Continuation Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

I just read this entire 40+ page thread and I wish I hadn't. I did learn the following however, apparently I'm dumb because I think that I'm melting steel when I do some welding at work.

Oh dear God how did I miss that one? I must be part of the conspiracy too. Where do we pick up our shill checks?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Haha. The only way the police or fire brigade can identify the vehicle for sure is via its VIN.

Would you be surprised to find they also spoke to the driver of the car and ask him if he was the registered keeper and confirmed the car's details that way?

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Would you be surprised to find they also spoke to the driver of the car and ask him if he was the registered keeper and confirmed the car's details that way?

But the guys lying cause he was paid by the PM's wife to cause the fire to make EV's look better than Diesals, but he used an EV because only EV's can cause such a fire!! SHEEPLE!!! Or... something. FSM I cannot even wrap my head around this CT.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

I just read this entire 40+ page thread and I wish I hadn't. I did learn the following however, apparently I'm dumb because I think that I'm melting steel when I do some welding at work.

You can melt steel within seconds with any cheap welding machine. If you're not melting steel with your "welding tool" then you're not welding steel.

You might also have learned that you must be doing your welding in a laboratory

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Imagine you are a senior detective.

In your senior armchair.

Quote:

A public building - an airport car park which is very near the airport lounge - burns to the ground surprisingly rapidly (as compared to similar historical fires)...!

Fires, you say. You like to play fast and loose with your details. The time taken
for the fire to be declared a major incident gets conflated with the time for the building to collapse. And now the Liverpool fire becomes 'fires'. And becomes 'similar' based on your wot-I-reckon. And burns 'surprisingly rapidly' based on more wot-I-reckon.

I hope that armchair has fire-resistant filling by the way.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

News update: LBC Radio have been chatting to members of the fire brigade union, who claim the building should have been able to withstand a fire for at least 15 minutes but despite their arriving within eight minutes, they could not contain it.

The building withstood the fire for several hours. You seem to be mixing up some different concepts here.

[JesseCuster]

Faked photos on Twitter, Tommy Robinson and the far right, Hamas's attack on Israel, Rishi Sunak's wife's investment in some car company, patsies being arrested, etc.

These things may or may not have something to do with the car park fire.

[Carrot Flower King]

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

Faked photos on Twitter, Tommy Robinson and the far right, Hamas's attack on Israel, Rishi Sunak's wife's investment in some car company, patsies being arrested, etc.

These things may or may not have something to do with the car park fire.

Tommy Robinson DOES come from Luton, so...Know what I mean? Is it a coincidence that he hasn't been Officially Mentioned by The Fire Officer Chief and The Police? Has he ever owned a Range Land Rover Discovoque Sport with a hybrid diesel/petrol battery? Can he pronounce "Lithium"? Has he ever listened to Nirvana's Nevermind?

I'm waiting for the olanzipine to kick in...

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I refer you to Foster Zygote's numerous videos of burning diesel-only vehicles.

You really should pay closer attention. I only stipulated that the two vehicles I showed, the BMW X5 and the Audi A5, were not available as a hybrid or EV for the generations shown. Both were available with either gasoline or diesel engines, but seeing as both were from the U.S., it's far more likely that both were gasoline burners, as diesel cars account for only about 3% of autos in this country.

And before you protest that the two car fire videos don't count if they aren't also diesels, please remember that they were both presented as examples of how violently an automobile can burn. Also keep in mind that diesel releases about 18% more energy when burned than gasoline. So everything you've been absorbing from "qualified experts", such as self-professed garage and dealership employees about how "a diesel shouldn't have burned like that" is flat out wrong. Once the fire gets started (and there's plenty of flammable material throughout the car to burn fiercely) a diesel is going to burn just as intensely as a gasoline car, if not more so. Furthermore, A Li-ion battery isn't going to cause a fire any more severe than a typical gasoline or diesel car, as per the 2017 NHTSA report (which you ignored):

Originally Posted by NHTSA

The propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels.

I look forward to your attempt to link the NHTSA to the Illuminati, or the Morlock/Sleestak alliance, or whatever.

[Foster Zygote]

I'd intended to comment on this, but forgot.

Originally Posted by Vixen

No dumber than someone who thinks applying a welding tool to solid steel will melt it.

Vixen, could you please tell us how you think welding actually works?

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Most totalled cars are not snapped up by backyard enthusiasts, but by parts resale companies. The car may be worthless as a vehicle, but some parts are still functional.

Also, a car can be totalled for cosmetic damage to panels and bumpers etc that make them uneconomic to repair with new parts.
An insurance company will write it off as they will always price it for repair with new parts but a third party can repair with used parts from a breakers making it economic to do.
I know a couple of people that bought back their written off cars from the insurance company and replaced plastics and trim with parts from the breakers yard and made them good as new for a fraction of the price it would cost to do it with dealer parts and labour.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Guys and gals, please take a moment to get a grip, The video claiming to be a front view of the burning vehicle originates from some random guy on twitter with 295 followers and claiming to be a green EV enthusiast posted two days after the fire. Now the video may or may not be authentic but note, not one single news outlet has published it, which should tell you everything you need to know. A Romanian woman claimed she had filmed the vehicle before leaving it but do you not think she would claim authorship of the video and flog it around the major news agencies such as Getty Images for copyright and lucrative copyright income? In any case, even if remotely authentic:

• there is no way you can decipher the number plate, which does not match the back in number of digits.
• in the UK you can only look up a vehicle if you have the vehicle registration number!
• nobody has produced an enlargement of the said 'front number plate' proving it is indeed E10 EFL.
• if you want DVLA to give ownership details, you must write to DVLA and fill in a form.
• In addition, the vehicle in the video looks disproportionately tall compared to other vehicles nearby.

Conclusion: the claim the vehicle has been identified as a Range Rover Sport 2014 is almost 100% false information.

https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dvla




Catsmate is lying to you when he claims he has authenticated his information.

It has been confirmed that the car was a diesel.
I confirmed it by checking the official website of the fire service.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Er, first question is:

"What is the vehicle's registration number?
Registration number (number plate)"


If the number plate identified is correct, that should also give us the name and address of the owner, right?

So why is no journalist or twitter detective onto them?

No, it does not give the name and address of the owner, just the status of the car.

It has already been confirmed that it was a diesel

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

...and some twitter user calling herself 'Amy' with 480 followers claims to have looked up the DVLA details.

https://x.com/Amie_The_Runner/status...062127733?s=20

So this is where catsmate has pulled out the 'researched' information from.


Perhaps he should let the Fire Brigade know so that they can put it in their report.

It has already been confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

I just read this entire 40+ page thread and I wish I hadn't. I did learn the following however, apparently I'm dumb because I think that I'm melting steel when I do some welding at work.

You can melt steel within seconds with any cheap welding machine. If you're not melting steel with your "welding tool" then you're not welding steel.

You saw this was a Vixen thread and you read it anyway? You are either a very brave person or have entirely too much time on your hands.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

How do you know the vehicle has been identified correctly?

Anyone can insert the random number plate of a nearby Range Rover Sport and claim this is the car involved in the Luton fire.


The only persons claiming to know the vehicle registration number are a couple of random guys on twitter.

What a low bar of proof you need.

It has already been confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No, not a 'horrible security breach'. In Finland, and probably Sweden as we are like twins, privacy laws second to none*, anyone can look up a car number and find out the details of the owner, for a nominal fee. So no, it is not because of security reasons.


It is because:




...take a breath...







...the car number 'identified' is almost certainly 100% fake and the so-called front video an artificial intelligence mock-up.



*If someone is murdered, they won't even name that person (unless it is exceptional).

You can check the mot and tax status of any car online at the DVLA website.
It gives the make and model but not ownership details.

It has already been confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't say t was one or the other. I was pointing out that it hasn't been officially identified to the public. The press release is couched in qualifying disclaimers, if you care to read it carefully and most people don't.


I have an open mind. I have looked at it carefully and given the fire brigade were there within ten minutes (as confirmed) an explanation is needed as to why it could not put out a simple electric/diesel fuel fault as a matter of an ordinary everyday event. Given there are fire hydrants every X metres as per law, and the Fire brigade does have - funnily enough - range rover adapted fire suppressant vehicels designed to go into such low ceilinged places.

The owner's attempt to put out the fire with a handy fire extinguisher did not work. Two extinguishers appear to be nearby the vehicle, presumably empty.

The lack of black sooty smoke is another question.

In the Liverpool Echo fire, the Range Rover involved had been smouldering whilst parked alongside other vehicles for quite some while. When the Fire Brigade arrived in that case, it discovered two rows of about thirty cars were on fire and found to have been spread by a burning fuel line from the faulty Range Rover. This burning fuel had drained into the floors below and the fire fighters were able to stand in the car parks stairwells directing fire fighting materials at it. It was only when the fire spread TWO HOURS later that they had to withdraw from the building and call it uncontrollable.

The Luton Airport one was uncontrollable with the next level up ablaze within ten minutes and a major incident called half an hour after that. The blaze was so hot and intense, people could already hear the car windows smashing and fuel tanks exploding. A car plunged through to the lower level within two hours of the major incident announcement.

In the Liverpool Fire, there was ample time to evacuate all those - mostly horses in horse boxes - from the lower floor.

So, IMV it calls into question the claim this was a common or garden diesel car fire and it is reasonable to want to understand what make and model the car was.

It has already been confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't say t was one or the other. I was pointing out that it hasn't been officially identified to the public. The press release is couched in qualifying disclaimers, if you care to read it carefully and most people don't.


I have an open mind. I have looked at it carefully and given the fire brigade were there within ten minutes (as confirmed) an explanation is needed as to why it could not put out a simple electric/diesel fuel fault as a matter of an ordinary everyday event. Given there are fire hydrants every X metres as per law, and the Fire brigade does have - funnily enough - range rover adapted fire suppressant vehicels designed to go into such low ceilinged places.

The owner's attempt to put out the fire with a handy fire extinguisher did not work. Two extinguishers appear to be nearby the vehicle, presumably empty.

The lack of black sooty smoke is another question.

In the Liverpool Echo fire, the Range Rover involved had been smouldering whilst parked alongside other vehicles for quite some while. When the Fire Brigade arrived in that case, it discovered two rows of about thirty cars were on fire and found to have been spread by a burning fuel line from the faulty Range Rover. This burning fuel had drained into the floors below and the fire fighters were able to stand in the car parks stairwells directing fire fighting materials at it. It was only when the fire spread TWO HOURS later that they had to withdraw from the building and call it uncontrollable.

The Luton Airport one was uncontrollable with the next level up ablaze within ten minutes and a major incident called half an hour after that. The blaze was so hot and intense, people could already hear the car windows smashing and fuel tanks exploding. A car plunged through to the lower level within two hours of the major incident announcement.

In the Liverpool Fire, there was ample time to evacuate all those - mostly horses in horse boxes - from the lower floor.

So, IMV it calls into question the claim this was a common or garden diesel car fire and it is reasonable to want to understand what make and model the car was.

Vixen, do diesel hybrids put out less black, sooty smoke than diesel internal combustion engines when they are on fire? Whatever else might be burning in a hybrid, there's still roughly the same amount of diesel burning, right?

So if the lack of black smoke is an issue for the hypothesis that it is a diesel ICE vehicle, it's equally an issue for the hypothesis that it's a diesel hybrid, no?

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Confirmation that it is a dead horse in your view, when the investigation is still continuing. It is not even sure if Car Zero has even been recovered yet, or ever will be. The Liverpool ECHO car park at King's Dock, was demolished with some cars still in it. At least those firemen had the chance to see what was happening from the stairwells to have a good idea of the cause.

It has been confirmed by the fire service that it was a diesel car.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

News update: LBC Radio have been chatting to members of the fire brigade union, who claim the building should have been able to withstand a fire for at least 15 minutes but despite their arriving within eight minutes, they could not contain it.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/ministers...car-park-fire/

It has been confirmed that it started with a diesel car.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

You really should pay closer attention. I only stipulated that the two vehicles I showed, the BMW X5 and the Audi A5, were not available as a hybrid or EV for the generations shown. Both were available with either gasoline or diesel engines, but seeing as both were from the U.S., it's far more likely that both were gasoline burners, as diesel cars account for only about 3% of autos in this country.

And before you protest that the two car fire videos don't count if they aren't also diesels, please remember that they were both presented as examples of how violently an automobile can burn. Also keep in mind that diesel releases about 18% more energy when burned than gasoline. So everything you've been absorbing from "qualified experts", such as self-professed garage and dealership employees about how "a diesel shouldn't have burned like that" is flat out wrong. Once the fire gets started (and there's plenty of flammable material throughout the car to burn fiercely) a diesel is going to burn just as intensely as a gasoline car, if not more so. Furthermore, A Li-ion battery isn't going to cause a fire any more severe than a typical gasoline or diesel car, as per the 2017 NHTSA report (which you ignored):



I look forward to your attempt to link the NHTSA to the Illuminati, or the Morlock/Sleestak alliance, or whatever.

I blame the Demoreans. Did anyone see an odd four-armed person behaving suspiciously?

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

People have identified the vehicle varyingly as a Range Rover Evoque or even a Tesla. Why is it more important that it is a Range Rover Sport, 2014, when the Fire Brigade and police have not given you this information? Why the need to believe some random person on Twitter with 480 followers.

You can treat it as a conspiracy theory if you like, but I for one shall continue to treat it as current affairs. I do not accept your claim that the case is closed.

Nobody has said the case is closed.

What has been said is that it started with a diesel car, this has been confirmed by the fire service.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I refer you to Foster Zygote's numerous videos of burning diesel-only vehicles.

But there is more burning than just diesel fuel.
The actual fuel load is a small part of the total mass of flammable material in a modern car.
This has been gone over in the thread already. You keep ignoring it for some reason.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Vixen

News update: LBC Radio have been chatting to members of the fire brigade union, who claim the building should have been able to withstand a fire for at least 15 minutes but despite their arriving within eight minutes, they could not contain it.

Quote:

The Fire Brigades Union described Luton as an "accident waiting to happen", and slammed the government and developers for failing to learn lessons from the 2017 New Year's Eve blaze, after Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service (MFRS) said it could have been stopped if sprinklers had been fitted in the building. They said it would have given crews a "much better" chance of limiting the damage.

Concerns were also raised about the structure of Liverpool car park because it's design should have been able to withstand fire for 15 minutes. MFRS said despite crews attending within eight minutes of the alarm, the flames spread so quickly they were not able to control the blaze. Luton Airport's terminal two car park was the same type of exposed-steelwork design.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/ministers...car-park-fire/

Seems to me the problem is pretty clearly identified in the highlighted. The flames spread quickly. Since the concrete doesn't catch fire, the flames must have spread to other vehicles.

I reckon that most of the immediately neighboring vehicles had ICEs. For the fire to get really out of hand, the fire must have spread from immediately neighboring vehicles to those farther away from the Range Rover (or whatever started the blaze). Thus, we must accept that a burning ICE car can spread fire to neighboring vehicles.

Consequently, we must accept that the initial vehicle could have spread the fire to adjacent vehicles even if it was a standard diesel engine. There is, to be fair, one difference between the initial vehicle and its neighbors: the neighbors were in parking spaces and hence, for the most part, closer to other vehicles. But unless you have good evidence that a car fire can spread to another vehicle only if it's within, oh, say 6 feet, then this difference is inconsequential.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

For a car less than 20-ish years old, the keys have value because they can be sold as a set of keys, locks, immobiliser and engine management computer. The key has a transponder chip which identifies itself to the immobiliser which lets the ECU start the car. If any part fails, the cheapest repair can be to replace the whole lot.

Also for example the throttle body from something like a modern Jaguar or Aston Martin is a sealed unit, if any of the sensors or pots go faulty the whole thing has to be changed, this can run in to a lot of money for a new dealer part.

For example Maserati introduced a 'fly by wire' throttle with no actual physical linkage between pedal and throttle apart from potentiometers and electrical cables. In the throttle body one of the position sensor potentiometers commonly developed a fault with the track wearing. A new sealed body unit was over £1k but a reconditioned one from a third party is only about £300.

[I Am The Scum]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

I'd intended to comment on this, but forgot.



Vixen, could you please tell us how you think welding actually works?

Step 1: Begin by spreading a thin layer of lithium-ion batteries over the joint.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

I'd intended to comment on this, but forgot.



Vixen, could you please tell us how you think welding actually works?

Ask Rosie O'Donnel.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

I just read this entire 40+ page thread and I wish I hadn't. I did learn the following however, apparently I'm dumb because I think that I'm melting steel when I do some welding at work.

You can melt steel within seconds with any cheap welding machine. If you're not melting steel with your "welding tool" then you're not welding steel.

I welded the other day with 2 car Batteries and a Coat hanger, luck now I know it didn't work, only drove the machine 2 Miles to the shop where the shop welder was.
Driving the 2 miles without steering, I just used Magic.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

Step 1: Begin by spreading a thin layer of lithium-ion batteries over the joint.

Fool ! Radioactive Caesium is the pro's preferred method.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

I'd intended to comment on this, but forgot.



Vixen, could you please tell us how you think welding actually works?

I must admit that I've seen a lot of jaw-droppingly stupid derp in this thread.

But that one...

It does have the benefit of demonstrating that the poster simply doesn't know anything about anything, but goes into full Dunning-Kruger in every post.

[Dabop]

I actually did a bit of welding only last weekend (fixing up the sides of my trailer) and I managed to melt the metal (rusty steel in this case lol) quite well- a little too well in some cases as I literally melted holes in the new sheet steel several times (blow-through) while welding in the new side panels... as my ancient stick welder really isn't the tool for the job (but I am still waiting for another spool of wire for the mig to arrive and my rego was due on the trailer)

Add welding to the (many) things Vixen has no clue about but is 'the source of all knowledge' (in her mind)

Welding indeed melts metal (outside of a lab even lol)

[ferd burfle]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Haha. The only way the police or fire brigade can identify the vehicle for sure is via its VIN.

And when the VIN is produced you will insist it needs to be accompanied by a letter certifying authenticity signed by the PM, his wife, bonnie King Chuck and cosigned by the FSM. This exercise of yours has nothing to do with establishing the truth of the matter.

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

Vixen, you really are coming across as ignorant and almost deranged in your persistence in ignoring reality, and the many corrections you have received but refused to accept.

I don't know if that is your intention, but that's how it looks.

It was a diesel car, as confirmed by the fire service.

I'm sorry to say your posts make you seem like a massive bellend.

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Indeed they do. I have a little 30 year old sports car and the related owners forums have entire sections devoted to modifications to boost the original engine or to replace the original 4 cylinder with a 6 or 8 cylinder engine or a rotary engine or an EV drivetrain or in a few cases to fit a smaller and very frugal engine. And another entire section devoted to fitting this 1990s car's drivetrain into trackday kit cars or retro-cool older cars.

I also sometimes read build project threads about entirely unrelated models of car too, yet I have never ever seen anyone convert any model of car into a diesel hybrid.

The thing you discover is that, even if you do most of the work yourself, doing it right gets really expensive. So people do not buy a hobby car to modify it into another available model of the same car which they could just have bought ready-made anyway.

TL;DR The reason you can't find an example of anyone converting a diesel Range Rover into the diesel hybrid version is because nobody has done that because it's pointless.

And then spend well over £100,000 to get a very exclusive 'MH' plate, to avoid £12 a day ULEZ. Not forgetting the owner is now very well known and can afford to 'gag' the press.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Maserati introduced a 'fly by wire' throttle with no actual physical linkage between pedal and throttle apart from potentiometers and electrical cables. In the throttle body one of the position sensor potentiometers commonly developed a fault with the track wearing. A new sealed body unit was over £1k but a reconditioned one from a third party is only about £300.

And the pot itself costs £3, right?

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Also for example the throttle body from something like a modern Jaguar or Aston Martin is a sealed unit, if any of the sensors or pots go faulty the whole thing has to be changed, this can run in to a lot of money for a new dealer part.

For example Maserati introduced a 'fly by wire' throttle with no actual physical linkage between pedal and throttle apart from potentiometers and electrical cables. In the throttle body one of the position sensor potentiometers commonly developed a fault with the track wearing. A new sealed body unit was over £1k but a reconditioned one from a third party is only about £300.

A lot of Lambo parts are interchangeable with standard VW too, making a salvage even more attractive.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by ferd burfle

And when the VIN is produced you will insist it needs to be accompanied by a letter certifying authenticity signed by the PM, his wife, bonnie King Chuck and cosigned by the FSM. This exercise of yours has nothing to do with establishing the truth of the matter.

Well I haven't seen the car's birth certificate. Maybe it is from Kenya. People are saying.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

And the pot itself costs £3, right?

Sort of, it's a carbon track that a spring tensioned 'claw' moves slong. Over time the section of track that corresponds to the most common throttle position wears away and the engine jumps suddenly in revs as you press the pedal. All the electronics are embedded in resin inside a metal case on the throttle body.
Wheeler Dealers had to get one replaced.
There's a bloke that specialises in them. He replaces it with a contactless sensor. It's done on an exchange basis, your body for a refurbished one.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Dabop]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

And the pot itself costs £3, right?

Try $2Au for a pack of 5....
:-O