IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags russia , Russia Ukraine , Russia-Ukraine war , ukraine

Reply
Old 16th August 2023, 06:26 PM   #121
pzkpfw
Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 238
Balance?

Intentionally attacking a bridge is not the same as intentionally killing civilians.

Also, (for more balance) has RT reported how many Ukrainian civilians have been killed by Russian bombs and missiles intentionally hitting civilian targets?
pzkpfw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 06:35 PM   #122
Michel H
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,398
Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
Balance?

Intentionally attacking a bridge is not the same as intentionally killing civilians.
True, but Ukraine did know there were risks for civilians using the bridge, and they went ahead nevertheless.

Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
Also, (for more balance) has RT reported how many Ukrainian civilians have been killed by Russian bombs and missiles intentionally hitting civilian targets?
They do sometimes report these kinds of accusations, generally with a pro-Russian bias. But you can find biases in Western news outlets too.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 07:06 PM   #123
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 45,984
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, I don't think so (congratulations though for using the useful concept of "credibility rating").



I believe quoting RT from time to time helps make this thread more balanced.



Their information can frequently be verified by using other sources.
If you want to know what Putin wants you to think it's useful.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 07:18 PM   #124
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 51,965
If that's what it takes to bring balance to the forum, I prefer it stay wobbly.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 07:25 PM   #125
lobosrul5
Philosopher
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 6,705
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
True, but Ukraine did know there were risks for civilians using the bridge, and they went ahead nevertheless.


They do sometimes report these kinds of accusations, generally with a pro-Russian bias. But you can find biases in Western news outlets too.
So. *******. What? Ukraine is prohibited from attacking any target where civilians might be killed or injured, while Russia can commit mass executions, torture, intentionally target children etc etc. What a warped world view you vatniks have.

Here's a hint for anyone visiting a warzone: you might die... it's a warzone.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 16th August 2023 at 07:27 PM.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 07:34 PM   #126
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 51,965
There's willful ignorance and then there's just plain stupid.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 08:22 PM   #127
pzkpfw
Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 238
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...%20constitutes

Quote:
During the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine Russia military forces have repeatedly attacked Ukrainian medical facilities and hospitals, with at least 703 attacks on Ukrainian healthcare facilities carried out by November 2022, with 144 such facilities completely destroyed by Russian strikes,[1] in what constitutes multiple instances of war crimes.
Does RT have a count for how many Russian medical facilities and hospitals Ukraine has attacked?

Balance. Ha.
pzkpfw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 09:18 PM   #128
Michel H
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,398
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
So. *******. What? Ukraine is prohibited from attacking any target where civilians might be killed or injured, while Russia can commit mass executions, torture, intentionally target children etc etc. What a warped world view you vatniks have.

Here's a hint for anyone visiting a warzone: you might die... it's a warzone.
Frankly, my impression is that the number of Ukrainian war crimes is smaller than the number of Russian war crimes (but there are some).

Basically, what makes Ukrainian policies wrong and despicable, in my opinion (besides the fact that they are (ridiculously) trying to overthrow the democratically elected government of Russia) is that they are ignoring democracy and trying to impose Ukrainian rule to pro-Russia regions, thinking that, with massive military and financial support by the West, this might somehow work.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 09:21 PM   #129
lobosrul5
Philosopher
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 6,705
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Basically, what makes Ukrainian policies wrong and despicable, in my opinion (besides the fact that they are (ridiculously) trying to overthrow the democratically elected government of Russia) is that they are ignoring democracy and trying to impose Ukrainian rule to pro-Russia regions, thinking that, with massive military and financial support by the West, this might somehow work.
We've been thru this already. It wasn't true then, and it still isn't true now.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 09:33 PM   #130
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 15,951
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Not just paranoia, the risks are real.

When Ukraine attacked the Kerch bridge on July 17, two civilians died, and their child was injured.


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime).
When are you going to list the war crimes that Russia has committed in this war?

I think most people can see the difference between the occasional civilian deaths that will inevitably occur when a country is defending itself on its own land from invaders, and the deliberate targetting of civilians by those invaders. Why can't you?
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 09:46 PM   #131
Michel H
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,398
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
When are you going to list the war crimes that Russia has committed in this war?

I think most people can see the difference between the occasional civilian deaths that will inevitably occur when a country is defending itself on its own land from invaders, and the deliberate targetting of civilians by those invaders. Why can't you?
Russia does actually have an official policy of never targeting civilians, but there seems some be some exceptions ...

Ukraine and the West have been targeting civilians in Russia through illegitimate and arrogant sanctions (the West does this a lot), and this probably goes a long way to explain Russian anger.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 10:05 PM   #132
Lukraak_Sisser
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,191
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia does actually have an official policy of never always targeting civilians, but there seems some be some exceptions ...

Ukraine and the West have been targeting civilians in Russia through illegitimate and arrogant sanctions (the West does this a lot), and this probably goes a long way to explain Russian anger.
FTFY
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 10:07 PM   #133
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 7,122
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia does actually have an official policy of never targeting civilians, but there seems some be some exceptions ...
It certainly seems so: civilians seem to be the main targets most of the time. It is funny to see the Russian hypocrisy when they find it to be war crimes when Ukrainians bomb Moscow, whereas it is completely acceptable for Russians to bomb Kyiv.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 10:36 PM   #134
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 10,407
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I believe quoting RT from time to time helps make this thread more balanced.
Balanced between fact and BS?

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Their information can frequently be verified by using other sources.
And RT has also been frequently caught lying, disinforming, pushing CTs, etc, which are all huge strikes against them. That's on top of the lack of media freedom available to them because this is Russia that we're talking about.

If it can be verified using other sources that are actually worthy of trust, try using those sources. RT will just get you ridiculed here, with excellent cause.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia does actually have an official policy of never targeting civilians, but there seems some be some exceptions ...
That's quite the incredible understatement, to start with.

A bit selective about what counts as targeting, too, after all the Russian and Ukrainian civilians that have been literally seized off the streets and then used as cannon fodder by Russia. Going a bit further, given how many of their major efforts have been pointedly targeted at harming civilians, it's outright absurd to try to use said official policy as if it deserved much other than mockery.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Ukraine and the West have been targeting civilians in Russia through illegitimate and arrogant sanctions (the West does this a lot), and this probably goes a long way to explain Russian anger.
Skipping past the utter inanity of "illegitimate and arrogant" sanctions... No. It doesn't even remotely go a long way to explaining Russian anger. At best, that offers a shallow excuse that allows some people to ignore the larger, more complicated picture at hand. A picture that, in this case, involves a lot more to do with internal Russian politics, propaganda, and forces than external forces.

It's often very tempting to try to understand what's going on in other countries and their politics using the understandings one has formed that are relevant to one's own country. It's very, very easy to make significant mistakes, though, by failing to identify which of one's implicit assumptions are not actually true when it comes to the other country.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 16th August 2023 at 10:46 PM.
Aridas is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 11:05 PM   #135
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 67,130
It's actually a war crime to commingle military and civilian activity during a war. Moscow was in the wrong the moment they decided not to close the Kerch Strait bridge to civilian traffic.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 11:23 PM   #136
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,371
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia does actually have an official policy of never targeting civilians, but there seems some be some exceptions ...

Ukraine and the West have been targeting civilians in Russia through illegitimate and arrogant sanctions (the West does this a lot), and this probably goes a long way to explain Russian anger.
Russia has a police wherever it's armed forces are involved, of deliberately targeting hospitals and medical facilities.

Or is it coincidence that they all get destroyed?
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2023, 11:59 PM   #137
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,371
Russian Colonel-General & 'Hero of Russia' Gennady Zhidko blamed for the collapse of the frontline in Kharkiv last year and fired by Putin suddenly died from an "illness" in Moscow at 57 years old. 7th Russian general to die in the 18 months-long invasion so far.
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 12:05 AM   #138
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,372
Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...%20constitutes



Does RT have a count for how many Russian medical facilities and hospitals Ukraine has attacked?

Balance. Ha.
Don't forget their use of the so-called ”double tap", which is to attack again when the rescuers are on site. It's a deliberate policy of terrorism and has been used by Russian clients as well as Russia itself.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 02:11 AM   #139
ginjawarrior
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Not just paranoia, the risks are real.

When Ukraine attacked the Kerch bridge on July 17, two civilians died, and their child was injured.
despite the fact that the kerch bridge is a legitimate military target and its destruction will save Ukrainian lives

these weren't completley nieve and innocent civillians https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineInva..._in_the_kerch/



visiting a warzone that you clearly support, for a holday might be detrimental to your health
ginjawarrior is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 02:15 AM   #140
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 67,130
I'm pretty sure at least one of them would still be alive today, if they'd been wearing a seatbelt.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 02:26 AM   #141
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,025
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
When Ukraine attacked the Kerch bridge on July 17, two civilians died, and their child was injured.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime).
Read the section of your Wikipedia link covering Legality of civilian casualties. The deaths of two civilians who happened to be using Russia's bridge to occupied Crimea at the moment when that legitimate military target was attacked by Ukraine are unfortunate but are absolutely not a war crime.

Incidentally, what do you think about the wisdom of taking a family summer holiday in occupied enemy territory during a war? Any opinion? Would you advise it?
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 02:35 AM   #142
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,025
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia does actually have an official policy of never targeting civilians, but there seems some be some exceptions ...
In terms of civilian infrastructure such as medical facilities, Russia actually has two interrelated policies; one policy of bombing hospitals and another policy of denying bombing hospitals.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 02:45 AM   #143
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,810
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Not just paranoia, the risks are real.

When Ukraine attacked the Kerch bridge on July 17, two civilians died, and their child was injured.
I figure you only care about that for the same reason other Vatniks care about those deaths, because they're Russians who died.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia does actually have an official policy of never targeting civilians, but there seems some be some exceptions ...
Such as being Chechen, or continuing to be Chechen, or Georgian, or Syrian, or Ukrainian. But outside of those exceptions Russia definitely doesn't target civilians, unless you count Wagner as Russian in which case the list also includes Central Africans and Malians. But apart from all those people they definitely don't.
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 03:04 AM   #144
Michel H
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,398
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Read the section of your Wikipedia link covering Legality of civilian casualties. The deaths of two civilians who happened to be using Russia's bridge to occupied Crimea at the moment when that legitimate military target was attacked by Ukraine are unfortunate but are absolutely not a war crime.

Incidentally, what do you think about the wisdom of taking a family summer holiday in occupied enemy territory during a war? Any opinion? Would you advise it?
In my opinion, there are some legal arguments which seem to show that Crimea belongs to Ukraine, and there are some legal arguments which seem to show that Crimea belongs to Russia.

But the most fundamental argument, in my opinion, is the right to self-determination (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination ), which is mentioned in the U.N. Charter.

This is why Ukraine's battle may be a lost cause since 2014, particularly in a political context where the West has committed many crimes (Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and so on).

The many Russians who take their vacations in Crimea are perhaps not much interested in politics, and they may watch Russian TV every day, which may shape their political opinions. Perhaps they go to Crimea because they can no longer go to Western Europe or Ukraine, or because it's less expensive than Sochi.

Ukraine's policies seem to be governed by a toxic nationalism: the leaders of Ukraine, probably with substantial support of the population, want their country large and powerful, they show very interest in what the locals think.

This kind of mentality has probably been very common throughout human history, but it must be fought, in my opinion.

Last edited by Michel H; 17th August 2023 at 04:08 AM.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 03:10 AM   #145
MarkCorrigan
¡No pasarán!
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Слава Україні
Posts: 12,732
Not this gibberish again.

Crimea. Isn't. Russian.

The. Referendum. Was. Not. Free.

The. Russians. Fixed. It.

Russia. Is. Not. A. Democracy.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 03:25 AM   #146
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,372
Talking about Crimea, Russia destroying the Kakhovka dam means that Crimea is going to be short of water.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 04:53 AM   #147
Gulliver Foyle
Master Poster
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Cork baaaiii
Posts: 2,815
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Not just paranoia, the risks are real.

When Ukraine attacked the Kerch bridge on July 17, two civilians died, and their child was injured.


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime).

RT is now reporting:

(https://www.rt.com/russia/581372-don...ilians-killed/).

RT has also recently published a report about an intelligent analysis of this conflict (and its possible solution) made by former president of France Nicolas Sarkozy:

(https://www.rt.com/news/581378-sarkozy-crimea-get-real/).
I see you're back blaming Ukraine for Russian war crimes. You do realise this isn't Stormfront, right?
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam
Gulliver Foyle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:05 AM   #148
Michel H
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,398
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
I see you're back blaming Ukraine for Russian war crimes. You do realise this isn't Stormfront, right?
There can be no question Russia has its share of responsibility in the current war.

But Ukraine's insistence on trying to defeat and humiliate Russia makes the situation worse for them.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:08 AM   #149
Gulliver Foyle
Master Poster
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Cork baaaiii
Posts: 2,815
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There can be no question Russia has its share of responsibility in the current war.

But Ukraine's insistence on trying to defeat and humiliate Russia makes the situation worse for them.
Again, your nazi propoganda does not work here. Leave it where it belongs, over at Stormfront.

Oh and Ukraine is committing crimes for defending itself from an illegal and immoral Russian invasion? Do you even read the scripts the Russian troll farms give you to disseminate?
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam
Gulliver Foyle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:09 AM   #150
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 21,574
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There can be no question Russia has its share of responsibility in the current war.

But Ukraine's insistence on trying to defeat and humiliate Russia makes the situation worse for them.
russia considers Ukraine's continued EXISTENCE a humiliation.
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:21 AM   #151
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,815
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, I don't think so (congratulations though for using the useful concept of "credibility rating").

I believe quoting RT from time to time helps make this thread more balanced.

Their information can frequently be verified by using other sources.
Well then, you should just use the other source - unless they are also Russian.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:23 AM   #152
MarkCorrigan
¡No pasarán!
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Слава Україні
Posts: 12,732
Russia Today is one of the least credible sources for anything. Doubly so when it comes to Russia itself. It's the propaganda arm of the Kremlin.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:31 AM   #153
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,815
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I am actually not a Russia fan,
Yes you are.

Quote:
I am just a simple common sense fan.
No you are not.

Quote:
There is no question that Russia, in the conflict which is discussed in this thread, enjoys some mitigating circumstances: it invaded only (mostly) Russian-speaking areas, and it set up referendums.
Russia invaded a sovereign nation. There are no mitigating circumstances, unless you count "their (the Russians') leader is a vicious evil dictator".

Quote:
One has certainly seen crazier things in history, for example when France (in the 19th century) and Germany (in the 20th) invaded Russia.
You are saying the the invading country was in the wrong in both those cases? I agree. This time the invading country is Russia.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:35 AM   #154
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,815
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There can be no question Russia has its share of responsibility in the current war.
Yes, its share is all of it.

Quote:
But Ukraine's insistence on trying to defeat and humiliate Russia makes the situation worse for them.
They are insisting that Ukraine continues to exist. It is necessary to eject Russia from Ukrainian territory for that to happen.

All the humiliation that is going on is of Russia's own making. If they weren't so utterly useless at everything, they would already have destroyed Ukraine.

Last edited by jeremyp; 17th August 2023 at 05:36 AM.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:39 AM   #155
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,810
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
But the most fundamental argument, in my opinion, is the right to self-determination (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination ), which is mentioned in the U.N. Charter.
And, as has been pointed out to you many times in the past, doesn't work the way you think it does. You ignore the actions of Russia, you ignore international jurisprudence on the matter, and then have the audacity to propose a "peace plan" that would violate Ukraine's right to self-determination.
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 05:45 AM   #156
TurkeysGhost
Penultimate Amazing
 
TurkeysGhost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
And, as has been pointed out to you many times in the past, doesn't work the way you think it does. You ignore the actions of Russia, you ignore international jurisprudence on the matter, and then have the audacity to propose a "peace plan" that would violate Ukraine's right to self-determination.
Not defending' Michel's bizarre point here, as obviously Russia is entirely to blame for initiating a war of aggression, but it's probably worth pointing out that this war is almost certainly going to end in some kind of negotiated peace. Even with endless NATO armaments Ukraine does not have endless blood to spend on this campaign, and there's plenty of evidence that available manpower is already quite strained. Best case scenario is that Ukraine is able to achieve enough militarily that they enter such a peace negotiation with the upper hand so that they have to make few if any concessions.

Even with how disastrously Russia is fighting it's hard to imagine anything close to a total withdrawal or unconditional surrender being the ending of this.
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey
TurkeysGhost is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 06:56 AM   #157
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 46,371
Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Not defending' Michel's bizarre point here, as obviously Russia is entirely to blame for initiating a war of aggression, but it's probably worth pointing out that this war is almost certainly going to end in some kind of negotiated peace. Even with endless NATO armaments Ukraine does not have endless blood to spend on this campaign, and there's plenty of evidence that available manpower is already quite strained. Best case scenario is that Ukraine is able to achieve enough militarily that they enter such a peace negotiation with the upper hand so that they have to make few if any concessions.

Even with how disastrously Russia is fighting it's hard to imagine anything close to a total withdrawal or unconditional surrender being the ending of this.
Which counties should England give up, or which states should the USA give up?
May as well get it done now and save all the shooting.
__________________
Formerly known as Captain Swoop
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 07:09 AM   #158
TurkeysGhost
Penultimate Amazing
 
TurkeysGhost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
Which counties should England give up, or which states should the USA give up?
May as well get it done now and save all the shooting.
Don't take my description of this situation as an endorsement.

How exactly do you see this war ending? Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow?
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey
TurkeysGhost is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 07:13 AM   #159
lobosrul5
Philosopher
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 6,705
Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Don't take my description of this situation as an endorsement.

How exactly do you see this war ending? Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow?
The likeliest IMO is Putin bein defenestrated by the powerful people for whom he's costing a fortune. They might try and negotiate for Crimea. Who knows. But mainly they will want the war to be done and sanctions lifted.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 17th August 2023 at 07:18 AM.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2023, 07:16 AM   #160
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,025
Advancing on Moscow isn't a Ukrainian war aim. That's more a Wagner thing. Ukraine's present war aims are roughly "Get your invading army out of our country, then we'll talk".
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:11 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.