 2022, 11:42 AM	#42
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by lomiller If you grew up in a Scottish community and shared the same experiences as all the Scottish people around you, you should be considered Scottish regardless of your DNA. Conversely someone who hasn't lived that life an hasn't shared those experiences should probably refrain from claiming that culture, even if they share DNA with it, because genetic differences between groups of humans is to small to be relevant. Very interesting point, and it leads to a question of how much time one needs to spend embedded in a culture (or subculture) in order to claim it. Rachel Dolezal "was obviously immersed in black culture," according to WaPo. Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.” Last edited by d4m10n; 1st October 2022 at 11:43 AM.

1st October 2022, 11:44 AM	#43
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	I've met a lot of people who have come to Scotland as adults and done that. The ones who simply fit in without making a big deal about it are fine. The ones who go around being plus royaliste que le roi are absolute pains in the neck. I think there is some difference between growing up in a culture and adopting it as an adult.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st October 2022, 11:46 AM	#44
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by Rolfe I think there is some difference between growing up in a culture and adopting it as an adult. Agreed, but it's one of those continuum things. Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.”

1st October 2022, 11:55 AM	#46
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	Originally Posted by d4m10n Agreed, but it's one of those continuum things. Yes. I remember a guy who had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents and lived there and went to school there till he was seven. His cruel and unfeeling parents then dragged him to live in England because his father had a new job there. He felt very Scottish and felt deprived to some extent. He said he practised his accent to make sure he didn't lose it. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. My god-daughter lived in England till she was four or five and still has traces of an English accent (one Scottish one English parent). There are always going to be people who have a choice of identities. Actually my god-daughter's older brother, who was eleven or twelve when the family moved, made a point of trying to keep his English identity, to the point where he wasn't chosen for a Scottish boys' rugby team because the coach thought he wouldn't want to play for Scotland. The coach was disabused of that assumption as soon as it was discovered that was the reason for the non-selection!
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st October 2022, 11:55 AM	#45
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,569	Originally Posted by bluesjnr This was my line of reasoning and I'm surprised that it doesn't get more support here, of all places. If transrace isn't a thing then it soon will be and we'll see a different take here. It'll go from, "why?" to, "why not you transracephobic piece of ******". If mainstream psychiatry ever judges that identifying as an ethnicity other than one's ancestral ethnicity is neither a disorder nor the product of a disorder, then it will become "a thing". Until then, no it won't (in spite of your lack of understanding on how this all actually works).

1st October 2022, 11:59 AM	#47
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,569	Originally Posted by catsmate And your basis from this inane theorising? Inane, huh? Interesting classification on your part there. Here, for example, is some more "inane theorising", drawing exactly the same parallel. Still, you know what's inane and not inane, so I bow down to your superior judgement.... https://welldoing.org/article/rachel-dolezal-identity

1st October 2022, 12:06 PM	#48
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,569	Originally Posted by d4m10n There is literally a word for doing exactly that. ETA: Even more interesting link. Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Clearly when a) there have been huge social, societal and (sometimes) personal-jeopardy-related disadvantages to being black in white America, and b) a mixed-race person was/is of sufficiently light skin to conceivably pass as white.... then there was/is an obvious incentive to present as white. But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white.

1st October 2022, 12:18 PM	#49
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 38,056	Originally Posted by Rolfe Yes. I remember a guy who had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents and lived there and went to school there till he was seven. His cruel and unfeeling parents then dragged him to live in England because his father had a new job there. He felt very Scottish and felt deprived to some extent. He said he practised his accent to make sure he didn't lose it. I knew a guy who was born in Kensington (The Boltons, to be precise) who had certainly practiced his accent. Scots ancestry, but born, grew up, and was educated in London.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

1st October 2022, 12:19 PM	#50
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 38,056	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Clearly when a) there have been huge social, societal and (sometimes) personal-jeopardy-related disadvantages to being black in white America, and b) a mixed-race person was/is of sufficiently light skin to conceivably pass as white.... then there was/is an obvious incentive to present as white. But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white. As I said, I don’t think people doing it out of necessity are on topic for the thread.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

1st October 2022, 12:20 PM	#51
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by LondonJohn But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white. I'd agree that the motivations are likely very different. When the descendants of Jefferson & Hemings passed into white society after manumission, they weren't trying to draw attention to their ethnicity (like Dolezal or Baldwin or Smith) they were just trying to blend in.
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.”

1st October 2022, 12:22 PM	#52
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Where the Arrantly Roam Posts: 24,807	Originally Posted by Rolfe I remember a German friend telling me she met an American who said, on learning that she was German, "Oh, I'm German too!" Sabine asked him which part of Germany he was from. The answer was something about a great-grandmother from some unspecified part of what is now Germany. Sabine said (her words), "That doesn't make you German, that makes you American." We get the same thing with people claiming to be Scottish, and not only (though probably mainly) Americans. I've had Americans on this forum insisting they were Scottish because reasons, apparently only having been to Scotland once or twice on holiday, if that. It does raise the question though, at what point does a great grandparent cease to be relevant? Or how many great grandparents do you need of a particular nationality to be able to claim some sort of ethnic descent? Legal nationality is one thing, but claims based on someone who contributed only one-eighth of your DNA (maybe)? I don't know. In the States, saying "I'm German" is loosely synonymous with saying "I'm descended from German immigrants", mostly because many of our families have been here very long. No one is really claiming it is their nationality or culture. I'm sure you know this, but maybe you don't realize how base it is to our thinking of "what we are".
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

1st October 2022, 12:38 PM	#53
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	Best keep that among yourselves then, if you don't want laughed at.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st October 2022, 12:45 PM	#54
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	I had a school friend(Nigel) at "Intermediate" School (for Americans that is 7th and 8th Grade) who always felt he was he was at least part Māori. Nigel did have some Māori-like facial features , and his skin was a little darker than that of your average skinny white boy. However, the evidence seemed to rule this out - both his parents were white, his younger sister was white, very pale-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed (like her mum) and there was enough resemblance between them to judge they were brother and sister. I am still in contact with Nigel. A year or two back, he told me he and his sister did DNA tests with AncestryDNA and both chose the "matches" option. The results clearly showed that he and his sister are only half-siblings - same mother, different father. The matches on his (biological) father's side revealed cousins, second cousins and a half-brother all living in the North Island..... all of them from Maori families. So Nigel was right. He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus.
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! Last edited by smartcooky; 1st October 2022 at 12:48 PM.

1st October 2022, 12:49 PM	#55
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by Rolfe Best keep that among yourselves then, if you don't want laughed at. I don't see any problem with it if you attach the appropriate hyphenation at the end. Mark Lee Reinhardt was "German American," but as a WWII era serviceman he'd complain about Kraut cars (i.e. Mercedes, BMW). Originally Posted by smartcooky He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus. That is a strikingly bizarre story. Was Nigel treated any differently than his peers?
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.” Last edited by d4m10n; 1st October 2022 at 12:51 PM.

1st October 2022, 02:01 PM	#56
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 16,174	Is there a form I can fill out to apply for a casino license in the USA? I feel like making a fortune by being "part" American native. Because I am directly descended from the Powhatan nation of what is now Virginia, USA. Granted that was 10 generations ago (I have the actual family tree here somewhere), and probably millions of people today round the globe will have a similar ancestry. But my 1:2¹⁰th Algonquin blood must surely count for something!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

1st October 2022, 02:04 PM	#57
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Where the Arrantly Roam Posts: 24,807	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Is there a form I can fill out to apply for a casino license in the USA? I feel like making a fortune by being "part" American native. Because I am directly descended from the Powhatan nation of what is now Virginia, USA. Granted that was 10 generations ago (I have the actual family tree here somewhere), and probably millions of people today round the globe will have a similar ancestry. But my 1:2¹⁰th Algonquin blood must surely count for something! Honest answer: if you can prove ancestry to the relevant Tribal Council's satisfaction and gain recognized membership, you're a-rollin dem bones.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

1st October 2022, 02:19 PM	#58
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry I wouldn't count Warren as "pretending" to be anything. I would. Quote: She related a story from her grandmother saying she had some Native American blood, and DNA then backed it up. Having a bit of Native American ancestry doesn't make one Native American, which she claimed to be multiple times in career-relevant contexts. Quote: If she was going around constantly invoking her "native heritage," it would be one thing. Why does it need to be constant for you to object?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

1st October 2022, 02:23 PM	#59
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 16,174	Originally Posted by Thermal Honest answer: if you can prove ancestry to the relevant Tribal Council's satisfaction and gain recognized membership, you're a-rollin dem bones. I'm not even going to presume I qualify.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

1st October 2022, 02:26 PM	#60
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,279	Originally Posted by zooterkin The errors are not in the Daily Fail piece now, so they’ve either been fixed or MSN introduced them. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-dean-job.html Is this different from all those Americans who claim to be Irish? I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American” you are less than five minutes removed from the same white people describing themselves as Irish or Italian or Polish or whatever. ETA: I’m talking about American white folks
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,279	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

1st October 2022, 02:26 PM	#61
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by smartcooky I had a school friend(Nigel) at "Intermediate" School (for Americans that is 7th and 8th Grade) who always felt he was he was at least part Māori. Nigel did have some Māori-like facial features , and his skin was a little darker than that of your average skinny white boy. However, the evidence seemed to rule this out - both his parents were white, his younger sister was white, very pale-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed (like her mum) and there was enough resemblance between them to judge they were brother and sister. I am still in contact with Nigel. A year or two back, he told me he and his sister did DNA tests with AncestryDNA and both chose the "matches" option. The results clearly showed that he and his sister are only half-siblings - same mother, different father. The matches on his (biological) father's side revealed cousins, second cousins and a half-brother all living in the North Island..... all of them from Maori families. So Nigel was right. He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus. In most cases, we only have a mother's word for who the father is. So when I read "both his parents were white", I immediately thought, were they though? And... yup.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

1st October 2022, 02:27 PM	#62
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by autumn1971 I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American” I don't think I've ever heard people complaining about that. Not saying I doubt you. But maybe you need to find a better crowd.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

1st October 2022, 02:28 PM	#63
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 16,174	Originally Posted by autumn1971 I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American” you are less than five minutes removed from the same white people describing themselves as Irish or Italian or Polish or whatever. ETA: I’m talking about American white folks It's sorta similar in most "white Anglo" countries.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

1st October 2022, 02:29 PM	#64
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	Originally Posted by d4m10n I don't see any problem with it if you attach the appropriate hyphenation at the end. Mark Lee Reinhardt was "German American," but as a WWII era serviceman he'd complain about Kraut cars (i.e. Mercedes, BMW). Or say "American of German descent" or something like that. The bit that gets laughed at is straight-up claiming you're German (or whatever). I have some distant relations whose recent ancestors emigrated to the USA some 100 years ago or more. I was surprised when one sent me a family tree she'd been researching to find that the Scottish community in Dallas seemed to make a habit of marrying its own, and most of her great grand parents had actually come from Scotland. I suppose that wasn't uncommon in the early years of people moving to a new country, but I expect the habit died out.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st October 2022, 02:43 PM	#65
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by Rolfe Or say "American of German descent" or something like that. The bit that gets laughed at is straight-up claiming you're German (or whatever). Fair enough. Most Americans lay claim to multiple potential hyphenates, if they stop to think about ancestry. Ethnic identity is necessarily fluid when you've got a dozen possibilities on the table.
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.”

1st October 2022, 03:01 PM	#66
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago. They revise their estimates slightly from time to time but I'm currently standing at 98% Scottish, 1% Irish and 1% Basque. The Basque part has only just appeared and I'm doubtful. Basically boring as hell and I was really hoping for something interesting, too.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st October 2022, 03:17 PM	#67
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,279	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I don't think I've ever heard people complaining about that. Not saying I doubt you. But maybe you need to find a better crowd. It’s Florida. I hear it in grocery lines, restaurants, etc.
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,279	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

1st October 2022, 03:19 PM	#68
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by Rolfe I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago. They revise their estimates slightly from time to time but I'm currently standing at 98% Scottish, 1% Irish and 1% Basque. To give you a sense of how mixed up we are here in the States, I've got an ancestor surnamed Robb from Linlithgow, West Lothian, Scotland (born 16 Feb 1822) and my wife is descended from a bunch of people surnamed Stewart. That's just one nationality, but we've got basically anything in Europe covered between the two of us. If our kids wanted to get into Scottish Rite weirdness, they'd have the pedigree. This is why I tend to agree with the idea that it's upbringing that really matters.
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.”

1st October 2022, 03:30 PM	#69
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	In this sort of situation yes, more than the actual place of birth. But place of birth does seem to count for a great deal when it comes to passports.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st October 2022, 05:48 PM	#70
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by d4m10n That is a strikingly bizarre story. Was Nigel treated any differently than his peers? Nope, not that I recall.
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!

1st October 2022, 05:56 PM	#71
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by bluesjnr This was my line of reasoning and I'm surprised that it doesn't get more support here, of all places. If transrace isn't a thing then it soon will be and we'll see a different take here. It'll go from, "why?" to, "why not you transracephobic piece of ******". It is mesmerizing how the locals tap dance around this notion. I guess it would poke holes in their pet arguments. Funny.

1st October 2022, 05:57 PM	#72
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by Ziggurat In most cases, we only have a mother's word for who the father is. So when I read "both his parents were white", I immediately thought, were they though? And... yup. From the standpoint of an onlooker, they just looked like a normal, kiwi, mum, dad and two kids family. Nigel did look a bit darker skinned, but not much darker. He had dark hair same his apparent "dad".
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!

1st October 2022, 06:07 PM	#73
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by smartcooky From the standpoint of an onlooker, they just looked like a normal, kiwi, mum, dad and two kids family. Nigel did look a bit darker skinned, but not much darker. He had dark hair same his apparent "dad". Secretly, many were talking about a "****** in the woodpile".

1st October 2022, 06:07 PM	#74
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 11,452	Originally Posted by d4m10n Very interesting point, and it leads to a question of how much time one needs to spend embedded in a culture (or subculture) in order to claim it. Rachel Dolezal "was obviously immersed in black culture," according to WaPo. Not just time but also intent. Dolezal made money from pretending to be black. She "immersed" herself in her fraud. (And that's what got Elizabeth Warren called "Pocahontas": not for being non-white, but for claiming to be non-white in a system that was set up to favor non-whites.) Originally Posted by Thermal In the States, saying "I'm German" is loosely synonymous with saying "I'm descended from German immigrants", mostly because many of our families have been here very long. It's also just more efficient than tacking on extra modifiers to specify what everybody around already knows anyway. We're all Americans here, so obviously anybody asking about your ancestry is asking about your ancestry, so that's all that needs to be answered. It's really odd to see somebody getting wound up so tight about it. Originally Posted by Rolfe I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago... Basically boring as hell and I was really hoping for something interesting, too. That could be a more common motivator than fraud for material gain. Many people like to have something about themselves that's different from what they're surrounded by, something a bit exotic... even while those who are stuck with such unique identifiers would often prefer to shed them if they could. When I was a kid, the family in a house next to ours was a white American man, his wife from Korea, and their son. When their son brought other kids home with him, he told us to take our shoes off next to the door "because we're Korean". His mother heard this and yelled from another room "No we're not!".

1st October 2022, 07:18 PM	#75
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by Delvo Not just time but also intent. Dolezal made money from pretending to be black. She "immersed" herself in her fraud. Is there some reason to believe she made more money than the median NAACP activist?
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.”