Continuation Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[MarkCorrigan]

Still no response to me Vixen?

[Thermal]

Totally missed the opportunity to title this Part 2: From Half-Baked to Overcooked

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by GlennB

You can't in the UK. You have to jump though hoops with DVLA.

"Will a Vehicle Check show the registered keeper name?

No.

It is unlawful in the UK for us to disclose the registered keeper’s details without their permission and it’s the same for everyone else – unless you have a just cause."

link

"If you are looking to find a car owner by registration number (fixed name and address), our service is inadequate. Due to GDPR compliance, sharing car owners’ names and addresses with the public is unlawful."

link

And there are many similar links, all telling the same story.

How strange then, that in Finland you can look up a car number plate and discover not only who owns it but also the car's insurers, and also have access to their address, yet its privacy laws, like Germany's are very strict compared to the UK. People convicted of crimes are only ever named by the press in exceptional circumstances. In England you only have to step outside your front door and the press won't hesitate to name and shame you if it thinks you left a restaurant without paying your bill. Of course, in the UK, it is only the plebs that get named and their financial affairs publicised (but that's for another thread).

Which makes me wonder, is the driver of this car some kind of well known person (a two-digit number plate showing at the rear ['MH?']) so that's why the press are being shall we say, discreet. Money talks. Slap on bail conditions and that shuts down gossip for at least six months until the fire report and even then it'll not focus on Car Zero.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Totally missed the opportunity to title this Part 2: From Half-Baked to Overcooked

How about 'Thermal Runaway Fights Back'?

[theprestige]

I love watching a CT get more and more baroque in real time.

Now Vixen is asking us to consider the possibility that criminals cloned the plates of a diesel SUV, slapped them on a hybrid SUV, and used it to start a fire in a car park, all to... shore up public confidence in the Prime Minister's wife's company's hybrid SUV manufacturing business?

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by Vixen

How strange then, that in Finland you can look up a car number plate and discover not only who owns it but also the car's insurers, and also have access to their address, yet its privacy laws, like Germany's are very strict compared to the UK. People convicted of crimes are only ever named by the press in exceptional circumstances...

It happened in the UK. UK data protection laws apply. Procedures in other countries are utterly irrelevant.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

How about 'Thermal Runaway Fights Back'?

Quick sidebar, if you have a minute.

Vixen, I know you get ridden hard by posters here. I feel you. But... there's really nothing here. A car caught fire and went out of control. It has been identified as a diesel. You could speculate that it was reeeeeeally powered by a Flux Capacitor or Dark Matter fusion or whatever, but that's not what happened, so... kind of pointless flogging of ye Olde deceased equestrian this point? No?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Still no response to me Vixen?

You can google the requirements very easily.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I love watching a CT get more and more baroque in real time.

Now Vixen is asking us to consider the possibility that criminals cloned the plates of a diesel SUV, slapped them on a hybrid SUV, and used it to start a fire in a car park, all to... shore up public confidence in the Prime Minister's wife's company's hybrid SUV manufacturing business?

All in your mind. Imagine you are a senior detective. A public building - an airport car park which is very near the airport lounge - burns to the ground surprisingly rapidly (as compared to similar historical fires). A member of public might shrug and say, it must have been accidental. Car fires happen all the time. Your job is not to shrug. You will have been trained to have a suspicious mind. You'll consider - it being an airport - an act of would-be terrorism (explosives went off too soon?)? a bunch of bored kids playing with matches who thought it would be a laugh? an anti-social arsonist (pyromania is a recognised personality disorder)? You can't just take it for granted it was 'just an accident being a vehicle fault' because the awfully nice driver has assured you so. To be worth your pay grade you would want to get that car in for forensic examination and that would involve getting its VIN. This cannot be done whilst the building is still burning and in time for the one and only press release by the Fire Officer.

There is no conspiracy theory other than those in your own mind.

ETA: The Prime Minister's wife certainly managed to get her hands on Covid money and one of her educational outlets successfully tendered, not to mention getting non-dom taxed so she didn't actually pay tax that her husband then was supposed to collect. All above board but don't claim it is not possible!

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Quick sidebar, if you have a minute.

Vixen, I know you get ridden hard by posters here. I feel you. But... there's really nothing here. A car caught fire and went out of control. It has been identified as a diesel. You could speculate that it was reeeeeeally powered by a Flux Capacitor or Dark Matter fusion or whatever, but that's not what happened, so... kind of pointless flogging of ye Olde deceased equestrian this point? No?

Citation please.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Citation please.

...of....?

Eta: or are you asking me to cite you for beating the dead horse?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Thermal

...of....?

Eta: or are you asking me to cite you for beating the dead horse?

Confirmation that it is a dead horse in your view, when the investigation is still continuing. It is not even sure if Car Zero has even been recovered yet, or ever will be. The Liverpool ECHO car park at King's Dock, was demolished with some cars still in it. At least those firemen had the chance to see what was happening from the stairwells to have a good idea of the cause.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

So now the VIN plates were faked too?

Hasn't been retrieved AFAIAA.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Confirmation that it is a dead horse in your view, when the investigation is still continuing. It is not even sure if Car Zero has even been recovered yet, or ever will be. The Liverpool ECHO car park at King's Dock, was demolished with some cars still in it. At least those firemen had the chance to see what was happening from the stairwells to have a good idea of the cause.

Mr Fireman identified the diesel Rover as the point of origin. There are some pics which back this up photographically. Burning Rover and all that.

Yes, the investigation may go on and they discover that a previously unknown terrorist cel called Al-Jagwa actually had a bomb made of lithium batteries that caused it. Let's wait and see? Because without actual facts, we don't seem to be getting anywhere with your thrice removed Google investigation from afar.

I'm happy to give the Fire Investigators the benefit of the doubt that they aren't clandestine agents of alternative fuel coverups for the time being.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The lack of black sooty smoke is another question.

Here's some diesel burning. Where's the black sooty smoke?

[Vixen]

News update: LBC Radio have been chatting to members of the fire brigade union, who claim the building should have been able to withstand a fire for at least 15 minutes but despite their arriving within eight minutes, they could not contain it.

Quote:

The Fire Brigades Union described Luton as an "accident waiting to happen", and slammed the government and developers for failing to learn lessons from the 2017 New Year's Eve blaze, after Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service (MFRS) said it could have been stopped if sprinklers had been fitted in the building. They said it would have given crews a "much better" chance of limiting the damage.

Concerns were also raised about the structure of Liverpool car park because it's design should have been able to withstand fire for 15 minutes. MFRS said despite crews attending within eight minutes of the alarm, the flames spread so quickly they were not able to control the blaze. Luton Airport's terminal two car park was the same type of exposed-steelwork design.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/ministers...car-park-fire/

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Here's some diesel burning. Where's the black sooty smoke?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=13848

Removed by photoshop, obviously. Just another small part of the vast conspiracy.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Mr Fireman identified the diesel Rover as the point of origin. There are some pics which back this up photographically. Burning Rover and all that.

Yes, the investigation may go on and they discover that a previously unknown terrorist cel called Al-Jagwa actually had a bomb made of lithium batteries that caused it. Let's wait and see? Because without actual facts, we don't seem to be getting anywhere with your thrice removed Google investigation from afar.

I'm happy to give the Fire Investigators the benefit of the doubt that they aren't clandestine agents of alternative fuel coverups for the time being.

People have identified the vehicle varyingly as a Range Rover Evoque or even a Tesla. Why is it more important that it is a Range Rover Sport, 2014, when the Fire Brigade and police have not given you this information? Why the need to believe some random person on Twitter with 480 followers.

You can treat it as a conspiracy theory if you like, but I for one shall continue to treat it as current affairs. I do not accept your claim that the case is closed.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

News update: LBC Radio have been chatting to members of the fire brigade union, who claim the building should have been able to withstand a fire for at least 15 minutes but despite their arriving within eight minutes, they could not contain it.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/ministers...car-park-fire/

And NYC's Twin Towers were designed to be hit by planes and stand. The best engineered designs sometimes fail due to a variety of field factors.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Here's some diesel burning. Where's the black sooty smoke?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=13848

I refer you to Foster Zygote's numerous videos of burning diesel-only vehicles.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Haha. The only way the police or fire brigade can identify the vehicle for sure is via its VIN.


You do know that number plate cloning and faked number plates are relatively common in the criminal world.? The anti-ULEZ guys have been encouraging people to do this recently.

So if an entire public use building burns down within three-quarters of an hour and you are the Old Bill do you really take a car number plate at face value without further enquiry? Where is your famous suspicion of a criminal offence and need to verify the correct vehicle number zero?

Except the vehicle, a diesel Range Rover, has been identified as has it's owner.....


And over her it's a Chassis Number, adhering to ISO 3779.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Thermal

And NYC's Twin Towers were designed to be hit by planes and stand. The best engineered designs sometimes fail due to a variety of field factors.

I am sure that may be true but for now we have to await the Fire Report into the Luton car park fire.

I am not sure why there is a need for helpless acceptance of unconfirmed information. This is how countries like Iran, Russia and China manage to instill complete censorship on its citizens; the fear of asking questions and showing natural curiosity.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

People have identified the vehicle varyingly as a Range Rover Evoque or even a Tesla. Why is it more important that it is a Range Rover Sport, 2014, when the Fire Brigade and police have not given you this information? Why the need to believe some random person on Twitter with 480 followers.

You can treat it as a conspiracy theory if you like, but I for one shall continue to treat it as current affairs. I do not accept your claim that the case is closed.

As I said quite clearly, it's not closed. But that doesn't mean the door is wide open for kooky conspiracy theories. So far, to the best of our knowledge, a diesel Rover caught fire and started the chain reaction that turned Burny Car into Collapsy Car Park. We have no reason at all to entertain thoughts of covert clandestine conspiracies against electric vehicles or shady backyard tinkerers or Lizard People Mechanics or wherever the **** we are off to now.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I refer you to Foster Zygote's numerous videos of burning diesel-only vehicles.

Petrol-fuelled cars also emit black smoke when they burn. Plastics, rubber, fabric ...

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

All in your mind. Imagine you are a senior detective.

There's the "why." Armchair detectives are worse than useless. But some just can't help it.

[Carrot Flower King]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Which makes me wonder, is the driver of this car some kind of well known person (a two-digit number plate showing at the rear ['MH?']) so that's why the press are being shall we say, discreet. Money talks. Slap on bail conditions and that shuts down gossip for at least six months until the fire report and even then it'll not focus on Car Zero.

Or it is a normal UK plate?

My car's plate is AB 14 XYZ (obvs letters are changed), but that has been the standard pattern for many a long year, the "14" referring to the car being registered in early 2014.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

News update: LBC Radio have been chatting to members of the fire brigade union, who claim the building should have been able to withstand a fire for at least 15 minutes but despite their arriving within eight minutes, they could not contain it.

What does "withstand" mean in this context? I know several structures that can "withstand" fires indefinitely: the ones used to train firefighters in which fires are lit over and over again. The factors contributing to containing a structure fire vary widely by the type of fire and the architecture of the structure. The factors contributing to fire spread also vary greatly, but are generally dominated by the combustible load distribution. By "withstand," we engineers generally mean the structure remains standing. Egress routes may be cut off. Services such as electricity and communication may fail. The structure may be entirely engulfed in flames. But as long as it doesn't collapse, it has "withstood" the fire.

The text in question seems to have been written by the journalist and is not attributed as a quote to any of the consulted experts. As such it may be conflating two dissimilar ideas: structural endurance and rescue accessibility. When are you going to stop trusting journalists to mangle facts for you?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen;14202802[HILITE

]How strange then, that in Finland you can look up a car number plate and discover not only who owns it but also the car's insurers, and also have access to their address[/hilite], yet its privacy laws, like Germany's are very strict compared to the UK. People convicted of crimes are only ever named by the press in exceptional circumstances. In England you only have to step outside your front door and the press won't hesitate to name and shame you if it thinks you left a restaurant without paying your bill. Of course, in the UK, it is only the plebs that get named and their financial affairs publicised (but that's for another thread).

Which makes me wonder, is the driver of this car some kind of well known person (a two-digit number plate showing at the rear ['MH?']) so that's why the press are being shall we say, discreet. Money talks. Slap on bail conditions and that shuts down gossip for at least six months until the fire report and even then it'll not focus on Car Zero.

How curious, given that Traficom states that you can access:

Quote:

.....vehicle make and model, date of commissioning, date of inspection and the next inspection date, insurance details, and the name, address and city of the owner and/or holder.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Haha. The only way the police or fire brigade can identify the vehicle for sure is via its VIN.


You do know that number plate cloning and faked number plates are relatively common in the criminal world.? The anti-ULEZ guys have been encouraging people to do this recently.

So if an entire public use building burns down within three-quarters of an hour and you are the Old Bill do you really take a car number plate at face value without further enquiry? Where is your famous suspicion of a criminal offence and need to verify the correct vehicle number zero?

Do you listen to yourself? Are you seriously proposing that the only way the police and fire service could work out if the car they have in front of them, to which they have complete access, is diesel powered is by looking it up via the number plate or VIN?

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You can google the requirements very easily.

Requirements of what?

What exactly do you think I'm asking for a response to?

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Which makes me wonder, is the driver of this car some kind of well known person (a two-digit number plate showing at the rear ['MH?']) so that's why the press are being shall we say, discreet. Money talks. Slap on bail conditions and that shuts down gossip for at least six months until the fire report and even then it'll not focus on Car Zero.

???

Do you mean MH plus 2 digits, for example MH69?

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Haha. The only way the police or fire brigade can identify the vehicle for sure is via its VIN.

You.... you don't think they could tell it has an ICE rather than lithium-ion batteries You must have a very very very low opinion of the police and fire depts.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Some people like tinkering with cars. Co-part do good business auctioning salvaged cars. I was shocked to see my written-off car in July already snapped up by some eager enthusiast.

Indeed they do. I have a little 30 year old sports car and the related owners forums have entire sections devoted to modifications to boost the original engine or to replace the original 4 cylinder with a 6 or 8 cylinder engine or a rotary engine or an EV drivetrain or in a few cases to fit a smaller and very frugal engine. And another entire section devoted to fitting this 1990s car's drivetrain into trackday kit cars or retro-cool older cars.

I also sometimes read build project threads about entirely unrelated models of car too, yet I have never ever seen anyone convert any model of car into a diesel hybrid.

The thing you discover is that, even if you do most of the work yourself, doing it right gets really expensive. So people do not buy a hobby car to modify it into another available model of the same car which they could just have bought ready-made anyway.

TL;DR The reason you can't find an example of anyone converting a diesel Range Rover into the diesel hybrid version is because nobody has done that because it's pointless.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Vixen

All in your mind. Imagine you are a senior detective. A public building - an airport car park which is very near the airport lounge - burns to the ground surprisingly rapidly (as compared to similar historical fires). A member of public might shrug and say, it must have been accidental. Car fires happen all the time. Your job is not to shrug. You will have been trained to have a suspicious mind. You'll consider - it being an airport - an act of would-be terrorism (explosives went off too soon?)? a bunch of bored kids playing with matches who thought it would be a laugh? an anti-social arsonist (pyromania is a recognised personality disorder)? You can't just take it for granted it was 'just an accident being a vehicle fault' because the awfully nice driver has assured you so. To be worth your pay grade you would want to get that car in for forensic examination and that would involve getting its VIN. This cannot be done whilst the building is still burning and in time for the one and only press release by the Fire Officer.

There is no conspiracy theory other than those in your own mind.

ETA: The Prime Minister's wife certainly managed to get her hands on Covid money and one of her educational outlets successfully tendered, not to mention getting non-dom taxed so she didn't actually pay tax that her husband then was supposed to collect. All above board but don't claim it is not possible!

So, very very true.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I am sure that may be true but for now we have to await the Fire Report into the Luton car park fire.

I am not sure why there is a need for helpless acceptance of unconfirmed information. This is how countries like Iran, Russia and China manage to instill complete censorship on its citizens; the fear of asking questions and showing natural curiosity.

There is a gaping, chasm-like maw between asking questions and spinning off to the Lunatic Fringe of vast political conspiracies and duel fuel backyard Lizard People tinkerers.

It was a big fire. OK. Unless you see some huge factor that indicates otherwise, what we know now pretty much explains things without pissing off Bobby Occam and latching on to a (ahem) boatload of assumptions, so...

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Do you listen to yourself? Are you seriously proposing that the only way the police and fire service could work out if the car they have in front of them, to which they have complete access, is diesel powered is by looking it up via the number plate or VIN?

Indeed. I would have expected that even a badly damaged engine could be identified as EV, HEV, ICE, fairly easily.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Well, he wanted me to send him the defa lead and second key, so maybe he is going to pay to fix it or fix it himself.

For a car less than 20-ish years old, the keys have value because they can be sold as a set of keys, locks, immobiliser and engine management computer. The key has a transponder chip which identifies itself to the immobiliser which lets the ECU start the car. If any part fails, the cheapest repair can be to replace the whole lot.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No, you are the one who decided it was a conspiracy.

Your OP described a conspiracy theory (highlighted below), whether you recognise it as such or not. You appeared to be simply reporting it, but now you seem to believe it.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Luton Airport Car Park No.2 was destroyed a few days ago when a Range Rover suddenly caught fire as it was driving in. Miraculously the driver managed to escape despite the rapid spread of the fire across the floors and ceiling up to the next level. Thankfully only five people were injured, mostly with smoke inhalation.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...herts-67077996

Whilst the police confirm the vehicle in question was a diesel car, there has been much speculation and arguing on social media that the car ‘must have been an EV or Hybrid’ as ‘only a lithium battery would explode like that’.

Someone else has identified the car from its number plates as being a diesel 2014 Land Rover sports model. The issue is that people do not believe that diesel is particularly combustible. Plus the flames seem to spread out from underneath the passenger side ‘indicating an EV battery issue’.

Some seem to believe that police are playing down the EV angle because they do not want to ruin the EV-car market.

For example:

“I can remember car parks exploding and bursting into flames long before electric vehicles were invented…NOT #LutonAirport” https://x.com/Iromg/status/1712093115148882169?s=20

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

How do you know the vehicle has been identified correctly?

What good reason do we have to doubt it? (I mean good reason, not the biased opinion of Mr. Wot-I-reckon on twitter.)

[JesseCuster]

I just read this entire 40+ page thread and I wish I hadn't. I did learn the following however, apparently I'm dumb because I think that I'm melting steel when I do some welding at work.

Originally Posted by Vixen

No dumber than someone who thinks applying a welding tool to solid steel will melt it.

You can melt steel within seconds with any cheap welding machine. If you're not melting steel with your "welding tool" then you're not welding steel.