Race Fraud - Page 3

bluesjnr · 2nd October 2022, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

That really would be witless!

Bugger it!

smartcooky · 2nd October 2022, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Secretly, many were talking about a "****** in the woodpile".

Not in this country.. we aren't like you!

Rolfe · 2nd October 2022, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

I was born in Scotland, as were all my siblings, I've lived here all my life apart from a few years working abroad, I wouldn't live anywhere else. When you hear me speak you'd identify me as Scottish, I'm culturally ensconced in everything Scottish. I'm Scottish.

My mother was Irish and my father is English.

I agree with you.

Totally. My boring Ancestry results don't make me any more Scottish than you. I've probably worked out of Scotland for longer than you have.

Elaedith · 2nd October 2022, 03:47 AM

Edited by sarge:

removed moderated content

Identifying as an ethnicity other than one's own is already not classified as a disorder or the product of a disorder. There is a phrase 'ethnic identity disorder' but it is urban slang, not an actual diagnosis.

Reality exists independently of social constructs, the nature of reality is not determined by psychiatric and medical organisations, and the idea that beliefs and mental states are either disorders or products of disorders, or else 'valid' and therefore have to be treated as literally true (LondonJohn's made up 'theory'), is arrant nonsense.

zooterkin · 2nd October 2022, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago. They revise their estimates slightly from time to time but I'm currently standing at 98% Scottish, 1% Irish and 1% Basque. The Basque part has only just appeared and I'm doubtful. Basically boring as hell and I was really hoping for something interesting, too.

My understanding of the way these percentages are calculated is that the company providing the service compares certain sequences of your DNA with those of the other people whose DNA they have on file. They then look at where those people are located, and use that as the possible locations for your ancestors. We don't have databases showing the DNA from different populations by location and date through history, which is what you'd need to actually do what is being claimed.

This is of course very approximate, and depends on the database they are working from. For a start, it's going to be a self-selecting group of those willing to pay for the service. Their current location may be unrelated to where their ancestors lived. You may well get different results from different DNA analysis companies as they will be working from different databases, and even different results from the same company at a later date as their data is updated.

Rolfe · 2nd October 2022, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

My understanding of the way these percentages are calculated is that the company providing the service compares certain sequences of your DNA with those of the other people whose DNA they have on file. They then look at where those people are located, and use that as the possible locations for your ancestors. We don't have databases showing the DNA from different populations by location and date through history, which is what you'd need to actually do what is being claimed.

This is of course very approximate, and depends on the database they are working from. For a start, it's going to be a self-selecting group of those willing to pay for the service. Their current location may be unrelated to where their ancestors lived. You may well get different results from different DNA analysis companies as they will be working from different databases, and even different results from the same company at a later date as their data is updated.

Yes, my feeling is they're looking about 200 years back or thereabouts. Beyond that, all bets are off. We know our lot traipsed here from the near east through central Europe a couple of millennia ago, there are place names and so on to prove it. (Intrigued to discover on holiday this summer that the River Inn in Austria is probably another River Avon - from abhainn, river, but passaged through Latin on the way.)

Still, it was noticeable that not only did they get the country right, the locality they homed in on included both the village where I was born and brought up and the one where I live now.

d4m10n · 2nd October 2022, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

My understanding of the way these percentages are calculated is that the company providing the service compares certain sequences of your DNA with those of the other people whose DNA they have on file.

This is correct, but they have deliberately oversampled people who likely represent ancient indigenous stock on any given continent. Here are some of the specific populations often used to determine Native American ancestry, for example: Figure 2

That's from the link labeled "DNA" in the OP, which has a good discussion of some technical details re: Liz Warren.

Darat · 2nd October 2022, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

I was born in Scotland, as were all my siblings, I've lived here all my life apart from a few years working abroad, I wouldn't live anywhere else. When you hear me speak you'd identify me as Scottish, I'm culturally ensconced in everything Scottish. I'm Scottish.

My mother was Irish and my father is English.

I agree with you.

My entire family on both sides are within 2 generations back in Wales, in two villages next-door to each other and all share the same surname.... yeah obviously a limited gene pool - some of my great aunts and uncles were born in Wales. But I would never consider describing myself as Welsh, it just wouldn't make any sense to me, I was born in England and raised (mostly) in England so I'm English or British. Mind you I was brought up to think that I was "born and bred" a Geordie even though we left the NE when I was 6. Even when that comes come up I would say something more like "I am a Geordie by birth" as I can't really claim an "identity" as a Geordie.

Rolfe · 2nd October 2022, 05:31 AM

I read Ancestry's criteria for identifying individuals they would sample as representative of the indigenous population of a region, and in fact I would qualify for that sample pool if they needed more Scottish people for their statistics. So it's probably no great surprise that I came out 98% Scottish on their system.

Matthew Best · 2nd October 2022, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation.

Claiming another race here, are we?

theprestige · 2nd October 2022, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Clearly when a) there have been huge social, societal and (sometimes) personal-jeopardy-related disadvantages to being black in white America, and b) a mixed-race person was/is of sufficiently light skin to conceivably pass as white.... then there was/is an obvious incentive to present as white. But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white.

I'm pretty sure it's the exact same mechanism: Exploitation of perceived advantage.

arayder · 2nd October 2022, 01:08 PM

But it's a whole 'nuther thing. . .real fraud. . .if pretend to be part of a group that gets a benefit, say a Native American tribe, when in fact you are not part of that group.

Another example would be an actor pretending to be of a race or ethnicity a movie director was requiring for a role in order to ensure his/her notion of authenticity.

Rolfe · 2nd October 2022, 01:16 PM

*ensure

arayder · 2nd October 2022, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

*ensure

My bade. Idit made.

Alone these lines I have a muslim friend who swears to high heaven (can muslims do that?) that Salma Hayek has strong muslim roots and has long covered them up to get ahead in Hollywood.

That would be reverse fraud, if true.

Rolfe · 2nd October 2022, 01:36 PM

It's the same fraud whichever way it's done. "Passing" as white is the situation that has the pedigree.

d4m10n · 2nd October 2022, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by arayder

But it's a whole 'nuther thing. . .real fraud. . .if pretend to be part of a group that gets a benefit, say a Native American tribe, when in fact you are part of that group.

Did you leave out a negation here?

Originally Posted by Rolfe

It's the same fraud whichever way it's done.

I'd say there is some asymmetry here, on account of the ridiculous one drop rule^WP.

Homer Plessy didn't merely "pass" as white, the dude was literally ⅞ European American by ancestry. The idea that the remaining ⅛ determined his "race" was an exceptionally stupid social construct.

arayder · 2nd October 2022, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Did you leave out a negation here?

Yes, I did. Should read: "But it's a whole 'nuther thing. . .real fraud. . .if pretend to be part of a group that gets a benefit, say a Native American tribe, when in fact you are not part of that group."

Thanks!

Rolfe · 2nd October 2022, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I'd say there is some asymmetry here, on account of the ridiculous one drop rule^WP.

Homer Plessy didn't merely "pass" as white, the dude was literally ⅞ European American by ancestry. The idea that the remaining ⅛ determined his "race" was an exceptionally stupid social construct.

In that respect, I'd say you're right.

Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway?

d4m10n · 2nd October 2022, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Claiming another race here, are we?

I think of Benedict Wong as British, but on screen he's something else.

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway?

Because Americans have really weird ideas about "race," which was never really a scientifically valid idea in the first place. I mean, yeah, people can usually pattern match to make a decent guess as to where *most* of someone's ancestors were living around 500 years ago, rounding to the nearest continent. That doesn't mean the "five races" are actually a natural category which can be extracted from a genetic dataset.

So it's a social category, and "black" has been socially constructed to include basically everyone who can be read as having a bit of detectable African ancestry. This opens the door to some serious weirdness, like Dolezal (100% Euro, passing as black) or Plessy (87.5% Euro, legally black) or Obama (50% Euro, universally considered black). It's all just a stupid mess, and we should probably go w/ upbringing instead of anything else.

Mojo · 2nd October 2022, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by arayder

Yes, I did. Should read: "But it's a whole 'nuther thing. . .real fraud. . .if pretend to be part of a group that gets a benefit, say a Native American tribe, when in fact you are not part of that group."

Thanks!

Someone pretending to be something that they actually are would be fiendishly sneaky, though.

Quote:

Lambert Simnel (the Young Pretender) was really (probably) himself, but cleverly pretended to be the Earl of Warbeck. Henry VII therefore ordered him to be led through the streets of London to prove that he really was.

Perkin Warbeck (the Older and more confusing Pretender) insisted that he was himself, thus causing complete dissention till Henry VII had him led through the streets of London to prove that he was really Lambert Simnel.

Sellar, W. C. and Yeatman, R. J. (1930). 1066 And All That. London: Methuen & Co. Ltd

bluesjnr · 2nd October 2022, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Claiming another race here, are we?

He's claiming to be the Sorcerer Supreme of the Masters of the Mystic Arts. **** just got real!

Mojo · 2nd October 2022, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Did you leave out a negation here?

I'd say there is some asymmetry here, on account of the ridiculous one drop rule^WP.

Homer Plessy didn't merely "pass" as white, the dude was literally ⅞ European American by ancestry. The idea that the remaining ⅛ determined his "race" was an exceptionally stupid social construct.

Race is a social construct.

Bob001 · 2nd October 2022, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

In that respect, I'd say you're right.

Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway?

Are you asking that seriously?

bluesjnr · 2nd October 2022, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Race is a social construct.

Humans have to agree what a social construct is, therefore it exists.

porch · 2nd October 2022, 03:03 PM

There is a CBC documentary, came out just last week: The Pretendians https://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/epi...he-pretendians

I have yet to check it out. I expect it to cover Indigeneity as related to law and policy, as well as related to cultural cachet, and who gets to define each of those things.

Delvo · 2nd October 2022, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway?

In a country where there's a standard idea of the usual, any difference from the usual makes you not-the-usual.

Venom · 2nd October 2022, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Because Americans have really weird ideas about "race," which was never really a scientifically valid idea in the first place. I mean, yeah, people can usually pattern match to make a decent guess as to where *most* of someone's ancestors were living around 500 years ago, rounding to the nearest continent. That doesn't mean the "five races" are actually a natural category which can be extracted from a genetic dataset.

So it's a social category, and "black" has been socially constructed to include basically everyone who can be read as having a bit of detectable African ancestry. This opens the door to some serious weirdness, like Dolezal (100% Euro, passing as black) or Plessy (87.5% Euro, legally black) or Obama (50% Euro, universally considered black). It's all just a stupid mess, and we should probably go w/ upbringing instead of anything else.

I agree race is socially constructed but I'm a bit curious about "never really a scientifically valid idea". Not scientifically useful? Maybe not much. And though I think 19th century naturalists often had an agenda, it couldn't all be motivated by racism could it? I think craniometrics alone reveals quite a lot about which human populations are closely linked.

Dolezal is interesting she also has peculiar facial features that, with a little makeup, do make her passable as mulatta imo, if a little atypical.

porch · 2nd October 2022, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway?

Comedian Paul Mooney had a bit about how white Americans can't love Obama for being half white, they have to hate him for being half black.

Stout · 2nd October 2022, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by porch

There is a CBC documentary, came out just last week: The Pretendians https://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/epi...he-pretendians

I have yet to check it out. I expect it to cover Indigeneity as related to law and policy, as well as related to cultural cachet, and who gets to define each of those things.

Might be worth watching, after all, I paid for it.

I just got a letter from my kid's high school inviting him to self identify as indigenous.

An excerpt.

Quote:

The BC Ministry of Education and Child Care defines Indigenous ancestry as students who identify as First
Nations, Status or Non-status, Métis or Inuit. The BC Ministry of Education and Child Care does not require proof
of ancestry to self-identify. Parents and caregivers of students with Indigenous ancestry may choose to self-identify
on the school registration form under the section Indigenous ancestry or by calling the school to request that they
include this self-identification of Indigenous ancestry on your child’s school registration form. The IED will
connect with your family annually about the opportunities that may be available at your school, in the district and/or
in the community as it relates to Indigenous Education. Participation in these programs, supports and services is
always voluntary.

What would be the advantage? Why, university entrance of course. As a cishet white boy, he's at the back of the line when it comes to university entrance so what's to lose by mucking about in the identity politics sandbox?

He doesn't even have to let his peers know that he's self ID'd as indigenous, it would just be a checked box on a form.

d4m10n · 2nd October 2022, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Race is a social construct.

Yes, but not all social constructs are equally ridiculous.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

rockinkt · 3rd October 2022, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by shemp

By the way, Rachel Dolezal is now available on OnlyFans, where for $9.99 a month you can see her posing scantily clad to promote her line of lingerie products. I saw a couple of leaked photos; save your money.

Were they bought on the black market?

catsmate · 4th October 2022, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

If mainstream psychiatry ever judges that identifying as an ethnicity other than one's ancestral ethnicity is neither a disorder nor the product of a disorder, then it will become "a thing". Until then, no it won't (in spite of your lack of understanding on how this all actually works).

Is "identifying as an ethnicity other than one's ancestral ethnicity" currently considered a disorder? Does it appears in the DSM or other references?

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Inane, huh? Interesting classification on your part there.

Yes, inane; "lacking sense or meaning; silly".

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Here, for example, is some more "inane theorising", drawing exactly the same parallel. Still, you know what's inane and not inane, so I bow down to your superior judgement....

https://welldoing.org/article/rachel-dolezal-identity

Oh look, more alleged psychoanalysis without meeting the (alleged) patient. Perhaps the UK should embrace the Goldwater Rule.....

theprestige · 4th October 2022, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Stout

Might be worth watching, after all, I paid for it.

I just got a letter from my kid's high school inviting him to self identify as indigenous.

An excerpt.

What would be the advantage? Why, university entrance of course. As a cishet white boy, he's at the back of the line when it comes to university entrance so what's to lose by mucking about in the identity politics sandbox?

He doesn't even have to let his peers know that he's self ID'd as indigenous, it would just be a checked box on a form.

What's an "IED" in this context?

Whatever it is, it seems clear that the authors of the letter believe that increased participation is a higher priority right now than strict gatekeeping. This tells me that either the thing being offered isn't very valuable, or else it incorporates some perverse incentive to unethical behavior.

bluesjnr · 4th October 2022, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

What's an "IED" in this context?

Whatever it is, it seems clear that the authors of the letter believe that increased participation is a higher priority right now than strict gatekeeping. This tells me that either the thing being offered isn't very valuable, or else it incorporates some perverse incentive to unethical behavior.

Indigenous Education Department?

Stout · 4th October 2022, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

What's an "IED" in this context?

Whatever it is, it seems clear that the authors of the letter believe that increased participation is a higher priority right now than strict gatekeeping. This tells me that either the thing being offered isn't very valuable, or else it incorporates some perverse incentive to unethical behavior.

It's the Indigenous Education Department. I'm not exactly sure what it is but it looks like some sort of steering committee with an aim to increasing Indigenous knowledge and culture into the public school system. As a for instance, students will be required to complete at least two Indigenous specific courses to graduate. We're still in the process of determining whether this will have an impact on a student taking a full academic course load or taking a course load geared towards a specific area of post-secondary study.

No idea why the school board went down the self ID road. We're hoping to find that out soon. I could speculate (increases in funding, "proving" a need for Indigenous content, people hiding Indigenous ancestry for whatever reason) but I don't have anything from the horse's mouth. Yet.

We've got a year before we need to really deal with this. It all depends on the exact path my kid ends up shooting for. Engineering technology at community college followed by a few years working in the field or straight to university for his P.Eng.

Thermal · 4th October 2022, 08:38 AM

Wouldn't it take about a minute and a half for universities to spread the word that this identification is bogus, and toss any applicant claiming First Nation membership through them?

Stout · 4th October 2022, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Wouldn't it take about a minute and a half for universities to spread the word that this identification is bogus, and toss any applicant claiming First Nation membership through them?

Maybe, but it would require the university to call the applicant(s) a liar to their face(s) and should someone come back with a DNA test proving their claim then it could be rather embarrassing.

theprestige · 4th October 2022, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Wouldn't it take about a minute and a half for universities to spread the word that this identification is bogus, and toss any applicant claiming First Nation membership through them?

Rather than tossing the application, they'd probably just not give any weight to that particular bullet point.

d4m10n · 4th October 2022, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Stout

No idea why the school board went down the self ID road. We're hoping to find that out soon. I could speculate (increases in funding, "proving" a need for Indigenous content, people hiding Indigenous ancestry for whatever reason) but I don't have anything from the horse's mouth.

Here in Oklahoma, each federally recognized tribe has their own process and ancestral requirements for "enrollment" therein. My kids are descended from Miami and Delaware tribesmen, but only enrolled in the latter tribe because that is the tribe that their documented ancestress was in on the Dawes Rolls^WP. (It's actually somewhat more complicated than that, but I'm going for the short version here.)

My question is this: Don't you folks have any sort of system like this up in the great white north?

Rolfe · 4th October 2022, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Stout

Maybe, but it would require the university to call the applicant(s) a liar to their face(s) and should someone come back with a DNA test proving their claim then it could be rather embarrassing.

Even a DNA test could be misleading. I think someone with one great grandparent of the ethnicity in question might not actually have any of that DNA but still be legitimately descended from the ethnic group.

2nd October 2022, 12:54 AM	#81
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 11,679	Originally Posted by zooterkin That really would be witless! Bugger it!
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

2nd October 2022, 02:38 AM	#82
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,812	Originally Posted by Warp12 Secretly, many were talking about a "****** in the woodpile". Not in this country.. we aren't like you!
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... indict the F45CIST!!

2nd October 2022, 03:09 AM	#83
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	Originally Posted by bluesjnr I was born in Scotland, as were all my siblings, I've lived here all my life apart from a few years working abroad, I wouldn't live anywhere else. When you hear me speak you'd identify me as Scottish, I'm culturally ensconced in everything Scottish. I'm Scottish. My mother was Irish and my father is English. I agree with you. Totally. My boring Ancestry results don't make me any more Scottish than you. I've probably worked out of Scotland for longer than you have.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

2nd October 2022, 03:48 AM	#85
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 57,130	Originally Posted by Rolfe I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago. They revise their estimates slightly from time to time but I'm currently standing at 98% Scottish, 1% Irish and 1% Basque. The Basque part has only just appeared and I'm doubtful. Basically boring as hell and I was really hoping for something interesting, too. My understanding of the way these percentages are calculated is that the company providing the service compares certain sequences of your DNA with those of the other people whose DNA they have on file. They then look at where those people are located, and use that as the possible locations for your ancestors. We don't have databases showing the DNA from different populations by location and date through history, which is what you'd need to actually do what is being claimed. This is of course very approximate, and depends on the database they are working from. For a start, it's going to be a self-selecting group of those willing to pay for the service. Their current location may be unrelated to where their ancestors lived. You may well get different results from different DNA analysis companies as they will be working from different databases, and even different results from the same company at a later date as their data is updated.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 Last edited by zooterkin; 2nd October 2022 at 03:50 AM.

2nd October 2022, 04:45 AM	#86
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	Originally Posted by zooterkin My understanding of the way these percentages are calculated is that the company providing the service compares certain sequences of your DNA with those of the other people whose DNA they have on file. They then look at where those people are located, and use that as the possible locations for your ancestors. We don't have databases showing the DNA from different populations by location and date through history, which is what you'd need to actually do what is being claimed. This is of course very approximate, and depends on the database they are working from. For a start, it's going to be a self-selecting group of those willing to pay for the service. Their current location may be unrelated to where their ancestors lived. You may well get different results from different DNA analysis companies as they will be working from different databases, and even different results from the same company at a later date as their data is updated. Yes, my feeling is they're looking about 200 years back or thereabouts. Beyond that, all bets are off. We know our lot traipsed here from the near east through central Europe a couple of millennia ago, there are place names and so on to prove it. (Intrigued to discover on holiday this summer that the River Inn in Austria is probably another River Avon - from abhainn, river, but passaged through Latin on the way.) Still, it was noticeable that not only did they get the country right, the locality they homed in on included both the village where I was born and brought up and the one where I live now.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

2nd October 2022, 05:19 AM	#87
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by zooterkin My understanding of the way these percentages are calculated is that the company providing the service compares certain sequences of your DNA with those of the other people whose DNA they have on file. This is correct, but they have deliberately oversampled people who likely represent ancient indigenous stock on any given continent. Here are some of the specific populations often used to determine Native American ancestry, for example: Figure 2 That's from the link labeled "DNA" in the OP, which has a good discussion of some technical details re: Liz Warren.
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.” Last edited by d4m10n; 2nd October 2022 at 05:20 AM.

2nd October 2022, 05:20 AM	#88
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 112,544	Originally Posted by bluesjnr I was born in Scotland, as were all my siblings, I've lived here all my life apart from a few years working abroad, I wouldn't live anywhere else. When you hear me speak you'd identify me as Scottish, I'm culturally ensconced in everything Scottish. I'm Scottish. My mother was Irish and my father is English. I agree with you. My entire family on both sides are within 2 generations back in Wales, in two villages next-door to each other and all share the same surname.... yeah obviously a limited gene pool - some of my great aunts and uncles were born in Wales. But I would never consider describing myself as Welsh, it just wouldn't make any sense to me, I was born in England and raised (mostly) in England so I'm English or British. Mind you I was brought up to think that I was "born and bred" a Geordie even though we left the NE when I was 6. Even when that comes come up I would say something more like "I am a Geordie by birth" as I can't really claim an "identity" as a Geordie.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

2nd October 2022, 05:31 AM	#89
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	I read Ancestry's criteria for identifying individuals they would sample as representative of the indigenous population of a region, and in fact I would qualify for that sample pool if they needed more Scottish people for their statistics. So it's probably no great surprise that I came out 98% Scottish on their system.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

2nd October 2022, 01:03 PM	#90
Matthew Best Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 10,199	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Claiming another race here, are we?

2nd October 2022, 01:06 PM	#91
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 67,130	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Clearly when a) there have been huge social, societal and (sometimes) personal-jeopardy-related disadvantages to being black in white America, and b) a mixed-race person was/is of sufficiently light skin to conceivably pass as white.... then there was/is an obvious incentive to present as white. But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white. I'm pretty sure it's the exact same mechanism: Exploitation of perceived advantage.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

2nd October 2022, 01:08 PM	#92
arayder Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,379	But it's a whole 'nuther thing. . .real fraud. . .if pretend to be part of a group that gets a benefit, say a Native American tribe, when in fact you are not part of that group. Another example would be an actor pretending to be of a race or ethnicity a movie director was requiring for a role in order to ensure his/her notion of authenticity.
arayder Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,379	Last edited by arayder; 2nd October 2022 at 02:06 PM.

2nd October 2022, 01:16 PM	#93
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	*ensure
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

2nd October 2022, 01:22 PM	#94
arayder Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,379	Originally Posted by Rolfe *ensure My bade. Idit made. Alone these lines I have a muslim friend who swears to high heaven (can muslims do that?) that Salma Hayek has strong muslim roots and has long covered them up to get ahead in Hollywood. That would be reverse fraud, if true.
arayder Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,379

2nd October 2022, 01:36 PM	#95
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	It's the same fraud whichever way it's done. "Passing" as white is the situation that has the pedigree.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

2nd October 2022, 01:50 PM	#96
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by arayder But it's a whole 'nuther thing. . .real fraud. . .if pretend to be part of a group that gets a benefit, say a Native American tribe, when in fact you are part of that group. Did you leave out a negation here? Originally Posted by Rolfe It's the same fraud whichever way it's done. I'd say there is some asymmetry here, on account of the ridiculous one drop rule^WP. Homer Plessy didn't merely "pass" as white, the dude was literally ⅞ European American by ancestry. The idea that the remaining ⅛ determined his "race" was an exceptionally stupid social construct.
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.” Last edited by d4m10n; 2nd October 2022 at 01:58 PM.

2nd October 2022, 02:10 PM	#97
arayder Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,379	Originally Posted by d4m10n Did you leave out a negation here? Yes, I did. Should read: "But it's a whole 'nuther thing. . .real fraud. . .if pretend to be part of a group that gets a benefit, say a Native American tribe, when in fact you are not part of that group." Thanks!
arayder Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,379

2nd October 2022, 02:12 PM	#98
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	Originally Posted by d4m10n I'd say there is some asymmetry here, on account of the ridiculous one drop rule^WP. Homer Plessy didn't merely "pass" as white, the dude was literally ⅞ European American by ancestry. The idea that the remaining ⅛ determined his "race" was an exceptionally stupid social construct. In that respect, I'd say you're right. Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway?
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

2nd October 2022, 02:18 PM	#99
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by Matthew Best Claiming another race here, are we? I think of Benedict Wong as British, but on screen he's something else. Originally Posted by Rolfe Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway? Because Americans have really weird ideas about "race," which was never really a scientifically valid idea in the first place. I mean, yeah, people can usually pattern match to make a decent guess as to where most of someone's ancestors were living around 500 years ago, rounding to the nearest continent. That doesn't mean the "five races" are actually a natural category which can be extracted from a genetic dataset. So it's a social category, and "black" has been socially constructed to include basically everyone who can be read as having a bit of detectable African ancestry. This opens the door to some serious weirdness, like Dolezal (100% Euro, passing as black) or Plessy (87.5% Euro, legally black) or Obama (50% Euro, universally considered black). It's all just a stupid mess, and we should probably go w/ upbringing instead of anything else.
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.” Last edited by d4m10n; 2nd October 2022 at 02:58 PM.

2nd October 2022, 02:24 PM	#100
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 38,038	Originally Posted by arayder Yes, I did. Should read: "But it's a whole 'nuther thing. . .real fraud. . .if pretend to be part of a group that gets a benefit, say a Native American tribe, when in fact you are not part of that group." Thanks! Someone pretending to be something that they actually are would be fiendishly sneaky, though. Quote: Lambert Simnel (the Young Pretender) was really (probably) himself, but cleverly pretended to be the Earl of Warbeck. Henry VII therefore ordered him to be led through the streets of London to prove that he really was. Perkin Warbeck (the Older and more confusing Pretender) insisted that he was himself, thus causing complete dissention till Henry VII had him led through the streets of London to prove that he was really Lambert Simnel. Sellar, W. C. and Yeatman, R. J. (1930). 1066 And All That. London: Methuen & Co. Ltd
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 2nd October 2022 at 02:25 PM.

2nd October 2022, 02:26 PM	#101
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 11,679	Originally Posted by Matthew Best Claiming another race here, are we? He's claiming to be the Sorcerer Supreme of the Masters of the Mystic Arts. **** just got real!
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

2nd October 2022, 02:27 PM	#102
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 38,038	Originally Posted by d4m10n Did you leave out a negation here? I'd say there is some asymmetry here, on account of the ridiculous one drop rule^WP. Homer Plessy didn't merely "pass" as white, the dude was literally ⅞ European American by ancestry. The idea that the remaining ⅛ determined his "race" was an exceptionally stupid social construct. Race is a social construct.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

2nd October 2022, 02:27 PM	#103
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by Rolfe In that respect, I'd say you're right. Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway? Are you asking that seriously?

2nd October 2022, 02:30 PM	#104
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 11,679	Originally Posted by Mojo Race is a social construct. Humans have to agree what a social construct is, therefore it exists.
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

2nd October 2022, 03:03 PM	#105
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 731	There is a CBC documentary, came out just last week: The Pretendians https://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/epi...he-pretendians I have yet to check it out. I expect it to cover Indigeneity as related to law and policy, as well as related to cultural cachet, and who gets to define each of those things.
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 731

2nd October 2022, 03:34 PM	#106
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 11,443	Originally Posted by Rolfe Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway? In a country where there's a standard idea of the usual, any difference from the usual makes you not-the-usual.

2nd October 2022, 03:47 PM	#107
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,298	Originally Posted by d4m10n Because Americans have really weird ideas about "race," which was never really a scientifically valid idea in the first place. I mean, yeah, people can usually pattern match to make a decent guess as to where most of someone's ancestors were living around 500 years ago, rounding to the nearest continent. That doesn't mean the "five races" are actually a natural category which can be extracted from a genetic dataset. So it's a social category, and "black" has been socially constructed to include basically everyone who can be read as having a bit of detectable African ancestry. This opens the door to some serious weirdness, like Dolezal (100% Euro, passing as black) or Plessy (87.5% Euro, legally black) or Obama (50% Euro, universally considered black). It's all just a stupid mess, and we should probably go w/ upbringing instead of anything else. I agree race is socially constructed but I'm a bit curious about "never really a scientifically valid idea". Not scientifically useful? Maybe not much. And though I think 19th century naturalists often had an agenda, it couldn't all be motivated by racism could it? I think craniometrics alone reveals quite a lot about which human populations are closely linked. Dolezal is interesting she also has peculiar facial features that, with a little makeup, do make her passable as mulatta imo, if a little atypical.

2nd October 2022, 03:49 PM	#108
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 731	Originally Posted by Rolfe Why is Barack Obama always referred to as black anyway? Comedian Paul Mooney had a bit about how white Americans can't love Obama for being half white, they have to hate him for being half black.
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 731

2nd October 2022, 04:18 PM	#109
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,364	Originally Posted by porch There is a CBC documentary, came out just last week: The Pretendians https://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/epi...he-pretendians I have yet to check it out. I expect it to cover Indigeneity as related to law and policy, as well as related to cultural cachet, and who gets to define each of those things. Might be worth watching, after all, I paid for it. I just got a letter from my kid's high school inviting him to self identify as indigenous. An excerpt. Quote: The BC Ministry of Education and Child Care defines Indigenous ancestry as students who identify as First Nations, Status or Non-status, Métis or Inuit. The BC Ministry of Education and Child Care does not require proof of ancestry to self-identify. Parents and caregivers of students with Indigenous ancestry may choose to self-identify on the school registration form under the section Indigenous ancestry or by calling the school to request that they include this self-identification of Indigenous ancestry on your child’s school registration form. The IED will connect with your family annually about the opportunities that may be available at your school, in the district and/or in the community as it relates to Indigenous Education. Participation in these programs, supports and services is always voluntary. What would be the advantage? Why, university entrance of course. As a cishet white boy, he's at the back of the line when it comes to university entrance so what's to lose by mucking about in the identity politics sandbox? He doesn't even have to let his peers know that he's self ID'd as indigenous, it would just be a checked box on a form.
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,364

2nd October 2022, 04:22 PM	#110
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by Mojo Race is a social construct. Yes, but not all social constructs are equally ridiculous. Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.”

3rd October 2022, 11:41 PM	#111
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,342	Originally Posted by shemp By the way, Rachel Dolezal is now available on OnlyFans, where for $9.99 a month you can see her posing scantily clad to promote her line of lingerie products. I saw a couple of leaked photos; save your money. Were they bought on the black market?
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,342	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

4th October 2022, 01:57 AM	#112
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,770	Originally Posted by LondonJohn If mainstream psychiatry ever judges that identifying as an ethnicity other than one's ancestral ethnicity is neither a disorder nor the product of a disorder, then it will become "a thing". Until then, no it won't (in spite of your lack of understanding on how this all actually works). Is "identifying as an ethnicity other than one's ancestral ethnicity" currently considered a disorder? Does it appears in the DSM or other references? Originally Posted by LondonJohn Inane, huh? Interesting classification on your part there. Yes, inane; "lacking sense or meaning; silly". Originally Posted by LondonJohn Here, for example, is some more "inane theorising", drawing exactly the same parallel. Still, you know what's inane and not inane, so I bow down to your superior judgement.... https://welldoing.org/article/rachel-dolezal-identity Oh look, more alleged psychoanalysis without meeting the (alleged) patient. Perhaps the UK should embrace the Goldwater Rule.....
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

4th October 2022, 04:36 AM	#113
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 67,130	Originally Posted by Stout Might be worth watching, after all, I paid for it. I just got a letter from my kid's high school inviting him to self identify as indigenous. An excerpt. What would be the advantage? Why, university entrance of course. As a cishet white boy, he's at the back of the line when it comes to university entrance so what's to lose by mucking about in the identity politics sandbox? He doesn't even have to let his peers know that he's self ID'd as indigenous, it would just be a checked box on a form. What's an "IED" in this context? Whatever it is, it seems clear that the authors of the letter believe that increased participation is a higher priority right now than strict gatekeeping. This tells me that either the thing being offered isn't very valuable, or else it incorporates some perverse incentive to unethical behavior.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

4th October 2022, 07:09 AM	#114
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 11,679	Originally Posted by theprestige What's an "IED" in this context? Whatever it is, it seems clear that the authors of the letter believe that increased participation is a higher priority right now than strict gatekeeping. This tells me that either the thing being offered isn't very valuable, or else it incorporates some perverse incentive to unethical behavior. Indigenous Education Department?
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

4th October 2022, 08:35 AM	#115
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,364	Originally Posted by theprestige What's an "IED" in this context? Whatever it is, it seems clear that the authors of the letter believe that increased participation is a higher priority right now than strict gatekeeping. This tells me that either the thing being offered isn't very valuable, or else it incorporates some perverse incentive to unethical behavior. It's the Indigenous Education Department. I'm not exactly sure what it is but it looks like some sort of steering committee with an aim to increasing Indigenous knowledge and culture into the public school system. As a for instance, students will be required to complete at least two Indigenous specific courses to graduate. We're still in the process of determining whether this will have an impact on a student taking a full academic course load or taking a course load geared towards a specific area of post-secondary study. No idea why the school board went down the self ID road. We're hoping to find that out soon. I could speculate (increases in funding, "proving" a need for Indigenous content, people hiding Indigenous ancestry for whatever reason) but I don't have anything from the horse's mouth. Yet. We've got a year before we need to really deal with this. It all depends on the exact path my kid ends up shooting for. Engineering technology at community college followed by a few years working in the field or straight to university for his P.Eng.
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,364

4th October 2022, 08:38 AM	#116
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Seats Posts: 24,767	Wouldn't it take about a minute and a half for universities to spread the word that this identification is bogus, and toss any applicant claiming First Nation membership through them?
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet