[Continuation] Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II - Page 10

GlennB · 11th November 2023, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

As I pointed out, this has nothing to do with 'national security'.

Here you can ring up the national population centre and ask for anybody's address. When I worked in insolvency practice we had no problem in finding people and discovering what assets they owned via Land Registry and it was all quite legal.

Nobody cares. Why do you keep mentioning it when it's totally ******* irrelevant?

You cannot determine an owner's name and address via a car reg. IN THE UK except by written application to DVLA, and they will want a good, well-documented reason and are notoriously slow.

Andy_Ross · 11th November 2023, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Dabop

It actually worked out only about 100kg heavier than normal- and in a ute with a 1000kg payload capacity, and a 2400kg tow capacity- that 100kg is practically nothing....

Losing a cast iron diesel block, and a 75L fuel tank makes up almost all the extra battery weight...
And it has a massive improvement in acceleration to boot- he can easily take on V8's with a 0-100 time of about 7 seconds- the stock 3L diesel takes about 15 seconds to to the same thing...
He also gets to run basically for free (only rego and tyres etc) since 2009, where my almost identical ute (except mines 4wd) costs $10 per 100km in fuel alone...

(his house is offgrid, with his solar panels recharging the ute during the day, as well as the house battery bank)

I mentioned it previously but there is a good tv show all about converting cars to EV. It follows a company in Wales that specialise in it.
Lots of custom engineering of mounts and adapter plates involved.

https://www.vintagevoltage.tv/

Jack by the hedge · 11th November 2023, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

AIUI It was one and a half hours to the floor collapsing.

One and a half hours after what point, and based on what evidence?

When so many cars had been ablaze for so long what made you decide you knew exactly which car from floor 3 was shown falling through a collapsing floor in a video that may well be a camera on the ground floor?

Rhetorical question of course: you just made it up. You made up a story in your head and that became the truth for you and how dare these fools challenge it?

This thread is a low ebb.

zooterkin · 11th November 2023, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

DAILY TELEGRAPH calls it 'one car'.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSZUBvdo1bw

After one diesel car caught alight, and then the fire spread to other cars...

Andy_Ross · 11th November 2023, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

DAILY TELEGRAPH calls it 'one car'.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSZUBvdo1bw

Why would you rely on a second hand source in a newspaper rather than the fire service themselves?

GlennB · 11th November 2023, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

One and a half hours after what point, and based on what evidence?

When so many cars had been ablaze for so long what made you decide you knew exactly which car from floor 3 was shown falling through a collapsing floor in a video that may well be a camera on the ground floor?

Rhetorical question of course: you just made it up. You made up a story in your head and that became the truth for you and how dare these fools challenge it?

This thread is a low ebb.

Hard to see how it could be anything else. There are entry barriers there and I've only ever seen those at the ground level.

Darat · 11th November 2023, 04:35 AM

I still would like to see their filled in insurance form. "Please list other vehicles involved in the claim", "Please list the damage to the other vehicles involved in the incident".

Darat · 11th November 2023, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Why would you rely on a second hand source in a newspaper rather than the fire service themselves?

Me! Me! Pick me!!

Sophistry.

Google dictionary:

noun sophistry
the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
a fallacious argument.
specious reasoning the use of fallacious arguments sophism casuistry quibbling equivocation fallaciousness fallacious argument sophism fallacy quibble paralogism

Steve · 11th November 2023, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Why would you rely on a second hand source in a newspaper rather than the fire service themselves?

Because conspiracies abound!!! Official statements are always worded to deceive and cover up vitally important information. Only intrepid reporters (and renowned internet sleuths

) have the fortitude to ferret out the actual details and report them accurately. Anything written in a newspaper (or blog, etc.) is true by virtue of where it is reported, and cannot be questioned.

phiwum · 11th November 2023, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

His video was used by the worldwide press, including BBC, ITV, APF and Reuters. He confirmed it was his original and he has the copyright. Unlike the guy who claims to have the film from the front of the vehicle and the person who claims to have deciphered the number plate and identified the make and model. Learn to spot fake from authentic.

You think that online AI can match a scene so well in a video? Maybe a professional job can do well, but a low number of followers suggests he's not a pro troll.

I could be wrong, but your list of discrepancies suggests that you are quick to dismiss evidence that doesn't suit you.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

phiwum · 11th November 2023, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

They are just giving you bland platitudes. Within hours a fire fighter told a journalist it was probably a fuel line leak (just like the one in Liverpool). Learn to differentiate considered speculation from confirmed fact.

It is clear the brand is being protected for now or it would have been named.

It is only speculation it was a Range Rover. Some say it is a Tesla from its outline.

Again, you are missing the point. They could have said nothing about whether it was vehicle fault, driver fault or intentional. If they're trying to avoid casting attention on the manufacturer, this would be the thing to do. If they're willing to bend the truth, either of the other two causes would serve a purpose.

If the arrest announcement was intended to distract attention away from the vehicle, then they purposely undercut its affect by blaming vehicle fault in the same press conference.

It doesn't matter whether the phrase "vehicle fault" is vague or precise. It has the opposite effect of what you claim they desired.

W.D.Clinger · 11th November 2023, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Learn to spot fake from authentic.

This thread has given us so many opportunities to learn that skill that we should, by now, be pretty good at distinguishing fake expertise from authentic.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Learn to differentiate considered speculation from confirmed fact.

Good idea.

These are confirmed facts:

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

It has been confirmed that it was a diesel car. You can read it on the official fire service website.

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

It has been confirmed that it was a diesel car by the fire service.

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

It has been confirmed to be a diesel car by the fire service.
It was confirmed weeks ago.

phiwum · 11th November 2023, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

The spread of fire is quite predictable. This is why fire prevention and safety measures work. When they go wrong it will be to do with human error.

So, it is your opinion that if there are two car park fires that began with the same make of vehicle and both lead to a collapse of the car park, then the length of time from ignition of the fire to the collapse will be roughly the same? If it varies by too much, then the two initial vehicles cannot be the same?

We haven't heard whether the two car parks had the same density of vehicles, how many vehicles were close to the initial vehicle and other details of vehicle placement. You and I don't know about differences in construction of the car park, whether the effects of ventilation were similar and I'm sure a million details that I'm just too ignorant to come up with. But no matter. Range Rover? Check. Car park? Check. Eventual collapse? Check. Conclusion: If the three things above are true, the time to collapse will be roughly the same.

Is that how it works?

The expected rate of fire spread might be well known (or maybe it isn't), but it isn't known by you, Vixen.

I don't know how long the fire lasted in Liverpool. The one in Luton took around two hours or so before the collapse. How long in Liverpool?

Foster Zygote · 11th November 2023, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

AIUI It was one and a half hours to the floor collapsing.

You didn't address anything I asked, or any points I made.

Do you think that video shows a single, electric powered vehicle melting through the floor of the garage?

Why won't you acknowledge the NHTSA report finding that EVs and hybrid fires are no more intense than gasoline and diesel vehicle fires?

JayUtah · 11th November 2023, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

The spread of fire is quite predictable.

No.

There was a considerable amount of study done on this in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.

JayUtah · 11th November 2023, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Learn to spot fake from authentic.

Armchair detectives are worse than useless.

Foster Zygote · 11th November 2023, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Learn to spot fake from authentic.

Like when someone say, "In my expert opinion as someone who used to work the ticket booth in a parking garage back in the '90s..."?

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

I've only done one motor vehicle conversion. It was a 1917 Ford Model T we bought for use in the theater (Ragtime). We removed the gasoline engine altogether and sold it to a restorer. We then connected a 4 h.p. DC electric motor directly to the drive shaft and powered it with a mess of 12-volt regular car batteries stashed in the (now largely empty) engine compartment. Not strictly street legal, and never caught fire.

Did you do something to keep the engine noise?

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

DAILY TELEGRAPH calls it 'one car'.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSZUBvdo1bw

So what? 1,400 vehicles burned. A quarter-kilotonne of plastic fuel.

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Here we have someone who believes in obviously fake news and has the temerity to claim they have 'drivel' detectors.

We're still waiting for you to prove the fire started in anything other than a diesel....

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Dodgy site. Try to copy and paste the text, it takes you to unasked for adverts.

And yet it took me mere seconds to find a site carrying the story without such.....

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

But the link to your car registration isn't.

Mere facts....

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Nobody has claimed a link to 'national security'. What a weird thing to say.

The straw blower was in action.

GlennB · 11th November 2023, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

And yet it took me mere seconds to find a site carrying the story without such.....

Ditto. Vixen posted the screen shot in order to leave out vital information. Pitiful.

catsmate · 11th November 2023, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Ditto. Vixen posted the screen shot in order to leave out vital information. Pitiful.

Indeed, not even a good attempt at deception.

JayUtah · 11th November 2023, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Did you do something to keep the engine noise?

We just had the actor playing Colehouse go "Pbpbpbpbpbp..." with his lips.

All seriousness aside, we experimented with a sound module and speakers, but in the end we had engine noises in the sound mix. This was back in the early 2000s and we didn't have a reliable way to operate the sound module remotely.

P.J. Denyer · 11th November 2023, 09:12 AM

I heard about a house that burned down from a lit cigarette. Cover up sheeple! We all know that cigarettes don't burn hot enough to gut an entire house. Maybe it was an eCigarette and the government's suppressing it?

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

One and a half hours after what point, and based on what evidence?

When so many cars had been ablaze for so long what made you decide you knew exactly which car from floor 3 was shown falling through a collapsing floor in a video that may well be a camera on the ground floor?

Rhetorical question of course: you just made it up. You made up a story in your head and that became the truth for you and how dare these fools challenge it?

This thread is a low ebb.

The Fire Brigade called major incident 21:38 as the time the fire could not be contained. The date and time-stamped CCTV video of the floor collapsing was reported by reporters as being 'about 23:30'. But see Mr. O'Reardon's authenticated video, which he tweeted at 23:15 10 October time-stamped by X/Twitter, so it was even earlier than that. That makes it closer to one and a half hours than two hours. The initial fire was first reported 20:47. 10 October.

Take a moment to think about how incredibly fast all of this was, when Liverpool ECHO Fire took two hours before it was declared uncontrollable.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

After one diesel car caught alight, and then the fire spread to other cars...

Read the captions which DAILY TELEGRAPH itself notated over the video.

JayUtah · 11th November 2023, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Take a moment to think about how incredibly fast all of this was, when Liverpool ECHO Fire took two hours before it was declared uncontrollable.

I've taken several decades to consider such things. You are not the teacher. You're frantically waving your ignorant hands trying to make enough hay to get attention. Armchair detectives are worse than useless.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I still would like to see their filled in insurance form. "Please list other vehicles involved in the claim", "Please list the damage to the other vehicles involved in the incident".

If the urban myth turns out to be true and the owner is a toff who could afford a £100,000 personalized number plate and who expected airport staff to deal with his smouldering car whilst he raced off to his flight for his 'urgent meeting', then think of his face when he is hit with the bill for 1,400 cars, his insurers covering the first £2m Public cover maximum. As I recall, the Cork fire bill came to claims of over €30m and that was only 60 vehicles destroyed, plus damage to a shopping centre. Add up the Luton fire and we are seeing £20m building costs (built by Buckinghamshire Construction, which went bust a couple of years ago) plus, plus, plus +++. This urban myth guy, if he is wealthy won't be wealthy for much longer. If he is on benefits, he could pay it off at £1 a week by arrangement with his creditors and DWP Universal Credit.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

You think that online AI can match a scene so well in a video? Maybe a professional job can do well, but a low number of followers suggests he's not a pro troll.

I could be wrong, but your list of discrepancies suggests that you are quick to dismiss evidence that doesn't suit you.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

No media has used it AFAIAA, whilst the back view has been published extensively, including the BBC.

GlennB · 11th November 2023, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Read the captions which DAILY TELEGRAPH itself notated over the video.

"Video footage has emerged apparently showing the moment a multi-storey car park at Luton Airport partially collapsed after a diesel car caught fire before spreading to other vehicles.

CCTV captured from inside the terminal car park appears to show the ceiling crashing to the ground after one car caught alight on Tuesday night.

The Telegraph has spoken to multiple airport workers who say the footage, which is dated on Tuesday, is accurate."

link (The Global Herald, stating it's The Telegraph's original words)

Is that what you mean?

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

Again, you are missing the point. They could have said nothing about whether it was vehicle fault, driver fault or intentional. If they're trying to avoid casting attention on the manufacturer, this would be the thing to do. If they're willing to bend the truth, either of the other two causes would serve a purpose.

If the arrest announcement was intended to distract attention away from the vehicle, then they purposely undercut its affect by blaming vehicle fault in the same press conference.

It doesn't matter whether the phrase "vehicle fault" is vague or precise. It has the opposite effect of what you claim they desired.

'Vehicle fault' is just a platitudinous variation of 'it appears accidental, at this stage'.

This means from what witnesses have reported this is what it appears to be at first sight. The Fire Brigade still have to investigate properly and bring out a Fire Report into the blaze, this time based on solid fact and not initial speculation.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

So, it is your opinion that if there are two car park fires that began with the same make of vehicle and both lead to a collapse of the car park, then the length of time from ignition of the fire to the collapse will be roughly the same? If it varies by too much, then the two initial vehicles cannot be the same?

We haven't heard whether the two car parks had the same density of vehicles, how many vehicles were close to the initial vehicle and other details of vehicle placement. You and I don't know about differences in construction of the car park, whether the effects of ventilation were similar and I'm sure a million details that I'm just too ignorant to come up with. But no matter. Range Rover? Check. Car park? Check. Eventual collapse? Check. Conclusion: If the three things above are true, the time to collapse will be roughly the same.

Is that how it works?

The expected rate of fire spread might be well known (or maybe it isn't), but it isn't known by you, Vixen.

I don't know how long the fire lasted in Liverpool. The one in Luton took around two hours or so before the collapse. How long in Liverpool?

If anything, the Liverpool ECHO fire should have been far faster ceteris paribus as despite being classed as an open-sided car park, its sheer floor area gave it the effect of being semi-closed (thus having a detrimental effect on the speed of fire spreading) as is explained in the Merseyside Fire Brigade's report. Fire chiefs said this was the worst car park fire they had seen.

The Luton car park fire spread twice as fast (51 minutes from first alarm to major incident) as the Liverpool one (almost two hours before firemen had to retreat from the building, when it spread to the next floor up).

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

You didn't address anything I asked, or any points I made.

Do you think that video shows a single, electric powered vehicle melting through the floor of the garage?

Why won't you acknowledge the NHTSA report finding that EVs and hybrid fires are no more intense than gasoline and diesel vehicle fires?

I was quoting the DAILY TELEGRAPH.

Not true. Lithium battery fires burn at a much higher temperature than petrol or diesel.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Nobody has claimed a link to 'national security'. What a weird thing to say.

YOU said it was to do with security.

Vixen · 11th November 2023, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Ditto. Vixen posted the screen shot in order to leave out vital information. Pitiful.

Did you try copying and pasting text from my link? Well, what happened? Dodgy site or not, as I said.

Judging others by your own standards again I see.

JayUtah · 11th November 2023, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

If anything...

"Because Vixen says so."

GlennB · 11th November 2023, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

YOU said it was to do with security.

Data security, personal security. National security is an entirely different matter.

11th November 2023, 03:27 AM	#361
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 30,954	Originally Posted by Vixen As I pointed out, this has nothing to do with 'national security'. Here you can ring up the national population centre and ask for anybody's address. When I worked in insolvency practice we had no problem in finding people and discovering what assets they owned via Land Registry and it was all quite legal. Nobody cares. Why do you keep mentioning it when it's totally ******* irrelevant? You cannot determine an owner's name and address via a car reg. IN THE UK except by written application to DVLA, and they will want a good, well-documented reason and are notoriously slow.
	__________________ "There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury

11th November 2023, 03:38 AM	#362
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46,390	Originally Posted by Dabop It actually worked out only about 100kg heavier than normal- and in a ute with a 1000kg payload capacity, and a 2400kg tow capacity- that 100kg is practically nothing.... Losing a cast iron diesel block, and a 75L fuel tank makes up almost all the extra battery weight... And it has a massive improvement in acceleration to boot- he can easily take on V8's with a 0-100 time of about 7 seconds- the stock 3L diesel takes about 15 seconds to to the same thing... He also gets to run basically for free (only rego and tyres etc) since 2009, where my almost identical ute (except mines 4wd) costs $10 per 100km in fuel alone... (his house is offgrid, with his solar panels recharging the ute during the day, as well as the house battery bank) I mentioned it previously but there is a good tv show all about converting cars to EV. It follows a company in Wales that specialise in it. Lots of custom engineering of mounts and adapter plates involved. https://www.vintagevoltage.tv/
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

11th November 2023, 04:16 AM	#366
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 30,954	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge One and a half hours after what point, and based on what evidence? When so many cars had been ablaze for so long what made you decide you knew exactly which car from floor 3 was shown falling through a collapsing floor in a video that may well be a camera on the ground floor? Rhetorical question of course: you just made it up. You made up a story in your head and that became the truth for you and how dare these fools challenge it? This thread is a low ebb. Hard to see how it could be anything else. There are entry barriers there and I've only ever seen those at the ground level.
	__________________ "There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury

11th November 2023, 04:35 AM	#367
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 112,595	I still would like to see their filled in insurance form. "Please list other vehicles involved in the claim", "Please list the damage to the other vehicles involved in the incident".
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th November 2023, 04:36 AM	#368
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 112,595	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross Why would you rely on a second hand source in a newspaper rather than the fire service themselves? Me! Me! Pick me!! Sophistry. Google dictionary: noun sophistry the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving. a fallacious argument. specious reasoning the use of fallacious arguments sophism casuistry quibbling equivocation fallaciousness fallacious argument sophism fallacy quibble paralogism
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th November 2023, 04:01 AM	#363
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 16,039	Originally Posted by Vixen AIUI It was one and a half hours to the floor collapsing. One and a half hours after what point, and based on what evidence? When so many cars had been ablaze for so long what made you decide you knew exactly which car from floor 3 was shown falling through a collapsing floor in a video that may well be a camera on the ground floor? Rhetorical question of course: you just made it up. You made up a story in your head and that became the truth for you and how dare these fools challenge it? This thread is a low ebb.

11th November 2023, 06:06 AM	#369
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 13,458	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross Why would you rely on a second hand source in a newspaper rather than the fire service themselves? Because conspiracies abound!!! Official statements are always worded to deceive and cover up vitally important information. Only intrepid reporters (and renowned internet sleuths ) have the fortitude to ferret out the actual details and report them accurately. Anything written in a newspaper (or blog, etc.) is true by virtue of where it is reported, and cannot be questioned.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

11th November 2023, 07:45 AM	#370
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 13,378	Originally Posted by Vixen His video was used by the worldwide press, including BBC, ITV, APF and Reuters. He confirmed it was his original and he has the copyright. Unlike the guy who claims to have the film from the front of the vehicle and the person who claims to have deciphered the number plate and identified the make and model. Learn to spot fake from authentic. You think that online AI can match a scene so well in a video? Maybe a professional job can do well, but a low number of followers suggests he's not a pro troll. I could be wrong, but your list of discrepancies suggests that you are quick to dismiss evidence that doesn't suit you. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

11th November 2023, 07:52 AM	#371
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 13,378	Originally Posted by Vixen They are just giving you bland platitudes. Within hours a fire fighter told a journalist it was probably a fuel line leak (just like the one in Liverpool). Learn to differentiate considered speculation from confirmed fact. It is clear the brand is being protected for now or it would have been named. It is only speculation it was a Range Rover. Some say it is a Tesla from its outline. Again, you are missing the point. They could have said nothing about whether it was vehicle fault, driver fault or intentional. If they're trying to avoid casting attention on the manufacturer, this would be the thing to do. If they're willing to bend the truth, either of the other two causes would serve a purpose. If the arrest announcement was intended to distract attention away from the vehicle, then they purposely undercut its affect by blaming vehicle fault in the same press conference. It doesn't matter whether the phrase "vehicle fault" is vague or precise. It has the opposite effect of what you claim they desired.

11th November 2023, 08:00 AM	#372
W.D.Clinger Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,515	Originally Posted by Vixen Learn to spot fake from authentic. This thread has given us so many opportunities to learn that skill that we should, by now, be pretty good at distinguishing fake expertise from authentic. Originally Posted by Vixen Learn to differentiate considered speculation from confirmed fact. Good idea. These are confirmed facts: Originally Posted by Andy_Ross It has been confirmed that it was a diesel car. You can read it on the official fire service website. Originally Posted by Andy_Ross It has been confirmed that it was a diesel car by the fire service. Originally Posted by Andy_Ross It has been confirmed to be a diesel car by the fire service. It was confirmed weeks ago.
W.D.Clinger Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,515

11th November 2023, 08:00 AM	#373
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 13,378	Originally Posted by Vixen The spread of fire is quite predictable. This is why fire prevention and safety measures work. When they go wrong it will be to do with human error. So, it is your opinion that if there are two car park fires that began with the same make of vehicle and both lead to a collapse of the car park, then the length of time from ignition of the fire to the collapse will be roughly the same? If it varies by too much, then the two initial vehicles cannot be the same? We haven't heard whether the two car parks had the same density of vehicles, how many vehicles were close to the initial vehicle and other details of vehicle placement. You and I don't know about differences in construction of the car park, whether the effects of ventilation were similar and I'm sure a million details that I'm just too ignorant to come up with. But no matter. Range Rover? Check. Car park? Check. Eventual collapse? Check. Conclusion: If the three things above are true, the time to collapse will be roughly the same. Is that how it works? The expected rate of fire spread might be well known (or maybe it isn't), but it isn't known by you, Vixen. I don't know how long the fire lasted in Liverpool. The one in Luton took around two hours or so before the collapse. How long in Liverpool?

11th November 2023, 08:08 AM	#374
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,271	Originally Posted by Vixen AIUI It was one and a half hours to the floor collapsing. You didn't address anything I asked, or any points I made. Do you think that video shows a single, electric powered vehicle melting through the floor of the garage? Why won't you acknowledge the NHTSA report finding that EVs and hybrid fires are no more intense than gasoline and diesel vehicle fires?
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

11th November 2023, 08:21 AM	#375
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 23,982	Originally Posted by Vixen The spread of fire is quite predictable. No. There was a considerable amount of study done on this in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.
	Last edited by JayUtah; 11th November 2023 at 08:23 AM.

11th November 2023, 08:22 AM	#376
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 23,982	Originally Posted by Vixen Learn to spot fake from authentic. Armchair detectives are worse than useless.

11th November 2023, 08:36 AM	#377
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,271	Originally Posted by Vixen Learn to spot fake from authentic. Like when someone say, "In my expert opinion as someone who used to work the ticket booth in a parking garage back in the '90s..."?
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

11th November 2023, 08:38 AM	#378
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by JayUtah I've only done one motor vehicle conversion. It was a 1917 Ford Model T we bought for use in the theater (Ragtime). We removed the gasoline engine altogether and sold it to a restorer. We then connected a 4 h.p. DC electric motor directly to the drive shaft and powered it with a mess of 12-volt regular car batteries stashed in the (now largely empty) engine compartment. Not strictly street legal, and never caught fire. Did you do something to keep the engine noise?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 08:43 AM	#380
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by Vixen Here we have someone who believes in obviously fake news and has the temerity to claim they have 'drivel' detectors. We're still waiting for you to prove the fire started in anything other than a diesel....
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 08:44 AM	#381
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by Vixen Dodgy site. Try to copy and paste the text, it takes you to unasked for adverts. And yet it took me mere seconds to find a site carrying the story without such.....
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 08:45 AM	#382
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by Mojo But the link to your car registration isn't. Mere facts....
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 08:47 AM	#383
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by GlennB Nobody has claimed a link to 'national security'. What a weird thing to say. The straw blower was in action.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 08:54 AM	#384
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 30,954	Originally Posted by catsmate And yet it took me mere seconds to find a site carrying the story without such..... Ditto. Vixen posted the screen shot in order to leave out vital information. Pitiful.
	__________________ "There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury

11th November 2023, 09:00 AM	#385
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,785	Originally Posted by GlennB Ditto. Vixen posted the screen shot in order to leave out vital information. Pitiful. Indeed, not even a good attempt at deception.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

11th November 2023, 09:10 AM	#386
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 23,982	Originally Posted by catsmate Did you do something to keep the engine noise? We just had the actor playing Colehouse go "Pbpbpbpbpbp..." with his lips. All seriousness aside, we experimented with a sound module and speakers, but in the end we had engine noises in the sound mix. This was back in the early 2000s and we didn't have a reliable way to operate the sound module remotely.

11th November 2023, 09:12 AM	#387
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,904	I heard about a house that burned down from a lit cigarette. Cover up sheeple! We all know that cigarettes don't burn hot enough to gut an entire house. Maybe it was an eCigarette and the government's suppressing it?
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,904	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

11th November 2023, 09:25 AM	#388
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge One and a half hours after what point, and based on what evidence? When so many cars had been ablaze for so long what made you decide you knew exactly which car from floor 3 was shown falling through a collapsing floor in a video that may well be a camera on the ground floor? Rhetorical question of course: you just made it up. You made up a story in your head and that became the truth for you and how dare these fools challenge it? This thread is a low ebb. The Fire Brigade called major incident 21:38 as the time the fire could not be contained. The date and time-stamped CCTV video of the floor collapsing was reported by reporters as being 'about 23:30'. But see Mr. O'Reardon's authenticated video, which he tweeted at 23:15 10 October time-stamped by X/Twitter, so it was even earlier than that. That makes it closer to one and a half hours than two hours. The initial fire was first reported 20:47. 10 October. Take a moment to think about how incredibly fast all of this was, when Liverpool ECHO Fire took two hours before it was declared uncontrollable.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig Last edited by Vixen; 11th November 2023 at 09:27 AM.

11th November 2023, 09:27 AM	#389
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by zooterkin After one diesel car caught alight, and then the fire spread to other cars... Read the captions which DAILY TELEGRAPH itself notated over the video.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 09:37 AM	#390
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 23,982	Originally Posted by Vixen Take a moment to think about how incredibly fast all of this was, when Liverpool ECHO Fire took two hours before it was declared uncontrollable. I've taken several decades to consider such things. You are not the teacher. You're frantically waving your ignorant hands trying to make enough hay to get attention. Armchair detectives are worse than useless.

11th November 2023, 09:38 AM	#391
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by Darat I still would like to see their filled in insurance form. "Please list other vehicles involved in the claim", "Please list the damage to the other vehicles involved in the incident". If the urban myth turns out to be true and the owner is a toff who could afford a £100,000 personalized number plate and who expected airport staff to deal with his smouldering car whilst he raced off to his flight for his 'urgent meeting', then think of his face when he is hit with the bill for 1,400 cars, his insurers covering the first £2m Public cover maximum. As I recall, the Cork fire bill came to claims of over €30m and that was only 60 vehicles destroyed, plus damage to a shopping centre. Add up the Luton fire and we are seeing £20m building costs (built by Buckinghamshire Construction, which went bust a couple of years ago) plus, plus, plus +++. This urban myth guy, if he is wealthy won't be wealthy for much longer. If he is on benefits, he could pay it off at £1 a week by arrangement with his creditors and DWP Universal Credit.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 09:39 AM	#392
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by phiwum You think that online AI can match a scene so well in a video? Maybe a professional job can do well, but a low number of followers suggests he's not a pro troll. I could be wrong, but your list of discrepancies suggests that you are quick to dismiss evidence that doesn't suit you. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk No media has used it AFAIAA, whilst the back view has been published extensively, including the BBC.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 09:42 AM	#393
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 30,954	Originally Posted by Vixen Read the captions which DAILY TELEGRAPH itself notated over the video. "Video footage has emerged apparently showing the moment a multi-storey car park at Luton Airport partially collapsed after a diesel car caught fire before spreading to other vehicles. CCTV captured from inside the terminal car park appears to show the ceiling crashing to the ground after one car caught alight on Tuesday night. The Telegraph has spoken to multiple airport workers who say the footage, which is dated on Tuesday, is accurate." link (The Global Herald, stating it's The Telegraph's original words) Is that what you mean?
	__________________ "There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury

11th November 2023, 09:42 AM	#394
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by phiwum Again, you are missing the point. They could have said nothing about whether it was vehicle fault, driver fault or intentional. If they're trying to avoid casting attention on the manufacturer, this would be the thing to do. If they're willing to bend the truth, either of the other two causes would serve a purpose. If the arrest announcement was intended to distract attention away from the vehicle, then they purposely undercut its affect by blaming vehicle fault in the same press conference. It doesn't matter whether the phrase "vehicle fault" is vague or precise. It has the opposite effect of what you claim they desired. 'Vehicle fault' is just a platitudinous variation of 'it appears accidental, at this stage'. This means from what witnesses have reported this is what it appears to be at first sight. The Fire Brigade still have to investigate properly and bring out a Fire Report into the blaze, this time based on solid fact and not initial speculation.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 09:49 AM	#395
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by phiwum So, it is your opinion that if there are two car park fires that began with the same make of vehicle and both lead to a collapse of the car park, then the length of time from ignition of the fire to the collapse will be roughly the same? If it varies by too much, then the two initial vehicles cannot be the same? We haven't heard whether the two car parks had the same density of vehicles, how many vehicles were close to the initial vehicle and other details of vehicle placement. You and I don't know about differences in construction of the car park, whether the effects of ventilation were similar and I'm sure a million details that I'm just too ignorant to come up with. But no matter. Range Rover? Check. Car park? Check. Eventual collapse? Check. Conclusion: If the three things above are true, the time to collapse will be roughly the same. Is that how it works? The expected rate of fire spread might be well known (or maybe it isn't), but it isn't known by you, Vixen. I don't know how long the fire lasted in Liverpool. The one in Luton took around two hours or so before the collapse. How long in Liverpool? If anything, the Liverpool ECHO fire should have been far faster ceteris paribus as despite being classed as an open-sided car park, its sheer floor area gave it the effect of being semi-closed (thus having a detrimental effect on the speed of fire spreading) as is explained in the Merseyside Fire Brigade's report. Fire chiefs said this was the worst car park fire they had seen. The Luton car park fire spread twice as fast (51 minutes from first alarm to major incident) as the Liverpool one (almost two hours before firemen had to retreat from the building, when it spread to the next floor up).
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig Last edited by Vixen; 11th November 2023 at 09:59 AM.

11th November 2023, 09:51 AM	#396
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote You didn't address anything I asked, or any points I made. Do you think that video shows a single, electric powered vehicle melting through the floor of the garage? Why won't you acknowledge the NHTSA report finding that EVs and hybrid fires are no more intense than gasoline and diesel vehicle fires? I was quoting the DAILY TELEGRAPH. Not true. Lithium battery fires burn at a much higher temperature than petrol or diesel.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 09:52 AM	#397
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by GlennB Nobody has claimed a link to 'national security'. What a weird thing to say. YOU said it was to do with security.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig

11th November 2023, 09:54 AM	#398
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 34,483	Originally Posted by GlennB Ditto. Vixen posted the screen shot in order to leave out vital information. Pitiful. Did you try copying and pasting text from my link? Well, what happened? Dodgy site or not, as I said. Judging others by your own standards again I see.
	__________________ who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig