How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas? - Page 4

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

Israel will NOT target civilians
Israel will NOT kidnap cilvilians
Israel will NOT torture or rape civilians
Israel will NOT rob civilians
Israel will NOT murder captured civilians nor dance on their mutilated bodies.

What alternate universe do you live in?

Israel will absolutely indiscriminately target Gaza for airstrikes, killing many civilians, as they have done many times before. If they conduct a ground invasion, they will shoot and kill many noncombatants, including journalists, medics, and children, as they have done many times before.

The Israeli state systematically robs Arab citizens within their territory all the time. All these "settlements" are state backed armed robberies of ancestral homes. Settlers conduct pogroms of the few remaining Palestinian areas within Israel proper and the state stands by with lethal violence should any of them resist.

It's not like Palestinians haven't tried non-violent approaches before. The problem with nonviolence is that it depends on the rest of the world being outraged by the oppression. Israel guns down children and journalists and indiscriminately bombs apartment towers and the world doesn't even blink. The UN will never act because the US has a final veto.

Nonviolence relies on shame, and Israel has no shame and the world has no interest in punishing them for that. Nonviolence has not worked.

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Israel could win big points on the international stage, probably even salvage the Saudi Deal, if they proceed with utmost caution and with as much buy-in of Palestinians as possible - this could be the watershed moment to once and for all highlight the difference in respect for Life and Rule of Law of Israel vs. Hamas.

But that would be antithetical to the militant right-wingers in government.

Any Israeli leader who tried this would be at high risk of being assassinated by a Zionist hard liner, which is exactly what happened to the last PM who made meaningful strides towards a lasting peace.

The Great Zaganza · 9th October 2023, 05:28 AM

from the perspective of affected Palestinians, it might be hard to tell the difference between an arrest with ages of pre-trial detention and a kidnapping.

lionking · 9th October 2023, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

What alternate universe do you live in?

Israel will absolutely indiscriminately target Gaza for airstrikes, killing many civilians, as they have done many times before. If they conduct a ground invasion, they will shoot and kill many noncombatants, including journalists, medics, and children, as they have done many times before.

The Israeli state systematically robs Arab citizens within their territory all the time. All these "settlements" are state backed armed robberies of ancestral homes. Settlers conduct pogroms of the few remaining Palestinian areas within Israel proper and the state stands by with lethal violence should any of them resist.

It's not like Palestinians haven't tried non-violent approaches before. The problem with nonviolence is that it depends on the rest of the world being outraged by the oppression. Israel guns down children and journalists and indiscriminately bombs apartment towers and the world doesn't even blink. The UN will never act because the US has a final veto.

Nonviolence relies on shame, and Israel has no shame and the world has no interest in punishing them for that. Nonviolence has not worked.

Wow. You are not simply excusing Hamas, your cheering them on. Amazing.

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Wow. You are not simply excusing Hamas, your cheering them on. Amazing.

I would guess Israel would be better off dealing with a secular organization like the PLO, but they made their decision to back the Islamists.

Blowback is a bitch sometimes.

Quote:

But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback?

This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/...tine-conflict/

The Great Zaganza · 9th October 2023, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Wow. You are not simply excusing Hamas, your cheering them on. Amazing.

I don't get that from the post :
it must be possible to condemn Hamas without having to uncritically accept anything Israel does.
The fact is that Israel could easily do better, and they don't.
And that includes killing journalists for no better reason than "they are armed with cameras" (real quote from IDF spokesman) .

trustbutverify · 9th October 2023, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Why is it fine to be racist about who should help refugees?

Which countries do you think should take in millions of additional refugees?

Those currently celebrating the glorious Hamas victory?

webfusion · 9th October 2023, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

And would also need Israel to commit to a peace plan based on an independent Palestine on the 1968 borders (the legitimate borders under international law). But that would be antithetical to any Israeli governmnet.

Since you are going to offer your opinions here, at least base them on actual historical facts.

Fact one, the Israeli attack against Syria, Egypt and Jordan in June1967 (not 68) was made across the military cease-fire lines that had been established in 1949 at Rhodes. At no point have there been established "legitimate borders under international law" regarding Palestinian claims to lands.

Secondly, Israeli governments, one after the other since the conclusion of the Six Day War, have tried to devise some mechanism for Palestinians to work towards statehood, providing them with a high degree of political and social autonomy, and committing to live in peace with the Palestinians.

Thirdly, the idea of an "independent" Palestine is not practical, based on a number of considerations.
At a minimum, the non-contiguous nature of the land areas they are claiming as theirs.
Also, the lack of a cohesive central authority (Palestinian society is dominated by tribal loyalties, and various jihadist groups with guns).
Not to mention, the lack of natural resources that both Gaza and WestBank suffers from, requires a cooperative and coordinated confederation with Israel, Jordan, Egypt and even Saudi Arabia (70 miles down the coast of the Red Sea).
Any future Palestine State cannot exist within an "independent" bubble that somehow excludes Israeli involvement and connection.

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Since you are going to offer your opinions here, at least base them on actual historical facts.

Fact one, the Israeli attack against Syria, Egypt and Jordan in June1967 (not 68) was made across the military cease-fire lines that had been established in 1949 at Rhodes. At no point have there been established "legitimate borders under international law" regarding Palestinian claims to lands.

Secondly, Israeli governments, one after the other since the conclusion of the Six Day War, have tried to devise some mechanism for Palestinians to work towards statehood, providing them with a high degree of political and social autonomy, and committing to live in peace with the Palestinians.

Thirdly, the idea of an "independent" Palestine is not practical, based on a number of considerations.
At a minimum, the non-contiguous nature of the land areas they are claiming as theirs.
Also, the lack of a cohesive central authority (Palestinian society is dominated by tribal loyalties, and various jihadist groups with guns).
Not to mention, the lack of natural resources that both Gaza and WestBank suffers from, requires a cooperative and coordinated confederation with Israel, Jordan, Egypt and even Saudi Arabia (70 miles down the coast of the Red Sea).
Any future Palestine State cannot exist within an "independent" bubble that somehow excludes Israeli involvement and connection.

Sounds like a lot of reasons why running an Apartheid state is wildly impractical.

Darat · 9th October 2023, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Those currently celebrating the glorious Hamas victory?

Which countries?

Dr.Sid · 9th October 2023, 05:49 AM

Even if Palestine was a country, it be in war with Israel, and subject to invasion. What's the point ?

webfusion · 9th October 2023, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Sounds like a lot of reasons why running an Apartheid state is wildly impractical.

The Palestinians want a State that is judenrein/judenfrei.
In my view, THAT would be impractical and counterproductive.

Let's keep in mind that 'Palestine' and Israel are joined at the hip, and they will not be separated.
The use of the words Apartheid or Genocide, to describe the Israeli treatment of Palestinian Arabs, simply dilutes those words to gibberish.

Gaza is presently closed to the outside world, as there's no electricity, no incoming or outgoing cargo transfers, no fuel supplies, no local fishing, and no workers permitted to go to their employment in Israel.

And amid all this, Mohammed Deif is a walking dead man. (to regain focus on the thread topic question and my specific answer)

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 06:58 AM

I'm sure the Western press is going to report that what Israel is proposing is a war crime that completely dwarfs anything Hamas has ever done, or, in their present capacity, could ever do.

It's not like human rights or rules of war are something cynically deployed against only one side of this conflict, right?

Quote:

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group.

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.

“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-food-or-fuel/

The population of the Gaza strip is 2 million people. Israel is openly telegraphing their intentions to commit genocide and the Western world is silent.

Gaetan · 9th October 2023, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I'm sure the Western press is going to report that what Israel is proposing is a war crime that completely dwarfs anything Hamas has ever done, or, in their present capacity, could ever do.

It's not like human rights or rules of war are something cynically deployed against only one side of this conflict, right?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-food-or-fuel/

The population of the Gaza strip is 2 million people. Israel is openly telegraphing their intentions to commit genocide and the Western world is silent.

The support of Joe Biden, other criminal corrupted pilitical leaders and some forumers toward Israel on this site are their contribution to the genocide planned by Netanyahu in Gaza. We live in a world more corrupted than ever.

Ziggurat · 9th October 2023, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Israel could win big points on the international stage, probably even salvage the Saudi Deal, if they proceed with utmost caution and with as much buy-in of Palestinians as possible - this could be the watershed moment to once and for all highlight the difference in respect for Life and Rule of Law of Israel vs. Hamas.

But that would be antithetical to the militant right-wingers in government.

Of course. The burden to act civilized is always on Israel, never on Hamas. And Hamas need never suffer the consequences of its brutality.

You are suffering under a common but still extreme delusion, that the difference in respect for life and law isn't already as plain as day. It is and always has been. If you think that Israel playing nice now will somehow change anyone's mind, you've completely lost it. Those who somehow thought that there was any sort of moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas don't have a functioning moral compass, and nothing Israel does can ever fix anyone else's inability to recognize evil.

As for the Saudis, I do not know how they respond. There is an internal power struggle within the nation between factions that support the Palestinians and those who do not, and from the outside I've got no idea what the balance of power is. But how Israel responds probably has little to do with who wins that power struggle, so it should not be at the top of the list of concerns for Israel.

Ziggurat · 9th October 2023, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

The population of the Gaza strip is 2 million people. Israel is openly telegraphing their intentions to commit genocide and the Western world is silent.

What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them?

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them?

Israel has been engaged in a decades long project of ethnic cleansing. It's already been demonstrated, this is only an intensification of that process.

The Great Zaganza · 9th October 2023, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them?

Do you assume that no innocent person will die as a result of a complete blockade?

ThatGuy11200 · 9th October 2023, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them?

"If"? Are you not sure whether or not this is a call for genocide?

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Do you assume that no innocent person will die as a result of a complete blockade?

Israel cannot blockade Gaza. Theres a border with Egypt that Egypt could open if they really decide they care about Palestinians and aide can flow that way.

Unless you are suggesting Israel is going to go to war with Egypt??

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Israel cannot blockade Gaza. Theres a border with Egypt that Egypt could open if they really decide they care about Palestinians and aide can flow that way.

Ok.

And if Egypt doesn't open their borders, what % responsibility will Israel have in starving out 2 million people? How much direct responsibility for mass murder is acceptable?

steenkh · 9th October 2023, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Israel cannot blockade Gaza. Theres a border with Egypt that Egypt could open if they really decide they care about Palestinians and aide can flow that way.

Israel is not controlling the border to Egypt?

The Great Zaganza · 9th October 2023, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Israel cannot blockade Gaza. Theres a border with Egypt that Egypt could open if they really decide they care about Palestinians and aide can flow that way.

Unless you are suggesting Israel is going to go to war with Egypt??

Blockade doesn't have to be 100% to hurt a lot of people

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by steenkh

Israel is not controlling the border to Egypt?

Between Gaza and Egypt?? Not that I'm aware of... the occupation of Sinai ended 41 years ago.

Ziggurat · 9th October 2023, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Israel has been engaged in a decades long project of ethnic cleansing. It's already been demonstrated, this is only an intensification of that process.

Ethnic cleansing of Gaza? How's that supposed to work, when the Palestinian population has been consistently increasing? The only ethnic cleansing of Gaza that Israel ever did was of Jews. Israel ethnically cleansed the area of Jews, not Palestinians. Was that genocide? Did you complain?

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Do you assume that no innocent person will die as a result of a complete blockade?

I didn't say that. There may well be. There will almost certainly be innocent civilian deaths from military operations against Hamas, because Hamas acts to ensure that. But the claim was genocide. Do you think Israel is planning genocide?

Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200

"If"? Are you not sure whether or not this is a call for genocide?

I'm conceding the possibility for the sake of argument, not because of what I believe. Are you unfamiliar with such rhetorical methods?

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Ok.

And if Egypt doesn't open their borders, what % responsibility will Israel have in starving out 2 million people? How much direct responsibility for mass murder is acceptable?

They're not going to starve 2 million people. Red Cross food aid will likely be allowed in, in a day or two. If they don't, Joe Biden will put pressure on them to do so.

Gaetan · 9th October 2023, 08:11 AM

Who is responsible for Hamas' barbaric acts? My opinion is that these acts are the response to the injustice to the Palestinian people and to the inaction and cowardice of the international community, so the real culprits are those who provoked them like the support to injustice by the US government and the Israel government itself.

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

They're not going to starve 2 million people. Red Cross food aid will likely be allowed in, in a day or two. If they don't, Joe Biden will put pressure on them to do so.

So you would agree that, hypothetically speaking, Israel interfering with the distribution of humanitarian aid would be a war crime, yes?

I wish I shared your optimism.

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

So you would agree that, hypothetically speaking, Israel interfering with the distribution of humanitarian aid would be a war crime, yes?

I wish I shared your optimism.

Yeah if they don't let legit NGO aid organizations in... it might get to that level. I believe Gaza has a port as well... is the Israeli Navy blockading it?

They are not going to starve out 2 million people TG. The pressure put on them by the USA and EU after video of starving kids become available would be immense.

Ziggurat · 9th October 2023, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

They're not going to starve 2 million people.

It almost feels like TG wants them to, in order to prove him right about how horrible Israel is. C.S. Lewis described the type:

Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling, “Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,” or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible?

Shalamar · 9th October 2023, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The support of Joe Biden, other criminal corrupted pilitical leaders and some forumers toward Israel on this site are their contribution to the genocide planned by Netanyahu in Gaza. We live in a world more corrupted than ever.

No

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Yeah if they don't let legit NGO aid organizations in... it might get to that level. I believe Gaza has a port as well... is the Israeli Navy blockading it?

They are not going to starve out 2 million people TG. The pressure put on them by the USA and EU after video of starving kids become available would be immense.

Yes, the Israeli Navy controls access to the Gaza ports. They allow fishing out for a few nautical miles and regularly intercept and inspect any shipments arriving that way. Presumably it would quite easy for them to enforce a total naval blockade if they follow through on their threat to isolate Gaza.

Ziggurat · 9th October 2023, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

So you would agree that, hypothetically speaking, Israel interfering with the distribution of humanitarian aid would be a war crime, yes?

I wish I shared your optimism.

What do you consider "interfering"? Delaying for a few days? Making aid go through a screening process to ensure no arms are being smuggled in? "Interfering" is quite the broad category.

And again, Egypt can let as much aid into Gaza as it wants. It doesn't have to go through Israel. Do you really think Egypt is going to block food aid? If people end up starving in Gaza, it will be because Hamas wants them to starve. And you're the reason why they might find it useful to do so.

The Great Zaganza · 9th October 2023, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It almost feels like TG wants them to, in order to prove him right about how horrible Israel is. C.S. Lewis described the type:

Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling, “Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,” or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible?

why make an actual argument when using a strawman is so much easier and quicker?

Ziggurat · 9th October 2023, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

why make an actual argument when using a strawman is so much easier and quicker?

That's ironic, coming from you. And I made my arguments against TG's position quite clear, they haven't exactly been refuted by you or him. If I'm wrong about TG's attitude, he's free to explain how.

Gulliver Foyle · 9th October 2023, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Since you are going to offer your opinions here, at least base them on actual historical facts.

Fact one, the Israeli attack against Syria, Egypt and Jordan in June1967 (not 68) was made across the military cease-fire lines that had been established in 1949 at Rhodes. At no point have there been established "legitimate borders under international law" regarding Palestinian claims to lands.

Secondly, Israeli governments, one after the other since the conclusion of the Six Day War, have tried to devise some mechanism for Palestinians to work towards statehood, providing them with a high degree of political and social autonomy, and committing to live in peace with the Palestinians.

Thirdly, the idea of an "independent" Palestine is not practical, based on a number of considerations.
At a minimum, the non-contiguous nature of the land areas they are claiming as theirs.
Also, the lack of a cohesive central authority (Palestinian society is dominated by tribal loyalties, and various jihadist groups with guns).
Not to mention, the lack of natural resources that both Gaza and WestBank suffers from, requires a cooperative and coordinated confederation with Israel, Jordan, Egypt and even Saudi Arabia (70 miles down the coast of the Red Sea).
Any future Palestine State cannot exist within an "independent" bubble that somehow excludes Israeli involvement and connection.

The goal of every Israeli government has been Eretz Ysrael, something that should e noted has no historical nor pseudo-historical basis. Eretz Ysrael includes all of what was Ottoman Palestine plus quite a lot of land owned by countries neigbouring it. Hence why the state is waging a campaign of ethnic cleansing and slow genocide in both the West Bank and Gaza.

Frankly anybody who can say with a straight face that Israel is a good actor in this conflict knows sweet fanny adams about the hustory of the country.

The Great Zaganza · 9th October 2023, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That's ironic, coming from you. And I made my arguments against TG's position quite clear, they haven't exactly been refuted by you or him. If I'm wrong about TG's attitude, he's free to explain how.

that was a QUESTION, but it seems that you are projecting so much that you can't tell.

It is strange how hard it is for you to see this from anyone's but Israel's point of view.

But simply according to international law, cutting a population off from the essentials for survival, or event the attempt to do so, is illegal and a violation of Human Rights.
Objectively, Israel is doing something horrible by trying to blockade Gaza, and that is true regardless of what HAMAS has done or will do.

sackett · 9th October 2023, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Shalamar

No

Even that is a waste of words.

GlennB · 9th October 2023, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them?

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Do you assume that no innocent person will die as a result of a complete blockade?

Gotta say this is one of the wildest leaps I've seen on ISF for a while, and I've seen plenty of wild ones.

The Great Zaganza · 9th October 2023, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Gotta say this is one of the wildest leaps I've seen on ISF for a while, and I've seen plenty of wild ones.

only if you think of it in a very specific way.

Note that I never called the blockade a genocide, attempted or not; a detail both you and Zig have missed.

I wanted Zig to clarify how many lives the blockade must cost before one could call it an attempted genocide, since the target is very much a specific population and not targeted at enemy combatants.
I hope no one here thinks that it can only be genocide if you actually manage to kill most of an ethnic group.

And no, I don't think that is Israel's aim here - it depends too much on cheap labor for that.

9th October 2023, 05:21 AM	#121
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by Oystein Israel will NOT target civilians Israel will NOT kidnap cilvilians Israel will NOT torture or rape civilians Israel will NOT rob civilians Israel will NOT murder captured civilians nor dance on their mutilated bodies. What alternate universe do you live in? Israel will absolutely indiscriminately target Gaza for airstrikes, killing many civilians, as they have done many times before. If they conduct a ground invasion, they will shoot and kill many noncombatants, including journalists, medics, and children, as they have done many times before. The Israeli state systematically robs Arab citizens within their territory all the time. All these "settlements" are state backed armed robberies of ancestral homes. Settlers conduct pogroms of the few remaining Palestinian areas within Israel proper and the state stands by with lethal violence should any of them resist. It's not like Palestinians haven't tried non-violent approaches before. The problem with nonviolence is that it depends on the rest of the world being outraged by the oppression. Israel guns down children and journalists and indiscriminately bombs apartment towers and the world doesn't even blink. The UN will never act because the US has a final veto. Nonviolence relies on shame, and Israel has no shame and the world has no interest in punishing them for that. Nonviolence has not worked.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 9th October 2023 at 05:26 AM.

9th October 2023, 05:24 AM	#122
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Israel could win big points on the international stage, probably even salvage the Saudi Deal, if they proceed with utmost caution and with as much buy-in of Palestinians as possible - this could be the watershed moment to once and for all highlight the difference in respect for Life and Rule of Law of Israel vs. Hamas. But that would be antithetical to the militant right-wingers in government. Any Israeli leader who tried this would be at high risk of being assassinated by a Zionist hard liner, which is exactly what happened to the last PM who made meaningful strides towards a lasting peace.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

9th October 2023, 05:28 AM	#123
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	from the perspective of affected Palestinians, it might be hard to tell the difference between an arrest with ages of pre-trial detention and a kidnapping.
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

9th October 2023, 05:34 AM	#124
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 54,312	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost What alternate universe do you live in? Israel will absolutely indiscriminately target Gaza for airstrikes, killing many civilians, as they have done many times before. If they conduct a ground invasion, they will shoot and kill many noncombatants, including journalists, medics, and children, as they have done many times before. The Israeli state systematically robs Arab citizens within their territory all the time. All these "settlements" are state backed armed robberies of ancestral homes. Settlers conduct pogroms of the few remaining Palestinian areas within Israel proper and the state stands by with lethal violence should any of them resist. It's not like Palestinians haven't tried non-violent approaches before. The problem with nonviolence is that it depends on the rest of the world being outraged by the oppression. Israel guns down children and journalists and indiscriminately bombs apartment towers and the world doesn't even blink. The UN will never act because the US has a final veto. Nonviolence relies on shame, and Israel has no shame and the world has no interest in punishing them for that. Nonviolence has not worked. Wow. You are not simply excusing Hamas, your cheering them on. Amazing.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

9th October 2023, 05:37 AM	#125
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by lionking Wow. You are not simply excusing Hamas, your cheering them on. Amazing. I would guess Israel would be better off dealing with a secular organization like the PLO, but they made their decision to back the Islamists. Blowback is a bitch sometimes. Quote: But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback? This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”) “The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.” “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/...tine-conflict/
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

9th October 2023, 05:38 AM	#126
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	Originally Posted by lionking Wow. You are not simply excusing Hamas, your cheering them on. Amazing. I don't get that from the post : it must be possible to condemn Hamas without having to uncritically accept anything Israel does. The fact is that Israel could easily do better, and they don't. And that includes killing journalists for no better reason than "they are armed with cameras" (real quote from IDF spokesman) .
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

9th October 2023, 05:45 AM	#127
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,299	Originally Posted by Darat Why is it fine to be racist about who should help refugees? Which countries do you think should take in millions of additional refugees? Those currently celebrating the glorious Hamas victory?
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

9th October 2023, 05:46 AM	#128
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,487	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle And would also need Israel to commit to a peace plan based on an independent Palestine on the 1968 borders (the legitimate borders under international law). But that would be antithetical to any Israeli governmnet. Since you are going to offer your opinions here, at least base them on actual historical facts. Fact one, the Israeli attack against Syria, Egypt and Jordan in June1967 (not 68) was made across the military cease-fire lines that had been established in 1949 at Rhodes. At no point have there been established "legitimate borders under international law" regarding Palestinian claims to lands. Secondly, Israeli governments, one after the other since the conclusion of the Six Day War, have tried to devise some mechanism for Palestinians to work towards statehood, providing them with a high degree of political and social autonomy, and committing to live in peace with the Palestinians. Thirdly, the idea of an "independent" Palestine is not practical, based on a number of considerations. At a minimum, the non-contiguous nature of the land areas they are claiming as theirs. Also, the lack of a cohesive central authority (Palestinian society is dominated by tribal loyalties, and various jihadist groups with guns). Not to mention, the lack of natural resources that both Gaza and WestBank suffers from, requires a cooperative and coordinated confederation with Israel, Jordan, Egypt and even Saudi Arabia (70 miles down the coast of the Red Sea). Any future Palestine State cannot exist within an "independent" bubble that somehow excludes Israeli involvement and connection.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,487

9th October 2023, 05:48 AM	#129
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by webfusion Since you are going to offer your opinions here, at least base them on actual historical facts. Fact one, the Israeli attack against Syria, Egypt and Jordan in June1967 (not 68) was made across the military cease-fire lines that had been established in 1949 at Rhodes. At no point have there been established "legitimate borders under international law" regarding Palestinian claims to lands. Secondly, Israeli governments, one after the other since the conclusion of the Six Day War, have tried to devise some mechanism for Palestinians to work towards statehood, providing them with a high degree of political and social autonomy, and committing to live in peace with the Palestinians. Thirdly, the idea of an "independent" Palestine is not practical, based on a number of considerations. At a minimum, the non-contiguous nature of the land areas they are claiming as theirs. Also, the lack of a cohesive central authority (Palestinian society is dominated by tribal loyalties, and various jihadist groups with guns). Not to mention, the lack of natural resources that both Gaza and WestBank suffers from, requires a cooperative and coordinated confederation with Israel, Jordan, Egypt and even Saudi Arabia (70 miles down the coast of the Red Sea). Any future Palestine State cannot exist within an "independent" bubble that somehow excludes Israeli involvement and connection. Sounds like a lot of reasons why running an Apartheid state is wildly impractical.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

9th October 2023, 05:48 AM	#130
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 112,595	Originally Posted by trustbutverify Those currently celebrating the glorious Hamas victory? Which countries?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

9th October 2023, 05:49 AM	#131
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,569	Even if Palestine was a country, it be in war with Israel, and subject to invasion. What's the point ?

9th October 2023, 06:44 AM	#132
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,487	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Sounds like a lot of reasons why running an Apartheid state is wildly impractical. The Palestinians want a State that is judenrein/judenfrei. In my view, THAT would be impractical and counterproductive. Let's keep in mind that 'Palestine' and Israel are joined at the hip, and they will not be separated. The use of the words Apartheid or Genocide, to describe the Israeli treatment of Palestinian Arabs, simply dilutes those words to gibberish. Gaza is presently closed to the outside world, as there's no electricity, no incoming or outgoing cargo transfers, no fuel supplies, no local fishing, and no workers permitted to go to their employment in Israel. And amid all this, Mohammed Deif is a walking dead man. (to regain focus on the thread topic question and my specific answer)
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,487

9th October 2023, 06:58 AM	#133
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	I'm sure the Western press is going to report that what Israel is proposing is a war crime that completely dwarfs anything Hamas has ever done, or, in their present capacity, could ever do. It's not like human rights or rules of war are something cynically deployed against only one side of this conflict, right? Quote: Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group. “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba. “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds. https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-food-or-fuel/ The population of the Gaza strip is 2 million people. Israel is openly telegraphing their intentions to commit genocide and the Western world is silent.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 9th October 2023 at 07:01 AM.

9th October 2023, 07:22 AM	#134
Gaetan Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,186	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost I'm sure the Western press is going to report that what Israel is proposing is a war crime that completely dwarfs anything Hamas has ever done, or, in their present capacity, could ever do. It's not like human rights or rules of war are something cynically deployed against only one side of this conflict, right? https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-food-or-fuel/ The population of the Gaza strip is 2 million people. Israel is openly telegraphing their intentions to commit genocide and the Western world is silent. The support of Joe Biden, other criminal corrupted pilitical leaders and some forumers toward Israel on this site are their contribution to the genocide planned by Netanyahu in Gaza. We live in a world more corrupted than ever.
Gaetan Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,186

9th October 2023, 07:32 AM	#135
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Israel could win big points on the international stage, probably even salvage the Saudi Deal, if they proceed with utmost caution and with as much buy-in of Palestinians as possible - this could be the watershed moment to once and for all highlight the difference in respect for Life and Rule of Law of Israel vs. Hamas. But that would be antithetical to the militant right-wingers in government. Of course. The burden to act civilized is always on Israel, never on Hamas. And Hamas need never suffer the consequences of its brutality. You are suffering under a common but still extreme delusion, that the difference in respect for life and law isn't already as plain as day. It is and always has been. If you think that Israel playing nice now will somehow change anyone's mind, you've completely lost it. Those who somehow thought that there was any sort of moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas don't have a functioning moral compass, and nothing Israel does can ever fix anyone else's inability to recognize evil. As for the Saudis, I do not know how they respond. There is an internal power struggle within the nation between factions that support the Palestinians and those who do not, and from the outside I've got no idea what the balance of power is. But how Israel responds probably has little to do with who wins that power struggle, so it should not be at the top of the list of concerns for Israel.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

9th October 2023, 07:35 AM	#136
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost The population of the Gaza strip is 2 million people. Israel is openly telegraphing their intentions to commit genocide and the Western world is silent. What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

9th October 2023, 07:38 AM	#137
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by Ziggurat What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them? Israel has been engaged in a decades long project of ethnic cleansing. It's already been demonstrated, this is only an intensification of that process.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 9th October 2023 at 07:40 AM.

9th October 2023, 07:39 AM	#138
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	Originally Posted by Ziggurat What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them? Do you assume that no innocent person will die as a result of a complete blockade?
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

9th October 2023, 07:44 AM	#139
ThatGuy11200 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: London Posts: 489	Originally Posted by Ziggurat What will you say when this is over if no genocide occurred? Will you admit you were wrong? Or will you claim that they intended genocide, but something stopped them? "If"? Are you not sure whether or not this is a call for genocide?

9th October 2023, 07:46 AM	#140
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Do you assume that no innocent person will die as a result of a complete blockade? Israel cannot blockade Gaza. Theres a border with Egypt that Egypt could open if they really decide they care about Palestinians and aide can flow that way. Unless you are suggesting Israel is going to go to war with Egypt??
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

9th October 2023, 08:02 AM	#141
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Israel cannot blockade Gaza. Theres a border with Egypt that Egypt could open if they really decide they care about Palestinians and aide can flow that way. Ok. And if Egypt doesn't open their borders, what % responsibility will Israel have in starving out 2 million people? How much direct responsibility for mass murder is acceptable?
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 9th October 2023 at 08:07 AM.

9th October 2023, 08:03 AM	#142
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,126	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Israel cannot blockade Gaza. Theres a border with Egypt that Egypt could open if they really decide they care about Palestinians and aide can flow that way. Israel is not controlling the border to Egypt?
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

9th October 2023, 08:05 AM	#143
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Israel cannot blockade Gaza. Theres a border with Egypt that Egypt could open if they really decide they care about Palestinians and aide can flow that way. Unless you are suggesting Israel is going to go to war with Egypt?? Blockade doesn't have to be 100% to hurt a lot of people
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

9th October 2023, 08:06 AM	#144
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by steenkh Israel is not controlling the border to Egypt? Between Gaza and Egypt?? Not that I'm aware of... the occupation of Sinai ended 41 years ago.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

9th October 2023, 08:06 AM	#145
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Israel has been engaged in a decades long project of ethnic cleansing. It's already been demonstrated, this is only an intensification of that process. Ethnic cleansing of Gaza? How's that supposed to work, when the Palestinian population has been consistently increasing? The only ethnic cleansing of Gaza that Israel ever did was of Jews. Israel ethnically cleansed the area of Jews, not Palestinians. Was that genocide? Did you complain? Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Do you assume that no innocent person will die as a result of a complete blockade? I didn't say that. There may well be. There will almost certainly be innocent civilian deaths from military operations against Hamas, because Hamas acts to ensure that. But the claim was genocide. Do you think Israel is planning genocide? Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 "If"? Are you not sure whether or not this is a call for genocide? I'm conceding the possibility for the sake of argument, not because of what I believe. Are you unfamiliar with such rhetorical methods?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

9th October 2023, 08:09 AM	#146
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Ok. And if Egypt doesn't open their borders, what % responsibility will Israel have in starving out 2 million people? How much direct responsibility for mass murder is acceptable? They're not going to starve 2 million people. Red Cross food aid will likely be allowed in, in a day or two. If they don't, Joe Biden will put pressure on them to do so.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

9th October 2023, 08:11 AM	#147
Gaetan Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,186	Who is responsible for Hamas' barbaric acts? My opinion is that these acts are the response to the injustice to the Palestinian people and to the inaction and cowardice of the international community, so the real culprits are those who provoked them like the support to injustice by the US government and the Israel government itself.
Gaetan Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,186

9th October 2023, 08:12 AM	#148
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 They're not going to starve 2 million people. Red Cross food aid will likely be allowed in, in a day or two. If they don't, Joe Biden will put pressure on them to do so. So you would agree that, hypothetically speaking, Israel interfering with the distribution of humanitarian aid would be a war crime, yes? I wish I shared your optimism.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

9th October 2023, 08:16 AM	#149
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost So you would agree that, hypothetically speaking, Israel interfering with the distribution of humanitarian aid would be a war crime, yes? I wish I shared your optimism. Yeah if they don't let legit NGO aid organizations in... it might get to that level. I believe Gaza has a port as well... is the Israeli Navy blockading it? They are not going to starve out 2 million people TG. The pressure put on them by the USA and EU after video of starving kids become available would be immense.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

9th October 2023, 08:17 AM	#150
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 They're not going to starve 2 million people. It almost feels like TG wants them to, in order to prove him right about how horrible Israel is. C.S. Lewis described the type: Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling, “Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,” or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

9th October 2023, 08:19 AM	#151
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere Else Posts: 5,785	Originally Posted by Gaetan The support of Joe Biden, other criminal corrupted pilitical leaders and some forumers toward Israel on this site are their contribution to the genocide planned by Netanyahu in Gaza. We live in a world more corrupted than ever. No
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

9th October 2023, 08:21 AM	#152
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Yeah if they don't let legit NGO aid organizations in... it might get to that level. I believe Gaza has a port as well... is the Israeli Navy blockading it? They are not going to starve out 2 million people TG. The pressure put on them by the USA and EU after video of starving kids become available would be immense. Yes, the Israeli Navy controls access to the Gaza ports. They allow fishing out for a few nautical miles and regularly intercept and inspect any shipments arriving that way. Presumably it would quite easy for them to enforce a total naval blockade if they follow through on their threat to isolate Gaza.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 9th October 2023 at 08:22 AM.

9th October 2023, 08:21 AM	#153
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost So you would agree that, hypothetically speaking, Israel interfering with the distribution of humanitarian aid would be a war crime, yes? I wish I shared your optimism. What do you consider "interfering"? Delaying for a few days? Making aid go through a screening process to ensure no arms are being smuggled in? "Interfering" is quite the broad category. And again, Egypt can let as much aid into Gaza as it wants. It doesn't have to go through Israel. Do you really think Egypt is going to block food aid? If people end up starving in Gaza, it will be because Hamas wants them to starve. And you're the reason why they might find it useful to do so.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

9th October 2023, 08:46 AM	#154
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 21,601	Originally Posted by Ziggurat It almost feels like TG wants them to, in order to prove him right about how horrible Israel is. C.S. Lewis described the type: Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling, “Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,” or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible? why make an actual argument when using a strawman is so much easier and quicker?
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

9th October 2023, 09:21 AM	#155
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza why make an actual argument when using a strawman is so much easier and quicker? That's ironic, coming from you. And I made my arguments against TG's position quite clear, they haven't exactly been refuted by you or him. If I'm wrong about TG's attitude, he's free to explain how.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law