[Split Thread] Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments) - Page 4

acbytesla · 10th June 2023, 05:41 PM

Interesting is just how much Donald lies to the public. During two rallies Trump has spoke about Biden's unsecure 1800 boxes of documents. A total false equivalency.

The 1800 boxes were documents that he accumulated while in the Senate. He donated them to the University of Delaware back in 2012. There is no Senator Papers Act. Senators own the papers they create. Presidents do NOT! They are governed by the Presidential Papers Act which clearly states that records and papers belong to the people. And since the investigation into Trump began the FBI went and looked at those documents. None were found with classified markings.

JoeMorgue · 10th June 2023, 06:03 PM

I have a gut feeling that Mar-a-lago is pretty much a full on show theater, a Potemkin Village at this point. You take one step outside the gilded hallways mean to show power and opulence and the thing is probably held together with duct tape.

Stacyhs · 10th June 2023, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
LOL! True!

Every reference I can find says "his bedroom, but only "a" bathroom and "a" shower. Nothing says it was in his bathroom or shower. I'm just curious where these were.

You're suspicious that they were in rooms much more easily accessible to the general public than his personal quarters, in short? If they were in a shower, specifically, that does strongly suggest that they were not in his quarters, because presumably, he would be using "his" shower.

I'm not suspicious about anything. I simply said I can find no reference to where that bathroom and shower are. As for "that does strongly suggest that they were not in his quarters, because presumably, he would be using "his" shower,": not necessarily. I'm sure his private quarters has more than one bathroom/shower.

ninja'd.

Stacyhs · 10th June 2023, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Interesting is just how much Donald lies to the public. During two rallies Trump has spoke about Biden's unsecure 1800 boxes of documents. A total false equivalency.

The 1800 boxes were documents that he accumulated while in the Senate. He donated them to the University of Delaware back in 2012. There is no Senator Papers Act. Senators own the papers they create. Presidents do NOT! They are governed by the Presidential Papers Act which clearly states that records and papers belong to the people. And since the investigation into Trump began the FBI went and looked at those documents. None were found with classified markings.

FACTS are just troublesome things that can be ignored when it comes to Trump and his cultists.

Reformed Offlian · 10th June 2023, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

more curious why he had classified documents in the shower at all

He wanted to hamper the investigation.

d4m10n · 10th June 2023, 06:51 PM

Not to mention dampen the documentation.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Stacyhs · 10th June 2023, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

more curious why he had classified documents in the shower at all

Because keeping them in the dishwasher would be a stupid idea.

Foster Zygote · 10th June 2023, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

LOL! True!

Every reference I can find says "his bedroom, but only "a" bathroom and "a" shower. Nothing says it was in his bathroom or shower. I'm just curious where these were.

I really hope that wasn't his personal toilet in the photos. Something tells me he's a splasher.

Stacyhs · 10th June 2023, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

I really hope that wasn't his personal toilet in the photos. Something tells me he's a splasher.

Lurch · 10th June 2023, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I think you got it all wrong:

if pressed, Trump supporters will admit that he stole secret information and hid it - but nothing he does matters, positive or negative. He really could shoot someone and wouldn't lose votes. And ignore the fact that the Swamp drained him, not the other way around.

At this point, he is not a candidate but a Religious Idol, a focus for their combined will for power over everyone else. They all would vote for Putin if they could and he promised to take on the Deep State.

Putin? Pshaw! They would vote for Satan himself, horns, hooves, tail and all.

Lurch · 10th June 2023, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I never denied the possibility that there is additional evidence out there. (Not everything gets reported in the media and I am sure there is some stuff Smith is keeping close to his chest.)

I'm just saying the issue of "free speech" makes conviction more difficult, and simply saying things that appeal to the MAGAchud alone would not secure a conviction. Maybe we're lucky and there is an unbroken chain of communication between Trump and the oathkeepers. (I know they tried to contact Trump....) Or maybe there are tapes that suggest he was planning for their violence. (His order to remove metal detectors at his pre-attack rally hint at that.)

Actually I pay a lot of attention, thank you very much... My opinions on the problems with the "free speech" aspect of Trump's culpability come from a youtube video by the Legal Eagle.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I know Trump and his minions have been trying to undermine democracy for years... denying that he lost, attempts to convince officials in Georgia to "find votes" (something I hope he gets nailed for soon), his role (whatever it is) in the fake electors scheme..

I am only referring to the narrow set of crimes specifically surrounding his actions regarding the Jan 6 terrorist attack. I do not doubt that he acted to inflame the crowd. I do not doubt that he WANTED chaos, and had no concerns if people were hurt/killed. The problem is making the case that he gave specific-enough directions to the crowd over what to do to charge him directly for the attack.

From a moral point of view, Trump's refusal to try calming the crowd is evidence of his guilt. The question is, from a LEGAL point of view, does failure to act count as something a person can be blamed for.

Don't overlook that some number of J6 defendants stated unequivocally that they were following the directives as they gleaned them from Trump. They were heeding his call. It beggars sensibility to disregard the statements of the criminal underlings as to whom they crimed, stringently adhering, in a hermetically sealed vaccuum, to the specific verbiage employed by the instigator. An holistic appraisal of the full picture and the dynamics is required.

a_unique_person · 10th June 2023, 08:40 PM

Plug away

Lurch · 10th June 2023, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

You're suspicious that they were in rooms much more easily accessible to the general public than his personal quarters, in short? If they were in a shower, specifically, that does strongly suggest that they were not in his quarters, because presumably, he would be using "his" shower.

If the state of his Roosevelt desk is any guide, Drumpf couldn't abide the clutter of stacks of boxes anywhere in his personal space.

TellyKNeasuss · 10th June 2023, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Counts 1-31 are Willful Retention of National Defense Information

Presumably, this means that there were 31 documents recovered from Trump that the govt. is willing to risk being exposed to the public during the trial.

Pixel42 · 10th June 2023, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Lurch

Don't overlook that some number of J6 defendants stated unequivocally that they were following the directives as they gleaned them from Trump. They were heeding his call. It beggars sensibility to disregard the statements of the criminal underlings as to whom they crimed, stringently adhering, in a hermetically sealed vaccuum, to the specific verbiage employed by the instigator. An holistic appraisal of the full picture and the dynamics is required.

They should get a few of the ones who got the longest sentences to testify under oath at Trump's trial.

Prosecutor to convicted insurrectionist: "Why did you storm the Capitol?"

Convicted insurrectionist: "Because President Trump told me to".

Norman Alexander · 10th June 2023, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lurch

If the state of his Roosevelt desk is any guide, Drumpf couldn't abide the clutter of stacks of boxes anywhere in his personal space.

That suggests he never goes near a bathroom...

quadraginta · 10th June 2023, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

I suspect the filthy Russian whore is going to do something stupid (if he doesn't off himself) and go into pretrial confinement. The dumb **** will probably not veil a direction to his followers to engage in violence and he'll get put in custody.

He's far too much of a narcissist to ever even contemplate such an action.

The Great Zaganza · 10th June 2023, 11:49 PM

I think an overlooked factor is the presence of Nauta in the indictment.

Could be that Smith wants to avoid a repeat of the Cohen verdict. in which the henchman went to prison while his crime boss and acknowledged co-conspirator went scot-free.

A pro-Trump jury would have to justify to themselves why they would give Trump a lighter sentence than Nauta, who they would happily throw under the bus.

quadraginta · 10th June 2023, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I think an overlooked factor is the presence of Nauta in the indictment.

Could be that Smith wants to avoid a repeat of the Cohen verdict. in which the henchman went to prison while his crime boss and acknowledged co-conspirator went scot-free.

A pro-Trump jury would have to justify to themselves why they would give Trump a lighter sentence than Nauta, who they would happily throw under the bus.

Can you hear yourself?

When have MAGACHUDs ever had any difficulty justifying anything to themselves, no matter how inconsistent or stupid?

Assuming they would bother in the first place, which is a bet I wouldn't even take with someone else's money.

The Great Zaganza · 11th June 2023, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss

Presumably, this means that there were 31 documents recovered from Trump that the govt. is willing to risk being exposed to the public during the trial.

And are easy for a Jury to grok how serious the crime is.

Since Trump would serve any sentence concurrently, it doesn't matter if he gets convicted for 1 or 100 willful retentions, prison -wise

Orphia Nay · 11th June 2023, 12:24 AM

Norman Alexander · 11th June 2023, 12:24 AM

Cannon got her arse thoroughly paddled by her colleagues in public the last time out involving Trump, and, as a result, desperately back-pedaled her early decisions to something between genuine legal propriety and a panicked attempt at face-saving. This despite her public pro-Trumpery position and how she was given the actual job.

So I would not expect her to come out of the gate with an instant dismissal of the case leading to Trump's glorious triumph on the courthouse steps. While she may feel like she wants that, she also knows now all eyes are on her, especially those of much more senior and learned colleagues. So one step out of a strict line of process and it could be an instant legal-profession career-limiting move. These days, with Trump being such a massive loser in public and the seriousness of the case, I suspect she values her career more than she values paying out Trump favours.

Craig4 · 11th June 2023, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

He's far too much of a narcissist to ever even contemplate such an action.

I'm not so sure. Going to prison where he is at beck and call of the staff, restricted from social media, his contact with the outside world closely limited, he might decide to go out before he is convicted in the belief his supporters will burn the country down.

Gulliver Foyle · 11th June 2023, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I don't think any of his lawyers "volunteered" any information. What happened was that the lawyers were helping him commit crimes. Doing so pierces the the attorney-client privilege...

Federal Rules of Evidence 502(d)(1): If an attorney-client relationship has been misused by a client in furtherance of a crime or fraud, there is no attorney-client privilege

The DoJ went to court and claimed this was happening, and the court ruled in their favour, resulting in the subpoenaing and deposition of his lawyer Evan Corcoran et al.

MAGA: Making Attorneys Get Attorneys

And even at that stage the lawyers didn't have to say anything. Even when offered under inducement, what the lawyers did was volunteer the information.

Anyway, my point is that what your lawyer says to a third party in an outside setting isn't privileged as they're not talking to you.

Gulliver Foyle · 11th June 2023, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

From gold plating everything, to business and personal finances, to ketchup on steak, to his hair styling, to spooging out Don Jr., wouldn't it be easier to compose a list of things he hasn't crimed?

I don't think he's either committed barratry or unlawful carnal knowledge of a goat. The second because he's still alive and his supporters wouldn't care about the first because it's admiralty law.

d4m10n · 11th June 2023, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

For those who cannot see the image properly in d4m10n's post.

Thanks for that.

Does anyone really expect J6 charges to drop from the special counsel?

Tero · 11th June 2023, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Does anyone really expect J6 charges to drop from the special counsel?

There are not really any commands to quote other than "Hang Mike pence" and the like. Everything was pretty much in the public rallies. There is no conspiracy to dig up. His mere suggestion did the trick.

Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers?

d4m10n · 11th June 2023, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Tero

Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers?

Morally, yes. Legally, the Incitement Test^WP is a steep climb for a prosecutor.

Mike! · 11th June 2023, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Tero

There are not really any commands to quote other than "Hang Mike pence" and the like. Everything was pretty much in the public rallies. There is no conspiracy to dig up. His mere suggestion did the trick.

Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers?

They wouldn't, or at least likely wouldn't, have been there at all had he not invited them in the first place, so he must bear some responsibility for their actions.

slyjoe · 11th June 2023, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Morally, yes. Legally, the Incitement Test^WP is a steep climb for a prosecutor.

Reading that, and the principle of "imminent lawless action", it doesn't seem all that steep.

Kind of like the mob bosses not explicitly saying they wanted violence done.

ETA: E.g., Trump knew there was a riotous mob at the capitol, he knew people at his crowd on the ellipse had firearms, and he urged them to go to the capitol.

newyorkguy · 11th June 2023, 07:45 AM

On the right the threats are being ramped up. Kari Lake delivered an ominous message at the Georgia Republican Convention Friday night.

She said her message was "for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden — and the guys back there in the fake news media, you should listen up as well, this one is for you.” This kind of mindless rhetoric at a Republican state convention? Convention goers cheered her.

Long gone are the days when GOP officials might have commented:

Quote:

I think the indictment is really an overreach on the part of the federal prosecutors. I look forward to former President Trump mounting a vigorous defense and ultimately being acquitted.

That kind of reasoned reply is too civilized for the thugs and barbarians who have infested today's GOP.

Armitage72 · 11th June 2023, 08:13 AM

I hate to tell her, but the NRA only has about 5% of the membership she's claiming there.

Hercules56 · 11th June 2023, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

On the right the threats are being ramped up. Kari Lake delivered an ominous message at the Georgia Republican Convention Friday night.

She said her message was "for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden — and the guys back there in the fake news media, you should listen up as well, this one is for you.” This kind of mindless rhetoric at a Republican state convention? Convention goers cheered her.

Long gone are the days when GOP officials might have commented:

That kind of reasoned reply is too civilized for the thugs and barbarians who have infested today's GOP.

I already see discussions about hypothetical violence on gun forums. If specific names or targets are mentioned I will report it to the FBI.

Trebuchet · 11th June 2023, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I think an overlooked factor is the presence of Nauta in the indictment.

Could be that Smith wants to avoid a repeat of the Cohen verdict. in which the henchman went to prison while his crime boss and acknowledged co-conspirator went scot-free.

A pro-Trump jury would have to justify to themselves why they would give Trump a lighter sentence than Nauta, who they would happily throw under the bus.

So do I. He's got to be far from the only possible co-conspirator, including most of Trump's lawyers. But he may be the only one who hasn't yet turned on Trump and provided information. I rather suspect his indictment is intended to pressure him into rolling over.

Apathia · 11th June 2023, 09:04 AM

Actually, they're going to go through Ms. Lake like a butter knife through a stick of butter left on an Arizona countertop. All she'll get is what she has now: a spread of media coverage on her burnt toast.

Alas, there will be some individual fools who'll resort to gun violence.
They'll be turkey stuffing.

Foster Zygote · 11th June 2023, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

On the right the threats are being ramped up. Kari Lake delivered an ominous message at the Georgia Republican Convention Friday night.

She said her message was "for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden — and the guys back there in the fake news media, you should listen up as well, this one is for you.” This kind of mindless rhetoric at a Republican state convention? Convention goers cheered her.

Long gone are the days when GOP officials might have commented:

That kind of reasoned reply is too civilized for the thugs and barbarians who have infested today's GOP.

******* Nazis.

Aridas · 11th June 2023, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Cannon got her arse thoroughly paddled by her colleagues in public the last time out involving Trump, and, as a result, desperately back-pedaled her early decisions to something between genuine legal propriety and a panicked attempt at face-saving. This despite her public pro-Trumpery position and how she was given the actual job.

If we're allowing MeidasTouch's claims, there's also the distinct possibility that Cannon will simply not be allowed to keep the case, given the extreme bias in favor of this defendant that she's shown before and prior precedent of judges being switched out for exactly that.

Originally Posted by slyjoe

ETA: E.g., Trump knew there was a riotous mob at the capitol, he knew people at his crowd on the ellipse had firearms, and he urged them to go to the capitol.

One can easily add that he had a hand in knowingly inciting the mob there beforehand and shaping the situation so that otherwise normal fiery language was very clearly intended to incite criminal action, in this case.

Steve · 11th June 2023, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

On the right the threats are being ramped up. Kari Lake delivered an ominous message at the Georgia Republican Convention Friday night.

She said her message was "for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden — and the guys back there in the fake news media, you should listen up as well, this one is for you.” This kind of mindless rhetoric at a Republican state convention? Convention goers cheered her.

Long gone are the days when GOP officials might have commented:

That kind of reasoned reply is too civilized for the thugs and barbarians who have infested today's GOP.

Someone should tell her that have already got to Trump.

TheGoldcountry · 11th June 2023, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

******* Nazis.

I hate Nazis.

The Great Zaganza · 11th June 2023, 11:55 AM

I think what is needed is a group of top-notch paintballers going around and hitting all these "2nd amendment solution" nutcases.

10th June 2023, 05:41 PM	#121
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,881	Interesting is just how much Donald lies to the public. During two rallies Trump has spoke about Biden's unsecure 1800 boxes of documents. A total false equivalency. The 1800 boxes were documents that he accumulated while in the Senate. He donated them to the University of Delaware back in 2012. There is no Senator Papers Act. Senators own the papers they create. Presidents do NOT! They are governed by the Presidential Papers Act which clearly states that records and papers belong to the people. And since the investigation into Trump began the FBI went and looked at those documents. None were found with classified markings.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

10th June 2023, 06:03 PM	#122
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 46,102	I have a gut feeling that Mar-a-lago is pretty much a full on show theater, a Potemkin Village at this point. You take one step outside the gilded hallways mean to show power and opulence and the thing is probably held together with duct tape.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

10th June 2023, 06:51 PM	#126
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Not to mention dampen the documentation. Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.”

10th June 2023, 07:10 PM	#128
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,271	Originally Posted by Stacyhs LOL! True! Every reference I can find says "his bedroom, but only "a" bathroom and "a" shower. Nothing says it was in his bathroom or shower. I'm just curious where these were. I really hope that wasn't his personal toilet in the photos. Something tells me he's a splasher.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

10th June 2023, 08:40 PM	#132
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 46,005	Plug away
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

10th June 2023, 06:12 PM	#123
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 32,229	Originally Posted by Aridas Quote: Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post LOL! True! Every reference I can find says "his bedroom, but only "a" bathroom and "a" shower. Nothing says it was in his bathroom or shower. I'm just curious where these were. You're suspicious that they were in rooms much more easily accessible to the general public than his personal quarters, in short? If they were in a shower, specifically, that does strongly suggest that they were not in his quarters, because presumably, he would be using "his" shower. I'm not suspicious about anything. I simply said I can find no reference to where that bathroom and shower are. As for "that does strongly suggest that they were not in his quarters, because presumably, he would be using "his" shower,": not necessarily. I'm sure his private quarters has more than one bathroom/shower. ninja'd.

10th June 2023, 06:16 PM	#124
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 32,229	Originally Posted by acbytesla Interesting is just how much Donald lies to the public. During two rallies Trump has spoke about Biden's unsecure 1800 boxes of documents. A total false equivalency. The 1800 boxes were documents that he accumulated while in the Senate. He donated them to the University of Delaware back in 2012. There is no Senator Papers Act. Senators own the papers they create. Presidents do NOT! They are governed by the Presidential Papers Act which clearly states that records and papers belong to the people. And since the investigation into Trump began the FBI went and looked at those documents. None were found with classified markings. FACTS are just troublesome things that can be ignored when it comes to Trump and his cultists.

10th June 2023, 06:32 PM	#125
Reformed Offlian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: USA Posts: 1,279	Originally Posted by dirtywick more curious why he had classified documents in the shower at all He wanted to hamper the investigation.

10th June 2023, 06:55 PM	#127
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 32,229	Originally Posted by dirtywick more curious why he had classified documents in the shower at all Because keeping them in the dishwasher would be a stupid idea.

10th June 2023, 07:16 PM	#129
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 32,229	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote I really hope that wasn't his personal toilet in the photos. Something tells me he's a splasher.

10th June 2023, 08:25 PM	#130
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,515	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza I think you got it all wrong: if pressed, Trump supporters will admit that he stole secret information and hid it - but nothing he does matters, positive or negative. He really could shoot someone and wouldn't lose votes. And ignore the fact that the Swamp drained him, not the other way around. At this point, he is not a candidate but a Religious Idol, a focus for their combined will for power over everyone else. They all would vote for Putin if they could and he promised to take on the Deep State. Putin? Pshaw! They would vote for Satan himself, horns, hooves, tail and all.

10th June 2023, 08:43 PM	#133
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,515	Originally Posted by Aridas You're suspicious that they were in rooms much more easily accessible to the general public than his personal quarters, in short? If they were in a shower, specifically, that does strongly suggest that they were not in his quarters, because presumably, he would be using "his" shower. If the state of his Roosevelt desk is any guide, Drumpf couldn't abide the clutter of stacks of boxes anywhere in his personal space.

10th June 2023, 08:53 PM	#134
TellyKNeasuss Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,092	Originally Posted by Aridas Counts 1-31 are Willful Retention of National Defense Information Presumably, this means that there were 31 documents recovered from Trump that the govt. is willing to risk being exposed to the public during the trial.
	__________________ "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan

10th June 2023, 09:16 PM	#135
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 15,952	Originally Posted by Lurch Don't overlook that some number of J6 defendants stated unequivocally that they were following the directives as they gleaned them from Trump. They were heeding his call. It beggars sensibility to disregard the statements of the criminal underlings as to whom they crimed, stringently adhering, in a hermetically sealed vaccuum, to the specific verbiage employed by the instigator. An holistic appraisal of the full picture and the dynamics is required. They should get a few of the ones who got the longest sentences to testify under oath at Trump's trial. Prosecutor to convicted insurrectionist: "Why did you storm the Capitol?" Convicted insurrectionist: "Because President Trump told me to".
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

10th June 2023, 11:03 PM	#136
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 16,174	Originally Posted by Lurch If the state of his Roosevelt desk is any guide, Drumpf couldn't abide the clutter of stacks of boxes anywhere in his personal space. That suggests he never goes near a bathroom...
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

10th June 2023, 11:43 PM	#137
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,292	Originally Posted by Craig4 I suspect the filthy Russian whore is going to do something stupid (if he doesn't off himself) and go into pretrial confinement. The dumb **** will probably not veil a direction to his followers to engage in violence and he'll get put in custody. He's far too much of a narcissist to ever even contemplate such an action.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

10th June 2023, 11:49 PM	#138
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	I think an overlooked factor is the presence of Nauta in the indictment. Could be that Smith wants to avoid a repeat of the Cohen verdict. in which the henchman went to prison while his crime boss and acknowledged co-conspirator went scot-free. A pro-Trump jury would have to justify to themselves why they would give Trump a lighter sentence than Nauta, who they would happily throw under the bus.
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

10th June 2023, 11:54 PM	#139
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,292	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza I think an overlooked factor is the presence of Nauta in the indictment. Could be that Smith wants to avoid a repeat of the Cohen verdict. in which the henchman went to prison while his crime boss and acknowledged co-conspirator went scot-free. A pro-Trump jury would have to justify to themselves why they would give Trump a lighter sentence than Nauta, who they would happily throw under the bus. Can you hear yourself? When have MAGACHUDs ever had any difficulty justifying anything to themselves, no matter how inconsistent or stupid? Assuming they would bother in the first place, which is a bet I wouldn't even take with someone else's money.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

11th June 2023, 12:05 AM	#140
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss Presumably, this means that there were 31 documents recovered from Trump that the govt. is willing to risk being exposed to the public during the trial. And are easy for a Jury to grok how serious the crime is. Since Trump would serve any sentence concurrently, it doesn't matter if he gets convicted for 1 or 100 willful retentions, prison -wise
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

11th June 2023, 12:24 AM	#141
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 44,237

11th June 2023, 12:24 AM	#142
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 16,174	Cannon got her arse thoroughly paddled by her colleagues in public the last time out involving Trump, and, as a result, desperately back-pedaled her early decisions to something between genuine legal propriety and a panicked attempt at face-saving. This despite her public pro-Trumpery position and how she was given the actual job. So I would not expect her to come out of the gate with an instant dismissal of the case leading to Trump's glorious triumph on the courthouse steps. While she may feel like she wants that, she also knows now all eyes are on her, especially those of much more senior and learned colleagues. So one step out of a strict line of process and it could be an instant legal-profession career-limiting move. These days, with Trump being such a massive loser in public and the seriousness of the case, I suspect she values her career more than she values paying out Trump favours.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; 11th June 2023 at 12:26 AM.

11th June 2023, 04:33 AM	#143
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 27,566	Originally Posted by quadraginta He's far too much of a narcissist to ever even contemplate such an action. I'm not so sure. Going to prison where he is at beck and call of the staff, restricted from social media, his contact with the outside world closely limited, he might decide to go out before he is convicted in the belief his supporters will burn the country down.
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11th June 2023, 05:05 AM	#144
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,833	Originally Posted by smartcooky I don't think any of his lawyers "volunteered" any information. What happened was that the lawyers were helping him commit crimes. Doing so pierces the the attorney-client privilege... Federal Rules of Evidence 502(d)(1): If an attorney-client relationship has been misused by a client in furtherance of a crime or fraud, there is no attorney-client privilege The DoJ went to court and claimed this was happening, and the court ruled in their favour, resulting in the subpoenaing and deposition of his lawyer Evan Corcoran et al. MAGA: Making Attorneys Get Attorneys And even at that stage the lawyers didn't have to say anything. Even when offered under inducement, what the lawyers did was volunteer the information. Anyway, my point is that what your lawyer says to a third party in an outside setting isn't privileged as they're not talking to you.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

11th June 2023, 05:14 AM	#145
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,833	Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin From gold plating everything, to business and personal finances, to ketchup on steak, to his hair styling, to spooging out Don Jr., wouldn't it be easier to compose a list of things he hasn't crimed? I don't think he's either committed barratry or unlawful carnal knowledge of a goat. The second because he's still alive and his supporters wouldn't care about the first because it's admiralty law.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

11th June 2023, 05:50 AM	#146
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by smartcooky For those who cannot see the image properly in d4m10n's post. Thanks for that. Does anyone really expect J6 charges to drop from the special counsel?
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.” Last edited by d4m10n; 11th June 2023 at 05:52 AM.

11th June 2023, 06:08 AM	#147
Tero Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 3,268	Originally Posted by d4m10n Does anyone really expect J6 charges to drop from the special counsel? There are not really any commands to quote other than "Hang Mike pence" and the like. Everything was pretty much in the public rallies. There is no conspiracy to dig up. His mere suggestion did the trick. Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers?
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11th June 2023, 06:34 AM	#148
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 11,846	Originally Posted by Tero Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers? Morally, yes. Legally, the Incitement Test^WP is a steep climb for a prosecutor.
	__________________ “Knowledge is power; France is Bacon.”

11th June 2023, 06:46 AM	#149
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 52,011	Originally Posted by Tero There are not really any commands to quote other than "Hang Mike pence" and the like. Everything was pretty much in the public rallies. There is no conspiracy to dig up. His mere suggestion did the trick. Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers? They wouldn't, or at least likely wouldn't, have been there at all had he not invited them in the first place, so he must bear some responsibility for their actions.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

11th June 2023, 06:57 AM	#150
slyjoe Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 3,634	Originally Posted by d4m10n Morally, yes. Legally, the Incitement Test^WP is a steep climb for a prosecutor. Reading that, and the principle of "imminent lawless action", it doesn't seem all that steep. Kind of like the mob bosses not explicitly saying they wanted violence done. ETA: E.g., Trump knew there was a riotous mob at the capitol, he knew people at his crowd on the ellipse had firearms, and he urged them to go to the capitol.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade Last edited by slyjoe; 11th June 2023 at 06:58 AM.

11th June 2023, 07:45 AM	#151
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 13,432	On the right the threats are being ramped up. Kari Lake delivered an ominous message at the Georgia Republican Convention Friday night. She said her message was "for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden — and the guys back there in the fake news media, you should listen up as well, this one is for you.” This kind of mindless rhetoric at a Republican state convention? Convention goers cheered her. Long gone are the days when GOP officials might have commented: Quote: I think the indictment is really an overreach on the part of the federal prosecutors. I look forward to former President Trump mounting a vigorous defense and ultimately being acquitted. That kind of reasoned reply is too civilized for the thugs and barbarians who have infested today's GOP.

11th June 2023, 08:13 AM	#152
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 8,076	I hate to tell her, but the NRA only has about 5% of the membership she's claiming there.

11th June 2023, 08:44 AM	#153
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7,535	Originally Posted by newyorkguy On the right the threats are being ramped up. Kari Lake delivered an ominous message at the Georgia Republican Convention Friday night. She said her message was "for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden — and the guys back there in the fake news media, you should listen up as well, this one is for you.” This kind of mindless rhetoric at a Republican state convention? Convention goers cheered her. Long gone are the days when GOP officials might have commented: That kind of reasoned reply is too civilized for the thugs and barbarians who have infested today's GOP. I already see discussions about hypothetical violence on gun forums. If specific names or targets are mentioned I will report it to the FBI.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7,535	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

11th June 2023, 08:56 AM	#154
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 38,281	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza I think an overlooked factor is the presence of Nauta in the indictment. Could be that Smith wants to avoid a repeat of the Cohen verdict. in which the henchman went to prison while his crime boss and acknowledged co-conspirator went scot-free. A pro-Trump jury would have to justify to themselves why they would give Trump a lighter sentence than Nauta, who they would happily throw under the bus. So do I. He's got to be far from the only possible co-conspirator, including most of Trump's lawyers. But he may be the only one who hasn't yet turned on Trump and provided information. I rather suspect his indictment is intended to pressure him into rolling over.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

11th June 2023, 09:04 AM	#155
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,974	Actually, they're going to go through Ms. Lake like a butter knife through a stick of butter left on an Arizona countertop. All she'll get is what she has now: a spread of media coverage on her burnt toast. Alas, there will be some individual fools who'll resort to gun violence. They'll be turkey stuffing.
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

11th June 2023, 11:10 AM	#156
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,271	Originally Posted by newyorkguy On the right the threats are being ramped up. Kari Lake delivered an ominous message at the Georgia Republican Convention Friday night. She said her message was "for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden — and the guys back there in the fake news media, you should listen up as well, this one is for you.” This kind of mindless rhetoric at a Republican state convention? Convention goers cheered her. Long gone are the days when GOP officials might have commented: That kind of reasoned reply is too civilized for the thugs and barbarians who have infested today's GOP. ******* Nazis.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.