[Continuation] General UK Politics V Suella Strikes Back - Page 4

zooterkin · 10th November 2023, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Another one that needs to go on the list like the RNLB.

RNLI or RNIB?

Gulliver Foyle · 11th November 2023, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by SteveAitch

But she apparently wants him to sack her, she doesn't want to resign.

So maybe he shouldn't sack her. Just have a mini cabinet re-shuffle and move her to a really low level post. Then she either has to resign, which she doesn't want to do, or take up the new position and be ever-so-slightly humiliated.

Make her the junior most minister in the home office under and answering to her worst enemy, Kemi Badenough (just appointed the second most junior minister there).

Gulliver Foyle · 11th November 2023, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

The British Legion says it backs the rights of the pro Palestinian demonstrators' right to protest and march.

That sound you heard was GB News and the Daily Mail spontaneously combusting in rage.

The Legion are a decent lot, overwhemingly friendly and polite.

It's the governments of the day that have made Armistice Day into the festival of jingo.

Darat · 11th November 2023, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

RNLI or RNIB?

Bah can't even blame autocorrect. Brain fart, RNLI.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

What are you wittering about this time?

Where do you mean by 'here'? You're apparently in Finland.

Yes, your post did say "in the context of WWII", but that's the first mention of WWII in the thread, so you're the one implying that veterans must be from that war to qualify for the name. Given that there can only be handful of people who were in the forces in WWII still alive today, who do you think Poppy Day is in aid of now?

As GlennB says, British service personnel have been serving since WWII, and many of them have seen active service around the world.

Do you think veterans don't deserve any respect for what they've done?

Please explain what you mean by this phrase; is it intended to be gender-specific (would you have aimed it at a guy)?

Nobody said they do not deserve respect. What I said was former defence forces personnel would be horrified if the SUN newspaper demanded they had special treatment as hothouse flowers just because some ignorant person was rude to them whilst selling poppies.

But yes, WWII veterans are revered and rightly so. Few are still alive but to say they are the same as any ex-defence forces personnel is a moot point.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

His skin colour has already done that. It amazes me that she thinks she can get around that obstacle with the faithful.

I disagree with this. Indian culture is just as much class-bound as in England. The Conservative faithful like Rish! because he is an affable toff in a sharp suit and is a money-minded banker with their profits close to his heart. They like Suellen because she is a horrible snob just like themselves.

Darat · 11th November 2023, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Please explain what you mean by this phrase; is it intended to be gender-specific (would you have aimed it at a guy)?

Nobody said they do not deserve respect. What I said was former defence forces personnel would be horrified if the SUN newspaper demanded they had special treatment as hothouse flowers just because some ignorant person was rude to them whilst selling poppies.

But yes, WWII veterans are revered and rightly so. Few are still alive but to say they are the same as any ex-defence forces personnel is a moot point.

Ding, dong. Sorry to interrupt but you seem to have forgotten it was your claim that only those in the military during WWII are known as veterans which was corrected. Your post I quote above is a prime example of what "wittering on" describes. Thanks for the example, handy to have if someone wants an example of "wittering on" rather than just its definition.

Darat · 11th November 2023, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

I disagree with this. Indian culture is just as much class-bound as in England. The Conservative faithful like Rish! because he is an affable toff in a sharp suit and is a money-minded banker with their profits close to his heart. They like Suellen because she is a horrible snob just like themselves.

Rubbish. He lost to Truss.

Mojo · 11th November 2023, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Please explain what you mean by this phrase; is it intended to be gender-specific (would you have aimed it at a guy)?

"Witter" is not gender-specific.

Mongrel · 11th November 2023, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by SteveAitch

But she apparently wants him to sack her, she doesn't want to resign.

So maybe he shouldn't sack her. Just have a mini cabinet re-shuffle and move her to a really low level post. Then she either has to resign, which she doesn't want to do, or take up the new position and be ever-so-slightly humiliated.

A problem is that distancing herself from power may well be what she wants, when the time comes for a leadership contest she'll have distanced herself from the major decisions and be able to say "If only they'd listened to me we wouldn't be in this mess".

He needs to sack her and remove the whip, it may cost them a safe seat in the next election due to splitting the vote but at the current polling one more isn't going to make a difference

jimbob · 11th November 2023, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by Mongrel

A problem is that distancing herself from power may well be what she wants, when the time comes for a leadership contest she'll have distanced herself from the major decisions and be able to say "If only they'd listened to me we wouldn't be in this mess".

He needs to sack her and remove the whip, it may cost them a safe seat in the next election due to splitting the vote but at the current polling one more isn't going to make a difference

Exactly. Sunak should be able to win a game of chicken with her - especially if he accepts that he has nothing to lose but I would have thought the satisfaction of ruining her political career when she has been so treacherous towards him could have been a motivation.

Andy_Ross · 11th November 2023, 04:08 AM

It's not fair to say he's too weak to sack Suella. He's just taking time to properly consider it before deciding to do nothing.

zooterkin · 11th November 2023, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Please explain what you mean by this phrase;

What do you think I mean? It's perfectly normal English.

Quote:

is it intended to be gender-specific (would you have aimed it at a guy)?

Don't be utterly ridiculous.

Quote:

Nobody said they do not deserve respect. What I said was former defence forces personnel would be horrified if the SUN newspaper demanded they had special treatment as hothouse flowers just because some ignorant person was rude to them whilst selling poppies.

We can all read what you said, though you appear to have difficulty with remembering. Let me help you:

Originally Posted by Vixen

Originally Posted by Darat

Originally Posted by Vixen

In any case, someone aged 78-years-old hardly qualifies as a 'veteran' in the context of WWII. The youngest conscripts then would now be well into their late 90's and early 100's.

...snip...

Military "veteran" has never meant either just WW2 or even only the world wars. Which morons think that?

Here, it refers only to those who fought in the war. I know in the USA it means anyone who served in the armed forces. My post did say 'within the context of WWII', otherwise, all ex-armed forces personnel will be featured in SUN newspaper headlines as being precious hothouse flowers who should be accorded special privileged treatment like the 78-year-old fellow in his beret. Not nice to be dissed but it is hardly headline news, was the point being made.

You are claiming that only those who served in WWII should be referred to as 'veterans'.

So, to repeat, where is 'Here'?

Quote:

But yes, WWII veterans are revered and rightly so. Few are still alive but to say they are the same as any ex-defence forces personnel is a moot point.

Again, why are you limiting it to WWII veterans?

Mojo · 11th November 2023, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Again, why are you limiting it to WWII veterans?

Perhaps it's to compensate them for having had to fight on both sides.

jeremyp · 11th November 2023, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

He keeps wearing a parachute regiment cap badge and parachute maroon beret. He was in the Royal Corps of Signals and is only entitled to their badge and a dark blue beret.

Even if he was in a unit that was part of the Air Assault Brigade he only got to wear a maroon beret while part of the brigade.

Wearing a parachute regiment badge and beret is the most Walter thing you can do.

But this is just you saying it. Do you understand that the reason I ask for a citation is because you just saying it is not evidence?

Furthermore, he's not in the army now, he can wear any damn colour beret he likes. He can wear whatever insignia he likes. In fact, the photos I've seen of him (upthread) suggest he wears the insignia of several units. It seems like this is just a costume he wears whilst selling poppies.

KDLarsen · 11th November 2023, 06:13 AM

Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough excuse for Sunak to sack her.

jimbob · 11th November 2023, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by KDLarsen

Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough excuse for Sunak to sack her.

Sunak is obviously not looking for an excuse to sack her. He seems to be looking for reasons to keep her on.

All he needed to do was, as soon as the Times article came out, sack her with immediate effect and put the justice secretary in as interim Home Secretary until he could have a proper reshuffle.

He needed to act quickly to stamp on her. But he's failed. And even if he sacks her in the next five minutes it's too late.

He also risks losing the least insane Tory MPs.

Darat · 11th November 2023, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by KDLarsen

Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough ~~excuse for Sunak to sack her.~~ reason for her to be arrested for promoting extremism and violence.

FTFY!

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

First they came for Boris and I said nothing.

Then they came for Suella and I said she's just over there, hiding behind the shed.
Because I didn’t want to make the same mistake twice.

Garrison · 11th November 2023, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by KDLarsen

Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough excuse for Sunak to sack her.

To clarify the clashes seem to have been entirely between the police and the far right thugs, not with the estimated 300,000 protestors on the other side. When that many people are willing to turn out for a march on a chilly Saturday in November I think Sunak and Braverman have picked the wrong side to attack, as usual.

I do hope someone calls for Braverman to be investigated for incitement to violence.

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 08:32 AM

We it appears that, as expected by everyone with a functional brain, the "counter-protestors" started the trouble.

Andy_Ross · 11th November 2023, 08:54 AM

The actual march was about 2 miles from the Cenotaph.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

What do you think I mean? It's perfectly normal English.

Don't be utterly ridiculous.

We can all read what you said, though you appear to have difficulty with remembering. Let me help you:

You are claiming that only those who served in WWII should be referred to as 'veterans'.

So, to repeat, where is 'Here'?

Again, why are you limiting it to WWII veterans?

Once again, I have to ask you to please always quote me in context. The context of my remarks was the SUN newspaper running a headline PROTECT OUR VETERANS using a 78-year-old guy who claims yobs upset him whilst he was selling poppies. I was simply pointing out the SUN trying to convey the impression that this 78-year-old beret-wearing guy was some frail old relic from WWII was quite misleading to the average SUN reader, as he was not a WWII veteran as they were trying to imply.

My two brothers both served in Iraq as Captain in the British Army. I am sure they both would be tough enough to cope with yobs dissing their poppy selling. My father was in the RAF in WWII. He died ten years ago. Were he alive today he would be in his late-nineties and were he selling poppies and some yobs berated him, then the SUN might have a point about 'PROTECT OUR VETERANS'.

That was my opinion. My opinion, 'wittering' your opinion, gold?

'Here' is Finland, which was at war against the USSR the same time. My uncles and grandfather - two of whom having served frontline both in the Winter War and the Continuation War - after the war, were given 'Freedom of the City', which included being allowed to park wherever they liked, and two of them, whom I never met, were dead as young men lying in war memorial graves. All of them are dead now. The veterans still alive are celebrated and feted every independence day.

Not all ex-defence forces personnel are equal although all have given valuable service to their country.

Of course all of those who served in places like Afghanistan, etcetera, are war veterans. But the SUN article was homing in on this 78-year-old guy's age, hence my sardonic comments about how he was hardly precious.

Mojo · 11th November 2023, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

'Here' is Finland, which was at war against the USSR the same time. My uncles and grandfather - two of whom having served frontline both in the Winter War and the Continuation War...

What about the Lapland War^WP?

Gulliver Foyle · 11th November 2023, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by KDLarsen

Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough excuse for Sunak to sack her.

It's fairly certain by now that the only people causing trouble today are SueAdolf's buddies.

zooterkin · 11th November 2023, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Once again, I have to ask you to please always quote me in context. The context of my remarks was the SUN newspaper running a headline PROTECT OUR VETERANS using a 78-year-old guy who claims yobs upset him whilst he was selling poppies. I was simply pointing out the SUN trying to convey the impression that this 78-year-old beret-wearing guy was some frail old relic from WWII was quite misleading to the average SUN reader, as he was not a WWII veteran as they were trying to imply.

I did quote you in context.

Now, where exactly did the Sun imply that he was a WWII veteran? It's not been quoted in this thread, and I didn't see any links.

And why does a 78-year-old automatically not count as frail, or a veteran?

Quote:

'Here' is Finland

This is the UK politics thread, so the meaning of 'veteran' in Finland is irrelevant.

Quote:

Of course all of those who served in places like Afghanistan, etcetera, are war veterans. But the SUN article was homing in on this 78-year-old guy's age, hence my sardonic comments about how he was hardly precious.

If he's 78, then they cannot be implying that he was a WWII veteran since he was only just born when the war ended. I've no idea where this judgement about him being precious or not is coming from.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I did quote you in context.

Now, where exactly did the Sun imply that he was a WWII veteran? It's not been quoted in this thread, and I didn't see any links.

And why does a 78-year-old automatically not count as frail, or a veteran?

This is the UK politics thread, so the meaning of 'veteran' in Finland is irrelevant.

If he's 78, then they cannot be implying that he was a WWII veteran since he was only just born when the war ended. I've no idea where this judgement about him being precious or not is coming from.

You have caught up at last. That was the point I was making: the 78-year-old guy did not need the SUN newspaper's protection of 'OUR VETERANS'.

zooterkin · 11th November 2023, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

You have caught up at last. That was the point I was making: the 78-year-old guy did not need the SUN newspaper's protection of 'OUR VETERANS'.

Do you think you could answer the post I made, not the one in your head?

What did the Sun actually say? You're the only one apparently privy to this information.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Do you think you could answer the post I made, not the one in your head?

What did the Sun actually say? You're the only one apparently privy to this information.

The SUN seems to have taken the article down now it transpires that the 78-year-old guy in the beret wasn't a veteran of the Parachute Regiment* needing protection after all.

*read = 'hero of the highest order'.

Andy_Ross · 11th November 2023, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

It's fairly certain by now that the only people causing trouble today are SueAdolf's buddies.

Apparently they have decided it was a set up to make them look bad.
The police were waiting in force dressed in riot gear and provoked the trouble.
It's all part of the plan to undermine white Christian Britain and replace everyone with Islamic extremists.

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Once again, I have to ask you to please always quote me in context. The context of my remarks was the SUN newspaper running a headline PROTECT OUR VETERANS using a 78-year-old guy who claims yobs upset him whilst he was selling poppies. I was simply pointing out the SUN trying to convey the impression that this 78-year-old beret-wearing guy was some frail old relic from WWII was quite misleading to the average SUN reader, as he was not a WWII veteran as they were trying to imply.

My two brothers both served in Iraq as Captain in the British Army. I am sure they both would be tough enough to cope with yobs dissing their poppy selling. My father was in the RAF in WWII. He died ten years ago. Were he alive today he would be in his late-nineties and were he selling poppies and some yobs berated him, then the SUN might have a point about 'PROTECT OUR VETERANS'.

That was my opinion. My opinion, 'wittering' your opinion, gold?

'Here' is Finland, which was at war against the USSR the same time. My uncles and grandfather - two of whom having served frontline both in the Winter War and the Continuation War - after the war, were given 'Freedom of the City', which included being allowed to park wherever they liked, and two of them, whom I never met, were dead as young men lying in war memorial graves. All of them are dead now. The veterans still alive are celebrated and feted every independence day.

Not all ex-defence forces personnel are equal although all have given valuable service to their country.

Of course all of those who served in places like Afghanistan, etcetera, are war veterans. But the SUN article was homing in on this 78-year-old guy's age, hence my sardonic comments about how he was hardly precious.

Were they? I think even the average Sun reader isn't actually that stupid.
Now while the average Sun reader is stupid even they should be able to do some basic arithmetic.

aniri · 11th November 2023, 10:45 AM

Is there a particular reason why it was so important for the pro-Palestinian protesters to have their protest today (when the British people honour those who died on duty during one of the bloodiest European wars) – as opposed to any other day?

The Don · 11th November 2023, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by aniri

Is there a particular reason why it was so important for the pro-Palestinian protesters to have their protest today (when the British people honour those who died on duty during one of the bloodiest European wars) – as opposed to any other day?

Not pro-Palestinian, pro ceasefire - which makes the date absolutely appropriate.

zooterkin · 11th November 2023, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

The SUN seems to have taken the article down now it transpires that the 78-year-old guy in the beret wasn't a veteran of the Parachute Regiment* needing protection after all.

*read = 'hero of the highest order'.

So you were ranting about something without giving the context but expecting us to know what you were on about? And it's not clear that the Sun implied he was a WWII veteran (which would have been stupid), rather than that being your error, since the article has mysteriously disappeared?

ETA: It hasn't disappeared, here it is - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/246466...ne-protesters/

Vixen, could you point out where it suggests he was a WWII veteran? It gives his age, and says he served in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Not pro-Palestinian, pro ceasefire - which makes the date absolutely appropriate.

This.

aniri · 11th November 2023, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Not pro-Palestinian, pro ceasefire - which makes the date absolutely appropriate.

)

Yeah, right. It's like celebrating, let's say, Easter on Christmas day. Both are Christian holidays after all ...))

Andy_Ross · 11th November 2023, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by aniri

Is there a particular reason why it was so important for the pro-Palestinian protesters to have their protest today (when the British people honour those who died on duty during one of the bloodiest European wars) – as opposed to any other day?

Because it's Saturday, that's the day most people have off and can get to the march. Most marches and demonstrations are on Saturday.

The 'honour' thing is two minutes silence at 11 o'clock observed wherever you happen to be.

It's tomorrow that the remembrance services and acts take place.

The march was two miles from the cenotaph.

jimbob · 11th November 2023, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

You have caught up at last. That was the point I was making: the 78-year-old guy did not need the SUN newspaper's protection of 'OUR VETERANS'.

I'm not following.

You made an irrelevant comment about the Sun implying that he was a WWII veteran, which was utterly ridiculous.

Quote:

using a 78-year-old guy who claims yobs upset him whilst he was selling poppies. I was simply pointing out the SUN trying to convey the impression that this 78-year-old beret-wearing guy was some frail old relic from WWII was quite misleading to

Nobody was implying that.

-------------

Originally Posted by jeremyp

But this is just you saying it. Do you understand that the reason I ask for a citation is because you just saying it is not evidence?

Furthermore, he's not in the army now, he can wear any damn colour beret he likes. He can wear whatever insignia he likes. In fact, the photos I've seen of him (upthread) suggest he wears the insignia of several units. It seems like this is just a costume he wears whilst selling poppies.

I think it is pretty obvious that if the guy is collecting for the British Legion wearing a maroon beret, he's trying to convey the impression that he had been a para. As he hadn't, he is a Walt.

zooterkin · 11th November 2023, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by aniri

)

Yeah, right. It's like celebrating, let's say, Easter on Christmas day. Both are Chgristian holidays after all ...))

Not really, no. Calling for a cease-fire on a day that specifically commemorates a cease-fire is a lot more relevant than that. It's also a Saturday, so more people could attend, and it is possibly the earliest day that something that large could be organised.

Andy_Ross · 11th November 2023, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by aniri

)

Yeah, right. It's like celebrating, let's say, Easter on Christmas day. Both are Chgristian holidays after all ...))

and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.

10th November 2023, 05:02 PM	#121
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 57,139	Originally Posted by Darat Another one that needs to go on the list like the RNLB. RNLI or RNIB?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

11th November 2023, 01:33 AM	#122
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,833	Originally Posted by SteveAitch But she apparently wants him to sack her, she doesn't want to resign. So maybe he shouldn't sack her. Just have a mini cabinet re-shuffle and move her to a really low level post. Then she either has to resign, which she doesn't want to do, or take up the new position and be ever-so-slightly humiliated. Make her the junior most minister in the home office under and answering to her worst enemy, Kemi Badenough (just appointed the second most junior minister there).
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

11th November 2023, 01:37 AM	#123
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,833	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross The British Legion says it backs the rights of the pro Palestinian demonstrators' right to protest and march. That sound you heard was GB News and the Daily Mail spontaneously combusting in rage. The Legion are a decent lot, overwhemingly friendly and polite. It's the governments of the day that have made Armistice Day into the festival of jingo.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

11th November 2023, 02:33 AM	#124
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 112,595	Originally Posted by zooterkin RNLI or RNIB? Bah can't even blame autocorrect. Brain fart, RNLI.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th November 2023, 02:54 AM	#125
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by zooterkin What are you wittering about this time? Where do you mean by 'here'? You're apparently in Finland. Yes, your post did say "in the context of WWII", but that's the first mention of WWII in the thread, so you're the one implying that veterans must be from that war to qualify for the name. Given that there can only be handful of people who were in the forces in WWII still alive today, who do you think Poppy Day is in aid of now? As GlennB says, British service personnel have been serving since WWII, and many of them have seen active service around the world. Do you think veterans don't deserve any respect for what they've done? Please explain what you mean by this phrase; is it intended to be gender-specific (would you have aimed it at a guy)? Nobody said they do not deserve respect. What I said was former defence forces personnel would be horrified if the SUN newspaper demanded they had special treatment as hothouse flowers just because some ignorant person was rude to them whilst selling poppies. But yes, WWII veterans are revered and rightly so. Few are still alive but to say they are the same as any ex-defence forces personnel is a moot point.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig Last edited by Vixen; 11th November 2023 at 02:59 AM.

11th November 2023, 02:58 AM	#126
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by Darat His skin colour has already done that. It amazes me that she thinks she can get around that obstacle with the faithful. I disagree with this. Indian culture is just as much class-bound as in England. The Conservative faithful like Rish! because he is an affable toff in a sharp suit and is a money-minded banker with their profits close to his heart. They like Suellen because she is a horrible snob just like themselves.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 03:03 AM	#127
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 112,595	Originally Posted by Vixen Please explain what you mean by this phrase; is it intended to be gender-specific (would you have aimed it at a guy)? Nobody said they do not deserve respect. What I said was former defence forces personnel would be horrified if the SUN newspaper demanded they had special treatment as hothouse flowers just because some ignorant person was rude to them whilst selling poppies. But yes, WWII veterans are revered and rightly so. Few are still alive but to say they are the same as any ex-defence forces personnel is a moot point. Ding, dong. Sorry to interrupt but you seem to have forgotten it was your claim that only those in the military during WWII are known as veterans which was corrected. Your post I quote above is a prime example of what "wittering on" describes. Thanks for the example, handy to have if someone wants an example of "wittering on" rather than just its definition.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th November 2023, 03:03 AM	#128
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 112,595	Originally Posted by Vixen I disagree with this. Indian culture is just as much class-bound as in England. The Conservative faithful like Rish! because he is an affable toff in a sharp suit and is a money-minded banker with their profits close to his heart. They like Suellen because she is a horrible snob just like themselves. Rubbish. He lost to Truss.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th November 2023, 03:41 AM	#129
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 38,056	Originally Posted by Vixen Please explain what you mean by this phrase; is it intended to be gender-specific (would you have aimed it at a guy)? "Witter" is not gender-specific.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

11th November 2023, 03:50 AM	#130
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK, suburbia. 20 minutes in the future Posts: 2,264	Originally Posted by SteveAitch But she apparently wants him to sack her, she doesn't want to resign. So maybe he shouldn't sack her. Just have a mini cabinet re-shuffle and move her to a really low level post. Then she either has to resign, which she doesn't want to do, or take up the new position and be ever-so-slightly humiliated. A problem is that distancing herself from power may well be what she wants, when the time comes for a leadership contest she'll have distanced herself from the major decisions and be able to say "If only they'd listened to me we wouldn't be in this mess". He needs to sack her and remove the whip, it may cost them a safe seat in the next election due to splitting the vote but at the current polling one more isn't going to make a difference
	__________________ “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer

11th November 2023, 04:00 AM	#131
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 31,382	Originally Posted by Mongrel A problem is that distancing herself from power may well be what she wants, when the time comes for a leadership contest she'll have distanced herself from the major decisions and be able to say "If only they'd listened to me we wouldn't be in this mess". He needs to sack her and remove the whip, it may cost them a safe seat in the next election due to splitting the vote but at the current polling one more isn't going to make a difference Exactly. Sunak should be able to win a game of chicken with her - especially if he accepts that he has nothing to lose but I would have thought the satisfaction of ruining her political career when she has been so treacherous towards him could have been a motivation.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

11th November 2023, 04:08 AM	#132
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,390	It's not fair to say he's too weak to sack Suella. He's just taking time to properly consider it before deciding to do nothing.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

11th November 2023, 04:15 AM	#133
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 57,139	Originally Posted by Vixen Please explain what you mean by this phrase; What do you think I mean? It's perfectly normal English. Quote: is it intended to be gender-specific (would you have aimed it at a guy)? Don't be utterly ridiculous. Quote: Nobody said they do not deserve respect. What I said was former defence forces personnel would be horrified if the SUN newspaper demanded they had special treatment as hothouse flowers just because some ignorant person was rude to them whilst selling poppies. We can all read what you said, though you appear to have difficulty with remembering. Let me help you: Originally Posted by Vixen Originally Posted by Darat Originally Posted by Vixen In any case, someone aged 78-years-old hardly qualifies as a 'veteran' in the context of WWII. The youngest conscripts then would now be well into their late 90's and early 100's. ...snip... Military "veteran" has never meant either just WW2 or even only the world wars. Which morons think that? Here, it refers only to those who fought in the war. I know in the USA it means anyone who served in the armed forces. My post did say 'within the context of WWII', otherwise, all ex-armed forces personnel will be featured in SUN newspaper headlines as being precious hothouse flowers who should be accorded special privileged treatment like the 78-year-old fellow in his beret. Not nice to be dissed but it is hardly headline news, was the point being made. You are claiming that only those who served in WWII should be referred to as 'veterans'. So, to repeat, where is 'Here'? Quote: But yes, WWII veterans are revered and rightly so. Few are still alive but to say they are the same as any ex-defence forces personnel is a moot point. Again, why are you limiting it to WWII veterans?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

11th November 2023, 04:48 AM	#134
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 38,056	Originally Posted by zooterkin Again, why are you limiting it to WWII veterans? Perhaps it's to compensate them for having had to fight on both sides.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

11th November 2023, 05:11 AM	#135
jeremyp Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 3,824	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross He keeps wearing a parachute regiment cap badge and parachute maroon beret. He was in the Royal Corps of Signals and is only entitled to their badge and a dark blue beret. Even if he was in a unit that was part of the Air Assault Brigade he only got to wear a maroon beret while part of the brigade. Wearing a parachute regiment badge and beret is the most Walter thing you can do. But this is just you saying it. Do you understand that the reason I ask for a citation is because you just saying it is not evidence? Furthermore, he's not in the army now, he can wear any damn colour beret he likes. He can wear whatever insignia he likes. In fact, the photos I've seen of him (upthread) suggest he wears the insignia of several units. It seems like this is just a costume he wears whilst selling poppies.

11th November 2023, 06:13 AM	#136
KDLarsen Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,000	Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough excuse for Sunak to sack her.
KDLarsen Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,000

11th November 2023, 07:28 AM	#137
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 31,382	Originally Posted by KDLarsen Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough excuse for Sunak to sack her. Sunak is obviously not looking for an excuse to sack her. He seems to be looking for reasons to keep her on. All he needed to do was, as soon as the Times article came out, sack her with immediate effect and put the justice secretary in as interim Home Secretary until he could have a proper reshuffle. He needed to act quickly to stamp on her. But he's failed. And even if he sacks her in the next five minutes it's too late. He also risks losing the least insane Tory MPs.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

11th November 2023, 08:25 AM	#138
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 112,595	Originally Posted by KDLarsen Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough ~~excuse for Sunak to sack her.~~ reason for her to be arrested for promoting extremism and violence. FTFY!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th November 2023, 08:29 AM	#139
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross First they came for Boris and I said nothing. Then they came for Suella and I said she's just over there, hiding behind the shed. Because I didn’t want to make the same mistake twice.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 08:30 AM	#140
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 6,101	Originally Posted by KDLarsen Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough excuse for Sunak to sack her. To clarify the clashes seem to have been entirely between the police and the far right thugs, not with the estimated 300,000 protestors on the other side. When that many people are willing to turn out for a march on a chilly Saturday in November I think Sunak and Braverman have picked the wrong side to attack, as usual. I do hope someone calls for Braverman to be investigated for incitement to violence.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

11th November 2023, 08:32 AM	#141
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	We it appears that, as expected by everyone with a functional brain, the "counter-protestors" started the trouble.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 08:54 AM	#142
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,390	The actual march was about 2 miles from the Cenotaph.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

11th November 2023, 09:06 AM	#143
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by zooterkin What do you think I mean? It's perfectly normal English. Don't be utterly ridiculous. We can all read what you said, though you appear to have difficulty with remembering. Let me help you: You are claiming that only those who served in WWII should be referred to as 'veterans'. So, to repeat, where is 'Here'? Again, why are you limiting it to WWII veterans? Once again, I have to ask you to please always quote me in context. The context of my remarks was the SUN newspaper running a headline PROTECT OUR VETERANS using a 78-year-old guy who claims yobs upset him whilst he was selling poppies. I was simply pointing out the SUN trying to convey the impression that this 78-year-old beret-wearing guy was some frail old relic from WWII was quite misleading to the average SUN reader, as he was not a WWII veteran as they were trying to imply. My two brothers both served in Iraq as Captain in the British Army. I am sure they both would be tough enough to cope with yobs dissing their poppy selling. My father was in the RAF in WWII. He died ten years ago. Were he alive today he would be in his late-nineties and were he selling poppies and some yobs berated him, then the SUN might have a point about 'PROTECT OUR VETERANS'. That was my opinion. My opinion, 'wittering' your opinion, gold? 'Here' is Finland, which was at war against the USSR the same time. My uncles and grandfather - two of whom having served frontline both in the Winter War and the Continuation War - after the war, were given 'Freedom of the City', which included being allowed to park wherever they liked, and two of them, whom I never met, were dead as young men lying in war memorial graves. All of them are dead now. The veterans still alive are celebrated and feted every independence day. Not all ex-defence forces personnel are equal although all have given valuable service to their country. Of course all of those who served in places like Afghanistan, etcetera, are war veterans. But the SUN article was homing in on this 78-year-old guy's age, hence my sardonic comments about how he was hardly precious.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 09:29 AM	#144
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 38,056	Originally Posted by Vixen 'Here' is Finland, which was at war against the USSR the same time. My uncles and grandfather - two of whom having served frontline both in the Winter War and the Continuation War... What about the Lapland War^WP?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

11th November 2023, 09:29 AM	#145
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,833	Originally Posted by KDLarsen Given the clashes that occurred today, with some of the far right extremists explicitly stating they were there due to Braverman's comments, I'd say that's a decent enough excuse for Sunak to sack her. It's fairly certain by now that the only people causing trouble today are SueAdolf's buddies.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

11th November 2023, 10:15 AM	#146
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 57,139	Originally Posted by Vixen Once again, I have to ask you to please always quote me in context. The context of my remarks was the SUN newspaper running a headline PROTECT OUR VETERANS using a 78-year-old guy who claims yobs upset him whilst he was selling poppies. I was simply pointing out the SUN trying to convey the impression that this 78-year-old beret-wearing guy was some frail old relic from WWII was quite misleading to the average SUN reader, as he was not a WWII veteran as they were trying to imply. I did quote you in context. Now, where exactly did the Sun imply that he was a WWII veteran? It's not been quoted in this thread, and I didn't see any links. And why does a 78-year-old automatically not count as frail, or a veteran? Quote: 'Here' is Finland This is the UK politics thread, so the meaning of 'veteran' in Finland is irrelevant. Quote: Of course all of those who served in places like Afghanistan, etcetera, are war veterans. But the SUN article was homing in on this 78-year-old guy's age, hence my sardonic comments about how he was hardly precious. If he's 78, then they cannot be implying that he was a WWII veteran since he was only just born when the war ended. I've no idea where this judgement about him being precious or not is coming from.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

11th November 2023, 10:18 AM	#147
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by zooterkin I did quote you in context. Now, where exactly did the Sun imply that he was a WWII veteran? It's not been quoted in this thread, and I didn't see any links. And why does a 78-year-old automatically not count as frail, or a veteran? This is the UK politics thread, so the meaning of 'veteran' in Finland is irrelevant. If he's 78, then they cannot be implying that he was a WWII veteran since he was only just born when the war ended. I've no idea where this judgement about him being precious or not is coming from. You have caught up at last. That was the point I was making: the 78-year-old guy did not need the SUN newspaper's protection of 'OUR VETERANS'.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 10:28 AM	#148
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 57,139	Originally Posted by Vixen You have caught up at last. That was the point I was making: the 78-year-old guy did not need the SUN newspaper's protection of 'OUR VETERANS'. Do you think you could answer the post I made, not the one in your head? What did the Sun actually say? You're the only one apparently privy to this information.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

11th November 2023, 10:37 AM	#149
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by zooterkin Do you think you could answer the post I made, not the one in your head? What did the Sun actually say? You're the only one apparently privy to this information. The SUN seems to have taken the article down now it transpires that the 78-year-old guy in the beret wasn't a veteran of the Parachute Regiment* needing protection after all. *read = 'hero of the highest order'.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 10:39 AM	#150
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,390	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle It's fairly certain by now that the only people causing trouble today are SueAdolf's buddies. Apparently they have decided it was a set up to make them look bad. The police were waiting in force dressed in riot gear and provoked the trouble. It's all part of the plan to undermine white Christian Britain and replace everyone with Islamic extremists.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

11th November 2023, 10:40 AM	#151
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by Vixen Once again, I have to ask you to please always quote me in context. The context of my remarks was the SUN newspaper running a headline PROTECT OUR VETERANS using a 78-year-old guy who claims yobs upset him whilst he was selling poppies. I was simply pointing out the SUN trying to convey the impression that this 78-year-old beret-wearing guy was some frail old relic from WWII was quite misleading to the average SUN reader, as he was not a WWII veteran as they were trying to imply. My two brothers both served in Iraq as Captain in the British Army. I am sure they both would be tough enough to cope with yobs dissing their poppy selling. My father was in the RAF in WWII. He died ten years ago. Were he alive today he would be in his late-nineties and were he selling poppies and some yobs berated him, then the SUN might have a point about 'PROTECT OUR VETERANS'. That was my opinion. My opinion, 'wittering' your opinion, gold? 'Here' is Finland, which was at war against the USSR the same time. My uncles and grandfather - two of whom having served frontline both in the Winter War and the Continuation War - after the war, were given 'Freedom of the City', which included being allowed to park wherever they liked, and two of them, whom I never met, were dead as young men lying in war memorial graves. All of them are dead now. The veterans still alive are celebrated and feted every independence day. Not all ex-defence forces personnel are equal although all have given valuable service to their country. Of course all of those who served in places like Afghanistan, etcetera, are war veterans. But the SUN article was homing in on this 78-year-old guy's age, hence my sardonic comments about how he was hardly precious. Were they? I think even the average Sun reader isn't actually that stupid. Now while the average Sun reader is stupid even they should be able to do some basic arithmetic.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 10:45 AM	#152
aniri Scholar Join Date: Mar 2022 Posts: 80	Is there a particular reason why it was so important for the pro-Palestinian protesters to have their protest today (when the British people honour those who died on duty during one of the bloodiest European wars) – as opposed to any other day?
aniri Scholar Join Date: Mar 2022 Posts: 80

11th November 2023, 11:08 AM	#153
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 37,271	Originally Posted by aniri Is there a particular reason why it was so important for the pro-Palestinian protesters to have their protest today (when the British people honour those who died on duty during one of the bloodiest European wars) – as opposed to any other day? Not pro-Palestinian, pro ceasefire - which makes the date absolutely appropriate.

11th November 2023, 11:10 AM	#154
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 57,139	Originally Posted by Vixen The SUN seems to have taken the article down now it transpires that the 78-year-old guy in the beret wasn't a veteran of the Parachute Regiment* needing protection after all. *read = 'hero of the highest order'. So you were ranting about something without giving the context but expecting us to know what you were on about? And it's not clear that the Sun implied he was a WWII veteran (which would have been stupid), rather than that being your error, since the article has mysteriously disappeared? ETA: It hasn't disappeared, here it is - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/246466...ne-protesters/ Vixen, could you point out where it suggests he was a WWII veteran? It gives his age, and says he served in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 Last edited by zooterkin; 11th November 2023 at 11:14 AM.

11th November 2023, 11:11 AM	#155
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by The Don Not pro-Palestinian, pro ceasefire - which makes the date absolutely appropriate. This.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.