[Continuation] The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 8 - Page 5

lobosrul5 · 17th August 2023, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

I am actually not a Russia fan, I am just a simple common sense fan.

The right to self-determination (after a careful examination) can also apply to places where Russia and China don't want it to apply, for example in Kosovo and Taiwan.

There is no question that Russia, in the conflict which is discussed in this thread, enjoys some mitigating circumstances: it invaded only (mostly) Russian-speaking areas, and it set up referendums.

One has certainly seen crazier things in history, for example when France (in the 19th century) and Germany (in the 20th) invaded Russia.

Those are completely different situations from USSR->Russia/Ukraine given even cursory examination. Hell... Taiwan is more of a metaphor for Finland-USSR.

theprestige · 17th August 2023, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Don't take my description of this situation as an endorsement.

How exactly do you see this war ending? Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow?

Ukraine has a number of fresh assault brigades that have not yet entered the fight. I see this war ending with a negotiated peace following Moscow's expulsion from Ukraine. Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow? No. Ukrainian tanks poised to roll on Belgorod? Yes.

TurkeysGhost · 17th August 2023, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Ukraine has a number of fresh assault brigades that have not yet entered the fight. I see this war ending with a negotiated peace following Moscow's expulsion from Ukraine. Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow? No. Ukrainian tanks poised to roll on Belgorod? Yes.

Are you thinking pre-war borders or Crimea too? If I were a betting man I'd think the former.

Jack by the hedge · 17th August 2023, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

The likeliest IMO is Putin bein defenestrated by the powerful people for whom he's costing a fortune. They might try and negotiated for Crimea. Who knows. But mainly they will want the war to be done and sanctions lifted.

This seems moderately likely to me. Russia is hoping to dig in until the West tires of supplying Ukraine. But Ukraine almost certainly has the will to keep resisting until something in Russia breaks, and Russia looks kinda brittle.

lobosrul5 · 17th August 2023, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

One has certainly seen crazier things in history, for example when France (in the 19th century) and Germany (in the 20th) invaded Russia.

19th century imperialism has... what precisely to do with Russia invading a sovereign country 200 years later?? Germany v USSR (NOT JUST RUSSIA) in the 1940's was one horrible ****** dictatorship invading another. We supported the USSR because they were the enemy of our enemy. This is different. We're supporting a democracy from a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. THIS SHOULD NEVER EVER BE TOLERATED. I cannot stress this enough. Freedom dies if this is allowed to keep happening. What makes you, Michel H, special in Belgium over the people of Ukraine? How about the rest of the democracies of the world say: tough **** that's you're own problem if YOU were invaded. I'm sure as **** as the Russian Navy is, they'd be powerful enough to overwhelm your nations, and put a few brigades into Antwerp.

Andy_Ross · 17th August 2023, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Don't take my description of this situation as an endorsement.

How exactly do you see this war ending? Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow?

Russia pulling back to its original border.

Andy_Ross · 17th August 2023, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Are you thinking pre-war borders or Crimea too? If I were a betting man I'd think the former.

Russia will be forced out of Crimea, yes

Michel H · 17th August 2023, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

19th century imperialism has... what precisely to do with Russia invading a sovereign country 200 years later?? Germany v USSR (NOT JUST RUSSIA) in the 1940's was one horrible ****** dictatorship invading another. We supported the USSR because they were the enemy of our enemy. This is different. We're supporting a democracy from a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. THIS SHOULD NEVER EVER BE TOLERATED. I cannot stress this enough. Freedom dies if this is allowed to keep happening. What makes you, Michel H, special in Belgium over the people of Ukraine? How about the rest of the democracies of the world say: tough **** that's you're own problem if YOU were invaded. I'm sure as **** as the Russian Navy is, they'd be powerful enough to overwhelm your nations, and put a few brigades into Antwerp.

No, I don't think Russia is really threatening Western Europe, saying such things seems to be part of Ukraine's propaganda scheme: "We are protecting you" (sic). Actually understand: "We are taking your money and raising energy prices, and creating a terrible mess, not only for ourselves but also for others".

Ukraine is very special for Russia because of a number of reasons: It was an important part of the Soviet Union, but is now trying to join NATO, it has a significant Russian-speaking minority, part of which is pro-Russian, and there is the Black Sea Fleet, located in Crimea.

I believe there is also an ugly aspect in what Russia did by invading Ukraine in 2022: they probably wanted to prove they were a major great military power, and they were seeking revenge after humiliating sanctions.

TurkeysGhost · 17th August 2023, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Russia will be forced out of Crimea, yes

Such certainty. Impressive

lobosrul5 · 17th August 2023, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

No, I don't think Russia is really threatening Western Europe, saying such things seems to be part of Ukraine's propaganda scheme: "We are protecting you" (sic). Actually understand: "We are taking your money and raising energy prices, and creating a terrible mess, not only for ourselves but also for others".

Ukraine is very special for Russia because of a number of reasons: It was an important part of the Soviet Union, but is now trying to join NATO, it has a significant Russian-speaking minority, part of which is pro-Russian, and there is the Black Sea Fleet, located in Crimea.

Underlined: RUSSIA IS NOT THE SOVIET UNION. sarcasm--> You know what, I support Ukraine taking over Russia because Kyiv was originally the capital like hundreds of years ago!!
Highlighted: GEE I WONDER WHY?
Italics: I guess you are OK if the USA invaded Canada, but only the English speaking part?
Bolded: Oh, so Russia bases their fleet in a harbor they illegally annexed so that makes it theirs in perpetuity?

Andy_Ross · 17th August 2023, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Such certainty. Impressive

How will they stop it?

lobosrul5 · 17th August 2023, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

How will they stop it?

100 successive lines of mobiks in trenches, with 100000 old Soviet mines between them? Trade 100 Russian lives for every Ukrainian soldier. Maybe stick babushkas in the trenches to demoralize the UAF? How they're going to stop Ukraine from launching an amphibious assault after the Black Sea Fleet is demolished though

TurkeysGhost · 17th August 2023, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

100 successive lines of mobiks in trenches, with 100000 old Soviet mines between them? Trade 100 Russian lives for every Ukrainian soldier. Maybe stick babushkas in the trenches to demoralize the UAF? How they're going to stop Ukraine from launching an amphibious assault after the Black Sea Fleet is demolished though

Russia has a much larger population and can afford a much higher attrition rate, so yeah, they could conceivably incur huge losses in every battle and still end up achieving victory.

For as laughably bad as they started this war, they have improved their tactics considerably. War tends to have a rapid selection where people that are really bad at it don't live very long.

TurkeysGhost · 17th August 2023, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

How will they stop it?

I imagine some guys with guns will be involved.

crescent · 17th August 2023, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Russia has a much larger population and can afford a much higher attrition rate, so yeah, they could conceivably incur huge losses in every battle and still end up achieving victory.

For as laughably bad as they started this war, they have improved their tactics considerably. War tends to have a rapid selection where people that are really bad at it don't live very long.

3.5:1 would make the loss rate equal on a per-capita basis.

But Russia tolerates very high casualty levels (for a variety of reasons). So really I think Russia could tolerate a loss ratio of as high (or higher than) 7:1 for as long as Ukraine can. (7 Rus:1 Ukr casualty)

lobosrul5 · 17th August 2023, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Russia has a much larger population and can afford a much higher attrition rate, so yeah, they could conceivably incur huge losses in every battle and still end up achieving victory.

For as laughably bad as they started this war, they have improved their tactics considerably. War tends to have a rapid selection where people that are really bad at it don't live very long.

To be serious, I do think Ukraine will likely* retake Crimea so long as "The West" keeps supplying them. However, I think Russia will collapse on the cusp of facing the loss of Crimea, and their troops will surrender. It will be a bit like the end of the Soviet-Afghani war.

*I'm not certain, more like 2 to 1 odds in favor.

lobosrul5 · 17th August 2023, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by crescent

3.5:1 would make the loss rate equal on a per-capita basis.

But Russia tolerates very high casualty levels (for a variety of reasons). So really I think Russia could tolerate a loss ratio of as high (or higher than) 7:1 for as long as Ukraine can.

We did, upthread discuss on just how much of their workforce Russia can tolerate going to their military before collapse. I'm still a bit unconvinced that its quite as bad as some posters make it... but 7 to 1? No. Russia won't be able to take those kind of casualty figures for more than a couple of years.

theprestige · 17th August 2023, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Are you thinking pre-war borders or Crimea too? If I were a betting man I'd think the former.

Crimea too.

Mike! · 17th August 2023, 09:14 AM

Once the Kerch bridge is finally FUBR, I suspect Crimea will fall pretty quickly.

Jimbo07 · 17th August 2023, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

To be serious, I do think Ukraine will likely* retake Crimea so long as "The West" keeps supplying them. However, I think Russia will collapse on the cusp of facing the loss of Crimea, and their troops will surrender. It will be a bit like the end of the Soviet-Afghani war.

*I'm not certain, more like 2 to 1 odds in favor.

IF Ukraine is able to get into a position where they can force Russia to the table on terms favourable to Ukraine, then yes, by that stage Crimea will be in play, too.

Otherwise, they just won't be able to do it and most of what is currently occupied will stay occupied.

It's going to be pretty much all or nothing from here.

For my actual prognostication:

I think Russia will be unable to sustain eventually. Having a larger population doesn't mean you can sustain an occupation indefinitely. They'll get pushed out by hook or by crook, but will never formally acknowledge a peace. You'll get a border like in the Koreas, but Russia will be brazen enough to occasionally lob a missile across the border.

gnome · 17th August 2023, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

I am actually not a Russia fan, I am just a simple common sense fan.

The right to self-determination (after a careful examination) can also apply to places where Russia and China don't want it to apply, for example in Kosovo and Taiwan.

There is no question that Russia, in the conflict which is discussed in this thread, enjoys some mitigating circumstances: it invaded only (mostly) Russian-speaking areas, and it set up referendums.

One has certainly seen crazier things in history, for example when France (in the 19th century) and Germany (in the 20th) invaded Russia.

Repetition doesn't make ridiculous claims any more true. Just exactly who do you think you're fooling?

jimbob · 17th August 2023, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

Once the Kerch bridge is finally FUBR, I suspect Crimea will fall pretty quickly.

Indeed, it's one reason to supply ATACMS, to at least put any traffic under threat of attack.

Completely changing the subject

Gennady Lopyrev who oversaw the building of one of Putin's dachas and who had been imprisoned for bribery has died of a "sudden illness"

https://www.rferl.org/a/kremlin-body.../32551991.html

And Gennady Zhidko (former commander of Russian forces in Ukraine) has died after " a long illness"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ntl/index.html

a_unique_person · 17th August 2023, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Yes, they tried to take Kiev at the beginning of their "special military operation", because they wanted to restore Viktor Yanukovych as the president of Ukraine, which they believe (with some arguments) had been illegally overthrown.

But they gave up fairly quickly, after military setbacks.

A good example of Russian common sense.

I wonder if Russian commonsense would say that Russia is better off now than it was at the start of the war,

a_unique_person · 17th August 2023, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Indeed, it's one reason to supply ATACMS, to at least put any traffic under threat of attack.

Completely changing the subject

Gennady Lopyrev who oversaw the building of one of Putin's dachas and who had been imprisoned for bribery has died of a "sudden illness"

https://www.rferl.org/a/kremlin-body.../32551991.html

And Gennady Zhidko (former commander of Russian forces in Ukraine) has died after " a long illness"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ntl/index.html

Novochok can do that to someone,

steenkh · 17th August 2023, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

We did, upthread discuss on just how much of their workforce Russia can tolerate going to their military before collapse. I'm still a bit unconvinced that its quite as bad as some posters make it... but 7 to 1? No. Russia won't be able to take those kind of casualty figures for more than a couple of years.

That depends on how many we are talking about in absolute figures. For a time now the casualties have been much lower than last year.

lobosrul5 · 17th August 2023, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by steenkh

That depends on how many we are talking about in absolute figures. For a time now the casualties have been much lower than last year.

True, although Russian casualties recently, seem to be running at about average for the length of the war.

But, I don't think Russia can sustain 7 times the number of casualties that Ukraine can potentially sustain without totally economically collapsing, and then what, they send guys armed with sharp sticks fed with raw turnips? I should've specified that more clearly.

theprestige · 17th August 2023, 01:07 PM

My sense is that Moscow very much wants this to be a war of attrition. They think they have an advantage in such a war, and they don't mind the absolute brutality such a war must visit upon their own army.

Kyiv, however, is doing their best to make it a war of erosion. Not trading lives and equipment at an exchange rate that favors Moscow in the long run, but steadily eroding Moscow's ability to wage war in Ukraine, until the hollowed-out shell of the invading army collapses and is swept away.

It remains to be seen if Ukraine can complete the work of erosion, before succumbing to Moscow's horrific calculus of attrition. Also I suspect that Moscow doesn't actually have the numbers of troops and equipment they need, to really make the attrition thing work.

lobosrul5 · 17th August 2023, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

My sense is that Moscow very much wants this to be a war of attrition. They think they have an advantage in such a war, and they don't mind the absolute brutality such a war must visit upon their own army.

Kyiv, however, is doing their best to make it a war of erosion. Not trading lives and equipment at an exchange rate that favors Moscow in the long run, but steadily eroding Moscow's ability to wage war in Ukraine, until the hollowed-out shell of the invading army collapses and is swept away.

It remains to be seen if Ukraine can complete the work of erosion, before succumbing to Moscow's horrific calculus of attrition. Also I suspect that Moscow doesn't actually have the numbers of troops and equipment they need, to really make the attrition thing work.

I was just thinking that if we don't see a major offensive by Ukraine in the next couple of weeks its not coming until at least late next spring. But, maybe thats not true. As far as attrition levels go, right now Russia has many thousands of guys sitting in trenches guarding the front... uhh how absolutely horrific is it going to be for those guys in the coming months? During the cold late autumn rains and then the freezing snowy winter. Are they going to be able to keep their soldiers on the front warm, dry, fed, and still actually there, guarding the front. They'll have to do much more rotation of men in and out of the front line and Ukraine might be able to take advantage of that. These will be men who are either recent conscripts, are have been at war since February 2022. Exhaustion and low moral is going to be a huge issue for Russia.

Michel H · 17th August 2023, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

I wonder if Russian commonsense would say that Russia is better off now than it was at the start of the war,

Objectively, I don't think Russia is better off now because of Putin's major invasion.

But some Russians are probably feeling proud because Russia has been able to enlarge the territory it controls.

There are probably even some people who believe that these kinds of things are more important than some individual lives.

crescent · 17th August 2023, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

I was just thinking that if we don't see a major offensive by Ukraine in the next couple of weeks its not coming until at least late next spring.

They've got a bit more time than that. Last year's Ukrainian counter offensives in Kharkiv and Kherson started to really move in mid/late September and ran into mid October.

It's painful to watch in real time, it feels so slow. And it might yet not succeed this year. But they've still got time.

jimbob · 17th August 2023, 03:05 PM

Russia being Russia

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia...of-dead-troops

Quote:

Russian military commissars in Crimea have reportedly come up with a new scam to get rich using the bodies of dead soldiers—by extorting the grieving family members.

That’s according to the human rights group Crimea SOS, which reported Thursday that military commissars have been lying to family members of soldiers killed in Ukraine about the whereabouts of their remains. While the bodies are already stored at a morgue in Simferopol, the group says, military officials tell families they have to pay an extra fee to have the remains retrieved from the battlefield.

Andy_Ross · 17th August 2023, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

100 successive lines of mobiks in trenches, with 100000 old Soviet mines between them? Trade 100 Russian lives for every Ukrainian soldier. Maybe stick babushkas in the trenches to demoralize the UAF? How they're going to stop Ukraine from launching an amphibious assault after the Black Sea Fleet is demolished though

They are running out of mines and men. More importantly the men are running out of a willingness to fight

Andy_Ross · 17th August 2023, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Russia has a much larger population and can afford a much higher attrition rate, so yeah, they could conceivably incur huge losses in every battle and still end up achieving victory.

For as laughably bad as they started this war, they have improved their tactics considerably. War tends to have a rapid selection where people that are really bad at it don't live very long.

You are funny

Andy_Ross · 17th August 2023, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by crescent

3.5:1 would make the loss rate equal on a per-capita basis.

But Russia tolerates very high casualty levels (for a variety of reasons). So really I think Russia could tolerate a loss ratio of as high (or higher than) 7:1 for as long as Ukraine can. (7 Rus:1 Ukr casualty)

Haha

a_unique_person · 17th August 2023, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Objectively, I don't think Russia is better off now because of Putin's major invasion.

But some Russians are probably feeling proud because Russia has been able to enlarge the territory it controls.

There are probably even some people who believe that these kinds of things are more important than some individual lives.

That is so last century.

Pixel42 · 17th August 2023, 09:32 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ive-melitopol/

Quote:

U.S. intelligence community assesses that Ukraine’s counteroffensive will fail to reach the key southeastern city of Melitopol, people familiar with the classified forecast told The Washington Post, a finding that, should it prove correct, would mean Kyiv won’t fulfill its principal objective of severing Russia’s land bridge to Crimea in this year’s push.

The grim assessment is based on Russia’s brutal proficiency in defending occupied territory through a phalanx of minefields and trenches, and is likely to prompt finger pointing inside Kyiv and Western capitals about why a counteroffensive that saw tens of billions of dollars of Western weapons and military equipment fell short of its goals.

Ukraine’s forces, which are pushing toward Melitopol from the town of Robotyne more than 50 miles away, will remain several miles outside of the city, U.S. officials said. U.S., Western and Ukrainian government officials interviewed for this report spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive military operations.

Aridas · 17th August 2023, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ive-melitopol/

The logic there looks suspicious. It's entirely plausible that Melitopol will remain in Russian hands when Ukraine's current counteroffensive culminates, of course, and even quite probable if the claim is actually "in August," as I've seen claimed is the qualification well into that article. By the look of it, though, breaking the land bridge is entirely plausible even in scenarios where it hasn't been taken. Also, the ramifications of "several miles outside the city" include that Russian logistics would be almost completely broken and the remainder easily within Ukrainian artillery fire range, provided that several was being used in a more normal sense.

As it stands, retaking Urozhaine is another step towards breaking through Russian lines and cutting off the land bridge where Russian defenses seem to be significantly weaker.

jimbob · 17th August 2023, 10:26 PM

More on bad treatment and poor morale in even supposedly elite units.

No wonder they treat everyone else badly too.

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/stat...650842624?s=20

Quote:

1/ Injuried Russian marines near Tokmak in the occupied part of Ukraine's Zaporizhzhya region were berated and beaten unconscious by their political officer when they asked for medical assistance. The incident was recorded and illustrates how Russia's political officers work. ⬇️

steenkh · 17th August 2023, 11:44 PM

Does the Russian army still use political officers?

Andy_Ross · 18th August 2023, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ive-melitopol/

Why would Ukrainian forces try to directly assault the city in the first place?
The land bridge can be cut without a protracted urban offensive. They can leave the place to wither.

17th August 2023, 07:17 AM	#161
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Originally Posted by Michel H I am actually not a Russia fan, I am just a simple common sense fan. The right to self-determination (after a careful examination) can also apply to places where Russia and China don't want it to apply, for example in Kosovo and Taiwan. There is no question that Russia, in the conflict which is discussed in this thread, enjoys some mitigating circumstances: it invaded only (mostly) Russian-speaking areas, and it set up referendums. One has certainly seen crazier things in history, for example when France (in the 19th century) and Germany (in the 20th) invaded Russia. Those are completely different situations from USSR->Russia/Ukraine given even cursory examination. Hell... Taiwan is more of a metaphor for Finland-USSR.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705

17th August 2023, 07:19 AM	#162
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 67,130	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Don't take my description of this situation as an endorsement. How exactly do you see this war ending? Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow? Ukraine has a number of fresh assault brigades that have not yet entered the fight. I see this war ending with a negotiated peace following Moscow's expulsion from Ukraine. Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow? No. Ukrainian tanks poised to roll on Belgorod? Yes.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

17th August 2023, 07:22 AM	#163
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by theprestige Ukraine has a number of fresh assault brigades that have not yet entered the fight. I see this war ending with a negotiated peace following Moscow's expulsion from Ukraine. Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow? No. Ukrainian tanks poised to roll on Belgorod? Yes. Are you thinking pre-war borders or Crimea too? If I were a betting man I'd think the former.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

17th August 2023, 07:24 AM	#165
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Originally Posted by Michel H One has certainly seen crazier things in history, for example when France (in the 19th century) and Germany (in the 20th) invaded Russia. 19th century imperialism has... what precisely to do with Russia invading a sovereign country 200 years later?? Germany v USSR (NOT JUST RUSSIA) in the 1940's was one horrible **** dictatorship invading another. We supported the USSR because they were the enemy of our enemy. This is different. We're supporting a democracy from a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. THIS SHOULD NEVER EVER BE TOLERATED. I cannot stress this enough. Freedom dies if this is allowed to keep happening. What makes you, Michel H, special in Belgium over the people of Ukraine? How about the rest of the democracies of the world say: tough that's you're own problem if YOU were invaded. I'm sure as ** as the Russian Navy is, they'd be powerful enough to overwhelm your nations, and put a few brigades into Antwerp.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Last edited by lobosrul5; 17th August 2023 at 07:28 AM.

17th August 2023, 07:46 AM	#166
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,371	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Don't take my description of this situation as an endorsement. How exactly do you see this war ending? Ukrainian tanks rolling on Moscow? Russia pulling back to its original border.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

17th August 2023, 07:23 AM	#164
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 16,025	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 The likeliest IMO is Putin bein defenestrated by the powerful people for whom he's costing a fortune. They might try and negotiated for Crimea. Who knows. But mainly they will want the war to be done and sanctions lifted. This seems moderately likely to me. Russia is hoping to dig in until the West tires of supplying Ukraine. But Ukraine almost certainly has the will to keep resisting until something in Russia breaks, and Russia looks kinda brittle.

17th August 2023, 07:47 AM	#167
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,371	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Are you thinking pre-war borders or Crimea too? If I were a betting man I'd think the former. Russia will be forced out of Crimea, yes
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

17th August 2023, 07:48 AM	#168
Michel H Banned Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,398	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 19th century imperialism has... what precisely to do with Russia invading a sovereign country 200 years later?? Germany v USSR (NOT JUST RUSSIA) in the 1940's was one horrible **** dictatorship invading another. We supported the USSR because they were the enemy of our enemy. This is different. We're supporting a democracy from a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. THIS SHOULD NEVER EVER BE TOLERATED. I cannot stress this enough. Freedom dies if this is allowed to keep happening. What makes you, Michel H, special in Belgium over the people of Ukraine? How about the rest of the democracies of the world say: tough that's you're own problem if YOU were invaded. I'm sure as ** as the Russian Navy is, they'd be powerful enough to overwhelm your nations, and put a few brigades into Antwerp. No, I don't think Russia is really threatening Western Europe, saying such things seems to be part of Ukraine's propaganda scheme: "We are protecting you" (sic). Actually understand: "We are taking your money and raising energy prices, and creating a terrible mess, not only for ourselves but also for others". Ukraine is very special for Russia because of a number of reasons: It was an important part of the Soviet Union, but is now trying to join NATO, it has a significant Russian-speaking minority, part of which is pro-Russian, and there is the Black Sea Fleet, located in Crimea. I believe there is also an ugly aspect in what Russia did by invading Ukraine in 2022: they probably wanted to prove they were a major great military power, and they were seeking revenge after humiliating sanctions.
	Last edited by Michel H; 17th August 2023 at 07:52 AM.

17th August 2023, 07:49 AM	#169
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross Russia will be forced out of Crimea, yes Such certainty. Impressive
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

17th August 2023, 07:54 AM	#170
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Originally Posted by Michel H No, I don't think Russia is really threatening Western Europe, saying such things seems to be part of Ukraine's propaganda scheme: "We are protecting you" (sic). Actually understand: "We are taking your money and raising energy prices, and creating a terrible mess, not only for ourselves but also for others". Ukraine is very special for Russia because of a number of reasons: It was an important part of the Soviet Union, but is now trying to join NATO, it has a significant Russian-speaking minority, part of which is pro-Russian, and there is the Black Sea Fleet, located in Crimea. Underlined: RUSSIA IS NOT THE SOVIET UNION. sarcasm--> You know what, I support Ukraine taking over Russia because Kyiv was originally the capital like hundreds of years ago!! Highlighted: GEE I WONDER WHY? Italics: I guess you are OK if the USA invaded Canada, but only the English speaking part? Bolded: Oh, so Russia bases their fleet in a harbor they illegally annexed so that makes it theirs in perpetuity?
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Last edited by lobosrul5; 17th August 2023 at 07:56 AM.

17th August 2023, 08:06 AM	#171
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,371	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Such certainty. Impressive How will they stop it?
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

17th August 2023, 08:10 AM	#172
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross How will they stop it? 100 successive lines of mobiks in trenches, with 100000 old Soviet mines between them? Trade 100 Russian lives for every Ukrainian soldier. Maybe stick babushkas in the trenches to demoralize the UAF? How they're going to stop Ukraine from launching an amphibious assault after the Black Sea Fleet is demolished though
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Last edited by lobosrul5; 17th August 2023 at 08:11 AM.

17th August 2023, 08:24 AM	#173
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 100 successive lines of mobiks in trenches, with 100000 old Soviet mines between them? Trade 100 Russian lives for every Ukrainian soldier. Maybe stick babushkas in the trenches to demoralize the UAF? How they're going to stop Ukraine from launching an amphibious assault after the Black Sea Fleet is demolished though Russia has a much larger population and can afford a much higher attrition rate, so yeah, they could conceivably incur huge losses in every battle and still end up achieving victory. For as laughably bad as they started this war, they have improved their tactics considerably. War tends to have a rapid selection where people that are really bad at it don't live very long.
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17th August 2023, 08:26 AM	#174
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross How will they stop it? I imagine some guys with guns will be involved.
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17th August 2023, 08:35 AM	#175
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,589	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Russia has a much larger population and can afford a much higher attrition rate, so yeah, they could conceivably incur huge losses in every battle and still end up achieving victory. For as laughably bad as they started this war, they have improved their tactics considerably. War tends to have a rapid selection where people that are really bad at it don't live very long. 3.5:1 would make the loss rate equal on a per-capita basis. But Russia tolerates very high casualty levels (for a variety of reasons). So really I think Russia could tolerate a loss ratio of as high (or higher than) 7:1 for as long as Ukraine can. (7 Rus:1 Ukr casualty)
	Last edited by crescent; 17th August 2023 at 08:41 AM.

17th August 2023, 08:36 AM	#176
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Russia has a much larger population and can afford a much higher attrition rate, so yeah, they could conceivably incur huge losses in every battle and still end up achieving victory. For as laughably bad as they started this war, they have improved their tactics considerably. War tends to have a rapid selection where people that are really bad at it don't live very long. To be serious, I do think Ukraine will likely* retake Crimea so long as "The West" keeps supplying them. However, I think Russia will collapse on the cusp of facing the loss of Crimea, and their troops will surrender. It will be a bit like the end of the Soviet-Afghani war. *I'm not certain, more like 2 to 1 odds in favor.
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17th August 2023, 08:38 AM	#177
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Originally Posted by crescent 3.5:1 would make the loss rate equal on a per-capita basis. But Russia tolerates very high casualty levels (for a variety of reasons). So really I think Russia could tolerate a loss ratio of as high (or higher than) 7:1 for as long as Ukraine can. We did, upthread discuss on just how much of their workforce Russia can tolerate going to their military before collapse. I'm still a bit unconvinced that its quite as bad as some posters make it... but 7 to 1? No. Russia won't be able to take those kind of casualty figures for more than a couple of years.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Last edited by lobosrul5; 17th August 2023 at 08:47 AM.

17th August 2023, 08:54 AM	#178
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 67,130	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Are you thinking pre-war borders or Crimea too? If I were a betting man I'd think the former. Crimea too.
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17th August 2023, 09:14 AM	#179
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 51,965	Once the Kerch bridge is finally FUBR, I suspect Crimea will fall pretty quickly.
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17th August 2023, 09:20 AM	#180
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,464	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 To be serious, I do think Ukraine will likely* retake Crimea so long as "The West" keeps supplying them. However, I think Russia will collapse on the cusp of facing the loss of Crimea, and their troops will surrender. It will be a bit like the end of the Soviet-Afghani war. *I'm not certain, more like 2 to 1 odds in favor. IF Ukraine is able to get into a position where they can force Russia to the table on terms favourable to Ukraine, then yes, by that stage Crimea will be in play, too. Otherwise, they just won't be able to do it and most of what is currently occupied will stay occupied. It's going to be pretty much all or nothing from here. For my actual prognostication: I think Russia will be unable to sustain eventually. Having a larger population doesn't mean you can sustain an occupation indefinitely. They'll get pushed out by hook or by crook, but will never formally acknowledge a peace. You'll get a border like in the Koreas, but Russia will be brazen enough to occasionally lob a missile across the border.
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17th August 2023, 09:45 AM	#181
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,481	Originally Posted by Michel H I am actually not a Russia fan, I am just a simple common sense fan. The right to self-determination (after a careful examination) can also apply to places where Russia and China don't want it to apply, for example in Kosovo and Taiwan. There is no question that Russia, in the conflict which is discussed in this thread, enjoys some mitigating circumstances: it invaded only (mostly) Russian-speaking areas, and it set up referendums. One has certainly seen crazier things in history, for example when France (in the 19th century) and Germany (in the 20th) invaded Russia. Repetition doesn't make ridiculous claims any more true. Just exactly who do you think you're fooling?
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17th August 2023, 10:02 AM	#182
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 31,372	Originally Posted by Mike! Once the Kerch bridge is finally FUBR, I suspect Crimea will fall pretty quickly. Indeed, it's one reason to supply ATACMS, to at least put any traffic under threat of attack. Completely changing the subject Gennady Lopyrev who oversaw the building of one of Putin's dachas and who had been imprisoned for bribery has died of a "sudden illness" https://www.rferl.org/a/kremlin-body.../32551991.html And Gennady Zhidko (former commander of Russian forces in Ukraine) has died after " a long illness" https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ntl/index.html
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17th August 2023, 10:19 AM	#183
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 45,984	Originally Posted by Michel H Yes, they tried to take Kiev at the beginning of their "special military operation", because they wanted to restore Viktor Yanukovych as the president of Ukraine, which they believe (with some arguments) had been illegally overthrown. But they gave up fairly quickly, after military setbacks. A good example of Russian common sense. I wonder if Russian commonsense would say that Russia is better off now than it was at the start of the war,
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17th August 2023, 10:20 AM	#184
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 45,984	Originally Posted by jimbob Indeed, it's one reason to supply ATACMS, to at least put any traffic under threat of attack. Completely changing the subject Gennady Lopyrev who oversaw the building of one of Putin's dachas and who had been imprisoned for bribery has died of a "sudden illness" https://www.rferl.org/a/kremlin-body.../32551991.html And Gennady Zhidko (former commander of Russian forces in Ukraine) has died after " a long illness" https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ntl/index.html Novochok can do that to someone,
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17th August 2023, 12:40 PM	#185
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,122	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 We did, upthread discuss on just how much of their workforce Russia can tolerate going to their military before collapse. I'm still a bit unconvinced that its quite as bad as some posters make it... but 7 to 1? No. Russia won't be able to take those kind of casualty figures for more than a couple of years. That depends on how many we are talking about in absolute figures. For a time now the casualties have been much lower than last year.
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17th August 2023, 12:44 PM	#186
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Originally Posted by steenkh That depends on how many we are talking about in absolute figures. For a time now the casualties have been much lower than last year. True, although Russian casualties recently, seem to be running at about average for the length of the war. But, I don't think Russia can sustain 7 times the number of casualties that Ukraine can potentially sustain without totally economically collapsing, and then what, they send guys armed with sharp sticks fed with raw turnips? I should've specified that more clearly.
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17th August 2023, 01:07 PM	#187
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 67,130	My sense is that Moscow very much wants this to be a war of attrition. They think they have an advantage in such a war, and they don't mind the absolute brutality such a war must visit upon their own army. Kyiv, however, is doing their best to make it a war of erosion. Not trading lives and equipment at an exchange rate that favors Moscow in the long run, but steadily eroding Moscow's ability to wage war in Ukraine, until the hollowed-out shell of the invading army collapses and is swept away. It remains to be seen if Ukraine can complete the work of erosion, before succumbing to Moscow's horrific calculus of attrition. Also I suspect that Moscow doesn't actually have the numbers of troops and equipment they need, to really make the attrition thing work.
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17th August 2023, 01:18 PM	#188
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,705	Originally Posted by theprestige My sense is that Moscow very much wants this to be a war of attrition. They think they have an advantage in such a war, and they don't mind the absolute brutality such a war must visit upon their own army. Kyiv, however, is doing their best to make it a war of erosion. Not trading lives and equipment at an exchange rate that favors Moscow in the long run, but steadily eroding Moscow's ability to wage war in Ukraine, until the hollowed-out shell of the invading army collapses and is swept away. It remains to be seen if Ukraine can complete the work of erosion, before succumbing to Moscow's horrific calculus of attrition. Also I suspect that Moscow doesn't actually have the numbers of troops and equipment they need, to really make the attrition thing work. I was just thinking that if we don't see a major offensive by Ukraine in the next couple of weeks its not coming until at least late next spring. But, maybe thats not true. As far as attrition levels go, right now Russia has many thousands of guys sitting in trenches guarding the front... uhh how absolutely horrific is it going to be for those guys in the coming months? During the cold late autumn rains and then the freezing snowy winter. Are they going to be able to keep their soldiers on the front warm, dry, fed, and still actually there, guarding the front. They'll have to do much more rotation of men in and out of the front line and Ukraine might be able to take advantage of that. These will be men who are either recent conscripts, are have been at war since February 2022. Exhaustion and low moral is going to be a huge issue for Russia.
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17th August 2023, 01:30 PM	#189
Michel H Banned Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,398	Originally Posted by a_unique_person I wonder if Russian commonsense would say that Russia is better off now than it was at the start of the war, Objectively, I don't think Russia is better off now because of Putin's major invasion. But some Russians are probably feeling proud because Russia has been able to enlarge the territory it controls. There are probably even some people who believe that these kinds of things are more important than some individual lives.

17th August 2023, 01:43 PM	#190
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,589	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 I was just thinking that if we don't see a major offensive by Ukraine in the next couple of weeks its not coming until at least late next spring. They've got a bit more time than that. Last year's Ukrainian counter offensives in Kharkiv and Kherson started to really move in mid/late September and ran into mid October. It's painful to watch in real time, it feels so slow. And it might yet not succeed this year. But they've still got time.

17th August 2023, 03:05 PM	#191
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 31,372	Russia being Russia https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia...of-dead-troops Quote: Russian military commissars in Crimea have reportedly come up with a new scam to get rich using the bodies of dead soldiers—by extorting the grieving family members. That’s according to the human rights group Crimea SOS, which reported Thursday that military commissars have been lying to family members of soldiers killed in Ukraine about the whereabouts of their remains. While the bodies are already stored at a morgue in Simferopol, the group says, military officials tell families they have to pay an extra fee to have the remains retrieved from the battlefield.
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17th August 2023, 03:21 PM	#192
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,371	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 100 successive lines of mobiks in trenches, with 100000 old Soviet mines between them? Trade 100 Russian lives for every Ukrainian soldier. Maybe stick babushkas in the trenches to demoralize the UAF? How they're going to stop Ukraine from launching an amphibious assault after the Black Sea Fleet is demolished though They are running out of mines and men. More importantly the men are running out of a willingness to fight
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17th August 2023, 03:22 PM	#193
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,371	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Russia has a much larger population and can afford a much higher attrition rate, so yeah, they could conceivably incur huge losses in every battle and still end up achieving victory. For as laughably bad as they started this war, they have improved their tactics considerably. War tends to have a rapid selection where people that are really bad at it don't live very long. You are funny
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17th August 2023, 03:22 PM	#194
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,371	Originally Posted by crescent 3.5:1 would make the loss rate equal on a per-capita basis. But Russia tolerates very high casualty levels (for a variety of reasons). So really I think Russia could tolerate a loss ratio of as high (or higher than) 7:1 for as long as Ukraine can. (7 Rus:1 Ukr casualty) Haha
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17th August 2023, 08:29 PM	#195
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 45,984	Originally Posted by Michel H Objectively, I don't think Russia is better off now because of Putin's major invasion. But some Russians are probably feeling proud because Russia has been able to enlarge the territory it controls. There are probably even some people who believe that these kinds of things are more important than some individual lives. That is so last century.
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