Continuation General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

it's not a war - it's an anti-terrorist action. Only one side is a State Actor.

That's really not true. Hamas is a state actor. It's got a government, it has citizens, it controls territory. It's a state actor. Refusing to recognize it as a state actor doesn't make it not a state actor.

And state actors can engage in acts of terrorism as part of war. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

Quote:

And just because your opponent commits atrocities DOES NOT give you the right to commit atrocities right back

What exactly do you mean by "atrocities"? If any military action against Hamas which results in civilian casualties is considered an atrocity, then actually yes, Israel has the right to commit atrocities.

Quote:

The very best argument you can make is from a "end justifies the means" perspective, but that would require Israel to formulate and publicize a plan for what comes after that would lead to a much better outcome for Israeli and Gazans alike.

See, that's just stupid. There's no obligation to publicize your plans. There's no obligation to give your enemy an opportunity to thwart them.

Quote:

Retaliation for its own sake IS NOT A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE !

It absolutely is. Simple game theory indicates that retaliation is actually a moral imperative. Are you not familiar with tit-for-tat strategies in iterated prisoner's dilemma games?

[webfusion]

Not only did HAMAS directly choose to start a war, but they did so with the intention of having many thousands of their own people be caught up in it, and dying. For the effect of rallying their supporters to go into the streets of cities worldwide and be an integral part of their war effort.
It was all designed to go that way. (See: David Satterfield)
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-772650

[JoeMorgue]

Again. Hamas would kill every single person in this thread. The IDF would not.

A "Palestinian State" would just be another Muslim theocracy with a ****** human rights record. Israel as a county at least has the potential to not be that.

No amount of colonial white guilt Progressive Stacking will change that.

Hamas is everything that coffee shop liberals put on huge airs about hating the American Right for times 1000%

If Hamas was a group of Christian Nationalists and absolutely everything else about the conflict was 100% the exact same, you all would hate them without all the reservations and we all know it.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

War is brutal. Innocent lives are lost and ruined. But war is what Hamas wanted. War is what Hamas chose.

(1) A state cannot have a war against the people it is already occupying and confining in concentration camps.

(2) Nope... this violence is what the SETTLER COLONIALISTS chose... had they treated their victims not in the same manner the NAZIs treated them and their parents... they might have had a more peaceable outcome... alas!!! It is a wretched fact of the miserable humanity that most of the abused become abusers themselves when they have the power

Originally Posted by Moshe Dayan

A generation of settlement are we, and without the steel helmet and the maw of the cannon we shall not plant a tree, nor build a house. Our children shall not have lives to live if we do not dig shelters; and without the barbed wire fence and the machine gun, we shall not pave a path nor drill for water. The millions of Jews, annihilated without a land, peer out at us from the ashes of Israeli history and command us to settle and rebuild a land for our people.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That's really not true. Hamas is a state actor. It's got a government, it has citizens, it controls territory. It's a state actor. Refusing to recognize it as a state actor doesn't make it not a state actor.

And state actors can engage in acts of terrorism as part of war. These things aren't mutually exclusive.



What exactly do you mean by "atrocities"? If any military action against Hamas which results in civilian casualties is considered an atrocity, then actually yes, Israel has the right to commit atrocities.



See, that's just stupid. There's no obligation to publicize your plans. There's no obligation to give your enemy an opportunity to thwart them.



It absolutely is. Simple game theory indicates that retaliation is actually a moral imperative. Are you not familiar with tit-for-tat strategies in iterated prisoner's dilemma games?

Legally speaking, War can only take place between two or more states. Hamas is not a state.

Unless you are saying the State of Israel and the State of Palestine are at war.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by Leumas

(1) A state cannot have a war against the people it is already occupying and confining in concentration camps.

(2) Nope... this violence is what the SETTLER COLONIALISTS chose... had they treated their victims not in the same manner the NAZIs treated them and their parents... they might have had a more peaceable outcome... alas!!! It is a wretched fact of the miserable humanity that most of the abused become abusers themselves when they have the power

I'm not sure that's accurate. Palestine is a state recognized by many nations and the UNGA. That means they can legally be in a state of war with Israel.

However Israel says they are at war with Hamas, not Palestine.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Legally speaking,

Legally speaking, Taiwan isn't a separate state independent of China.

But in reality it is.

The reality is that Israel and Hamas are at war. If the law doesn't recognize that, that's a shortcoming of the law, it doesn't determine the reality.

Quote:

Unless you are saying the State of Israel and the State of Palestine are at war.

Gaza and the West Bank are functionally independent of each other. "Palestine" suggests both, and Israel is not currently at war with the West Bank. Recognized or not, Gaza is effectively a state, and since Hamas controls Gaza, Hamas is that state.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Leumas

(1) A state cannot have a war against the people it is already occupying and confining in concentration camps.

Israel did not occupy any part of Gaza since 2005.

Quote:

(2) Nope... this violence is what the SETTLER COLONIALISTS chose... had they treated their victims not in the same manner the NAZIs treated them and their parents... they might have had a more peaceable outcome... alas!!! It is a wretched fact of the miserable humanity that most of the abused become abusers themselves when they have the power

If Israel actually treated Gaza like the Nazis treated the Jews, then Gaza would have been wiped clean of all Palestinians decades ago. Instead, the population of Gaza has continually increased, and not because of immigration. What kind of genocide produces population growth among its victims? And how stupid do you think other forum members are that you expect anyone would buy your comparison for even a second?

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

...Israel as a county at least has had the potential to not be that.

But instead religious zealot psychopaths in power made that impossible... even before the creation of Israel.

Like these guys and Netanyahu and his allies in government and the war criminals and terrorists who founded his Likud party.

[JoeMorgue]

Someone give me a valid criticism of Israel that doesn't apply to Hamas times 1,000.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Someone give me a valid criticism of Israel that doesn't apply to Hamas times 1,000.

They're Jews.

At the end of the day, that's the real difference that gets Israel condemned and Hamas excused. There's really no point in pretending there's anything else behind it.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Israel did not occupy any part of Gaza since 2005.

Hahaha... the most risible "alternative 'facts'" promulgated by Israel to bamboozle only the most willingly gullible people.... you know jolly well that the above statement is pure hoodwinking.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

...how stupid do you think other forum members are that you expect anyone would buy [...][this] for even a second?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If Israel actually treated Gaza like the Nazis treated the Jews, then Gaza would have been wiped clean of all Palestinians decades ago.

Are you stating that the Nazis exterminated all Jews in Europe... or even the ones in their concentration camps?

You know jolly well that this not the case...

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

...how stupid do you think other forum members are that you expect anyone would buy [...][this] for even a second?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Instead, the population of Gaza has continually increased,

Yes with refugees from Israel.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

and not because of immigration.

No... because of refugees from Israel

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What kind of genocide produces population growth among its victims? And how stupid do you think other forum members are that you expect anyone would buy your comparison for even a second?

The kind of genocide and ethnic cleansing that Israel did on the Palestinians.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Someone give me a valid criticism of Israel that doesn't apply to Hamas times 1,000.

Settler Colonialism... Ethnic cleansing... apartheid... cutting off water and food and power from millions of people... occupying other people... demolishing people's houses and making refugees out of them (if not also kill them or imprison them) in order to take their land for settler colonials from Ukraine and Russia and USA and India and Africa etc.

etc. etc. etc.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Leumas

(1) A state cannot have a war against the people it is already occupying and confining in concentration camps.

(2) Nope... this violence is what the SETTLER COLONIALISTS chose... had they treated their victims not in the same manner the NAZIs treated them and their parents... they might have had a more peaceable outcome... alas!!! It is a wretched fact of the miserable humanity that most of the abused become abusers themselves when they have the power

It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t make it true.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by webfusion

Not only did HAMAS directly choose to start a war,

So when the resistance against the Nazi occupation were subjected to Sippenhaftung by the Nazis... it was the resistance's fault as the Nazis claimed?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Hahaha... the most risible "alternative 'facts'" promulgated by Israel to bamboozle only the most willingly gullible people.... you know jolly well that the above statement is pure hoodwinking.

It's absolutely true. Which is why you can't refute it, only deny it.

Quote:

Are you stating that the Nazis exterminated all Jews in Europe... or even the ones in their concentration camps?

They tried to, and given more time, they would have. They only failed because they ran out of time.

Israel has had plenty of time. They have not tried to. That much is clear. Even you must know that, though you pretend otherwise.

Quote:

Yes with refugees from Israel.

Gaza hasn't had refugees from Israel in decades. They have had population growth internally during those decades. Seriously, do you not know anything about Gaza demographics? Hell, internal population growth is something that Hamas uses as justification for not making peace with Israel. They believe that they'll eventually overtake Israel in population size and so victory is inevitable.

That's not what genocide looks like.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by lionking

It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t make it true.

It is true... and it does not matter how many times you deny it... it will still remain true.

[webfusion]

Leumas, what do you propose happen from here on out?

(Besides the idea of demolishing the structures within the 37-acre public park known as Haram alSharif?)

You keep quoting history, and that's all so very (academically) interesting, but what about 2024?

That's what everyone is trying to evaluate.

N.B. -- An agreement was reportedly reached between Israel and Hamas for the release of Palestinian female and child prisoners that Israel holds, in exchange for freeing one hundred hostages from the Gaza Strip, according to Saudi network Al Arabiya (published at 9am Israel time).

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It's absolutely true. Which is why you can't refute it, only deny it.

It is totally not true... which is why you keep bare asserting despite the FACTS of international law and sanity.

[JoeMorgue]

"White guilt" isn't a reason. Try again.

[JoeMorgue]

Again I guess this will just all keep going on and on until the God that doesn't exist finally gets around to coming down from Heaven and clarifying which herd of illiterate bronze age goat herders he really did promise that 25 mile strip of desert scrub land to.

[webfusion]

It's true.
It's not true.
Lies.
Facts.
Lies.
Reality.
Misinformation.
Willful ignorance.
Regular ignorance.
Fake news.
Truth.
Not truth.
Denials.
Fabrications.
Cherry picking.
False.
Accurate.
Never happened.
Happened.
Believe your own eyes.
Don't believe your own eyes.

This is the entire discussion overall, in a nutshell (not just here, but all over social media).

[webfusion]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again I guess this will just all keep going on and on until the God that doesn't exist finally gets around to coming down from Heaven and clarifying which herd of illiterate bronze age goat herders he really did promise that 25 mile strip of desert scrub land to.

Keep in mind that many Christian supporters of Israel do so with the belief that God will indeed come down and sort this out. (Armegeddon)

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by Leumas

It is totally not true... which is why you keep bare asserting despite the FACTS of international law and sanity.

You really should not talk about international law until you expect the Palestinian Arabs to abide by it. Which Hamas and Islamic jihad and Hezbollah refuse to do.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"White guilt"

Is the reason Israel was created in the first place... and of course to precipitate the Mulligan of Jesus.

[JoeMorgue]

As others have always asked what the solution NOW?

"So and so happened 50, 100, or a thousand years ago" is good context, but it's not a solution.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

You really should not talk about international law until you expect the Palestinian Arabs to abide by it. Which Hamas and Islamic jihad and Hezbollah refuse to do.

Israel was created by international law... and it has not obeyed a single other ever since... and broken numerous ones.

The Palestinians were ****** by international law and dispossessed and made refugees... international law in fact fully allows their armed resistance as totally legitimate.

So I am afraid you have it totally all muddled up and topsy turvy... I suggest you learn the history and international laws on the matter... you very clearly do not know either.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

As others have always asked what the solution NOW?.

Very simply... just like the solution applied in South Africa.

[webfusion]

Israel was 'created' in the late 1800's through the 1930's (a period of about 40 years).
Our Jewish State did not arise full-grown and complete in 1947, but rather, was a half-century in the making. While it may indeed be accurate to state that the voting of 57 UN member states on November 29, 1947 was perhaps partly because of international 'guilt' , by that point in time, Israel was already a Nation in statu nascendi and the main question remaining was 'in what boundaries' would the Jewish State exist within?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._for_Palestine

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again I guess this will just all keep going on and on.

Only because the venal governments of the USA and Europe and because of the demented Christian Zionists... and the "white guilt" of the less venal and less demented... but only in favor of the other whites of Europe who do not kiss the feet of a half naked tortured male statue... but no guilt whatsoever about the various colors of the Palestinians of course.

It all can be resolved in a few weeks if only the UN that created Israel and the concentration camps it created... could apply and enforce the scads of resolutions that Israel has laughed at and will never obey.

Or the International countries who created Israel in the first place would make it do what they made South Africa do.

Why was the world willing to force the Afrikaans to stop their atrocities but not the Zionists??? Hmmmmm!!!

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Leumas

It is totally not true... which is why you keep bare asserting despite the FACTS of international law and sanity.

Again, my most charitable interpretation is that you have once again lost track of the discussion.

Israel removed all its settlers from Gaza in 2005. Since then, Israelis have not occupied Gaza. That's a fact. Whatever it is you think Israel was doing, it wasn't occupation.

[webfusion]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Israel was created by international law... and it has not obeyed a single other ever since... and broken numerous ones.

The Palestinians were ****** by international law and dispossessed and made refugees... international law in fact fully allows their armed resistance as totally legitimate.

So I am afraid you have it totally all muddled up and topsy turvy... I suggest you learn the history and international laws on the matter... you very clearly do not know either.

International Law is a funny thing, Leumas.
It's mostly dis-honored internationally.
And the mechanisms for enforcement are vague and timid.

While the Palestinians might actually trust and believe that the International Community is going to come to their aid, that is a dubious proposition, at best.

"ThePalestinians" were not dispossessed. A Palestinian from Haifa that went a few miles down the road to Jenin and became an 'internal refugee' (remaining within the boundaries of what had been considered HistoricalPalestine for many hundreds of years prior). He was indeed dispossessd of his home (and it may even have been a rental property) but he cannot be said to have left Palestine.
Same with Gaza. It's obviously part of HistoricalPalestine, so he's still 'at home' in his own land, no?

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-772528
Goodbye freedom, hello madness.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by webfusion

Leumas, what do you propose happen from here on out?

Two words...

South Africa!!!

[JoeMorgue]

"Palestinians" aren't really a thing that actually exists (in the context the term is used in discussion of this topic.) This has been explained multiple times.

Again pretending this is an "Israel versus Palestine" conflict and not "Israel versus the Entire Middle East" is basically Hamas propaganda trying to present the tiny postage stamp that is Israel on the coffee table is the Middle East as somehow the overdog (that still needs to be a word) in the conflict because Hamas knows damn well Western Liberals will just side with the underdog in the conflict and then stop thinking, exactly as they are doing now.

Again it's absurd piled on absurd and I don't know if it sadder that people are honestly falling for this or that people expect me to believe they are falling for it.

The Middle East is 2,782,860 square miles. Practically all of that is Muslim majority, Arabic Speaking countries. Israel is 8,555 square miles.

Every single neighboring Muslim country has made it their business to wipe Israel off the map as long as there has been an Israel in a modern nation-state sense of the term.

There's over 2.5 million square miles of ethnocentric Muslim mono-state and the simple idea that the solution to this crisis is for the tiny postage stamp full of Jews to give back some of their 8,500 square miles and that will solve everything is goddamn laughable.

Israel could be 12 square inches and the Muslim world would demand they give back 11 inches and that would solve it and we all know it.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Again, my most charitable interpretation is that you have once again lost track of the discussion.

Israel removed all its settlers from Gaza in 2005. Since then, Israelis have not occupied Gaza. That's a fact. Whatever it is you think Israel was doing, it wasn't occupation.

And my most charitable interpretation is....

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Why was the world willing to force the Afrikaans to stop their atrocities but not the Zionists??? Hmmmmm!!!

Because the people the Afrikaans were in a conflict with hadn't declared a Holy War on the entire world?

Because the people the Afrikaans were in a conflict with wouldn't kill me, you, everyone in this thread, and every Western Coffee Shop Liberal no matter how hard they simp for them?

[webfusion]

You want to bring about the fiasco of tribal South Africa to the prosperous and stable and non-tribal Jewish State?
Not too convincing an argument, and that's being charitable.
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-pe...-a-basket-case

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by webfusion

You want to bring about the fiasco of tribal South Africa to the prosperous and stable and non-tribal Jewish State?
Not too convincing an argument, dude.
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-pe...-a-basket-case

Yeah, I really don't get that. The more you draw a parallel to South Africa, the more Israelis are going to look at that and decide they want no part of it, because that's turned into a complete **** show. They literally can't keep the lights on anymore.

If you're trying to look for a success story to conflict resolution, Northern Ireland is a much better example. But that was still a very different sort of conflict, not a good parallel, and Hamas is clearly not willing to do what the IRA was willing to do in order to make peace.

[JoeMorgue]

Some people are obviously far more interested in writing a story with character arcs and dramatic irony about the Israelis because they think it's clever, they aren't actually just trying to describe the situations or come to a solution.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again people are trying to write a story with character arcs and dramatic irony about the Israelis because they think it's clever, they aren't actually just trying to describe the situations or come to a solution.

They don't want a solution. They want a scape goat.