NZ Politics, the Luxon Era

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

In your world, that's probably how it seems. Thank christ only the far right believes that kind of arrant nonsense.

I'm not Swarbrick fan, but making stuff up is pathetic. Freedom isn't genocide.

That's why I said symbolic. Of course she knows exactly what it can be taken to mean. This is where free speech is useful, she can say what she likes in the open
Others can respond in the open.
People are calling it hate speech on kiwiblog for example. Kiri Allan and Ardern would have her arrested with the laws they proposed.
No doubt you will disagree, but it is certainly arguable.

[arthwollipot]

I confess to experiencing a cognitive jerk every time I see ACT referenced in this thread.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Samson

... kiwiblog ...

Speaking of hyperbole...

Nobody with any kind of independent thought would give a flying **** what David Farrar thinks.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Speaking of hyperbole...

Nobody with any kind of independent thought would give a flying **** what David Farrar thinks.

Actually was on X the comment
Here is what a local Jew thinks,

https://youtu.be/pAwS-CQ4xWI?si=1gEsawKNYixBRpdW

Juliet Moses

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I confess to experiencing a cognitive jerk every time I see ACT referenced in this thread.

Well you're half right. Cognitive is wrong, but yeah, the term "jerk" is strongly associated with ACT party members, voters and supporters.

[The Atheist]

Speaking of ACT, the one policy they have which Winston might support is a referendum on the ToW.

I hope Luxon isn't stupid enough to buy into that idea, because there will be trouble that makes the Parliament grounds occupation look like a Sunday School picnic.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Speaking of ACT, the one policy they have which Winston might support is a referendum on the ToW.

I hope Luxon isn't stupid enough to buy into that idea, because there will be trouble that makes the Parliament grounds occupation look like a Sunday School picnic.

Wouldn't that be part of the plan, provoke a response which shows how out of control natives (and their woke white enablers) are ?

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Speaking of ACT, the one policy they have which Winston might support is a referendum on the ToW.

I hope Luxon isn't stupid enough to buy into that idea, because there will be trouble that makes the Parliament grounds occupation look like a Sunday School picnic.

For the enlightenment of those of us who reside on the wrong side of the Tasman, could you expand on that acronym?

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by psionl0

For the enlightenment of those of us who reside on the wrong side of the Tasman, could you expand on that acronym?

Treaty of Waitangi

It's our so-called founding document, but has been nothing but a source of ammunition for the grievance industry for many years.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Treaty of Waitangi

It's our so-called founding document, but has been nothing but a source of ammunition for the grievance industry for many years.

What sort of question could be put in a referendum? Rescind the treaty?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by The Don

Wouldn't that be part of the plan, provoke a response which shows how out of control natives (and their woke white enablers) are ?

Possibly, but I don't think even David Seymour is that naive. I guarantee not a single cop thinks it's a good idea - they struggle to contain the gangs, let alone 2/3 of all Maori, which is about the number who would be very upset.

Maori leadership is quite clear that they won't allow it, and the Maori electorate spoke very clearly by electing Te Paati Maori to represent them.

Originally Posted by psionl0

What sort of question could be put in a referendum? Rescind the treaty?

Seymour has danced around the exact wording he wants, only saying he wants all NZers to be treated equally. Given the ToW guarantees Maori certain rights not available to others, the end result is exactly that. The Treaty will still exist as a founding document, but have no position in law.

To me, it's exactly the same as South Korea ripping up the ceasefire agreement with NK, and would have fairly similar results, albeit without nukes.

[The Atheist]

Two former Prime Ministers - one from either side of the House, have blasted the idea of a referendum. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...aty-referendum

Former National PM, Jim Bolger says it's "bloody stupid" and he's not wrong.

I expect the question will quietly die down once someone explains to Seymour that he needs to leave the realpolitik to the grown ups.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Seymour has danced around the exact wording he wants, only saying he wants all NZers to be treated equally. Given the ToW guarantees Maori certain rights not available to others, the end result is exactly that. The Treaty will still exist as a founding document, but have no position in law.

What 'rights' would those be?

[Samson]

The real issue is giving Maori veto power on everything. Act and NZF are torpedoing that.

Eg Claire Trevett says in the Herald:

There is also common ground on the Treaty and co-governance (Peters is opposed to Seymour’s wish for a referendum on the Treaty principles but does want changes to the inclusion of the Treaty principles in laws, its application to resource management laws and is opposed to the Marine and Coastal Area Act.)

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

What 'rights' would those be?

For Zarpuon's sake, you say you live in NZ.

Have you never heard of the Foreshore and Seabed Act?

Are you unaware of the billions of dollars given to Iwi in compensation?

Have you ever tried to pick up a piece of pounamu? Are you aware that pakeha have been sent to jail for taking it?

Are you unaware that New Zealand has Maori seats in Parliament?

Have you ever eaten kereru?

Maybe send a letter to Te Puna Kokiri and find out.

[The Atheist]

And so it begins...

Ministries cutting staff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...new-government

On the face of it, a bloody good idea, although a much better idea would be to make them more efficient first, then cut the dead wood. MBIE has been dreadfully incompetent for years and the appalling mess of the ERA is disadvantaging workers while showing employers they can act with impunity, safe in the knowledge that few employees will wait 2 years to be heard.

David Seymour will have his smug face on all day.

[pzkpfw]

When I read that this morning I was wondering if a side effect of putting people out of work will be to lower inflation as there's less spending money being spent.

[The Atheist]

No chance, anyone with half a brain - and admittedly they're not common in public service - will be snapped up a labour market that is still stretched to breaking point. The numbers involved aren't enough to shift the inflation needle anyway.

As usual for right-side politics, they haven't thought of what will happen with staff shortages that will now be carried by ministries.

IRD, MBIE and MSD are all months behind where they should be, and cutting staff will make it worse. A smart government would invest in more people for IRD and chase up the billions they lose to fraud every year.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

For Zarpuon's sake, you say you live in NZ.

Have you never heard of the Foreshore and Seabed Act?

Foreshore and Seabed Act 2004

Quote:

The Foreshore and Seabed Act 2004 was an Act of Parliament in New Zealand which overruled the 2003 decision of the Court of Appeal in Ngati Apa v Attorney-General. Its passage arose out of, and further fueled, the New Zealand foreshore and seabed controversy. The act was repealed and replaced by the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act in 2011.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Are you unaware of the billions of dollars given to Iwi in compensation?

Iwi

Quote:

Iwi (Māori pronunciation: [ˈiwi]) are the largest social units in New Zealand Māori society. In Māori iwi roughly means "people" or "nation", and is often translated as "tribe", or "a confederation of tribes"...

the 1997 Treaty of Waitangi settlement between the New Zealand Government and Ngāi Tahu, compensated that iwi for various losses of the rights guaranteed under the Treaty of Waitangi of 1840.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Have you ever tried to pick up a piece of pounamu?

About Pounamu

Quote:

Renowned for its beauty and strength, the rare stone is highly valued by both Māori and greater New Zealand. While generically known as ‘greenstone’ Pounamu refers to the particular types of hard nephrite jade, bowentine or serpertine found in southern New Zealand....

Ngāi Tahu are the principal Māori iwi (tribe) of southern New Zealand, the kaitiaki (guardians) of greenstone and the only source of authentic Pounamu. In 1997 the New Zealand government returned the rights of Pounamu ownership to Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu, the iwi’s elected tribal council.

Pounamu

Quote:

HOW CAN I COLLECT POUNAMU?
Public Fossicking
Ng i Tahu recognises that fossicking for small amounts of pounamu is an important cultural activitiy for all New Zealanders.

Public fossicking for pounamu is allowed on the beaches of Te Tai o Poutini (the West Coast of the South Island) and is limited to what an individual can carry on their person or backpack within a 24 hour period

BTW in case you didn't know, the removal of any stones by anybody from public rivers and beaches is illegal unless specifically permitted - though you are unlikely to be prosecuted for putting a few pebbles in your pocket. Similar laws abound in other countries too.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Are you unaware that New Zealand has Maori seats in Parliament?

Māori electorates

Quote:

Māori electorates, colloquially known as the Māori seats (Māori: Ngā tūru Māori), are a special category of electorate that give reserved positions to representatives of Māori in the New Zealand Parliament. Every area in New Zealand is covered by both a general and a Māori electorate; as of 2020, there are seven Māori electorates. Since 1967, candidates in Māori electorates have not needed to be Māori themselves, but to register as a voter in the Māori electorates people need to declare that they are of Māori descent...

The establishment of Māori electorates came about in 1867 during the term of the 4th Parliament with the Maori Representation Act, drafted by Napier member of parliament Donald McLean. Parliament passed the act after lengthy debate, and during a period of warfare between the government and some North Island Māori hapū and was seen as a way to reduce conflict between cultures. Its primary aim was to enfranchise Maori who were indirectly excluded from parliament by the land ownership requirement. To vote, a person had to be male, a subject of the monarch, have title to land of at least 25 pounds, and not be in prison. Very few Maori qualified because of the property qualification - the land they owned was held in common and not by Crown grant: native title was not acceptable.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Have you ever eaten kereru?

No. Why would I want to eat a beautiful native bird? Especially with all those bones and feathers.

Kererū

Quote:

Considered a taonga (cultural treasure) to the Māori people, the kererū was historically a major food source in Māori culture. However, due to the previous decline in its population, hunting is illegal. Customary use of kererū is restricted to the use of feathers and bones obtained from dead birds collected by DOC.

Your examples of rights that Maori have but other New Zealanders don't are weak. Don't bother with any more, we get the picture. You don't believe the Crown should meet their contractual obligations regarding the Treaty of Waitangi, nor do you believe Maori should have had representation in parliament, or that any Maori tribe be allowed to assert their property rights. But you're not racist, oh no...

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And so it begins...

Ministries cutting staff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...new-government

On the face of it, a bloody good idea,

Surely you know how "staff cuts" work in government. Front line services get cut but more cinchy back office jobs are created for the party's cronies.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

You don't believe the Crown should meet their contractual obligations regarding the Treaty of Waitangi, nor do you believe Maori should have had representation in parliament, or that any Maori tribe be allowed to assert their property rights. But you're not racist, oh no...

Breathtakingly ignorant strawman.

You asked what the differences were, I offered no opinion on whether I agreed with them or not. I note that didn't stop you immediately deciding how I feel and that I'm racist.

Your bias is on display for all. Well played.

[Samson]

Racist.
A term that is suffering from occupational over use syndrome.

[Samson]

Chris Trotter has evolved into a really top class thinker and writer:

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-po...ut-test-writes

One of the reader comments here, though emigrants self select from a more ambitious set:

Funnily enough, there are 170,000 Maori living in Australia (20% of the total Maori population), most of them without access to welfare. Yet there they are, clearly successful and thriving in a white man's land. How is it that the "effects of colonisation" only impact those still living in NZ and not those Maori living in Australia, the UK, USA, or Singapore (as many of my Maori friends are)?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Samson

Funnily enough, there are 170,000 Maori living in Australia (20% of the total Maori population), most of them without access to welfare. Yet there they are, clearly successful and thriving in a white man's land. How is it that the "effects of colonisation" only impact those still living in NZ and not those Maori living in Australia, the UK, USA, or Singapore (as many of my Maori friends are)?

That point has been made before and it's 100% correct.

[The Atheist]

This is hilarious - it's blindingly obvious who's running the coalition talks as Winnie fails to turn up for a meeting in Wellington, forcing both Luxon and Seymour to come grovelling to Peters in Auckland.

It's going to be a fun three years!

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...26de90891&ei=8

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Samson

Funnily enough, there are 170,000 Maori living in Australia (20% of the total Maori population), most of them without access to welfare. Yet there they are, clearly successful and thriving in a white man's land. How is it that the "effects of colonisation" only impact those still living in NZ and not those Maori living in Australia, the UK, USA, or Singapore (as many of my Maori friends are)?

I would explain it to you but what's point? Your 'some of my best friends are black' defense only confirms your intractable bigotry.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

I would explain it to you but what's point?

No, please do explain it.

And if you can explain that anomaly, you should also be able to explain why Pasifika people, who occupy an even lower socio-economic rung than Maori - and who don't have billions of dollars paid to them, or specific healthcare set up at great cost for them - feature much lower in crime, unemployment, welfare dependency and health problems than Maori.

TIA

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And if you can explain that anomaly, you should also be able to explain why Pasifika people,

Again, if you have to ask it's pointless trying to explain it to you.

But you don't want an answer from me, because you think you already know it. I will not waste my time on such bigotry.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Again, if you have to ask it's pointless trying to explain it to you.

But you don't want an answer from me, because you think you already know it. I will not waste my time on such bigotry.

Nice response, 2/2.

I translate it as "I got nothing, so I'll just drop an ad hom and leave."

Cowardly.

[Samson]

Stuff calls The Platform fringe:

Jones spoke on fringe political podcast The Platform earlier that day, saying he wanted to close the department entirely. But he told Stuff the party only wanted to seriously scale back the department and keep the Office of Treaty Settlements – responsibile for negotiating historical claims.

The Platform has more serious content in a day than Stuff in a millennium, even though Plunkett is a conspiracist and really annoying, never letting guests finish answering.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Samson

Racist.
A term that is suffering from occupational over use syndrome.

If there weren't so many racists about, it wouldn't be getting as much use.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Samson

Stuff calls The Platform fringe:

Rightly so. If they were any further right they'd be going north up the eastern side of the southern motorway.

Plunket, Laws, Devlin, Hide and the revolting scumbags of the Wright Family Foundation. They're proudly "anti-woke" so I can see the attraction for you.

Echo chamber for anti-homo/trans/socialist people who think Mike Hosking isn't Conservative enough.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Rightly so. If they were any further right they'd be going north up the eastern side of the southern motorway.

Plunket, Laws, Devlin, Hide and the revolting scumbags of the Wright Family Foundation. They're proudly "anti-woke" so I can see the attraction for you.

Echo chamber for anti-homo/trans/socialist people who think Mike Hosking isn't Conservative enough.

There are no homophobes in New Zealand except the muslims. You know that. The rest is opinion.
Ro Edge campaigns on the Platform to keep males out of female sport. If that is fringe count me fringe.
Craig Stobo is a regular with Michael Laws, but unfortunately Sean Plunket gets too much airtime with the classic covid/climate quinella.
There are others, you are falling into the ideological trap of treating completely unrelated matters as the same. But then sterilizing gay kids is ok I guess. It is fine with the prime minister to be, so what is not to like.
The Platform has a general audience that is supportive of orgasm, since that is how the audience arrived.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Samson

There are no homophobes in New Zealand except the muslims.

Absurd.

The rest of your rant belongs in the toxic thread that shall not be named.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Absurd.

The rest of your rant belongs in the toxic thread that shall not be named.

Act in haste, repent at leisure, your diabolical thread kind sir.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Samson

Act in haste, repent at leisure, your diabolical thread kind sir.

Now, you see, that's a genius sentence. I would definitely not have started that thread if I knew where it was going to go.

Meanwhile, the political situation gets more hilarious by the hour.

We will probably have a situation where Luxon ends up being the defender of Te Reo, as outlined here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...government-use

Luxon has always said he wants and "English first" approach, so name changes are pretty well locked in, but the wise heads Luxon is surely listening to - Brownlee, Key, et al, will know very well that any attempt to demote Te Reo further than that is likely to cause an enormous backlash.

While ACT and NZF voters are 100% anti-Te Reo, the wide majority of NZ embraces it and there's a reasonable chance he'll alienate some of his middle if they go too far, so I can definitely see some horse-trading going on where Luxon will give up policy to ensure Te Reo's continued prominence.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Absurd.

The rest of your rant belongs in the toxic thread that shall not be named.

Jesus christ. No homophobes except the muslims?

Samson what colour is the sky on your world?

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Now, you see, that's a genius sentence. I would definitely not have started that thread if I knew where it was going to go.

Meanwhile, the political situation gets more hilarious by the hour.

We will probably have a situation where Luxon ends up being the defender of Te Reo, as outlined here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...government-use

Luxon has always said he wants and "English first" approach, so name changes are pretty well locked in, but the wise heads Luxon is surely listening to - Brownlee, Key, et al, will know very well that any attempt to demote Te Reo further than that is likely to cause an enormous backlash.

While ACT and NZF voters are 100% anti-Te Reo, the wide majority of NZ embraces it and there's a reasonable chance he'll alienate some of his middle if they go too far, so I can definitely see some horse-trading going on where Luxon will give up policy to ensure Te Reo's continued prominence.

Te Reo is a fascinating language until the majority of words are cobbled out of English.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Samson

Te Reo is a fascinating language until the majority of words are cobbled out of English.

That's neither true nor relevant.

Obviously, Maori didn't have words for things they didn't know existed.

The same could be said of English. Remove all the French words alone and it would be difficult to hold some conversations.

[MarkCorrigan]

Hell it works both ways. The French for hotdog? "Le hotdog".