NZ Politics, the Luxon Era

The Atheist · 15th October 2023, 04:45 PM

NZ has a new Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon.

A very conservative evangelical, he has taken great pains to paint himself as a man of all people, so I await his actual policies with interest.

psionl0 · 15th October 2023, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

NZ has a new Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon.

A very conservative evangelical, he has taken great pains to paint himself as a man of all people, so I await his actual policies with interest.

It appears that the final results are as follows:

Code:

National Party   878,288   38.95   45    5   50
Labour Party     606,663   26.90   17   17   34
Green Party      242,845   10.77    3   11   14
ACT New Zealand  202,664    8.98    2    9   11
New Zealand F..  145,649    6.46    -    8    8
Te Pāti Māori     58,949    2.61    4    -    4

https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/

Even with the support of NZ first, Luxon only has 58 out of 121 seats. Where will his other support come from? These other parties don't appear to be all that conservative.

Samson · 15th October 2023, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It appears that the final results are as follows:

Code:

National Party   878,288   38.95   45    5   50
Labour Party     606,663   26.90   17   17   34
Green Party      242,845   10.77    3   11   14
ACT New Zealand  202,664    8.98    2    9   11
New Zealand F..  145,649    6.46    -    8    8
Te Pāti Māori     58,949    2.61    4    -    4

https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/

Even with the support of NZ first, Luxon only has 58 out of 121 seats. Where will his other support come from? These other parties don't appear to be all that conservative.

11 seats from ACT make up the numbers.
NZF will be needed as special votes are fewer for national, their people are stable and tend to be on the role.

psionl0 · 15th October 2023, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Samson

11 seats from ACT make up the numbers.
NZF will be needed as special votes are fewer for national, their people are stable and tend to be on the role.

Does Luxon intend to form a coalition with ACT or just run a minority government with the support of ACT/NZF?

smartcooky · 15th October 2023, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Does Luxon intend to form a coalition with ACT or just run a minority government with the support of ACT/NZF?

Since ACT are further right than the Nats, that is almost certain. He won't go into coalition with TPM or Greens!

smartcooky · 15th October 2023, 07:58 PM

If all those "freedumb" voters who wasted their votes on "New Zealand Loyal", "Freedoms New Zealand" and all the other fringe conspiracy theorist nutjob parties think things will get better now that Labour is out, I'm afraid you're in for a big disappointment. Luxon and his Nats talk a big game, but ultimately they do not give a fat rat's arse about the poor. Expect tax cuts for the rich, and for middle and low income earners to pay for them.

I pity anyone in this country living on the margins - those who can barely survive from payday-to-payday... or struggle to put food in the mouths of their kids. This will include retirees, and those on any kind of benefit.
The outlook for them is pretty grim for at least the next three years.

Norman Alexander · 15th October 2023, 10:02 PM

Good luck, Inzid!

We'll still come visit, though.

psionl0 · 16th October 2023, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Originally Posted by psionl0

Does Luxon intend to form a coalition with ACT or just run a minority government with the support of ACT/NZF?

Since ACT are further right than the Nats, that is almost certain. He won't go into coalition with TPM or Greens!

psionl0: "A or B"?
smartcooky: "Yes".

Thanks for your help.

The Atheist · 16th October 2023, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Even with the support of NZ first, Luxon only has 58 out of 121 seats. Where will his other support come from? These other parties don't appear to be all that conservative.

Being on t'other side of the ditch I'll forgive you not knowing of ACT & National's close relationship that now goes back over 20 years. National has been so far up ACT's backside they gifted them the Epsom electorate for several elections to ensure they got into Parliament. ACT is the furthest right any political party with parliamentary representation has ever been in this country.

As to the results being final, they aren't. There are still 20% of votes to be counted, and for some peculiar reason they're not reported at all until 3 November.

The Atheist · 16th October 2023, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Luxon and his Nats talk a big game, but ultimately they do not give a fat rat's arse about the poor. Expect tax cuts for the rich, and for middle and low income earners to pay for them.

I pity anyone in this country living on the margins - those who can barely survive from payday-to-payday... or struggle to put food in the mouths of their kids. This will include retirees, and those on any kind of benefit.
The outlook for them is pretty grim for at least the next three years.

There's going to be some serious humour, though.

I hear the 100-day pledge includes banning gang patches. Lucky he's christian and doesn't listen to science: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...harm-reduction

psionl0 · 16th October 2023, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Being on t'other side of the ditch I'll forgive you not knowing of ACT & National's close relationship that now goes back over 20 years. National has been so far up ACT's backside they gifted them the Epsom electorate for several elections to ensure they got into Parliament. ACT is the furthest right any political party with parliamentary representation has ever been in this country.

It's a simple question: a National/ACT coalition or a National minority government with ACT support?

Why won't anybody answer?

Samson · 16th October 2023, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It's a simple question: a National/ACT coalition or a National minority government with ACT support?

Why won't anybody answer?

The government is National/Act/New Zealand First.

psionl0 · 16th October 2023, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

The government is National/Act/New Zealand First.

You can't say "coalition" or not then you are still sidestepping the question.

smartcooky · 16th October 2023, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It's a simple question: a National/ACT coalition or a National minority government with ACT support?

Why won't anybody answer?

Because the difference is moot. They are effectively the same thing under NZ Electoral Law.

pzkpfw · 16th October 2023, 12:39 PM

One of the talking heads in the election coverage claimed that the apparent shift of a few % from Act to NZF in the last few weeks was due to Seymour saying in an interview that ACT might support National on an issue by issue basis rather than forming a general coalition agreement.

So there does seem some scope for exactly how a coalition would work.

dudalb · 16th October 2023, 12:46 PM

I think in most coutries, voters eventually decide that a party has simply been in to long and a change be healthy.
And No party has any right to expect an eternal majority in Parliament.

ZirconBlue · 16th October 2023, 01:27 PM

"Luxon" sounds like a corporation run by the villain in a movie.

dudalb · 16th October 2023, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

"Luxon" sounds like a corporation run by the villain in a movie.

Sounded like a new brand of Cosmetics to me.

smartcooky · 16th October 2023, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

"Luxon" sounds like a corporation run by the villain in a movie.

Lux Luther!!

novaphile · 16th October 2023, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Lux Luther!!

Lux Corp.

The Atheist · 16th October 2023, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It's a simple question: a National/ACT coalition or a National minority government with ACT support?

Why won't anybody answer?

Mea culpa, I thought what I said was so blindingly obvious it didn't require further detail.

For the record, and for David Seymour's votes, there will be a formal coalition agreement between ACT & National. Details of that are not made public.

If Winston is required, no doubt he'll have a written agreement as well.

As Smartcooky said, it's merely semantics. A formal agreement isn't necessary.

psionl0 · 16th October 2023, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Because the difference is moot. They are effectively the same thing under NZ Electoral Law.

Not quite. In a coalition government, some ministers will be from one party and the rest of the ministers from the other party.

If all of the ministers come from just one party then, even if there is a formal agreement, we have a minority government governing with the support of the other party.

arthwollipot · 16th October 2023, 05:45 PM

Luxifer

smartcooky · 16th October 2023, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Luxifer

... Oooh, I like that.

Given his Christian Evangelical background, he would hate it!

The Atheist · 16th October 2023, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Not quite. In a coalition government, some ministers will be from one party and the rest of the ministers from the other party.

That will definitely be the case. Seymour is a certainty for Deputy PM, and they will probably get 2 more Cabinet posts and maybe a couple of Ministers outside Cabinet as well. Other than Finance, all positions are yet to be decided.

If they need Winston it will cost them exactly two things - and agreement not to increase the age entitlement for superannuation, and Winston taking back over as Minister for Racing.

smartcooky · 17th October 2023, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Not quite. In a coalition government, some ministers will be from one party and the rest of the ministers from the other party.

If all of the ministers come from just one party then, even if there is a formal agreement, we have a minority government governing with the support of the other party.

Its a distinction without a difference for the everyday New Zealander.

Coalition agreement: The leaders of the two coalition parties take the prime minister and deputy roles, and few of the smaller partner's MPs get portfolios in Cabinet

Confidence and Supply agreement: The leaders of the major party get the Prime Minister and deputy roles. No MPs from the minor party get Cabinet positions. One or two might get minor roles as minsters outside of Cabinet for some important issue.

For the average Kiwi, the above is classified under the heading "don't give a fat rat's arse" In both cases, the country is governed by right wing under their philosophy of making the rich richer at the expense of the rest.

psionl0 · 17th October 2023, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

That will definitely be the case. Seymour is a certainty for Deputy PM, and they will probably get 2 more Cabinet posts and maybe a couple of Ministers outside Cabinet as well. Other than Finance, all positions are yet to be decided.

If they need Winston it will cost them exactly two things - and agreement not to increase the age entitlement for superannuation, and Winston taking back over as Minister for Racing.

Now I am caught up.

psionl0 · 17th October 2023, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Its a distinction without a difference for the everyday New Zealander.

Coalition agreement: The leaders of the two coalition parties take the prime minister and deputy roles, and few of the smaller partner's MPs get portfolios in Cabinet

Confidence and Supply agreement: The leaders of the major party get the Prime Minister and deputy roles. No MPs from the minor party get Cabinet positions. One or two might get minor roles as minsters outside of Cabinet for some important issue.

For the average Kiwi, the above is classified under the heading "don't give a fat rat's arse" In both cases, the country is governed by right wing under their philosophy of making the rich richer at the expense of the rest.

And yet you spent 3 posts refusing to answer the question when you could have achieved the same result with 0 posts. Evidently you DO "give a fat rat's arse".

smartcooky · 17th October 2023, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

And yet you spent 3 posts refusing to answer the question when you could have achieved the same result with 0 posts. Evidently you DO "give a fat rat's arse".

Yeah, whatever mate!

novaphile · 18th October 2023, 05:24 PM

Note that here in sunny South Australia, we had a Minister, from another party, without there being a coalition in place.

Ideally, a cabinet would be staffed by the best people the Prime Minister can find from all the elected members, but in practice, party politics (where parties place themselves above representing the public and doing the best for the country as a whole) prevent this from happening.

Minority governments are interesting, but inherently unstable, so it will be interesting to see how New Zealand goes...

Roger Ramjets · 18th October 2023, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Luxifer

Now, now, no need to invent nasty nicknames. He doesn't like it, so out of respect I will always use his full name, Listopher Cruxon.

The Atheist · 18th October 2023, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by novaphile

Minority governments are interesting, but inherently unstable, so it will be interesting to see how New Zealand goes...

Every government since the introduction of MMP in 1993, with the exception of the recently-departed Labour government's second term, has been a minority leadership.

None of them have shown any signs of instability, and I doubt this one will be different.

psionl0 · 19th October 2023, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by novaphile

Minority governments are interesting, but inherently unstable

If they have a formal support agreement from the other party then even if the other party doesn't have any ministers, a minority government can be as stable as a coalition.

The Atheist · 3rd November 2023, 02:07 AM

Hmm, might be a very short era for this particular government in waiting.

After special vote counts, National has lost two sets and together with ACT, control 59 seats in the house. Due to Te Paati Maori picking up another seat, Parliament will consist of 122 seats this term, and NZ First has 8, so Luxon & ACT cannot govern without Peters and NZ First.

Today, NZ First isn't picking up ACT leader David Seymour's calls.

Winston and Seymour share a mutual loathing and the thought of the pair of them in caucus together is hilarious. Peters will try to sabotage ACT at every turn, and holds exactly the right cards to temper some of Luxon's more idiotic ideas as well.

It might be an interesting pre-xmas Parliament.

smartcooky · 4th November 2023, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Hmm, might be a very short era for this particular government in waiting.

After special vote counts, National has lost two sets and together with ACT, control 59 seats in the house. Due to Te Paati Maori picking up another seat, Parliament will consist of 122 seats this term, and NZ First has 8, so Luxon & ACT cannot govern without Peters and NZ First.

Today, NZ First isn't picking up ACT leader David Seymour's calls.

Winston and Seymour share a mutual loathing and the thought of the pair of them in caucus together is hilarious. Peters will try to sabotage ACT at every turn, and holds exactly the right cards to temper some of Luxon's more idiotic ideas as well.

It might be an interesting pre-xmas Parliament.

I can see a possibility that Winston will stay out of coalition, will agree on matters of confidence & supply only, and vote against every ACT policy initiative.

This would be sure to piss off that little pissant Seymour.

The Atheist · 4th November 2023, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I can see a possibility that Winston will stay out of coalition, will agree on matters of confidence & supply only, and vote against every ACT policy initiative.

This would be sure to piss off that little pissant Seymour.

I think the carrot of Deputy PM and/or Foreign affairs will mean a coalition agreement is a certainty. And Winnie has all the cards - Seymour will suck Luxon's whatever he's asked to because they only exist thanks to National, so Winston can draw the line wherever he feels like. He will also know that whoever forced another election would have an enormous backlash, so Luxon is now Winston's pawn.

A mate of mine is Winston's neighbour up north and the laughing hasn't stopped for over 24 hours.

smartcooky · 4th November 2023, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I think the carrot of Deputy PM and/or Foreign affairs will mean a coalition agreement is a certainty. And Winnie has all the cards - Seymour will suck Luxon's whatever he's asked to because they only exist thanks to National, so Winston can draw the line wherever he feels like. He will also know that whoever forced another election would have an enormous backlash, so Luxon is now Winston's pawn.

A mate of mine is Winston's neighbour up north and the laughing hasn't stopped for over 24 hours.

Here's the thing though... Winston is now kingmaker. Act and Nazional together only have 59 seats in a 122 seat Parliament. Winston, The Greens TMP and Labour have 63 between them - he could threaten to do a deal, involving all sorts of concessions with any or all of them, resulting in a Labour/NZF led coalition government with the Greens and TPM.

Now sure, its not at all likely to happen, but Winston despises David Seymour enough that he might threaten to do this, if for no other reason than to neuter him. Yes, it might be political suicide, but Peters will be 79 in April next year... do you think he really cares about his longer term political future?

The Atheist · 5th November 2023, 02:47 AM

I'm sure he doesn't give a damn, but Green and Te Paati Maori have ruled out working with Winston.

Still, it's politics and anything can happen, but I'm sure Luxon will do any deal that gets him the Treasury benches.

Samson · 5th November 2023, 02:01 PM

Chloe Swarbrick calls for the symbolic extermination of Jews in Israel.

https://twitter.com/ElliotIkilei/sta...s1hZPDBCg&s=19

The Atheist · 5th November 2023, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Samson

Chloe Swarbrick calls for the symbolic extermination of Jews in Israel.

In your world, that's probably how it seems. Thank christ only the far right believes that kind of arrant nonsense.

I'm not Swarbrick fan, but making stuff up is pathetic. Freedom isn't genocide.

15th October 2023, 04:45 PM	#1
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 34,492	NZ Politics, the Luxon Era NZ has a new Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon. A very conservative evangelical, he has taken great pains to paint himself as a man of all people, so I await his actual policies with interest.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

15th October 2023, 05:13 PM	#2
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by The Atheist NZ has a new Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon. A very conservative evangelical, he has taken great pains to paint himself as a man of all people, so I await his actual policies with interest. It appears that the final results are as follows: Code: National Party 878,288 38.95 45 5 50 Labour Party 606,663 26.90 17 17 34 Green Party 242,845 10.77 3 11 14 ACT New Zealand 202,664 8.98 2 9 11 New Zealand F.. 145,649 6.46 - 8 8 Te Pāti Māori 58,949 2.61 4 - 4 https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/ Even with the support of NZ first, Luxon only has 58 out of 121 seats. Where will his other support come from? These other parties don't appear to be all that conservative.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

15th October 2023, 06:58 PM	#3
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 11,699	Originally Posted by psionl0 It appears that the final results are as follows: Code: National Party 878,288 38.95 45 5 50 Labour Party 606,663 26.90 17 17 34 Green Party 242,845 10.77 3 11 14 ACT New Zealand 202,664 8.98 2 9 11 New Zealand F.. 145,649 6.46 - 8 8 Te Pāti Māori 58,949 2.61 4 - 4 https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/ Even with the support of NZ first, Luxon only has 58 out of 121 seats. Where will his other support come from? These other parties don't appear to be all that conservative. 11 seats from ACT make up the numbers. NZF will be needed as special votes are fewer for national, their people are stable and tend to be on the role.
	__________________ Jeremy Bamber never hurt a fly, Bambi slaughtered her parents and kids

15th October 2023, 07:17 PM	#4
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by Samson 11 seats from ACT make up the numbers. NZF will be needed as special votes are fewer for national, their people are stable and tend to be on the role. Does Luxon intend to form a coalition with ACT or just run a minority government with the support of ACT/NZF?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

15th October 2023, 07:43 PM	#5
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by psionl0 Does Luxon intend to form a coalition with ACT or just run a minority government with the support of ACT/NZF? Since ACT are further right than the Nats, that is almost certain. He won't go into coalition with TPM or Greens!
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!

15th October 2023, 07:58 PM	#6
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	If all those "freedumb" voters who wasted their votes on "New Zealand Loyal", "Freedoms New Zealand" and all the other fringe conspiracy theorist nutjob parties think things will get better now that Labour is out, I'm afraid you're in for a big disappointment. Luxon and his Nats talk a big game, but ultimately they do not give a fat rat's arse about the poor. Expect tax cuts for the rich, and for middle and low income earners to pay for them. I pity anyone in this country living on the margins - those who can barely survive from payday-to-payday... or struggle to put food in the mouths of their kids. This will include retirees, and those on any kind of benefit. The outlook for them is pretty grim for at least the next three years.
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! Last edited by smartcooky; 15th October 2023 at 08:00 PM.

15th October 2023, 10:02 PM	#7
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 16,171	Good luck, Inzid! We'll still come visit, though.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

16th October 2023, 01:50 AM	#8
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by smartcooky Originally Posted by psionl0 Does Luxon intend to form a coalition with ACT or just run a minority government with the support of ACT/NZF? Since ACT are further right than the Nats, that is almost certain. He won't go into coalition with TPM or Greens! psionl0: "A or B"? smartcooky: "Yes". Thanks for your help.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th October 2023, 02:18 AM	#9
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 34,492	Originally Posted by psionl0 Even with the support of NZ first, Luxon only has 58 out of 121 seats. Where will his other support come from? These other parties don't appear to be all that conservative. Being on t'other side of the ditch I'll forgive you not knowing of ACT & National's close relationship that now goes back over 20 years. National has been so far up ACT's backside they gifted them the Epsom electorate for several elections to ensure they got into Parliament. ACT is the furthest right any political party with parliamentary representation has ever been in this country. As to the results being final, they aren't. There are still 20% of votes to be counted, and for some peculiar reason they're not reported at all until 3 November.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

16th October 2023, 02:23 AM	#10
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 34,492	Originally Posted by smartcooky Luxon and his Nats talk a big game, but ultimately they do not give a fat rat's arse about the poor. Expect tax cuts for the rich, and for middle and low income earners to pay for them. I pity anyone in this country living on the margins - those who can barely survive from payday-to-payday... or struggle to put food in the mouths of their kids. This will include retirees, and those on any kind of benefit. The outlook for them is pretty grim for at least the next three years. There's going to be some serious humour, though. I hear the 100-day pledge includes banning gang patches. Lucky he's christian and doesn't listen to science: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...harm-reduction
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

16th October 2023, 03:39 AM	#11
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by The Atheist Being on t'other side of the ditch I'll forgive you not knowing of ACT & National's close relationship that now goes back over 20 years. National has been so far up ACT's backside they gifted them the Epsom electorate for several elections to ensure they got into Parliament. ACT is the furthest right any political party with parliamentary representation has ever been in this country. It's a simple question: a National/ACT coalition or a National minority government with ACT support? Why won't anybody answer?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th October 2023, 04:01 AM	#12
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 11,699	Originally Posted by psionl0 It's a simple question: a National/ACT coalition or a National minority government with ACT support? Why won't anybody answer? The government is National/Act/New Zealand First.
	__________________ Jeremy Bamber never hurt a fly, Bambi slaughtered her parents and kids

16th October 2023, 07:41 AM	#13
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by Samson The government is National/Act/New Zealand First. You can't say "coalition" or not then you are still sidestepping the question.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th October 2023, 10:38 AM	#14
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by psionl0 It's a simple question: a National/ACT coalition or a National minority government with ACT support? Why won't anybody answer? Because the difference is moot. They are effectively the same thing under NZ Electoral Law.
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! Last edited by smartcooky; 16th October 2023 at 10:41 AM.

16th October 2023, 12:39 PM	#15
pzkpfw Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 239	One of the talking heads in the election coverage claimed that the apparent shift of a few % from Act to NZF in the last few weeks was due to Seymour saying in an interview that ACT might support National on an issue by issue basis rather than forming a general coalition agreement. So there does seem some scope for exactly how a coalition would work.
pzkpfw Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 239

16th October 2023, 12:46 PM	#16
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	I think in most coutries, voters eventually decide that a party has simply been in to long and a change be healthy. And No party has any right to expect an eternal majority in Parliament.

16th October 2023, 01:27 PM	#17
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lexington, KY, USA, Earth Posts: 15,055	"Luxon" sounds like a corporation run by the villain in a movie.
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

16th October 2023, 02:30 PM	#18
dudalb Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 60,126	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue "Luxon" sounds like a corporation run by the villain in a movie. Sounded like a new brand of Cosmetics to me.

16th October 2023, 02:49 PM	#19
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue "Luxon" sounds like a corporation run by the villain in a movie. Lux Luther!!
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!

16th October 2023, 02:58 PM	#20
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 6,036	Originally Posted by smartcooky Lux Luther!! Lux Corp.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

16th October 2023, 03:39 PM	#21
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 34,492	Originally Posted by psionl0 It's a simple question: a National/ACT coalition or a National minority government with ACT support? Why won't anybody answer? Mea culpa, I thought what I said was so blindingly obvious it didn't require further detail. For the record, and for David Seymour's votes, there will be a formal coalition agreement between ACT & National. Details of that are not made public. If Winston is required, no doubt he'll have a written agreement as well. As Smartcooky said, it's merely semantics. A formal agreement isn't necessary.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

16th October 2023, 05:28 PM	#22
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by smartcooky Because the difference is moot. They are effectively the same thing under NZ Electoral Law. Not quite. In a coalition government, some ministers will be from one party and the rest of the ministers from the other party. If all of the ministers come from just one party then, even if there is a formal agreement, we have a minority government governing with the support of the other party.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th October 2023, 05:45 PM	#23
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 85,474	Luxifer
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

16th October 2023, 06:23 PM	#24
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Luxifer ... Oooh, I like that. Given his Christian Evangelical background, he would hate it!
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!

16th October 2023, 07:53 PM	#25
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 34,492	Originally Posted by psionl0 Not quite. In a coalition government, some ministers will be from one party and the rest of the ministers from the other party. That will definitely be the case. Seymour is a certainty for Deputy PM, and they will probably get 2 more Cabinet posts and maybe a couple of Ministers outside Cabinet as well. Other than Finance, all positions are yet to be decided. If they need Winston it will cost them exactly two things - and agreement not to increase the age entitlement for superannuation, and Winston taking back over as Minister for Racing.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

17th October 2023, 12:23 PM	#26
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by psionl0 Not quite. In a coalition government, some ministers will be from one party and the rest of the ministers from the other party. If all of the ministers come from just one party then, even if there is a formal agreement, we have a minority government governing with the support of the other party. Its a distinction without a difference for the everyday New Zealander. Coalition agreement: The leaders of the two coalition parties take the prime minister and deputy roles, and few of the smaller partner's MPs get portfolios in Cabinet Confidence and Supply agreement: The leaders of the major party get the Prime Minister and deputy roles. No MPs from the minor party get Cabinet positions. One or two might get minor roles as minsters outside of Cabinet for some important issue. For the average Kiwi, the above is classified under the heading "don't give a fat rat's arse" In both cases, the country is governed by right wing under their philosophy of making the rich richer at the expense of the rest.
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!

17th October 2023, 05:06 PM	#27
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by The Atheist That will definitely be the case. Seymour is a certainty for Deputy PM, and they will probably get 2 more Cabinet posts and maybe a couple of Ministers outside Cabinet as well. Other than Finance, all positions are yet to be decided. If they need Winston it will cost them exactly two things - and agreement not to increase the age entitlement for superannuation, and Winston taking back over as Minister for Racing. Now I am caught up.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

17th October 2023, 05:11 PM	#28
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by smartcooky Its a distinction without a difference for the everyday New Zealander. Coalition agreement: The leaders of the two coalition parties take the prime minister and deputy roles, and few of the smaller partner's MPs get portfolios in Cabinet Confidence and Supply agreement: The leaders of the major party get the Prime Minister and deputy roles. No MPs from the minor party get Cabinet positions. One or two might get minor roles as minsters outside of Cabinet for some important issue. For the average Kiwi, the above is classified under the heading "don't give a fat rat's arse" In both cases, the country is governed by right wing under their philosophy of making the rich richer at the expense of the rest. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/vywb1...g1bpqe7l&raw=1 And yet you spent 3 posts refusing to answer the question when you could have achieved the same result with 0 posts. Evidently you DO "give a fat rat's arse".
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

17th October 2023, 10:40 PM	#29
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by psionl0 And yet you spent 3 posts refusing to answer the question when you could have achieved the same result with 0 posts. Evidently you DO "give a fat rat's arse". Yeah, whatever mate!
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!

18th October 2023, 05:24 PM	#30
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 6,036	Note that here in sunny South Australia, we had a Minister, from another party, without there being a coalition in place. Ideally, a cabinet would be staffed by the best people the Prime Minister can find from all the elected members, but in practice, party politics (where parties place themselves above representing the public and doing the best for the country as a whole) prevent this from happening. Minority governments are interesting, but inherently unstable, so it will be interesting to see how New Zealand goes...
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

18th October 2023, 08:26 PM	#31
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,827	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Luxifer Now, now, no need to invent nasty nicknames. He doesn't like it, so out of respect I will always use his full name, Listopher Cruxon.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

18th October 2023, 08:43 PM	#32
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 34,492	Originally Posted by novaphile Minority governments are interesting, but inherently unstable, so it will be interesting to see how New Zealand goes... Every government since the introduction of MMP in 1993, with the exception of the recently-departed Labour government's second term, has been a minority leadership. None of them have shown any signs of instability, and I doubt this one will be different.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

19th October 2023, 02:52 AM	#33
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,749	Originally Posted by novaphile Minority governments are interesting, but inherently unstable If they have a formal support agreement from the other party then even if the other party doesn't have any ministers, a minority government can be as stable as a coalition.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

3rd November 2023, 02:07 AM	#34
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 34,492	Hmm, might be a very short era for this particular government in waiting. After special vote counts, National has lost two sets and together with ACT, control 59 seats in the house. Due to Te Paati Maori picking up another seat, Parliament will consist of 122 seats this term, and NZ First has 8, so Luxon & ACT cannot govern without Peters and NZ First. Today, NZ First isn't picking up ACT leader David Seymour's calls. Winston and Seymour share a mutual loathing and the thought of the pair of them in caucus together is hilarious. Peters will try to sabotage ACT at every turn, and holds exactly the right cards to temper some of Luxon's more idiotic ideas as well. It might be an interesting pre-xmas Parliament.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

4th November 2023, 11:25 AM	#35
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,829	Originally Posted by The Atheist Hmm, might be a very short era for this particular government in waiting. After special vote counts, National has lost two sets and together with ACT, control 59 seats in the house. Due to Te Paati Maori picking up another seat, Parliament will consist of 122 seats this term, and NZ First has 8, so Luxon & ACT cannot govern without Peters and NZ First. Today, NZ First isn't picking up ACT leader David Seymour's calls. Winston and Seymour share a mutual loathing and the thought of the pair of them in caucus together is hilarious. Peters will try to sabotage ACT at every turn, and holds exactly the right cards to temper some of Luxon's more idiotic ideas as well. It might be an interesting pre-xmas Parliament. I can see a possibility that Winston will stay out of coalition, will agree on matters of confidence & supply only, and vote against every ACT policy initiative. This would be sure to piss off that little pissant Seymour.
	__________________ Those who claim that something can't be done need to stop getting in the way of those who are actually doing it! - Anonymous Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!