How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Steve

One might indeed. The Palestinian people are responsible for their own government. Israel is not.

Are you suggesting that Palestinians are fair game targets because of the actions of their government? Probably not the best argument if you're going to cry about Israeli civilians being killed considering the monstrous acts of their own government performed in their name.

Originally Posted by Steve

And how is their current tactic working? And what exactly should the Israelis do instead when Hamas employs their current brutal tactic?

It's too early to tell, isn't it?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Steve

Love them non sequiturs.

I am merely pointing out that the US government is not neutral on this conflict, but rather are giving quite a bit of aid to Israel to take a hard line stance.

One wonders if Israel would have been more amenable to a negotiated peace if the US wasn't giving them carte blanche in the UN to act the way they have without sanction. As said before, nonviolence tactics only work if the oppressor is capable of being made to feel shame, which the US is using its considerable global power to prevent.

Giving Israel total unconditional support is only prolonging the conflict, because it emboldens the state to think they can aggressively conclude this conflict without making any concessions.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

What a fun game we play where the victims of oppression must be perfect victims in order to be worthy of consideration and sympathy.

Quite ironic, since this is exactly why you're showing no sympathy for Israel.

Quote:

Do the monstrous excesses of Hamas, such as the targeting of civilians during the recent breakout raids, negate the broader justification of Palestinian liberation?

Are you operating under the delusion that Hamas is trying to achieve Palestinian liberation?

They are not.

Quote:

I'm willing to see nuance in this conflict

No, you are not. You are willing to excuse Hamas and blame Israel. That isn't nuance.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Quite ironic, since this is exactly why you're showing no sympathy for Israel.

I have no sympathy for Israel because they have all the cards in the deck to end this thing and choose not to. Israel has never dealt with the Palestinians in good faith ever. not before Hamas and not after and never will unless something radical changes.

Their dream of a Zionist state doesn't allow them to negotiate with Palestinians.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I am merely pointing out that the US government is not neutral on this conflict, but rather are giving quite a bit of aid to Israel to take a hard line stance.

We should not be neutral in this conflict. It's not in our self interest to be.

But you're wrong, our aid has never been contingent upon them taking a hard line stance. It's almost always been the reverse: we've used it to pressure Israel to take softer positions.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I have no sympathy for Israel because they have all the cards in the deck to end this thing and chose not to.

You really have no clue, do you? The only way one side is EVER capable unilaterally preventing the other side from attacking it is if they exterminate the other side. And Israel has never been the side trying to achieve that. For the Palestinians to stop attacking Israel, they have to choose to stop, not matter what concessions Israel makes. And they can choose to stop whether or not Israel makes any concessions.

Quote:

Israel has never dealt with the Palestinians in good faith ever. not before Hamas and not after and never will unless something radical changes.

Not surprisingly, you have this backwards too.

How did Hamas respond to the unilateral withdrawal of Israeli settlers from Gaza? This was something that Hamas and the Palestinians more broadly wanted. Israel gave it to them, and demanded nothing in return. And what happened next?

Quote:

Their dream of a Zionist state doesn't allow them to negotiate with Palestinians.

And yet, they have negotiated time and time again. How do you handle the cognitive dissonance?

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

What a fun game we play where the victims of oppression must be perfect victims in order to be worthy of consideration and sympathy.

Yes because it's such a difficult choice not to commit indiscriminate mass-murder. Palestinian just can't keep themselves from gunning down 300 people at a concert.

Your problem is that you treat Hamas as representative of the Palestinian people. The fact that the the Palestinian Authority can restrain itself is ignored and the behavior of Hamas is treated as reasonable.

Quote:

I'm willing to see nuance in this conflict, because as with all conflicts there are no pure sides, but the Zionists do not want to see the issue as nuanced.

The kind of language and black and white thinking you demonstrate clearly indicate that you yourself are unable to see any "nuance".

[Steve]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

What a fun game we play where the victims of oppression must be perfect victims in order to be worthy of consideration and sympathy.

Do the monstrous excesses of Hamas, such as the targeting of civilians during the recent breakout raids, negate the broader justification of Palestinian liberation? Do these excesses excuse the monstrous behavior of the Zionist oppressors?

I'm willing to see nuance in this conflict, because as with all conflicts there are no pure sides, but ]the Zionists do not want to see the issue as nuanced.

Monstrous behavior occurs on both sides. There is no high road, as much as you would like to believe you are on one.

Your "see(ing) the nuance" appears to consist of hyperbolic criticism of only one faction. Hamas "targets" while Israel engages in "monstrous behavior".

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Steve

Monstrous behavior occurs on both sides. There is no high road, as much as you would like to believe you are on one.

Your "see(ing) the nuance" appears to consist of hyperbolic criticism of only one faction. Hamas "targets" while Israel engages in "monstrous behavior".

Ok, I agree. There are no high roads.

Who has more control over this situation generally? Who has the most ability to bring about some negotiated peace? Israel or the people in the open air prison of Gaza?

I hold Israel more culpable because they have far more ability to bring about a peace, if only they want it more than they want an ethnically cleansed homeland.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Ok, I agree. There are no high roads.

Who has more control over this situation generally? Who has the most ability to bring about some negotiated peace? Israel or the people in the open air prison of Gaza?

You cannot "bring peace" when your enemy has no interest in peace, no matter how powerful you are. Hamas doesn't want peace. You seem to be trying to interpret the situation as if they did, but they don't, and you will continue to get everything wrong until you recognize that.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You cannot "bring peace" when your enemy has no interest in peace, no matter how powerful you are. Hamas doesn't want peace. You seem to be trying to interpret the situation as if they did, but they don't, and you will continue to get everything wrong until you recognize that.

Israel could cut the legs out from under Hamas by making reasonable concessions to Palestinians.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Are you suggesting that Palestinians are fair game targets because of the actions of their government? Probably not the best argument if you're going to cry about Israeli civilians being killed considering the monstrous acts of their own government performed in their name.

I have "suggested" no such thing. Are you "suggesting " that Israel is responsible for the Gaza government?

And please point out where I am crying about Israeli (or Palestinian) civilians being killed. Civilian deaths during war are an unfortunate inevitable fact.

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

It's too early to tell, isn't it?

It is not too early to tell that the residents of Gaza are not going to come out better off in this current action.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I'm merely pointing out that all this pearl clutching about Hamas killing civilians is transparently cynical.

It takes two to tango, and Israel is perfectly content to consider Palestinian civilians as legitimate targets. There's no comparison, Israel has far more capacity for destruction, has all the leverage necessary to create a real chance at peace, and continues to prefer to kill civilians.

All these complaints about Israeli civilians being targeted are crocodile tears from one of the most vicious targeters of civilian populations on the planet.

How you wish it wasn’t so…

[Steve]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Ok, I agree. There are no high roads.

Who has more control over this situation generally? Who has the most ability to bring about some negotiated peace? Israel or the people in the open air prison of Gaza?

I hold Israel more culpable because they have far more ability to bring about a peace, if only they want it more than they want an ethnically cleansed homeland.

I concur with Ziggurat's response. Please show us where Hamas has made a concerted effort to bring about peace.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Steve

It is not too early to tell that the residents of Gaza are not going to come out better off in this current action.

No, probably not.

That generally how decolonial struggles go, good or bad. The oppressed make their continued oppression so god damn bloody, embarrassing (probably less of a factor in this case considering the reflexive Zionism in the West), and generally exhausting until the oppressor decides it's not worth it anymore.

Israel never gets tired of lobbing rockets into Gaza, but this cross border raid has reminded them that they also have something at risk by continuing this occupation, even if they can make Gaza howl for every Israeli killed. It's not like the Vietnamese or the Irish or the Algerians or any of the other successful decolonial struggles resulted in a total military defeat of the more powerful occupying army, they simply got too demoralized to continue the occupation.

Palestinians don't need to win, they just need to not lose and continue to make their existence a defiant nuisance to Israel, and history has shown they are incredibly resilient and are in it for the long haul.

Flip side of that is that Israel might decide that they'll just commit to outright genocide and purge the country of Palestinians entirely, which seems to be increasingly the stance of the government as a necessary evil.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

No, probably not.

That generally how decolonial struggles go, good or bad. The oppressed make their continued oppression so god damn bloody, embarrassing (probably less of a factor in this case considering the reflexive Zionism in the West), and generally exhausting until the oppressor decide it's not worth it anymore.

Israel never gets tired of lobbing rockets into Gaza, but this cross border raid has reminded them that they also have something at risk by continuing this war, even if they can make Gaza howl for every Israeli killed. It's not like the Vietnamese or the Irish or the Algerians or any of the other successful decolonial struggles resulted in a total military defeat of the more powerful occupying army, they simply got too demoralized to continue the occupation.

Palestinians don't need to win, they just need to not lose, and history has shown they are incredibly resilient and are in it for the long haul.

Flip side of that is that Israel might decide that they'll just commit to outright genocide and purge the country of Palestinians entirely, which seems to be increasingly the stance of the government as a necessary evil.

And slaughtering whole families, one by one, in their homes in just a small misstep isn't it. Its understandable.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Israel could cut the legs out from under Hamas by making reasonable concessions to Palestinians.

What are your proposed concessions?

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

No, probably not.

That generally how decolonial struggles go, good or bad. The oppressed make their continued oppression so god damn bloody, embarrassing (probably less of a factor in this case considering the reflexive Zionism in the West), and generally exhausting until the oppressor decides it's not worth it anymore.

Israel never gets tired of lobbing rockets into Gaza, but this cross border raid has reminded them that they also have something at risk by continuing this war, even if they can make Gaza howl for every Israeli killed. It's not like the Vietnamese or the Irish or the Algerians or any of the other successful decolonial struggles resulted in a total military defeat of the more powerful occupying army, they simply got too demoralized to continue the occupation.

Palestinians don't need to win, they just need to not lose and continue to make their existence a defiant nuisance to Israel, and history has shown they are incredibly resilient and are in it for the long haul.

Flip side of that is that Israel might decide that they'll just commit to outright genocide and purge the country of Palestinians entirely, which seems to be increasingly the stance of the government as a necessary evil.

Gaza is not a colony of Israel. Palestine was never an independent state. Your analogies to Algeria, Ireland, and especially Vietnam are nonsensical.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

And slaughtering whole families, one by one, in their homes in just a small misstep isn't it. Its understandable.

It would certainly be more ethical for these raids to more narrowly focus on legit military targets, but you must admit that it wouldn't make a difference in how the rest of the world reacts.

Any expression of Palestinian rights is met with the same response, you can understand, if not support, how people in that situation might do away with such asymmetrical moralism entirely.

[jt512]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

how dare YOU say that it's alright if the IDF acts as savagely as Hamas.

They don't. You are lying.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Israel could cut the legs out from under Hamas by making reasonable concessions to Palestinians.

And Hamas, who are dedicated to killing Jews, would just toss their guns and go.... where?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Gaza is not a colony of Israel. Palestine was never an independent state. Your analogies to Algeria, Ireland, and especially Vietnam are nonsensical.

Israel is settler colonialism. Algeria and Vietnam are probably bad examples as the French populations remained quite small, but settler colonialism is by no means unique to Israel. The American eradication of the native Americans and the British subjugation and settling of Ireland seem good parallels.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Gaza is not a colony of Israel. Palestine was never an independent state. Your analogies to Algeria, Ireland, and especially Vietnam are nonsensical.

When there are straws to be grasped at.....

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by jt512

They don't. You are lying.

It's more than alright, we'll give them huge amounts of support to do it.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

It would certainly be more ethical for these raids to more narrowly focus on legit military targets, but you must admit that it wouldn't make a difference in how the rest of the world reacts.

Any expression of Palestinian rights is met with the same response, you can understand, if not support, how people in that situation might do away with such asymmetrical moralism entirely.

Are you insane? You don't think there are people out there swayed by images of nearly naked German female corpses being paraded around by Hamas?!

ETA: BTW the concert Hamas attacked had a theme of peace, love, and understand... but hey it was only 3 miles from Gaza so they're fair game for murder?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Are you insane? You don't think there are people out there swayed by images of nearly naked German female corpses being paraded around by Hamas?!

Certainly not swaying TurkeysGhost's support of Hamas. Apparently just another "nuance" to be weighed.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Are you insane? You don't think there are people out there swayed by images of nearly naked German female corpses being paraded around by Hamas?!

Maybe, but I don't think the lack of those images would make much difference practically.

What's the difference between supporting Israel unconditionally and super duper supporting Israel unconditionally?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

ETA: BTW the concert Hamas attacked had a theme of peace, love, and understand... but hey it was only 3 miles from Gaza so they're fair game for murder?

Makes sense, only hippies would be so foolish as to think good vibes makes up for real harm. The aesthetics of peace, love, and understanding is not, in fact, a substitute for real peace, love, and understanding.

[lobosrul5]

BTW TG, Hamas executes suspected members of the LGBT community. No one is foolish enough to be out in the open in Gaza. Think about the next time you post on the trans rights threads here.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Maybe, but I don't think the lack of those images would make much difference practically.

What's the difference between supporting Israel unconditionally and super duper supporting Israel unconditionally?

Ooh, more hyperbole. I'll play too:

"What's the difference between killing Israelis (and others) unconditionally and super duper killing Israelis unconditionally?"

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Steve

Ooh, more hyperbole. I'll play too:

"What's the difference between killing Israelis (and others) unconditionally and super duper killing Israelis unconditionally?"

Same answer for both:

nothing

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Makes sense, only hippies would be so foolish as to think good vibes makes up for real harm. The aesthetics of peace, love, and understanding is not, in fact, a substitute for real peace, love, and understanding.

Yes, yes, its OK to murder hippies... do go on. Keep on digging that hole man.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Makes sense, only hippies would be so foolish as to think good vibes makes up for real harm. The aesthetics of peace, love, and understanding is not, in fact, a substitute for real peace, love, and understanding.

So legitimate targets in your view?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Steve

So legitimate targets in your view?

No, why would you read that into what I said?

Just very naive.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Yes, yes, its OK to murder hippies... do go on. Keep on digging that hole man.

It's ok to kill anyone except Gaza residents, it seems.

Anyone seen any actual examples of this:

"I'm willing to see nuance in this conflict"?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Are you insane? You don't think there are people out there swayed by images of nearly naked German female corpses being paraded around by Hamas?!

ETA: BTW the concert Hamas attacked had a theme of peace, love, and understand... but hey it was only 3 miles from Gaza so they're fair game for murder?

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Makes sense, only hippies would be so foolish as to think good vibes makes up for real harm. The aesthetics of peace, love, and understanding is not, in fact, a substitute for real peace, love, and understanding.

Originally Posted by Steve

So legitimate targets in your view?

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

No, why would you read that into what I said?

Just very naive.

See the hilites.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Who is responsible for Hamas' barbaric acts?

Take a look in the mirror. That might help.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Steve

See the hilites.

Ok, glad I can clear that up for you.

Throwing a big party right outside the open air prison where your nation treats 2 million people like vermin is a really, really bad idea.

It doesn't make the murder of noncombatants any more justified, but you have to wonder about how smart these people and if they really appreciate what exactly it is their government is doing to the Palestinians in their name.

I would simply not stick my head in a noose and hand the other end to a member of a population my government is trying to ethnically cleanse, but maybe I'm just too jaded

Do you think it's a good idea for Israelis to throw festivals three miles from the Gaza ghetto's walls? Would you feel safe?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Ok, glad I can clear that up for you.

Throwing a big party right outside the open air prison where your nation treats 2 million people like vermin is a really, really bad idea.

It doesn't make the murder of noncombatants any more justified, but you have to wonder about how smart these people and if they really appreciate what exactly it is their government is doing to the Palestinians in their name.

I would simply not stick my head in a noose and hand the other end to a member of a population my government is trying to ethnically cleanse, but maybe I'm just too jaded

Do you think it's a good idea for Israelis to throw festivals three miles from the Gaza ghetto's walls? Would you feel safe?

Ok then, thanks for confirming. Just serves them right for not realizing that Hamas just could not help themselves - basic out of control animal instinct, kinda like vermin. Therefore justified.

ETA: loving your well-considered nuance.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Steve

Ok then, thanks for confirming. Just serves them right for not realizing that Hamas just could not help themselves - basic out of control animal instinct, kinda like vermin. Therefore justified.

Whatever makes you feel better about supporting the abhorrent violence by the Israeli state that is clearly coming.

It will be interesting to see which politicians and celebrities remain firm in their "I stand with Israel" posts as the next few weeks go by, as they are likely to be incredibly brutal and one-sided.