How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas?

Shadowdweller · 8th October 2023, 02:37 AM

Just curious what you all think? Beyond the air/rocket strikes, unless you think that's all? I suspect it's going to be brutal. And indiscriminate.

Norman Alexander · 8th October 2023, 03:04 AM

How? Brutally.

Shadowdweller · 8th October 2023, 03:23 AM

Well, we're in agreement on that score

Not to mention that Netanyahu has already promised as much. But what specifically do you think they're going to do? Invade Gaza? Or...? And...?

Oystein · 8th October 2023, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

Just curious what you all think? Beyond the air/rocket strikes, unless you think that's all? I suspect it's going to be brutal. And indiscriminate.

As the Hamas terror attack was, and continues to be, exceedingly brutal (what with the targeted attacks, abuse and killing of civilians), I agree we can expect Israel's response to be very violent, too.

But NOT indiscriminate.

Rather, it will be very discriminate.

Israel will target Hamas militants, Hamas leadership, those who make weapons for Hamas, those who shelter Hamas leadership.

Israel will NOT target civilians
Israel will NOT kidnap cilvilians
Israel will NOT torture or rape civilians
Israel will NOT rob civilians
Israel will NOT murder captured civilians nor dance on their mutilated bodies.

Since that behaviour on Hamas' part is aptly called "brutal", I think it is fair to predict that Israel's response, while violent, will not be brutal.

Shadowdweller · 8th October 2023, 04:20 AM

Gaza is one of the more densely populated areas on earth. ANY military action taken there is going to result in mass civilian casualties regardless of whether one believes it to be justified or not; or what it's in response to. Nature of the beast. Hundreds are ALREADY reported dead from Israeli retaliatory strikes to the best of my personal knowledge. And I don't think they've even really gotten started. No, this doesn't make Hamas nice people by comparison; nor does it excuse or justify the kidnappings and attacks against Israel. I'm not personally interested in debating or comparing the morality of this, just curious about what people think is going to happen. Feel free to do so, of course, if that's YOUR thing.

The Great Zaganza · 8th October 2023, 04:35 AM

Who is or isn't a "civilian" will be entirely up to Israel's discretion .

PitPat · 8th October 2023, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

As the Hamas terror attack was, and continues to be, exceedingly brutal (what with the targeted attacks, abuse and killing of civilians), I agree we can expect Israel's response to be very violent, too.

But NOT indiscriminate.

Rather, it will be very discriminate.

Israel will target Hamas militants, Hamas leadership, those who make weapons for Hamas, those who shelter Hamas leadership.

Israel will NOT target civilians
Israel will NOT kidnap cilvilians
Israel will NOT torture or rape civilians
Israel will NOT rob civilians
Israel will NOT murder captured civilians nor dance on their mutilated bodies.

Since that behaviour on Hamas' part is aptly called "brutal", I think it is fair to predict that Israel's response, while violent, will not be brutal.

They did request that Gazans who would rather not be a part of this conflict flee their homes and find someplace to hide away for awhile (at their many locations on the strip where Hamas is not around.) Kind of a giveaway about what's going to happen. Just go to your dad's house on the coast, right?

Not seeing a good outcome out of this.

Oystein · 8th October 2023, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

Gaza is one of the more densely populated areas on earth. ANY military action taken there is going to result in mass civilian casualties regardless of whether one believes it to be justified or not; or what it's in response to. Nature of the beast. Hundreds are ALREADY reported dead from Israeli retaliatory strikes to the best of my personal knowledge.

Last I read was Hamas sources claiming 313. A curiously precise number.
Is that the extent of your "personal knowledge"?
Do you know who or what those 313 are?
Hamas already admitted that one of their military leaders is among them.
Several more undreds Palestinians are probably dead by now because they attacked Israel with weapon in and were killed by defense forces.

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

And I don't think they've even really gotten started. No, this doesn't make Hamas nice people by comparison; nor does it excuse or justify the kidnappings and attacks against Israel. I'm not personally interested in debating or comparing the morality of this, just curious about what people think is going to happen.

As Hamas is an organized armed force that illegally attacked another country, the attacked country is entirely in their right to go after said armed force with a view to beating that armed force (killing its armed fighers and its leadership).
If the leaders of the illegal attackers illegally hide their command posts in civilian buildings and among civilian neighborhoods, the fault if civilians get killed by striked against them is entirely on them, those cowardly bastards.

Oystein · 8th October 2023, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by PitPat

They did request that Gazans who would rather not be a part of this conflict flee their homes and find someplace to hide away for awhile (at their many locations on the strip where Hamas is not around.) Kind of a giveaway about what's going to happen. Just go to your dad's house on the coast, right?

Israel routinely employs a practice called "knocking on the roof", whereby they warn people inside a target (say, a highrise building) via radio, leaflets, even drone-assisted PA, telling them to flee; then drop a couple of grenades on the roof to signal even to those who didn't get the warning that this is no longer a safe space; and only then, when enough time has passed for evacuation, will they finally deliver the strike that destroys the target.
This works for buildings that contain a target that's a thing. A communiations installation; an ammo storage; a weapons factory; a signal intelligence facility.
Probably not employed when the target is Hamas officers.

Yes, this is all rather cynical in a place as cramped and overpopulated as the Gaza. Where anyone following Israel's advice could become a target of Hamas wrath.

Originally Posted by PitPat

Not seeing a good outcome out of this.

Neither do I.

PitPat · 8th October 2023, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

Israel routinely employs a practice called "knocking on the roof", whereby they warn people inside a target (say, a highrise building) via radio, leaflets, even drone-assisted PA, telling them to flee; then drop a couple of grenades on the roof to signal even to those who didn't get the warning that this is no longer a safe space; and only then, when enough time has passed for evacuation, will they finally deliver the strike that destroys the target.
This works for buildings that contain a target that's a thing. A communiations installation; an ammo storage; a weapons factory; a signal intelligence facility.
Probably not employed when the target is Hamas officers.

Yes, this is all rather cynical in a place as cramped and overpopulated as the Gaza. Where anyone following Israel's advice could become a target of Hamas wrath.

Neither do I.

Don't disagree, I don't think Israel is targeting innocent Palestinians. So far they're resisting the call to arms, and are probably pissed off about it (which Fox news seems to be conflating with Hamas).

There was the IDF spokesperson who said something like "There may be some difficult things to see in the coming days, but just remember how this started." Pretty sure it wasn't about 1948.

The Great Zaganza · 8th October 2023, 05:19 AM

Well, the IDF has killed a journalist with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever.

Oystein · 8th October 2023, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Well, the IDF has killed a journalist with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever.

Claimed with no supporting context or sources whatsoever.

The Great Zaganza · 8th October 2023, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

Claimed with no supporting context or sources whatsoever.

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/11754...led-a-year-ago

I thought this was common knowledge

Garrison · 8th October 2023, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

Just curious what you all think? Beyond the air/rocket strikes, unless you think that's all? I suspect it's going to be brutal. And indiscriminate.

Given the hostage situation they are going to send in ground troops, which unfortunately is probably exactly what Hamas is expecting. Remember Hamas doesn't give a damn about how many Palestinian civilians die and when this does end, they will simply retreat into the shadows and plan for the next round.

Shadowdweller · 8th October 2023, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Garrison

Given the hostage situation they are going to send in ground troops, which unfortunately is probably exactly what Hamas is expecting. Remember Hamas doesn't give a damn about how many Palestinian civilians die and when this does end, they will simply retreat into the shadows and plan for the next round.

So do you think the IDF sends ground forces in, tries to free hostages, kills or captures a bunch of Hamas militants and/or destroys affiliated infrastructure and then... pulls out of Gaza again? Or...?

sackett · 8th October 2023, 07:09 AM

As for Mr. I Be Not A Yahoo, he's just demonstrating what happens when a right wing jerk stays in power too long.

A very short time is too damn long.

trustbutverify · 8th October 2023, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

Just curious what you all think? Beyond the air/rocket strikes, unless you think that's all? I suspect it's going to be brutal. And indiscriminate.

I expect an Israeli response as brutal and indiscriminate as the Hamas provocation. The difference being the IDF will be wearing uniforms to differentiate them from unarmed civilians, and it won't be a sneak attack.

Dr.Sid · 8th October 2023, 08:21 AM

You can't avoid civilian victims in Gaza. They will be warned, and they won't be the primary target. But this time, that's it.

Hercules56 · 8th October 2023, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

You can't avoid civilian victims in Gaza. They will be warned, and they won't be the primary target. But this time, that's it.

Hamas wants civilian casualties, on their side. They think it makes good pro-Pal optics. They hope it will lead to a general massive Palestinian uprising, which will cause Israel to use a heavy hand, and the Arab nations will invade and destroy Israel aka "Liberate Palestine".

It won't happen. Hamas is driven by irrational and illogical reasoning, with an insane religious basis.

crescent · 8th October 2023, 09:30 AM

The hostages are such a complicating factor. Last report I saw on CNN's webpage suggested that Hamas has at least 166 hostages. Some are military service members (both men and women), but they also have kids, old people, even some entire families.

And some are foreign citizens, although I don't know if that means they are exclusively foreign or dual citizen. At least one German national, for example.

And they'll distribute them all around Gaza in singles and pairs. Not keep them all lumped together where Israel can rescue them all in a single raid. And move them around often such that by the time Israel learns of some of the locations, the hostages will already have been moved to new locations.

Israel is very, very angry. This is being compared to a 9-11 level event for them. And Israel has a very effective military. Israel doesn't target Palestinian civilians and goes to some lengths to prevent that, but does accept that a fair bit of collateral damage among Palestinian civilians happens anyway due to dense living conditions and a wide grey line between combatant and non-combatant Palestinian people.

But Israel also has a history of going to great lengths to prevent harm to its own people. In 2006 Hamas captured one single Israeli soldier (Gilad Shalit). Israel raided Hamas to get him back but didn't succeed. They then spend five years negotiating with Hamas and eventually exchanged Shalit for 1000 Palestinians in Israeli custody.

So Israel is not going to go in so kinetic that they start accidentally killing hostages. And with those hostages distributed throughout the strip and being moved around, that will be a pretty severe limitation on the use of Israeli military force.

ETA To add to this: Israeli settlers in the West Bank are probably just itching to use this as an excuse to start something there. Not that the settlers ever need much motivation to be ******** in every way possible to the Palestinians around them. That could be enough motivation to draw in Hezbollah, a much more dangerous enemy than Hamas could ever be.

Norman Alexander · 8th October 2023, 09:30 AM

Alas, I suspect Israel will raze Gaza almost to the ground, then occupy it permanently. Then build new Israeli settlements by the sea.

PitPat · 8th October 2023, 09:56 AM

Only if they want recruit 5x more of their enemies they already have. Not a friendly neighborhood.

Steve · 8th October 2023, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I also want to point out the cowardice of comments of political leaders about this conflict, these unrightous are of no interest for the future of your country.

You say "political" and then try to hang religious attributes on them. Perhaps you are confusing them with Hamas leaders?

carlosy · 8th October 2023, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Muhammad Al-Deif, the Hamas military commander, called for a general uprising against Israel in a recorded message on Saturday.

“If you have a gun, get it out. This is the time to use it – get out with trucks, cars, axes. Today the best and most honorable history starts.”

Would'nt it be the time now for the regular Gaza residents to take matters in their own hands, get guns and axes and chase those Hamas ******* into the see, once and for all?!

They all know pretty well, that this barbaric attack in Israel will only lead to massive pain for everyone in Gaza.

Gulliver Foyle · 8th October 2023, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

As the Hamas terror attack was, and continues to be, exceedingly brutal (what with the targeted attacks, abuse and killing of civilians), I agree we can expect Israel's response to be very violent, too.

But NOT indiscriminate.

Rather, it will be very discriminate.

Israel will target Hamas militants, Hamas leadership, those who make weapons for Hamas, those who shelter Hamas leadership.

Israel will NOT target civilians
Israel will NOT kidnap cilvilians
Israel will NOT torture or rape civilians
Israel will NOT rob civilians
Israel will NOT murder captured civilians nor dance on their mutilated bodies.

Since that behaviour on Hamas' part is aptly called "brutal", I think it is fair to predict that Israel's response, while violent, will not be brutal.

Given that this is contrary to Israeli tactics since 1948, I very much doubt we're going to see them be discriminate at any point in the future.

Gaetan · 8th October 2023, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

You say "political" and then try to hang religious attributes on them. Perhaps you are confusing them with Hamas leaders?

I support the Palestinians because they are treated unfairly, if the Israelis were in the same situation as the Palestinians I would support the Israelis

catsmate · 8th October 2023, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

You say "political" and then try to hang religious attributes on them. Perhaps you are confusing them with Hamas leaders?

Are you unfamiliar with the role of religious parties in Israeli government?

Steve · 8th October 2023, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Are you unfamiliar with the role of religious parties in Israeli government?

I commented on Gaetan's post which made no mention of the government of Israel. If Gaetan wishes to clarify which political leaders he was referring to I may modify my comments. Until such time it is my understanding that he is referring to political leaders he has previously named - Netanyahu, Biden, Macron and Trudeau - as collectively being "unrighteous".

lionking · 8th October 2023, 12:12 PM

Sorry to get all biblical, but:

For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind..

Gaza will be largely destroyed.

Gaetan · 8th October 2023, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

I commented on Gaetan's post which made no mention of the government of Israel. If Gaetan wishes to clarify which political leaders he was referring to I may modify my comments. Until such time it is my understanding that he is referring to political leaders he has previously named - Netanyahu, Biden, Macron and Trudeau - as collectively being "unrighteous".

Like and many others

Shalamar · 8th October 2023, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Like and many others

No

trustbutverify · 8th October 2023, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

We know that you are a lier working for Joe Biden and making comments on any posts.

Who's "we"?

lobosrul5 · 8th October 2023, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Who's "we"?

Him, and his 72 poop fairies

Oystein · 8th October 2023, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/11754...led-a-year-ago

I thought this was common knowledge

The article does not support your claim of "no mitigating circumstances whatsoever".
I thought you were talking about a current event.

angrysoba · 8th October 2023, 03:15 PM

Presumably Israel will seek revenge, deterrence and a return of their citizens taken hostage.

So, I imagine they will invade Gaza.

Dr.Sid · 8th October 2023, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Presumably Israel will seek revenge, deterrence and a return of their citizens taken hostage.

So, I imagine they will invade Gaza.

I also expect some moves against Iran and Lebanon. With US support, even participation. With Russia supporting Iran it already has ties to Ukraine war.
It has a potential to be big.

pzkpfw · 8th October 2023, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

I also expect some moves against Iran and Lebanon. With US support, even participation. With Russia supporting Iran it already has ties to Ukraine war.
It has a potential to be big.

I've seen a fairly well regarded commentator on X claiming it "must have been" Russia that taught * Hamas to use the drones the way they do. And some of the jamming that was done must have used some good tech that came from somewhere.

If any link to Russia does come up, yes, it'll get messy.

Which makes me think of the right-wing-religious types in the U.S. who support Israel because they think the end times and second coming starts there. And I'm sure I've read that Russia is tied up in some of those fantasies, so they must be "happy" ...

(* personally I'm not sure anyone needed more than to watch footage from Ukraine.)

dudalb · 8th October 2023, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Presumably Israel will seek revenge, deterrence and a return of their citizens taken hostage.

So, I imagine they will invade Gaza.

The troops are masisng now.
Just saw footage of the hostages being parading though GAZA.
Disgusting.
What this had done is kill a lot the mianstream suppport the Palestinains were getting.
Imn the US, the divist movment is dead.

dudalb · 8th October 2023, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

I also expect some moves against Iran and Lebanon. With US support, even participation. With Russia supporting Iran it already has ties to Ukraine war.
It has a potential to be big.

If the reports that US Citiznes have been taken hostage, look to the US to get directly involved.

dudalb · 8th October 2023, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Him, and his 72 poop fairies

And his brilliant idea for getting rid of money....

8th October 2023, 02:37 AM	#1
Shadowdweller Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,381	How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas? Just curious what you all think? Beyond the air/rocket strikes, unless you think that's all? I suspect it's going to be brutal. And indiscriminate.
	__________________ Might I posit that individuals who regularly endorse murderers or child rapists might not actually be interested in good faith discussions? Far be it for me to judge another's non-harmful past time; but I personally find more enjoyment and productivity in activities that do not involve feeding bridge-dwellers, flogging dead equines, or trying to debate stones. Last edited by Shadowdweller; 8th October 2023 at 02:59 AM.

8th October 2023, 03:04 AM	#2
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 16,174	How? Brutally.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

8th October 2023, 03:23 AM	#3
Shadowdweller Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,381	Well, we're in agreement on that score Not to mention that Netanyahu has already promised as much. But what specifically do you think they're going to do? Invade Gaza? Or...? And...?
	__________________ Might I posit that individuals who regularly endorse murderers or child rapists might not actually be interested in good faith discussions? Far be it for me to judge another's non-harmful past time; but I personally find more enjoyment and productivity in activities that do not involve feeding bridge-dwellers, flogging dead equines, or trying to debate stones. Last edited by Shadowdweller; 8th October 2023 at 03:25 AM.

8th October 2023, 04:00 AM	#4
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,644	Originally Posted by Shadowdweller Just curious what you all think? Beyond the air/rocket strikes, unless you think that's all? I suspect it's going to be brutal. And indiscriminate. As the Hamas terror attack was, and continues to be, exceedingly brutal (what with the targeted attacks, abuse and killing of civilians), I agree we can expect Israel's response to be very violent, too. But NOT indiscriminate. Rather, it will be very discriminate. Israel will target Hamas militants, Hamas leadership, those who make weapons for Hamas, those who shelter Hamas leadership. Israel will NOT target civilians Israel will NOT kidnap cilvilians Israel will NOT torture or rape civilians Israel will NOT rob civilians Israel will NOT murder captured civilians nor dance on their mutilated bodies. Since that behaviour on Hamas' part is aptly called "brutal", I think it is fair to predict that Israel's response, while violent, will not be brutal.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)

8th October 2023, 04:20 AM	#5
Shadowdweller Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,381	Gaza is one of the more densely populated areas on earth. ANY military action taken there is going to result in mass civilian casualties regardless of whether one believes it to be justified or not; or what it's in response to. Nature of the beast. Hundreds are ALREADY reported dead from Israeli retaliatory strikes to the best of my personal knowledge. And I don't think they've even really gotten started. No, this doesn't make Hamas nice people by comparison; nor does it excuse or justify the kidnappings and attacks against Israel. I'm not personally interested in debating or comparing the morality of this, just curious about what people think is going to happen. Feel free to do so, of course, if that's YOUR thing.
	__________________ Might I posit that individuals who regularly endorse murderers or child rapists might not actually be interested in good faith discussions? Far be it for me to judge another's non-harmful past time; but I personally find more enjoyment and productivity in activities that do not involve feeding bridge-dwellers, flogging dead equines, or trying to debate stones. Last edited by Shadowdweller; 8th October 2023 at 04:44 AM.

8th October 2023, 04:35 AM	#6
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	Who is or isn't a "civilian" will be entirely up to Israel's discretion .
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

8th October 2023, 04:44 AM	#7
PitPat Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,531	Originally Posted by Oystein As the Hamas terror attack was, and continues to be, exceedingly brutal (what with the targeted attacks, abuse and killing of civilians), I agree we can expect Israel's response to be very violent, too. But NOT indiscriminate. Rather, it will be very discriminate. Israel will target Hamas militants, Hamas leadership, those who make weapons for Hamas, those who shelter Hamas leadership. Israel will NOT target civilians Israel will NOT kidnap cilvilians Israel will NOT torture or rape civilians Israel will NOT rob civilians Israel will NOT murder captured civilians nor dance on their mutilated bodies. Since that behaviour on Hamas' part is aptly called "brutal", I think it is fair to predict that Israel's response, while violent, will not be brutal. They did request that Gazans who would rather not be a part of this conflict flee their homes and find someplace to hide away for awhile (at their many locations on the strip where Hamas is not around.) Kind of a giveaway about what's going to happen. Just go to your dad's house on the coast, right? Not seeing a good outcome out of this.

8th October 2023, 04:49 AM	#8
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,644	Originally Posted by Shadowdweller Gaza is one of the more densely populated areas on earth. ANY military action taken there is going to result in mass civilian casualties regardless of whether one believes it to be justified or not; or what it's in response to. Nature of the beast. Hundreds are ALREADY reported dead from Israeli retaliatory strikes to the best of my personal knowledge. Last I read was Hamas sources claiming 313. A curiously precise number. Is that the extent of your "personal knowledge"? Do you know who or what those 313 are? Hamas already admitted that one of their military leaders is among them. Several more undreds Palestinians are probably dead by now because they attacked Israel with weapon in and were killed by defense forces. Originally Posted by Shadowdweller And I don't think they've even really gotten started. No, this doesn't make Hamas nice people by comparison; nor does it excuse or justify the kidnappings and attacks against Israel. I'm not personally interested in debating or comparing the morality of this, just curious about what people think is going to happen. As Hamas is an organized armed force that illegally attacked another country, the attacked country is entirely in their right to go after said armed force with a view to beating that armed force (killing its armed fighers and its leadership). If the leaders of the illegal attackers illegally hide their command posts in civilian buildings and among civilian neighborhoods, the fault if civilians get killed by striked against them is entirely on them, those cowardly bastards.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)

8th October 2023, 04:57 AM	#9
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,644	Originally Posted by PitPat They did request that Gazans who would rather not be a part of this conflict flee their homes and find someplace to hide away for awhile (at their many locations on the strip where Hamas is not around.) Kind of a giveaway about what's going to happen. Just go to your dad's house on the coast, right? Israel routinely employs a practice called "knocking on the roof", whereby they warn people inside a target (say, a highrise building) via radio, leaflets, even drone-assisted PA, telling them to flee; then drop a couple of grenades on the roof to signal even to those who didn't get the warning that this is no longer a safe space; and only then, when enough time has passed for evacuation, will they finally deliver the strike that destroys the target. This works for buildings that contain a target that's a thing. A communiations installation; an ammo storage; a weapons factory; a signal intelligence facility. Probably not employed when the target is Hamas officers. Yes, this is all rather cynical in a place as cramped and overpopulated as the Gaza. Where anyone following Israel's advice could become a target of Hamas wrath. Originally Posted by PitPat Not seeing a good outcome out of this. Neither do I.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)

8th October 2023, 05:09 AM	#10
PitPat Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,531	Originally Posted by Oystein Israel routinely employs a practice called "knocking on the roof", whereby they warn people inside a target (say, a highrise building) via radio, leaflets, even drone-assisted PA, telling them to flee; then drop a couple of grenades on the roof to signal even to those who didn't get the warning that this is no longer a safe space; and only then, when enough time has passed for evacuation, will they finally deliver the strike that destroys the target. This works for buildings that contain a target that's a thing. A communiations installation; an ammo storage; a weapons factory; a signal intelligence facility. Probably not employed when the target is Hamas officers. Yes, this is all rather cynical in a place as cramped and overpopulated as the Gaza. Where anyone following Israel's advice could become a target of Hamas wrath. Neither do I. Don't disagree, I don't think Israel is targeting innocent Palestinians. So far they're resisting the call to arms, and are probably pissed off about it (which Fox news seems to be conflating with Hamas). There was the IDF spokesperson who said something like "There may be some difficult things to see in the coming days, but just remember how this started." Pretty sure it wasn't about 1948.

8th October 2023, 05:19 AM	#11
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	Well, the IDF has killed a journalist with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever.
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

8th October 2023, 05:52 AM	#12
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,644	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Well, the IDF has killed a journalist with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever. Claimed with no supporting context or sources whatsoever.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)

8th October 2023, 06:20 AM	#13
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	Originally Posted by Oystein Claimed with no supporting context or sources whatsoever. https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/11754...led-a-year-ago I thought this was common knowledge
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

8th October 2023, 06:32 AM	#14
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 6,101	Originally Posted by Shadowdweller Just curious what you all think? Beyond the air/rocket strikes, unless you think that's all? I suspect it's going to be brutal. And indiscriminate. Given the hostage situation they are going to send in ground troops, which unfortunately is probably exactly what Hamas is expecting. Remember Hamas doesn't give a damn about how many Palestinian civilians die and when this does end, they will simply retreat into the shadows and plan for the next round.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

8th October 2023, 07:04 AM	#15
Shadowdweller Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,381	Originally Posted by Garrison Given the hostage situation they are going to send in ground troops, which unfortunately is probably exactly what Hamas is expecting. Remember Hamas doesn't give a damn about how many Palestinian civilians die and when this does end, they will simply retreat into the shadows and plan for the next round. So do you think the IDF sends ground forces in, tries to free hostages, kills or captures a bunch of Hamas militants and/or destroys affiliated infrastructure and then... pulls out of Gaza again? Or...?
	__________________ Might I posit that individuals who regularly endorse murderers or child rapists might not actually be interested in good faith discussions? Far be it for me to judge another's non-harmful past time; but I personally find more enjoyment and productivity in activities that do not involve feeding bridge-dwellers, flogging dead equines, or trying to debate stones. Last edited by Shadowdweller; 8th October 2023 at 07:07 AM.

8th October 2023, 07:09 AM	#16
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,696	As for Mr. I Be Not A Yahoo, he's just demonstrating what happens when a right wing jerk stays in power too long. A very short time is too damn long.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

8th October 2023, 07:46 AM	#17
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,299	Originally Posted by Shadowdweller Just curious what you all think? Beyond the air/rocket strikes, unless you think that's all? I suspect it's going to be brutal. And indiscriminate. I expect an Israeli response as brutal and indiscriminate as the Hamas provocation. The difference being the IDF will be wearing uniforms to differentiate them from unarmed civilians, and it won't be a sneak attack.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

8th October 2023, 08:21 AM	#18
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,569	You can't avoid civilian victims in Gaza. They will be warned, and they won't be the primary target. But this time, that's it.

8th October 2023, 09:10 AM	#19
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7,535	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid You can't avoid civilian victims in Gaza. They will be warned, and they won't be the primary target. But this time, that's it. Hamas wants civilian casualties, on their side. They think it makes good pro-Pal optics. They hope it will lead to a general massive Palestinian uprising, which will cause Israel to use a heavy hand, and the Arab nations will invade and destroy Israel aka "Liberate Palestine". It won't happen. Hamas is driven by irrational and illogical reasoning, with an insane religious basis.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7,535	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

8th October 2023, 09:30 AM	#20
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,591	The hostages are such a complicating factor. Last report I saw on CNN's webpage suggested that Hamas has at least 166 hostages. Some are military service members (both men and women), but they also have kids, old people, even some entire families. And some are foreign citizens, although I don't know if that means they are exclusively foreign or dual citizen. At least one German national, for example. And they'll distribute them all around Gaza in singles and pairs. Not keep them all lumped together where Israel can rescue them all in a single raid. And move them around often such that by the time Israel learns of some of the locations, the hostages will already have been moved to new locations. Israel is very, very angry. This is being compared to a 9-11 level event for them. And Israel has a very effective military. Israel doesn't target Palestinian civilians and goes to some lengths to prevent that, but does accept that a fair bit of collateral damage among Palestinian civilians happens anyway due to dense living conditions and a wide grey line between combatant and non-combatant Palestinian people. But Israel also has a history of going to great lengths to prevent harm to its own people. In 2006 Hamas captured one single Israeli soldier (Gilad Shalit). Israel raided Hamas to get him back but didn't succeed. They then spend five years negotiating with Hamas and eventually exchanged Shalit for 1000 Palestinians in Israeli custody. So Israel is not going to go in so kinetic that they start accidentally killing hostages. And with those hostages distributed throughout the strip and being moved around, that will be a pretty severe limitation on the use of Israeli military force. ETA To add to this: Israeli settlers in the West Bank are probably just itching to use this as an excuse to start something there. Not that the settlers ever need much motivation to be ******** in every way possible to the Palestinians around them. That could be enough motivation to draw in Hezbollah, a much more dangerous enemy than Hamas could ever be.
	Last edited by crescent; 8th October 2023 at 09:54 AM.

8th October 2023, 09:56 AM	#22
PitPat Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,531	Only if they want recruit 5x more of their enemies they already have. Not a friendly neighborhood.

8th October 2023, 10:40 AM	#23
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 13,458	Originally Posted by Gaetan I also want to point out the cowardice of comments of political leaders about this conflict, these unrightous are of no interest for the future of your country. You say "political" and then try to hang religious attributes on them. Perhaps you are confusing them with Hamas leaders?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

8th October 2023, 10:46 AM	#24
carlosy Muse Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 607	Quote: Muhammad Al-Deif, the Hamas military commander, called for a general uprising against Israel in a recorded message on Saturday. “If you have a gun, get it out. This is the time to use it – get out with trucks, cars, axes. Today the best and most honorable history starts.” Would'nt it be the time now for the regular Gaza residents to take matters in their own hands, get guns and axes and chase those Hamas ******* into the see, once and for all?! They all know pretty well, that this barbaric attack in Israel will only lead to massive pain for everyone in Gaza.
carlosy Muse Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 607	Last edited by carlosy; 8th October 2023 at 10:49 AM.

8th October 2023, 10:54 AM	#25
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,833	Originally Posted by Oystein As the Hamas terror attack was, and continues to be, exceedingly brutal (what with the targeted attacks, abuse and killing of civilians), I agree we can expect Israel's response to be very violent, too. But NOT indiscriminate. Rather, it will be very discriminate. Israel will target Hamas militants, Hamas leadership, those who make weapons for Hamas, those who shelter Hamas leadership. Israel will NOT target civilians Israel will NOT kidnap cilvilians Israel will NOT torture or rape civilians Israel will NOT rob civilians Israel will NOT murder captured civilians nor dance on their mutilated bodies. Since that behaviour on Hamas' part is aptly called "brutal", I think it is fair to predict that Israel's response, while violent, will not be brutal. Given that this is contrary to Israeli tactics since 1948, I very much doubt we're going to see them be discriminate at any point in the future.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

8th October 2023, 11:02 AM	#26
Gaetan Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,186	Originally Posted by Steve You say "political" and then try to hang religious attributes on them. Perhaps you are confusing them with Hamas leaders? I support the Palestinians because they are treated unfairly, if the Israelis were in the same situation as the Palestinians I would support the Israelis
Gaetan Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,186

8th October 2023, 11:27 AM	#27
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by Steve You say "political" and then try to hang religious attributes on them. Perhaps you are confusing them with Hamas leaders? Are you unfamiliar with the role of religious parties in Israeli government?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

8th October 2023, 12:03 PM	#28
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 13,458	Originally Posted by catsmate Are you unfamiliar with the role of religious parties in Israeli government? I commented on Gaetan's post which made no mention of the government of Israel. If Gaetan wishes to clarify which political leaders he was referring to I may modify my comments. Until such time it is my understanding that he is referring to political leaders he has previously named - Netanyahu, Biden, Macron and Trudeau - as collectively being "unrighteous".
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

8th October 2023, 12:12 PM	#29
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 54,312	Sorry to get all biblical, but: For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.. Gaza will be largely destroyed.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

8th October 2023, 12:13 PM	#30
Gaetan Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,186	Originally Posted by Steve I commented on Gaetan's post which made no mention of the government of Israel. If Gaetan wishes to clarify which political leaders he was referring to I may modify my comments. Until such time it is my understanding that he is referring to political leaders he has previously named - Netanyahu, Biden, Macron and Trudeau - as collectively being "unrighteous". Like and many others
Gaetan Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,186

8th October 2023, 12:32 PM	#31
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere Else Posts: 5,785	Originally Posted by Gaetan Like and many others No
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

8th October 2023, 12:40 PM	#32
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,299	Originally Posted by Gaetan We know that you are a lier working for Joe Biden and making comments on any posts. Who's "we"?
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

8th October 2023, 01:22 PM	#33
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by trustbutverify Who's "we"? Him, and his 72 poop fairies
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

8th October 2023, 03:02 PM	#34
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,644	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/11754...led-a-year-ago I thought this was common knowledge The article does not support your claim of "no mitigating circumstances whatsoever". I thought you were talking about a current event.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)

8th October 2023, 03:15 PM	#35
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 35,278	Presumably Israel will seek revenge, deterrence and a return of their citizens taken hostage. So, I imagine they will invade Gaza.
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8th October 2023, 03:43 PM	#36
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,569	Originally Posted by angrysoba Presumably Israel will seek revenge, deterrence and a return of their citizens taken hostage. So, I imagine they will invade Gaza. I also expect some moves against Iran and Lebanon. With US support, even participation. With Russia supporting Iran it already has ties to Ukraine war. It has a potential to be big.