Today's Republicans are not "conservatives".

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

do you have a recommendation for a conservative forum ?

If you're really serious, then a place like the Federalist Society is probably good.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If you're really serious, then a place like the Federalist Society is probably good.

I mean a discussion forum like this one

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

It's not sane, decent, or hell at the very least "wrong and horrible within normal parameters" people's job to make room for conservatives at the table anymore.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If you don't welcome people who are wrong, then you can't have any group larger than one, because everyone is wrong about something. "Wrong" is an insufficient descriptor.

See highlighted.

Quote:

You mean something more than just wrong, but I don't think you've really thought about the precise boundaries of what that constitutes, and you sure as hell aren't communicating what they are clearly.

Low key Fallacy of the beard. You know there is a major difference between 'being wrong' and what Joe is describing but you're claiming where exactly the line is as important in this case where it is not.

Quote:

But I don't think I'm making headway on this front, because you seem to be stuck on something which you're expressing very badly, and my prior posts don't seem to be really addressing what you're feeling but not saying. So let's take a different approach. Let's consider the example of a specific conservative person that I think is not a troll. Let's consider the case of Thomas Sowell.

None of the wrong things you're describing here apply to Thomas Sowell. Yet he is undoubtedly a conservative, is he not? And I'm sure you don't agree with him on a lot of issues, because if you did agree with everything he said, then you'd be a conservative too. I think Sowell is not a troll. Do you think Sowell is a troll? Do you think his beliefs are somehow beyond the pale? Do you think there's no point in engaging with someone like Sowell? Do you think he's right about anything?

I'm fairly sure none of us have met Adam Kinzinger either but we know he was driven out of being a literal representative for not falling in line with what Joe outlined.

[JoeMorgue]

I said "Proudly and openly wrong" not "wrong."

There's still plenty of honest, open agreement out there. We don't need "My entire personality is being openly wrong about something that's already been disproven a billon times" at the table.

I can already see the "Oh you just want an echo chamber" card being prepared so I'm shutting it down now.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I can't remember the last Republican I encountered who wasn't a troll. And I don't mean that as an insult but in a very literal "They only care about getting an emotional reaction out of other people by acting in a way they know will upset them" sense of the term.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

BECAUSE BEING WRONG SHOULDN'T BE WELCOMED ANYWHERE.

"I think Trump won the election and that Democrats bus brown people into voting districts to steal election and Hillary had a child sex dungeon in the basement of a pizza parlor and I'm just not welcomed here. Have you ever though about going somewhere where they believe that and talking to them?"

No. No. The thought of doing that has never crossed my mind and never will.

I so ******* sick of explaining this. I'm so sick of conservatives trying to paint "I'm going to be intentionally wrong everything and knowingly and proudly horrible to everyone" leading to them not being welcome in places as some sort of unfairness.

Being wrong putting you at a disadvantage in life isn't an unfairness.

It's not sane, decent, or hell at the very least "wrong and horrible within normal parameters" people's job to make room for conservatives at the table anymore.

The second post goes a long way to explaining the first.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I said "Proudly and openly wrong" not "wrong."

There's still plenty of honest, open agreement out there. We don't need "My entire personality is being openly wrong about something that's already been disproven a billon times" at the table.

I can already see the "Oh you just want an echo chamber" card being prepared so I'm shutting it down now.

Funny how "let's be openminded" doesn't apply here when it's flat-earthers and such. I suppose if they came in saying "the Earth is flat because of the Zionists" they'd be more welcome!

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Low key Fallacy of the beard. You know there is a major difference between 'being wrong' and what Joe is describing but you're claiming where exactly the line is as important in this case where it is not.

It's very important, because Joe is basically saying all conservatives are wrong in the extreme. And for what I consider extreme, that's not remotely true. So I have to assume that his definition of what counts as extreme is very different than mine, but I don't know how.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I mean a discussion forum like this one

Stormfront.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It's very important, because Joe is basically saying all conservatives are wrong in the extreme.

I can say it again louder if necessary.

Being wrong about simple concepts like "Who won the election" and "Racism exists" IS the Republican platform right now.

And after years of Republicans being the "**** your feelings snowflake, we won get over it, LOL are you triggered?" group they can take their calls for "Oh can't we allz just gets along" and shove it.

[The Great Zaganza]

let's put it like this:

history clearly shows that conservatives are always more wrong than progressives.

[Donal]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If you want to find thoughtful, non-trolling conservatives, Reddit isn't going to be the place to do that. No social media platform is going to be. In fact, the internet in general isn't really the place to look, if that's what you want to find. The internet is not the totality of human experience, you know. But again, you aren't obliged to go searching. Just don't kid yourself that the sampling you've done is representative. It's not.

Again, where? They literally have news networks dedicated to them. CSPAN has cameras on the floor of the House and Senate where the people conservatives elect all give their speeches. Ted Cruz can't stop advertising his podcast. Hell, there's a ton of right-wing podcasts that either are by these elected officials or interviews them regularly. But, I'm not supposed to take them seriously when they speak there. I'm not supposed to read the books or editorials they write.

I'm not supposed to pay attention to the conservatives in my life when they think they are safe and speak freely.

[Donal]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If you're really serious, then a place like the Federalist Society is probably good.

The Project 2025 people? Nifty.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Donal

The Project 2025 people? Nifty.

I checked out their site - information there flows only one-way.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

let's put it like this:

history clearly shows that conservatives are always more wrong than progressives.

It's hard to imagine conservatives more wrong than Lenin or Hitler or Mao. But go off I guess.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by theprestige

It's hard to imagine conservatives more wrong than Lenin or Hitler or Mao. But go off I guess.

and how are they progressives?

i think you are conflating things for convenience here - Capitalism vs. communism

Hitler was supported all the way by Germanys Capitalists and Conservative parties.
It was the Socialists and Communists who fought against him and got imprisoned or killed for it.

Lenin's (short) reign was rather benign, don't mix him in with Stalin.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I can say it again louder if necessary.

Being wrong about simple concepts like "Who won the election" and "Racism exists" IS the Republican platform right now.

And after years of Republicans being the "**** your feelings snowflake, we won get over it, LOL are you triggered?" group they can take their calls for "Oh can't we allz just gets along" and shove it.

OK, I get it. You need to vent, and this is the place to do it. Carry on.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

and how are they progressives?

i think you are conflating things for convenience here - Capitalism vs. communism

Hitler was supported all the way by Germanys Capitalists and Conservative parties.
It was the Socialists and Communists who fought against him and got imprisoned or killed for it.

Lenin's (short) reign was rather benign, don't mix him in with Stalin.

Hitler was also supported by corporations and conservatives in the USA until Hitler went just a little too far for their tastes.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Hitler was also supported by corporations and conservatives in the USA until Hitler went just a little too far for their tastes.

And also by those notorious lefties Lord Rothermere & the Daily Mail...

[dann]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Hitler was also supported by corporations and conservatives in the USA until Hitler went just a little too far for their tastes.

I'm not sure that's true. Some of them didn't really stop until the Japanese 'went just a little too far', i.e. Pearl Harbor. At that point, it would have meant sympathizing with the actual enemy of the USA.
Henry Ford, for instance, may have dissociated himself from Antisemitism for business reasons but appeared to remain an Antisemite nonetheless.

Quote:

A boycott against Ford products by Jews and liberal Christians also had an impact, and Ford shut down the paper in 1927, recanting his views in a public letter to Sigmund Livingston, president of the ADL." Wallace also found that Ford's apology was likely, or at least partly, motivated by a business that was slumping as a result of his antisemitism, repelling potential buyers of Ford cars. Up until the apology, a considerable number of dealers, who had been required to make sure that buyers of Ford cars received the Independent, bought up and destroyed copies of the newspaper rather than alienate customers.

Ford's 1927 apology was well received. "Four-fifths of the hundreds of letters addressed to Ford in July 1927 were from Jews, and almost without exception they praised the industrialist..." In January 1937, a Ford statement to The Detroit Jewish Chronicle disavowed "any connection whatsoever with the publication in Germany of a book known as the International Jew". Ford, however, allegedly never signed the retraction and apology, which were written by others—rather, his signature was forged by Harry Bennett—and Ford never actually recanted his antisemitic views, stating in 1940: "I hope to republish The International Jew again some time."
Henry Ford: Antisemitism and The Dearborn Independent (Wikipedia)

[thaiboxerken]

I stand corrected. With MAGA, they are reverting back to openly supporting fascism and bigotry.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

let's put it like this:

history clearly shows that conservatives are always more wrong than progressives.

No it does not. Eugenics, not a conservative movement. Prohibition, not conservative. Ice pick lobotomies, not conservative.....

What history shows is that progressives will always define things they were wrong about as being conservative.

To be clear, I don't think progressives are wrong about all things. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. Sometimes they are wrong in ways that will later be seen as evil, much like conservatives.

Currenty, progressives are wrong about Hamas and youth gender transition. They issue I have is that they have no room for the possibilty that they are wrong. So, they tell parents that their kids will kill themselves if they don't transition right now.

And to be fair not all progressives in any case with the possible exception of their certainty.

Good conservativism is profoundly uncertain. Its Chesterton's fence, why is this fence here? I don't know, lets find out before we get rid of it. And with most modern republicans and most of the modern American right, not really the case is it? They want to tear it all down and build their vision of utopia, profoundly radical rather than conservative.

These sorts of threads always remind of the research by Haidt demonstrating how Progressives understand conservatives much less than conservatives understand progressive. As far as I can tell, progressives don't have any desire to understand anyone that disagrees with them.

[The Great Zaganza]

And conservatives always assume that any progress is a slippery slope to Armageddon.

The way to find out what a fence is for is to break it reversibly and see what happens

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

and how are they progressives?

i think you are conflating things for convenience here - Capitalism vs. communism

Hitler was supported all the way by Germanys Capitalists and Conservative parties.
It was the Socialists and Communists who fought against him and got imprisoned or killed for it.

Lenin's (short) reign was rather benign, don't mix him in with Stalin.

Communism and fascism were both hailed as progress when they were first introduced. People wanted to move beyond the obvious deficiencies of capitalism and democracy, and saw in these other systems the potential to advance humanity towards something better. In a word, progress. Hitler was trying to make progress for Germany, much as Mussolini was trying to make progress for Italy. Lenin was trying to make progress for Russia and the world. Mao was trying to make progress for China. Instead, they ushered in eras of horror for people that no mere conservative could hope to equal. Winston Churchill wanted to conserve the gold standard, and famously said that democracy was the worst form of government, except for all the others that had been tried. Conservative perfidy! And he said what he said about democracy, because he had a front row seat to the other forms of government the world's leading progressives were trying.

People have done, and will continue to do, horrific things in the name of progress.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The way to find out what a fence is for is to break it reversibly and see what happens

Something progressives never actually seem interested in doing. When was the last time you saw a progressive advocate a major new public policy, that would be rolled out in increments, with clearly-defined success metrics, and built-in provisions to revert to the status quo ante if those metrics were not met?

[Venom]

Re-reading JoeMorgue's post about trolls, I initially thought he was talking about real life.

Real life I definitely encounter some weird "conservative" if we can call them that, trolls. Let's say people who follow the rightwing narrative for everything on social media. Always some random comment about who's running for office, calling people snowflakes, or some jab at California, with next to nothing substantive about it.

I hardly ever see real left-leaning people do this. I don't see them loudly and proudly announce their narrative or beliefs like the Trump chumps and their associates around me.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

And conservatives always assume that any progress is a slippery slope to Armageddon.

The way to find out what a fence is for is to break it reversibly and see what happens

Now, now! Many of them are actively HOPING for Armageddon, bringing about the second coming and the rapture!

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Venom

Re-reading JoeMorgue's post about trolls, I initially thought he was talking about real life.

Real life I definitely encounter some weird "conservative" if we can call them that, trolls. Let's say people who follow the rightwing narrative for everything on social media. Always some random comment about who's running for office, calling people snowflakes, or some jab at California, with next to nothing substantive about it.

I hardly ever see real left-leaning people do this. I don't see them loudly and proudly announce their narrative or beliefs like the Trump chumps and their associates around me.

My experience is the reverse, I almost never hear conservatives talk politics in real life. I hear all sorts of jabs regarding Trump, MAGA and what not. My in laws especially talk as though no one in the room could possible disagree with them. Except my Father-I-L, he's kind of racist, but otherwise progressive.

In San Francisco, I routinely heard things like, "You aren't a Republican are you?" Saw adds for roommate with the only requirement being, no conservatives.

My experience is no more or less valid than yours but bubbles and what not. On the other hand, if Joe talks in real life like he does on this forum, no wonder he doesn't know any conservatives that aren't trolls.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

And conservatives always assume that any progress is a slippery slope to Armageddon.

The way to find out what a fence is for is to break it reversibly and see what happens

And progressive assume the slippery slope is never a thing.

The way to find out what a fence is for is to break it and walk away, the say the bull is in your yard has nothing to do with the fence.

And the analogy has gone too far.

Edit: Its actually the perfect example of the analogy of Chesterton's fence though.
A. Destroy the fence and see what happens, repair as needed.
B. Figure out what the fence is for then destroy it as needed or not depending on what you figured out.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by ahhell

And progressive assume the slippery slope is never a thing.

The way to find out what a fence is for is to break it and walk away, the say the bull is in your yard has nothing to do with the fence.

And the analogy has gone too far.

Edit: Its actually the perfect example of the analogy of Chesterton's fence though.
A. Destroy the fence and see what happens, repair as needed.
B. Figure out what the fence is for then destroy it as needed or not depending on what you figured out.

the slippery slope NEVER IS a thing - it assumes that humans are unable to change their mind.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Low key Fallacy of the beard. You know there is a major difference between 'being wrong' and what Joe is describing but you're claiming where exactly the line is as important in this case where it is not.

And this right here is exactly why getting us to a post-fact world was so important to conservatives.

Their routine only works if there is no difference between something be wrong and something simply being unpopular.

That's why they have pushed so hard for concept like alternative facts and everything is just an opinion and intellectual standards being the exact same thing as a political bias.

That's why we're putting up with nonsense like "Well Republicans can't win in open and fair elections, so if you want open and fair elections that means you just have an anti-Republican bias."

[JoeMorgue]

Perfect example.

Jon Stewart was doing an interview with Oklahoma State Senator Nathan Dahm and every single objective fact was countered by a smug, blasé "We'll that's just your opinion" or "Well that's subjective."

Jon: "What's the leading cause of death amongst children in our country? Let me give a you a hint, it's not drag shows."
Nathan: (Insufferably smugly) "I'm presuming you're gonna say firearms.
Jon: (Visibly angry) "No I'm not going to say it like it's an opinion. That's what it IS. Firearms. More than cancer, more than car accidents."

And that's how they work now. When everything is a subjective opinion caused by having a bias and they are no actual facts then every discussion is won by the loudest and most stubborn and biggest bullies.

[Venom]

It'd be nice if everything "Republican" or "conservative" didn't revolve around TRUMP for a start.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Venom

It'd be nice if everything "Republican" or "conservative" didn't revolve around TRUMP for a start.

Yeah and it would be nice if we could talk about the "huge and growing pile of oily rags we've been keeping in the corner for years" and the "matches we kept throwing at it" without it revolving around "the fire that started because of it" but that's not how reality works.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Donal

Again, where? They literally have news networks dedicated to them. CSPAN has cameras on the floor of the House and Senate where the people conservatives elect all give their speeches. Ted Cruz can't stop advertising his podcast. Hell, there's a ton of right-wing podcasts that either are by these elected officials or interviews them regularly. But, I'm not supposed to take them seriously when they speak there. I'm not supposed to read the books or editorials they write.

I'm not supposed to pay attention to the conservatives in my life when they think they are safe and speak freely.

This is a point that needs to be stressed whenever people suggest we go to "the right forums" to what "serious-minded" conservatives really believe. The most serious face of any political movement should be the activity of the political institutions they control. The walk they walk when in power, not the talk they talk in forums. Where are the serious, consequential, non-troll conservatives in Congress? What are they doing? What legislation have they put forward, let alone passed in the last year?

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

This is a point that needs to be stressed whenever people suggest we go to "the right forums" to what "serious-minded" conservatives really believe. The most serious face of any political movement should be the activity of the political institutions they control. The walk they walk when in power, not the talk they talk in forums. Where are the serious, consequential, non-troll conservatives in Congress? What are they doing? What legislation have they put forward, let alone passed in the last year?

In fairness, 70 million conservative minded voters are left with a choice of trolls their party puts up. I mean, can you imagine being a normal person but with strongly conservative but not psycho leanings in 2016? That had to hurt.

Welcome sane rank and file conservatives. Rightly blast the Q-tips and Comet Ping Pongers and nazis. But don't put them in the same class. The Mitt Romney types are out there, they just get drowned out by the Trumpster fires

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Thermal

In fairness, 70 million conservative minded voters are left with a choice of trolls their party puts up. I mean, can you imagine being a normal person but with strongly conservative but not psycho leanings in 2016? That had to hurt.

Welcome sane rank and file conservatives. Rightly blast the Q-tips and Comet Ping Pongers and nazis. But don't put them in the same class. The Mitt Romney types are out there, they just get drowned out by the Trumpster fires

"70 million conservative minded voters" had an opportunity to pick the Republican candidate in 2016. Whom did they choose? The only choice they had? Pull the other one!

Who is polling ahead of all the other Republican Presidential candidates among conservative voters? The only viable choice they have? How many of those 70 million conservative-minded voters will vote for the orange-haired yellow dog in November 2024 even if he's wearing an orange jump suit?

I will absolutely continue to put them in the same class, as long as they continue to give the same answers to all the relevant test questions.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

"70 million conservative minded voters" had an opportunity to pick the Republican candidate in 2016. Whom did they choose? The only choice they had? Pull the other one!

Who is polling ahead of all the other Republican Presidential candidates among conservative voters? The only viable choice they have? How many of those 70 million conservative-minded voters will vote for the orange-haired yellow dog in November 2024 even if he's wearing an orange jump suit?

I will absolutely continue to put them in the same class, as long as they continue to give the same answers to all the relevant test questions.

Many were shocked that Trump won the primary in '16. The country was widely dumbfounded that he won the general. And many thought he, being not even remotely related to politics, would be a quiet little putz president. I was in all the above categories, and I've personally detested him since the '80s.

There are honest conservatives out there, even now. They don't control much, unfortunately. Their worst have clawed their way to power, as the worst often does. But slam the door in all of their faces, and you guarantee to lose the remaining sane conservatives to the Mad Dogs. The result will be your worst nightmare: Trump or Trump2. Pat yourself on the back then, screeching "I told ya so!" I want to see 2020 repeated, and the Dog put back in the kennel. Your approach will take him off the leash.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

"70 million conservative minded voters" had an opportunity to pick the Republican candidate in 2016. Whom did they choose? The only choice they had? Pull the other one!

Who is polling ahead of all the other Republican Presidential candidates among conservative voters? The only viable choice they have? How many of those 70 million conservative-minded voters will vote for the orange-haired yellow dog in November 2024 even if he's wearing an orange jump suit?

I will absolutely continue to put them in the same class, as long as they continue to give the same answers to all the relevant test questions.

I'm extremely conservative-minded. My dilemma in 2016 was that the GOP isn't very conservative-minded, and the DNC even less so. Trump's appeal to me was not that he was conservative-minded (I didn't think he was), but that, whatever his other deficiencies in common with career politicians, at least he was an outsider. Substituting a jackass from outside the political establishment for the usual establishment jackass seemed like the lesser of two evils at the time. I'm still not convinced it wasn't. My position then and now is that Donald Trump indulges in all the same corruption and and commits all the same crime as his political establishment counterparts. It's just that since he's an outsider he doesn't have the political establishment political-media complex running cover for his antics. And he's too much a jackass to run his own cover.

Anyway, this time around I'll probably voting for Biden, for two reasons. The first is that I feel the country tends to muddle along just fine, regardless of which faction controls the presidency. Most of the jackassery emanates from Congress, from both sides of the aisle.

The second reason is that I think that, unlike America, Ukraine really is in a period of crisis, that needs prompt and significant action. I think that a Democrat president is more likely to tip the scales of Congress in favor of Ukraine, and more likely to use his executive powers to help Ukraine.

---

What else am I supposed to do, as a conservative-minded voter? The only reason I vote GOP is because the DNC is explicitly not conservative-minded.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by Venom

It'd be nice if everything "Republican" or "conservative" didn't revolve around TRUMP for a start.

This is why....., todays republicans aren't conservatives. It's not about ideology at all, its a cult of personality around a narcissistic man-child. Right wing cancel culture is only concerned with one thing, are you publicly loyal to Trump.

@Reformed Offlian,

In 2016, 70 million republicans started with a choice of 15 standard Reps(all of whom progressive acted like were no different than Klansmen) and Trump. Trump got around 33% of the vote in the first three elections. So, 2/3s voted for the other guy, just different other guys. After that Trump ended up with Less than 50% of republican voters.

Then, cognitive bias hit it and they were trapped. I know he's awful but after decades of the opposition telling them that every republican was just as awful, they didn't care. I know, lefties are all, well I don't care how bad dems are, I wouldn't vote for a racist. Ok, but keep in mind, not everyone thinks racism is the worst sin. Not everyone is as certain of what constitutes racism as you. Not even lefties think hatefulness is the worst sin.

Lets be clear, Biden is clearly a racist too, but you probably voted for him. Even if you don't think he's clearly a racist, who here thinks biden was the best candidate for the presidancy and still voted for him despite you lack of love? Just maybe, some people who voted for Trump didn't especially like it, maybe they just thought he wasn't quite as bad as the other candidate.

But that will all fall on deaf ears, I'm probably a racist for not condemning everyone that voted for trump as irredeemable.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by theprestige

What else am I supposed to do, as a conservative-minded voter?

Ah the "You left me no choice, it's really your fault." excuse.

One of the biggest lie narratives people write around Trump is this one, the "Not a Trumper" Trumper, the whole B.S. that it's really the fault of Democrats or the Liberals or Biden or AOC or whoever for committing some horrible sin that's so horrible that you had no choice.

I'm still waiting on WHAT those horrible sins are that aren't A) easily disproven lies and falsehoods or B) so stupid and silly pointless rage baiting nonsense that it's insult to expect us to believe you actually care about it or C) a faux-Libertarian "I have a massively selective and selfish view of the world."

So it's either gonna be some version of either:

"I totally don't want to vote for Trump but I think he's the last chance we have against the evil liberal deep state pedophile network that doesn't actually exist"

or

"I totally wasn't gonna vote for Trump but then a liberal said we need a gender neutral Mr. Potato Head so I had no choice LOL yes really"

or

"I'd rather throw women, gays, minorities, and the poor to the wolves then get taxed on my Bitcoin deep web purchases."