How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas? - Page 7

Manger Douse · 9th October 2023, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Ok, glad I can clear that up for you.

Throwing a big party right outside the open air prison where your nation treats 2 million people like vermin is a really, really bad idea.

It doesn't make the murder of noncombatants any more justified, but you have to wonder about how smart these people and if they really appreciate what exactly it is their government is doing to the Palestinians in their name.

I would simply not stick my head in a noose and hand the other end to a member of a population my government is trying to ethnically cleanse, but maybe I'm just too jaded

Do you think it's a good idea for Israelis to throw festivals three miles from the Gaza ghetto's walls? Would you feel safe?

Maybe the hippies thought better of the Palestinians than to commit mass rape and murder?

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

Maybe the hippies thought better of the Palestinians than to commit mass rape and murder?

Even best case scenario is that they would be taken as hostages. Not very wise.

Manger Douse · 9th October 2023, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Even best case scenario is that they would be taken as hostages. Not very wise.

There's quite a bit of difference between being held hostage and what happened to those kids though no?

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

There's quite a bit of difference between being held hostage and what happened to those kids though no?

I was under the impression it was mix of both. Some got snatched and are currently live hostages and some got gunned down at the scene.

Steve · 9th October 2023, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Whatever makes you feel better about supporting the abhorrent violence by the Israeli state that is clearly coming.

It will be interesting to see which politicians and celebrities remain firm in their "I stand with Israel" posts as the next few weeks go by, as they are likely to be incredibly brutal and one-sided.

I do expect it to be brutal and one sided. I wonder why Hamas did not expect that? Or maybe they did and have no compunction about expending a large number of their fellow Palestinians (who have no choice in the matter) for the opportunity to kill some Jews. The reality is that Hamas shows no more concern for Palestinian lives than Israel does.

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Ok, glad I can clear that up for you.

Throwing a big party right outside the open air prison where your nation treats 2 million people like vermin is a really, really bad idea.

It doesn't make the murder of noncombatants any more justified, but you have to wonder about how smart these people and if they really appreciate what exactly it is their government is doing to the Palestinians in their name.

I would simply not stick my head in a noose and hand the other end to a member of a population my government is trying to ethnically cleanse, but maybe I'm just too jaded

Do you think it's a good idea for Israelis to throw festivals three miles from the Gaza ghetto's walls? Would you feel safe?

Do you realize that probably a significant number of these people were against Israeli policies. And that also, some of them were foreign nationals?

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Do you realize that probably a significant number of these people were against Israeli policies. And that also, some of them were foreign nationals?

It does'nt matter, it is all for the revolution.

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

. And that also, some of them were foreign nationals?

Definitely would not consider an active warzone and/or apartheid state to be a prime vacation pick.

Arcade22 · 9th October 2023, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

It would certainly be more ethical for these raids to more narrowly focus on legit military targets, but you must admit that it wouldn't make a difference in how the rest of the world reacts.

Any expression of Palestinian rights is met with the same response, you can understand, if not support, how people in that situation might do away with such asymmetrical moralism entirely.

This is what you might call red-herring excuses, in this case it's excuses for mass murder. You are literally excusing terrorists murdering whole families, and threatening to do it again while filming and broadcasting it.

It's laughable that you claim to be able to perceive "nuance" when you are literally apologizing for the worst kind of terrorism possible. Hamas behavior is comparable to IS gratuitously and sadistically torturing people to death in front of cameras and publishing it online, and you are literally excusing them.

It shouldn't have to be said but since some people apparently do not get it i guess i have to: there are limits to what kind of behavior is reasonable to any real or perceived oppression and in this case it is so far from reasonable as you might come. Sometimes the "freedom fighter" literally is worse than the "oppressor", especially considering what kind of "freedom" they are fighting for.

Manger Douse · 9th October 2023, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I was under the impression it was mix of both. Some got snatched and are currently live hostages and some got gunned down at the scene.

You know the ones I'm talking about - the big, wanton mass sexual assault elephant that's going to be stinking up the #freepally room for a long time to come - "they shouldn't have gone out dressed like that" isn't going to make the stink go away

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Definitely would not consider an active warzone and/or apartheid state to be a prime vacation pick.

Israel was neither of those things until 2 days ago.

ETA: and BTW, while I don't condemn Ukraine for attacking infrastructure where vacationing Russian's may, and a couple of times have, been killed. I would absolutely condemn them strafing Russian children sunbathing on Crimean beaches with machine guns.

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

I do expect it to be brutal and one sided. I wonder why Hamas did not expect that? Or maybe they did and have no compunction about expending a large number of their fellow Palestinians (who have no choice in the matter) for the opportunity to kill some Jews. The reality is that Hamas shows no more concern for Palestinian lives than Israel does.

That's probably why the current PM thought supporting Hamas was a necessary component of their Zionist project:

Quote:

According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2018, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-ye...-in-our-faces/

Zionist hard liners saw Hamas extremists preferable to a united Palestinian people working towards the common goal of liberation. Blowback do be blowing back sometimes

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

I concur with Ziggurat's response. Please show us where Hamas has made a concerted effort to bring about peace.

It has"nt. It's basic aim..and it's own manifesto says so..is the destruction of Israel.

TurkeysGhost · 9th October 2023, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

This is what you might call red-herring excuses, in this case it's excuses for mass murder. You are literally excusing terrorists murdering whole families, and threatening to do it again while filming and broadcasting it.

It's laughable that you claim to be able to perceive "nuance" when you are literally apologizing for the worst kind of terrorism possible. Hamas behavior is comparable to IS gratuitously and sadistically torturing people to death in front of cameras and publishing it online, and you are literally excusing them.

It shouldn't have to be said but since some people apparently do not get it: there are limits to what kind of behavior is reasonable to any real or perceived oppression and in this case it is so far from reasonable as you might come.

How are you quantifying that? I would certainly consider bombing an apartment block a bit worse, but your mileage may vary.

I suppose my contrarianism is party just from being tired of the strategic pearl clutching of Zionists, who are rightly outraged by Hamas excesses, but their respect for human rights are nowhere to be found when the IDF is collapsing buildings on top of civilians or when settlers are ethnically cleansing Israel with state support.

Ziggurat · 9th October 2023, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Israel could cut the legs out from under Hamas by making reasonable concessions to Palestinians.

THEY DID! They pulled all the settlers out of Gaza. Did that cut the legs out from under Hamas? No, it did not.

You really are under some deep, deep delusions about the nature of Hamas, what they want, and how they stay in power. No amount of concessions from Israel will ever weaken Hamas. That's not how any of this works.

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 01:48 PM

Living Proof that the Left can be just supportive as evil as the right.

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

You know the ones I'm talking about - the big, wanton mass sexual assault elephant that's going to be stinking up the #freepally room for a long time to come - "they shouldn't have gone out dressed like that" isn't going to make the stink go away

I wonder if anyone is under any illusions that Hamas hasn't raped some of these women?

TG: is gang rape OK in the name of freedom too?

Steve · 9th October 2023, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

It has"nt. It's basic aim..and it's own manifesto says so..is the destruction of Israel.

That I know, and I have posted as much. My post was an opportunity for TurkeysGhost to back up his illusions with a fact or two. He seems to have declined to do so.

Hercules56 · 9th October 2023, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Israel could cut the legs out from under Hamas by making reasonable concessions to Palestinians.

As part of the Israel-Saudi peace deal, Israel was being pressured to turn over parts of Area A to Area C (full Palestinian control). This would have been a great step forward towards Palestinian statehood and putting more Arabs under Arab control.

This is EXACTLY why Hamas attacked. They terribly feared the idea of a Saudi-Israel peace deal and Israel giving the Palestine Authority more territory. They knew that in exchange for peace with the Saudis (major prize) Israel was going to have to make a major concession.

This was a desperate attempt by Hamas to STOP peaceful coexistence between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world.

Arcade22 · 9th October 2023, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

How are you quantifying that? I would certainly consider bombing an apartment block a bit worse, but your mileage may vary.

"bombing an apartment block"? For someone asking me to "quantify" anything you put forth an example that is so utterly vague as to be worthless. "bombing an apartment block" could mean just about anything.

In any case, The fact that you seem incapable of realizing that torturing and murdering people (especially civilians) and filming it and broadcasting is worse than "bombing an apartment block" is telling enough by itself.

Hint: it's possible to minimize actual loss of life and limb in one while in the other it's an inherent and integral part. Can you guess which is which?

Quote:

I suppose my contrarianism is party just from being tired of the strategic pearl clutching of Zionists, who are rightly outraged by Hamas excesses, but are nowhere to be found when the IDF is collapsing buildings on top of civilians or when settlers are ethnically cleansing Israel with state support.

I'd take it for granted that your ignorant and reflexive defense of all kinds of crimes against "zionists" (which apparently means all Israelis) is driven by some sort of general error in your thinking.

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 02:02 PM

HAMAS is now opening threatning to execute hostages.
My own attitude is simple: HAMAS is no better then the Nazis, and should be treated as such. I would have no more compunction about shooting a HAMAS "Freedom Fighter" then I would a mad dog.

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 02:05 PM

Hopefuly some people here will finally see that the extreme left can be just as supportive of evil as the extreme right.
ANd Religion has nothing on political ideology when it comes to causing people to do evil.

Steve · 9th October 2023, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Hopefuly some people here will finally see that the extreme left can be just as supportive of evil as the extreme right.
ANd Religion has nothing on political ideology when it comes to causing people to do evil.

Indeed, and all too frequently it can be hard to differentiate between religion and political ideology.

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Hopefuly some people here will finally see that the extreme left can be just as supportive of evil as the extreme right.
ANd Religion has nothing on political ideology when it comes to causing people to do evil.

dudalb, I think most of us know this. But I'm getting more and more of a: the extreme left and right are just this mish mash of people with cognitive dissonance who are just always going to be "against" the other side. I think if TG stopped to think about it, he'd see how far from his values Hamas is. Sometimes its as if political ideologies are like a circle, if you go too far one way you don't look all that different from the other extreme.

crescent · 9th October 2023, 02:46 PM

Lots of footage now coming out showing Hamas raids on some Kibbutzes.

Memorial posts also for the families killed. They killed parents as the parents tried to shield their children, then they killed the children. Over 100 dead in one kibbutz alone.

I think what gets people is the in-person brutality of it.

Order people to evacuate an area and then bomb a building in that area from 30,000 feet. You never see anyone, you can tell yourself that they evacuated as ordered.

vs.

Shoot parents right there in front of you, with the parents dying knowing that you'll kill the kids next. You deliberately prevent them from getting away just so you can kill them.

There may be a significant international response. It seems like a dozen Thai employees were killed in one of the kibbutzes, a roughly equal number taken hostage. 10 Nepali people killed and at least four taken hostage. Two Ukrainians killed, some Americans killed and some taken hostage. Germans and Italians also killed or taken.

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Indeed, and all too frequently it can be hard to differentiate between religion and political ideology.

A historian named Michael Burleigh has written a lot on what he termed "Secular Religions" political mass movement that has the elements of a religion except they don;t give a big role to the supernatural (and in the case of one of the worst of them, Communism, on paper oppose it) and caused much of the misery that infected the 20th century.

Vixen · 9th October 2023, 02:56 PM

There is a lot of whataboutism that appears to try to justify terrorism (by terrorism here, one means the type where innocent civilians going about their everyday lives are brutalised by armed attackers or suicide-belted jihadists). Yes, Israel is an artificial state set up in 1948 to provide a home for displaced Jews, having been long planned since the earliest part of the twentieth century. Many countries are relatively new. (Italy, Germany, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc.). Yes, you can argue that the Israelis are an occupying force that removed ethnic Palestinians who had been there forever and razed their villages to make way for the new regime. The Israeli system has a strict apartheid system where Palestinians are not free to enter areas designated 'Israeli only', except for authorised work and then they are searched every time they cross over. Unemployment is as high as 70% for the youth of Gaza. Bedouin Palestinians are no longer allowed to roam as the nomads they traditionally are/were. When I visited the Golan Heights, I was allowed to as a tourist on a coach (Palestinians are barred). It was heartbreaking to see so many former Palestinian villages completely razed to the ground in a lovely part of the world, whole villages of rubble, abandoned as ghost towns. Half way through the journey a bunch of armed Israeli soldiers boarded the coach and stared at each of us one by one. It was quite unnerving. I was nervous the whole time I was there. The day after we left Jerusalem for the next part of our Holy Land tour, four rabbis were brutally murdered by Islamist terrorists. The Palestinians were lovely friendly people, as too, were the Israelis, who showed us how to dance Israeli-style.

So yes, the Palestinians, especially in the Gaza strip, just 25-miles long and fenced in with barbed wire with a population of 2.5m, are oppressed, live in poverty and overcrowding and have a genuine cause for grievance.

But to say the Hamas attack on innocent Israelis and other people caught in their paths over the past few days was in any way justified is grossly twisted pseudo-logic. Whilst the Israeli regime is brutal in its constitution, nonetheless it is a recognised country and its peoples should be allowed to live in peace, whether or not one agrees or approves of its ultra-conservative politics.

Yes, Israeli soldiers brutally raze the homes of any Palestinian that is convicted of crimes against the Israeli Defence Forces, however minor, victimizing the person's entire family.

But Israelis do not put on suicide vests and blow up buses full of school children. Israelis do not roam the streets with knives, raping and desecrating the bodies of random women in the street or taking videos of random Palestinians being beheaded or holding men, women and children hostage.

Having seen the videos on social media of three women being forcibly kidnapped by crowds of armed, leering and contemptuous men, spat on, limbs broken, being paraded with bloody arms and pants, pulled by the hair and dragged into a jeep full of hate-fuelled men, I am at a loss to understand how anyone can take to the street to celebrated the Hamas' disgusting acts of depravity. Chasing terrified young festival goers with machine guns. It must have been so frightening and terrifying for anyone caught up in this wanton savagery.

**** off with the rationalizations.

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

No, not "OK". Just understandable in context. An unfortunate excess of the liberation process... like the killing fields.

Or the destruction of the "Backward Peasents" in Stalin's Russia.
Or the elimnation of "reactionaries: during Mao's Cultural Revolution.

The list goes on.

And all of these actions had entusiastic supporters on the far left in the West.
Hell, even today Noam Chomsky continues to defend the Pol Pot regime.

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 02:59 PM

Just saw footage of the Israelis towing up a 155mm Howtizer, same as I crewed when I was in the US Army. This is going to be very, very, ugly.
But Israel has really no choice. And I despise Bibi and his regime.

Dr.Sid · 9th October 2023, 03:01 PM

So .. what SHOULD Israel do ?

trustbutverify · 9th October 2023, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

I'd take it for granted that your ignorant and reflexive defense of all kinds of crimes against "zionists" (which apparently means all Israelis) is driven by some sort of general error in your thinking.

I'm just grateful it doesn't mean all Jews.

Yet.

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

I'm just grateful it doesn't mean all Jews.

Yet.

Thye are like Stalin..it will take some time for them to work themselves into a all Jews are oppresors of the people policy.

Planigale · 9th October 2023, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

"bombing an apartment block"? For someone asking me to "quantify" anything you put forth an example that is so utterly vague as to be worthless. "bombing an apartment block" could mean just about anything.

In any case, The fact that you seem incapable of realizing that torturing and murdering people (especially civilians) and filming it and broadcasting is worse than "bombing an apartment block" is telling enough by itself.

Hint: it's possible to minimize actual loss of life and limb in one while in the other it's an inherent and integral part. Can you guess which is which?

I'd take it for granted that your ignorant and reflexive defense of all kinds of crimes against "zionists" (which apparently means all Israelis) is driven by some sort of general error in your thinking.

How many Palestinian children does Israel hold in prison under administrative detention? That means detained without a warrant, without right to a lawyer, without knowing the reason for detention, without trial, without limit?

International law is clear civilians in occupied territories should not be subject to Military courts by the occupying power. Yet this is what hundreds of palestinian children some as young as twelve are subject to. Often to pressurise parents into collaboration with the occupying power.

I give a reference to settler violence against Palestinians including murder that IDF occupying forces take no action about.

https://www.btselem.org/topic/settler_violence

Planigale · 9th October 2023, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Just saw footage of the Israelis towing up a 155mm Howtizer, same as I crewed when I was in the US Army. This is going to be very, very, ugly.
But Israel has really no choice. And I despise Bibi and his regime.

Actually the Israeli government does have a choice, commit war crimes or not. Because Hammas are criminal does not mean the IDF have to be ordered to commit war crimes.

Planigale · 9th October 2023, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

HAMAS is now opening threatning to execute hostages.
My own attitude is simple: HAMAS is no better then the Nazis, and should be treated as such. I would have no more compunction about shooting a HAMAS "Freedom Fighter" then I would a mad dog.

Yet the 'Allies' thought it was important that Nazis weren't just shot, but were subject to a judicial process. That an international standard of behaviour even in war was established, that included such principles as ethnic cleansing of indigenous people from occupied territories would constitute a war crime.

One crime does not justify another; that the Israel state has been subjecting the Palestinians to war crimes for years does not justify Palestinian resistance movements committing crimes.

Planigale · 9th October 2023, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

This is what you might call red-herring excuses, in this case it's excuses for mass murder. You are literally excusing terrorists murdering whole families, and threatening to do it again while filming and broadcasting it.

It's laughable that you claim to be able to perceive "nuance" when you are literally apologizing for the worst kind of terrorism possible. Hamas behavior is comparable to IS gratuitously and sadistically torturing people to death in front of cameras and publishing it online, and you are literally excusing them.

It shouldn't have to be said but since some people apparently do not get it i guess i have to: there are limits to what kind of behavior is reasonable to any real or perceived oppression and in this case it is so far from reasonable as you might come. Sometimes the "freedom fighter" literally is worse than the "oppressor", especially considering what kind of "freedom" they are fighting for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_...atila_massacre

lobosrul5 · 9th October 2023, 04:29 PM

NVM

crescent · 9th October 2023, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

So .. what SHOULD Israel do ?

That's a subject worthy of its own thread.

Israel needs to get Gazans to stop supporting Hamas. To do that there needs to be an alternative to Hamas.

Fortunately, one already exists: The Palestinian Authority (PA).

So work with the PA and Arab governments to make the PA a viable alternative with the West Bank as a model for how good things could be in Gaza.

That would require an enormous sea change in how both Israel and the PA act. Make West Bank into a relatively undivided, non-corrupt self governing place. Stop all Israeli population expansion outside East Jerusalem and Hebron, and confine the Israeli portions of those cities to their existing footprints.

Give Israeli citizenship to any Palestinians still living in East Jerusalem and Hebron (to those that don't already have it, I mean).

REMOVE ALL SETTLERS from the rest of the West Bank. If they refuse, make them Palestinian citizens, subject to Palestinian law.

Make a viable alternative to Hamas. Israel has the power to do that.

But never will. Israel doesn't want that and neither does Hamas. They prefer killing each other - they really do. Pox on both their houses.

dudalb · 9th October 2023, 04:32 PM

Biden just annolunced it is "Probable" that US CItiznes are among the Hostages...whcih can be taken that there are US Hostages.
If A American Hostage is executed by HAMAS and it is televisend, they just go themselves a new enemy.

webfusion · 9th October 2023, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Planigale

How many Palestinian children does Israel hold in prison under administrative detention?

147 (source: June 2023 B'Tzelem, quoting IPS)

Quote:

That means detained without a warrant, without right to a lawyer, without knowing the reason for detention, without trial, without limit?

Nope. That's not accurate, Admin.Detainees have lawyers, know more or less why they are incarcerated, and have appearances in front of tribunals to review (and extend if needed) their nominal terms of a three-to-six-month period.

Quote:

International law is clear civilians in occupied territories should not be subject to Military courts by the occupying power. Yet this is what hundreds of palestinian children some as young as twelve are subject to. Often to pressurise parents into collaboration with the occupying power.

Most of these minors are older teens, not yet 20, but in the range of 17-19, and they're fully capable combatants, ready and able to kill Jews. The Israelis prefer to hold them in pre-emptive detainment to avoid that outcome.
Furthermore, using the term 'civilians' is misleading.
They're active (and violent) participants in the jihadist enterprise.
The 12-year-olds are not the ones Israel focuses on, but rather, the older 'children' who throw molotov bombs, ambush vehicles, and riot.

Quote:

I give a reference to settler violence against Palestinians including murder that IDF occupying forces take no action about.
https://www.btselem.org/topic/settler_violence

Jews suspected of violence against Palestinians are also placed into AdminDet.
It's just not very common, because so few Israeli Jews (settlers or otherwise) are intent upon killing Arabs.

9th October 2023, 01:33 PM	#242
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by Manger Douse Maybe the hippies thought better of the Palestinians than to commit mass rape and murder? Even best case scenario is that they would be taken as hostages. Not very wise.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

9th October 2023, 01:41 PM	#244
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by Manger Douse There's quite a bit of difference between being held hostage and what happened to those kids though no? I was under the impression it was mix of both. Some got snatched and are currently live hostages and some got gunned down at the scene.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

9th October 2023, 01:42 PM	#245
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 13,458	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Whatever makes you feel better about supporting the abhorrent violence by the Israeli state that is clearly coming. It will be interesting to see which politicians and celebrities remain firm in their "I stand with Israel" posts as the next few weeks go by, as they are likely to be incredibly brutal and one-sided. I do expect it to be brutal and one sided. I wonder why Hamas did not expect that? Or maybe they did and have no compunction about expending a large number of their fellow Palestinians (who have no choice in the matter) for the opportunity to kill some Jews. The reality is that Hamas shows no more concern for Palestinian lives than Israel does.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

9th October 2023, 01:42 PM	#246
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Ok, glad I can clear that up for you. Throwing a big party right outside the open air prison where your nation treats 2 million people like vermin is a really, really bad idea. It doesn't make the murder of noncombatants any more justified, but you have to wonder about how smart these people and if they really appreciate what exactly it is their government is doing to the Palestinians in their name. I would simply not stick my head in a noose and hand the other end to a member of a population my government is trying to ethnically cleanse, but maybe I'm just too jaded Do you think it's a good idea for Israelis to throw festivals three miles from the Gaza ghetto's walls? Would you feel safe? Do you realize that probably a significant number of these people were against Israeli policies. And that also, some of them were foreign nationals?
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

9th October 2023, 01:43 PM	#248
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 . And that also, some of them were foreign nationals? Definitely would not consider an active warzone and/or apartheid state to be a prime vacation pick.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

9th October 2023, 01:32 PM	#241
Manger Douse Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,066	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Ok, glad I can clear that up for you. Throwing a big party right outside the open air prison where your nation treats 2 million people like vermin is a really, really bad idea. It doesn't make the murder of noncombatants any more justified, but you have to wonder about how smart these people and if they really appreciate what exactly it is their government is doing to the Palestinians in their name. I would simply not stick my head in a noose and hand the other end to a member of a population my government is trying to ethnically cleanse, but maybe I'm just too jaded Do you think it's a good idea for Israelis to throw festivals three miles from the Gaza ghetto's walls? Would you feel safe? Maybe the hippies thought better of the Palestinians than to commit mass rape and murder?

9th October 2023, 01:38 PM	#243
Manger Douse Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,066	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Even best case scenario is that they would be taken as hostages. Not very wise. There's quite a bit of difference between being held hostage and what happened to those kids though no?

9th October 2023, 01:43 PM	#247
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Do you realize that probably a significant number of these people were against Israeli policies. And that also, some of them were foreign nationals? It does'nt matter, it is all for the revolution.

9th October 2023, 01:44 PM	#249
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,693	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost It would certainly be more ethical for these raids to more narrowly focus on legit military targets, but you must admit that it wouldn't make a difference in how the rest of the world reacts. Any expression of Palestinian rights is met with the same response, you can understand, if not support, how people in that situation might do away with such asymmetrical moralism entirely. This is what you might call red-herring excuses, in this case it's excuses for mass murder. You are literally excusing terrorists murdering whole families, and threatening to do it again while filming and broadcasting it. It's laughable that you claim to be able to perceive "nuance" when you are literally apologizing for the worst kind of terrorism possible. Hamas behavior is comparable to IS gratuitously and sadistically torturing people to death in front of cameras and publishing it online, and you are literally excusing them. It shouldn't have to be said but since some people apparently do not get it i guess i have to: there are limits to what kind of behavior is reasonable to any real or perceived oppression and in this case it is so far from reasonable as you might come. Sometimes the "freedom fighter" literally is worse than the "oppressor", especially considering what kind of "freedom" they are fighting for.
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann Last edited by Arcade22; 9th October 2023 at 01:47 PM.

9th October 2023, 01:45 PM	#250
Manger Douse Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,066	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost I was under the impression it was mix of both. Some got snatched and are currently live hostages and some got gunned down at the scene. You know the ones I'm talking about - the big, wanton mass sexual assault elephant that's going to be stinking up the #freepally room for a long time to come - "they shouldn't have gone out dressed like that" isn't going to make the stink go away

9th October 2023, 01:45 PM	#251
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Definitely would not consider an active warzone and/or apartheid state to be a prime vacation pick. Israel was neither of those things until 2 days ago. ETA: and BTW, while I don't condemn Ukraine for attacking infrastructure where vacationing Russian's may, and a couple of times have, been killed. I would absolutely condemn them strafing Russian children sunbathing on Crimean beaches with machine guns.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Last edited by lobosrul5; 9th October 2023 at 01:47 PM.

9th October 2023, 01:46 PM	#252
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by Steve I do expect it to be brutal and one sided. I wonder why Hamas did not expect that? Or maybe they did and have no compunction about expending a large number of their fellow Palestinians (who have no choice in the matter) for the opportunity to kill some Jews. The reality is that Hamas shows no more concern for Palestinian lives than Israel does. That's probably why the current PM thought supporting Hamas was a necessary component of their Zionist project: Quote: According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2018, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-ye...-in-our-faces/ Zionist hard liners saw Hamas extremists preferable to a united Palestinian people working towards the common goal of liberation. Blowback do be blowing back sometimes
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

9th October 2023, 01:47 PM	#253
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Originally Posted by Steve I concur with Ziggurat's response. Please show us where Hamas has made a concerted effort to bring about peace. It has"nt. It's basic aim..and it's own manifesto says so..is the destruction of Israel.

9th October 2023, 01:47 PM	#254
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 35,043	Originally Posted by Arcade22 This is what you might call red-herring excuses, in this case it's excuses for mass murder. You are literally excusing terrorists murdering whole families, and threatening to do it again while filming and broadcasting it. It's laughable that you claim to be able to perceive "nuance" when you are literally apologizing for the worst kind of terrorism possible. Hamas behavior is comparable to IS gratuitously and sadistically torturing people to death in front of cameras and publishing it online, and you are literally excusing them. It shouldn't have to be said but since some people apparently do not get it: there are limits to what kind of behavior is reasonable to any real or perceived oppression and in this case it is so far from reasonable as you might come. How are you quantifying that? I would certainly consider bombing an apartment block a bit worse, but your mileage may vary. I suppose my contrarianism is party just from being tired of the strategic pearl clutching of Zionists, who are rightly outraged by Hamas excesses, but their respect for human rights are nowhere to be found when the IDF is collapsing buildings on top of civilians or when settlers are ethnically cleansing Israel with state support.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 9th October 2023 at 01:50 PM.

9th October 2023, 01:48 PM	#255
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,297	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Israel could cut the legs out from under Hamas by making reasonable concessions to Palestinians. THEY DID! They pulled all the settlers out of Gaza. Did that cut the legs out from under Hamas? No, it did not. You really are under some deep, deep delusions about the nature of Hamas, what they want, and how they stay in power. No amount of concessions from Israel will ever weaken Hamas. That's not how any of this works.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

9th October 2023, 01:48 PM	#256
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Living Proof that the Left can be just supportive as evil as the right.

9th October 2023, 01:49 PM	#257
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by Manger Douse You know the ones I'm talking about - the big, wanton mass sexual assault elephant that's going to be stinking up the #freepally room for a long time to come - "they shouldn't have gone out dressed like that" isn't going to make the stink go away I wonder if anyone is under any illusions that Hamas hasn't raped some of these women? TG: is gang rape OK in the name of freedom too?
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

9th October 2023, 01:55 PM	#258
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 13,458	Originally Posted by dudalb It has"nt. It's basic aim..and it's own manifesto says so..is the destruction of Israel. That I know, and I have posted as much. My post was an opportunity for TurkeysGhost to back up his illusions with a fact or two. He seems to have declined to do so.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

9th October 2023, 01:57 PM	#259
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7,535	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Israel could cut the legs out from under Hamas by making reasonable concessions to Palestinians. As part of the Israel-Saudi peace deal, Israel was being pressured to turn over parts of Area A to Area C (full Palestinian control). This would have been a great step forward towards Palestinian statehood and putting more Arabs under Arab control. This is EXACTLY why Hamas attacked. They terribly feared the idea of a Saudi-Israel peace deal and Israel giving the Palestine Authority more territory. They knew that in exchange for peace with the Saudis (major prize) Israel was going to have to make a major concession. This was a desperate attempt by Hamas to STOP peaceful coexistence between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 7,535	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

9th October 2023, 02:00 PM	#260
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,693	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost How are you quantifying that? I would certainly consider bombing an apartment block a bit worse, but your mileage may vary. "bombing an apartment block"? For someone asking me to "quantify" anything you put forth an example that is so utterly vague as to be worthless. "bombing an apartment block" could mean just about anything. In any case, The fact that you seem incapable of realizing that torturing and murdering people (especially civilians) and filming it and broadcasting is worse than "bombing an apartment block" is telling enough by itself. Hint: it's possible to minimize actual loss of life and limb in one while in the other it's an inherent and integral part. Can you guess which is which? Quote: I suppose my contrarianism is party just from being tired of the strategic pearl clutching of Zionists, who are rightly outraged by Hamas excesses, but are nowhere to be found when the IDF is collapsing buildings on top of civilians or when settlers are ethnically cleansing Israel with state support. I'd take it for granted that your ignorant and reflexive defense of all kinds of crimes against "zionists" (which apparently means all Israelis) is driven by some sort of general error in your thinking.
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann Last edited by Arcade22; 9th October 2023 at 02:05 PM.

9th October 2023, 02:02 PM	#261
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	HAMAS is now opening threatning to execute hostages. My own attitude is simple: HAMAS is no better then the Nazis, and should be treated as such. I would have no more compunction about shooting a HAMAS "Freedom Fighter" then I would a mad dog.

9th October 2023, 02:05 PM	#262
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Hopefuly some people here will finally see that the extreme left can be just as supportive of evil as the extreme right. ANd Religion has nothing on political ideology when it comes to causing people to do evil.

9th October 2023, 02:09 PM	#263
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 13,458	Originally Posted by dudalb Hopefuly some people here will finally see that the extreme left can be just as supportive of evil as the extreme right. ANd Religion has nothing on political ideology when it comes to causing people to do evil. Indeed, and all too frequently it can be hard to differentiate between religion and political ideology.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

9th October 2023, 02:15 PM	#264
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718	Originally Posted by dudalb Hopefuly some people here will finally see that the extreme left can be just as supportive of evil as the extreme right. ANd Religion has nothing on political ideology when it comes to causing people to do evil. dudalb, I think most of us know this. But I'm getting more and more of a: the extreme left and right are just this mish mash of people with cognitive dissonance who are just always going to be "against" the other side. I think if TG stopped to think about it, he'd see how far from his values Hamas is. Sometimes its as if political ideologies are like a circle, if you go too far one way you don't look all that different from the other extreme.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,718

9th October 2023, 02:46 PM	#265
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,591	Lots of footage now coming out showing Hamas raids on some Kibbutzes. Memorial posts also for the families killed. They killed parents as the parents tried to shield their children, then they killed the children. Over 100 dead in one kibbutz alone. I think what gets people is the in-person brutality of it. Order people to evacuate an area and then bomb a building in that area from 30,000 feet. You never see anyone, you can tell yourself that they evacuated as ordered. vs. Shoot parents right there in front of you, with the parents dying knowing that you'll kill the kids next. You deliberately prevent them from getting away just so you can kill them. There may be a significant international response. It seems like a dozen Thai employees were killed in one of the kibbutzes, a roughly equal number taken hostage. 10 Nepali people killed and at least four taken hostage. Two Ukrainians killed, some Americans killed and some taken hostage. Germans and Italians also killed or taken.

9th October 2023, 02:54 PM	#266
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Originally Posted by Steve Indeed, and all too frequently it can be hard to differentiate between religion and political ideology. A historian named Michael Burleigh has written a lot on what he termed "Secular Religions" political mass movement that has the elements of a religion except they don;t give a big role to the supernatural (and in the case of one of the worst of them, Communism, on paper oppose it) and caused much of the misery that infected the 20th century.

9th October 2023, 02:56 PM	#267
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	There is a lot of whataboutism that appears to try to justify terrorism (by terrorism here, one means the type where innocent civilians going about their everyday lives are brutalised by armed attackers or suicide-belted jihadists). Yes, Israel is an artificial state set up in 1948 to provide a home for displaced Jews, having been long planned since the earliest part of the twentieth century. Many countries are relatively new. (Italy, Germany, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc.). Yes, you can argue that the Israelis are an occupying force that removed ethnic Palestinians who had been there forever and razed their villages to make way for the new regime. The Israeli system has a strict apartheid system where Palestinians are not free to enter areas designated 'Israeli only', except for authorised work and then they are searched every time they cross over. Unemployment is as high as 70% for the youth of Gaza. Bedouin Palestinians are no longer allowed to roam as the nomads they traditionally are/were. When I visited the Golan Heights, I was allowed to as a tourist on a coach (Palestinians are barred). It was heartbreaking to see so many former Palestinian villages completely razed to the ground in a lovely part of the world, whole villages of rubble, abandoned as ghost towns. Half way through the journey a bunch of armed Israeli soldiers boarded the coach and stared at each of us one by one. It was quite unnerving. I was nervous the whole time I was there. The day after we left Jerusalem for the next part of our Holy Land tour, four rabbis were brutally murdered by Islamist terrorists. The Palestinians were lovely friendly people, as too, were the Israelis, who showed us how to dance Israeli-style. So yes, the Palestinians, especially in the Gaza strip, just 25-miles long and fenced in with barbed wire with a population of 2.5m, are oppressed, live in poverty and overcrowding and have a genuine cause for grievance. But to say the Hamas attack on innocent Israelis and other people caught in their paths over the past few days was in any way justified is grossly twisted pseudo-logic. Whilst the Israeli regime is brutal in its constitution, nonetheless it is a recognised country and its peoples should be allowed to live in peace, whether or not one agrees or approves of its ultra-conservative politics. Yes, Israeli soldiers brutally raze the homes of any Palestinian that is convicted of crimes against the Israeli Defence Forces, however minor, victimizing the person's entire family. But Israelis do not put on suicide vests and blow up buses full of school children. Israelis do not roam the streets with knives, raping and desecrating the bodies of random women in the street or taking videos of random Palestinians being beheaded or holding men, women and children hostage. Having seen the videos on social media of three women being forcibly kidnapped by crowds of armed, leering and contemptuous men, spat on, limbs broken, being paraded with bloody arms and pants, pulled by the hair and dragged into a jeep full of hate-fuelled men, I am at a loss to understand how anyone can take to the street to celebrated the Hamas' disgusting acts of depravity. Chasing terrified young festival goers with machine guns. It must have been so frightening and terrifying for anyone caught up in this wanton savagery. **** off with the rationalizations.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

9th October 2023, 02:57 PM	#268
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Originally Posted by trustbutverify No, not "OK". Just understandable in context. An unfortunate excess of the liberation process... like the killing fields. Or the destruction of the "Backward Peasents" in Stalin's Russia. Or the elimnation of "reactionaries: during Mao's Cultural Revolution. The list goes on. And all of these actions had entusiastic supporters on the far left in the West. Hell, even today Noam Chomsky continues to defend the Pol Pot regime.

9th October 2023, 02:59 PM	#269
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Just saw footage of the Israelis towing up a 155mm Howtizer, same as I crewed when I was in the US Army. This is going to be very, very, ugly. But Israel has really no choice. And I despise Bibi and his regime.

9th October 2023, 03:01 PM	#270
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,569	So .. what SHOULD Israel do ?

9th October 2023, 03:04 PM	#271
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,299	Originally Posted by Arcade22 I'd take it for granted that your ignorant and reflexive defense of all kinds of crimes against "zionists" (which apparently means all Israelis) is driven by some sort of general error in your thinking. I'm just grateful it doesn't mean all Jews. Yet.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

9th October 2023, 03:07 PM	#272
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Originally Posted by trustbutverify I'm just grateful it doesn't mean all Jews. Yet. Thye are like Stalin..it will take some time for them to work themselves into a all Jews are oppresors of the people policy.

9th October 2023, 03:57 PM	#273
Planigale Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 6,539	Originally Posted by Arcade22 "bombing an apartment block"? For someone asking me to "quantify" anything you put forth an example that is so utterly vague as to be worthless. "bombing an apartment block" could mean just about anything. In any case, The fact that you seem incapable of realizing that torturing and murdering people (especially civilians) and filming it and broadcasting is worse than "bombing an apartment block" is telling enough by itself. Hint: it's possible to minimize actual loss of life and limb in one while in the other it's an inherent and integral part. Can you guess which is which? I'd take it for granted that your ignorant and reflexive defense of all kinds of crimes against "zionists" (which apparently means all Israelis) is driven by some sort of general error in your thinking. How many Palestinian children does Israel hold in prison under administrative detention? That means detained without a warrant, without right to a lawyer, without knowing the reason for detention, without trial, without limit? International law is clear civilians in occupied territories should not be subject to Military courts by the occupying power. Yet this is what hundreds of palestinian children some as young as twelve are subject to. Often to pressurise parents into collaboration with the occupying power. I give a reference to settler violence against Palestinians including murder that IDF occupying forces take no action about. https://www.btselem.org/topic/settler_violence

9th October 2023, 04:01 PM	#274
Planigale Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 6,539	Originally Posted by dudalb Just saw footage of the Israelis towing up a 155mm Howtizer, same as I crewed when I was in the US Army. This is going to be very, very, ugly. But Israel has really no choice. And I despise Bibi and his regime. Actually the Israeli government does have a choice, commit war crimes or not. Because Hammas are criminal does not mean the IDF have to be ordered to commit war crimes.

9th October 2023, 04:09 PM	#275
Planigale Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 6,539	Originally Posted by dudalb HAMAS is now opening threatning to execute hostages. My own attitude is simple: HAMAS is no better then the Nazis, and should be treated as such. I would have no more compunction about shooting a HAMAS "Freedom Fighter" then I would a mad dog. Yet the 'Allies' thought it was important that Nazis weren't just shot, but were subject to a judicial process. That an international standard of behaviour even in war was established, that included such principles as ethnic cleansing of indigenous people from occupied territories would constitute a war crime. One crime does not justify another; that the Israel state has been subjecting the Palestinians to war crimes for years does not justify Palestinian resistance movements committing crimes.