Trans Women are not Women - Page 2

dann · 5th December 2017, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Just get rid of international sports competitions? OK.

Just get rid of sports competitions.

theprestige · 5th December 2017, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by dann

Just get rid of sports competitions.

Why?

BobTheCoward · 5th December 2017, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Giz

I think your version of the Olympics might be a little bloated and unwieldy.

I'd like you to run it though, as the Olympics are a bit of a bore.

Let all the groups claiming to be the Olympics select the weightlifters they reach an agreement with.

caveman1917 · 5th December 2017, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by crescent

I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage.

Probably depends on how easy it is. In the UK there's currently an initiative to amend the Gender Recognition Act to remove all conditions for getting a so-called "Gender Certificate", which basically makes it illegal for organizations or groups restricted to the gender on that certificate to refuse you for that reason.

Right now the conditions are having gender dysphoria and living as the acquired gender for at least two years. So it's unlikely someone is going to get a medical diagnosis and change their gender role merely for athletic advantage. The initiative would however remove those conditions and grants it on simple self-declaration, so it'll be more likely to see it used for athletic and other advantage.

BStrong · 5th December 2017, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys.

You'd be surprised. I've met a bunch of the top riders up to and including Freddie Spencer and they're all smaller guys. The largest pro racer I've met was Scott Russel and he was still significantly smaller than I am.

The long running joke is this: "If I was 100 lbs lighter none of you could beat me!"

mgidm86 · 5th December 2017, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

They can still compete though

They just cant do it waving a Russian flag

And when one of the top nations in the medal table says "Independent" I think 99% of people will just think "Russia did well this year"

Some may be able to compete. No flag. No anthem. They may call them "athletes from Russia".

Read about the extent that the state sponsored deceiving the IOC. 1/3 of medalists were on the list of cheaters.

There's an easy solution to this problem and it has worked well for quite some time.

Trying to medically determine if a transgender man can fairly compete with women sounds imprecise, and at best is guesswork. Ridiculous. If you were born a man then that's what you are as far as sports are concerned. Like I said, verrrry simple. if you can't deal with that, try chess.

Aber · 5th December 2017, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by crescent

I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. There have been cases of men trying to present themselves as women to gain athletic advantage, but that is not at all the same thing as being transgender, just as wearing drag to a costume party does not make a man into a transgender woman.

The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.

Quote:

Under plans being considered by ministers, adults will be able to change their birth certificates at will without a doctor’s diagnosis, while non-binary gender people will be able to record their gender as “X”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7855381.html

cullennz · 5th December 2017, 11:38 PM

Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.

Cavemonster · 6th December 2017, 12:59 AM

I actually don't really see a real issue for athletics.

We call certain sports and events "Women's" but they are actually "Female's". The reason behind having separate "men's" and "women's" athletics is based in differences of sex, not differences of gender. We happen to use gender terms because of how we have historically viewed them, but no one really disagrees that it is sex that is meant to be distinguished.

So although we call it "Women's Basketball" (or whatever sport) we actually mean "Female's Basketball" (or whatever sport). Trans women are women (gender) but they are not females (sex). So there is absolutely no contradiction in recognizing that trans women are really women but that they may be barred from competing in female designated sports.

The Atheist · 6th December 2017, 01:01 AM

While the article was about sport, its only ancillary to the subject rather than the subject. It was only up because I was too lazy to find this one: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/05...nder-students/

Originally Posted by sadhatter

I find situations like this interesting.

It shows that we are at a strange interval in equality, we are not quite at the point where we can have real frank useful discussions,we are all about being nice, but we are afraid to be reasonable for fear of being mean.

That is not showing trans people respect, that is treating them like disabled children, unable to understand to be reasonable, through no fault of their own.

Nicely put.

I don't think there's an easy answer, and I certainly don't think the answer is to state that trans women are women.

Originally Posted by Aber

The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.

Looks like I need to update my thinking to "Transitioning is a choice."

That legislation is straight-out bollocks.

Originally Posted by cullennz

Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.

Equally-stupid legislation.

The Don · 6th December 2017, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would.

If I'm part of the 0.3%, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

Hungry81 · 6th December 2017, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.

Originally Posted by Aber

The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7855381.html

Prime examples of idiots taking it too far.

Worm · 6th December 2017, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Its a pretty damn big deal in some motorsports. I've heard 1 kg is worth .03 seconds per lap on the average F1 track. Doesn't sound like much but thats just about 2 seconds over the course of a race per kilo. Most drivers are smaller than average and I've heard stories of them starving themselves leading up to a race weekend.

Their height also matters the higher the drivers head the more drag.
The heavier the car the less the drivers weight will impact performance, and that goes even more so if your mostly drafting. So its not too critical for NASCAR for example.

Interestingly, this has only fairly recently become such an issue in F1.

F1 cars have a minimum weight specification (currently 728kg). They used to actually have to work to meet this requirement by adding ballast - somewhere in the region of 150kg. The advantage of a lighter driver was that they were able to shift more weight, and hence balance the car - the centre of gravity is not so rooted in the centre of the car with the driver, and they could shift the balance where it is most needed - which varies from track to track.

These days, with larger, heaver power units and additional tech requirements, ballast is not such a major factor. F1 teams are fairly secretive but I have heard some comments that some F1 teams may well not be using ballast at all in order to minimise weight.

However, while it is a general rule of thumb that heavier=slower, the relationship between weight, power, aerodynamics and grip are complex, and it's perfectly possible for a heaver car to go faster than a lighter one if the additional weight compensates by adding more overall speed.

ponderingturtle · 6th December 2017, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Hungry81

Prime examples of idiots taking it too far.

Exactly harassing freaks like this should have special legal sanction.

Bikewer · 6th December 2017, 06:45 AM

I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards.

The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.

caveman1917 · 6th December 2017, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards.

The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.

Except that the new initiatives in the UK (and apparently Canada) are so as to remove any conditions from legal gender reassignment. So no requirements for hormone therapy, or to actually have gender dysphoria or anything at all. I would be able to just go to the city hall and get a certificate to enter women's sports without needing to change anything about myself. Under those conditions it's a bit easier to see how that might get abused.

lobosrul5 · 6th December 2017, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Worm

However, while it is a general rule of thumb that heavier=slower, the relationship between weight, power, aerodynamics and grip are complex, and it's perfectly possible for a heaver car to go faster than a lighter one if the additional weight compensates by adding more overall speed.

Sure, but having extra "dead weight" will always make a car accelerate and take corners just that bit slower. Its super important in open wheel racing on road/street courses. NASCAR where they cruise around on high banked ovals, not so much.

Its mainly the batteries that make current F1 cars so heavy and with less room for ballast.

But, back to the topic, no its not fair to let a man compete in women's sports. Its perfectly fair to allow women to race competitively.

dann · 6th December 2017, 08:28 AM

Do you know if it's a question of inertia and mass rather than weight?
I'm asking because I'm wondering about the thingies (don't know the word) that aerodynamically press down a racing car to give it more grip, i.e. make it 'heavier' without adding (significant) extra mass.

PS It just occurred to me that this has got nothing to do with the theme of this thread, sorry!

tyr_13 · 6th December 2017, 10:02 AM

By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either.

This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either).

(On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)

theprestige · 6th December 2017, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either.

This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either).

(On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)

What are you talking about?

Scootch · 6th December 2017, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

If I'm part of the 0.3%, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

Yeah but what are the chances you would be in the 0.3%?

Hungry81 · 6th December 2017, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Exactly harassing freaks like this should have special legal sanction.

Nope. Not what I said at all. They are already protected under law from harassment same as you and I.

Hurting their feelings shouldn't be illegal any more than hurting my feelings is. Which is good for you because you just did. Or should I call the police?

Hungry81 · 6th December 2017, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either.

This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either).

(On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)

And the gigantic Russian straw athelete sprints in from left field....

Damien Evans · 6th December 2017, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

I don't know if the 0.3% of trans people will really tip the balance that much, but it sure isn't fair _IF_ the trans woman has the build and hormones of a man.

Well you don't have to worry about that, because they don't.

Damien Evans · 6th December 2017, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Doesn't take a lot. One transwoman weightlifter levels the playing field for all the ciswomen weightlifters. All the records become her records. Any woman who competes in the same tournaments or championships must accept second place as her highest aspiration. Any woman who competes in events without the transwoman must accept that their first place exists in her shadow.

Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Damien Evans · 6th December 2017, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys.

Tell that to Nico Hulkenberg. He's lost out on several F1 drives due to being the biggest guy in the field.

Beerina · 6th December 2017, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

If transwomen are allowed to compete athletically as women, it will effectively exclude ciswomen from athletic competition.

We need federal legislation to carve out a special Title for genetic women so they won't be swarmed by genetic men in athletics!

Women need to be active, too! Sorry, genetic women!

theprestige · 6th December 2017, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

Tell that to Nico Hulkenberg. He's lost out on several F1 drives due to being the biggest guy in the field.

And yet riders still aren't selected like jockeys.

Brainster · 7th December 2017, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards.

The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.

Yes, but the height advantage never goes away. In some sports it isn't that big a deal, but in tennis, basketball and volleyball there is a huge advantage to being tall, and thus usually the best players are taller than average. Venus Williams is 6'1", which I am sure puts her in the top 1/1000th of all women, and would put her in the top 10% or so of men. And she's not even the tallest woman in the top 10; Sharapova's an inch taller.

Darat · 7th December 2017, 12:35 AM

Is this a real problem?

cullennz · 7th December 2017, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Is this a real problem?

If your talking transgender and female weightlifting in NZ . Yep

This is The End · 7th December 2017, 01:49 AM

I tend to look at it in these simple terms:

Sports have rules.

Womens basketball has a rule. No men.

Technically that is a sexist rule, by definition. It is discriminatory on its face. It is the price of having that sport exist in that way.

So while it is obviously also discriminatory to have a rule something like:

Womens basketball has a new rule. No transwomen.

It shouldn't really be any different than before... It again is the price of having that sport exist in that way.

I'm not really seeing how there is a "new" problem even in light of the current civil rights environment.

TubbaBlubba · 7th December 2017, 02:35 AM

Are Transwomen who have undergone hormone therapy for a few years really advantaged compared to cis-women with advantageous genetics? I guess they might have some advantage in proportions/leverage, but on balance, I really wonder.

Roboramma · 7th December 2017, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

Are Transwomen who have undergone hormone therapy for a few years really advantaged compared to cis-women with advantageous genetics? I guess they might have some advantage in proportions/leverage, but on balance, I really wonder.

As I understand (based only on listening to a doctor on a podcast) the advantage in bone density lasts for decades.

TubbaBlubba · 7th December 2017, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

As I understand (based only on listening to a doctor on a podcast) the advantage in bone density lasts for decades.

Ah, that is indeed something I failed to consider.

JJM 777 · 7th December 2017, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

Or else, next thing we have a boxer claiming to be a feather weight trapped in a heavy weight body!

Those darn genetic disorders of melabolism. Where is the fairness and equality for them?

BobTheCoward · 7th December 2017, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by cullennz

If your talking transgender and female weightlifting in NZ . Yep

Problem is a bit of a stretch.

Civet · 7th December 2017, 06:07 AM

An argument I've heard some is that it's important for transgirls to begin the biological portion of their transitions as early as possible since going through male puberty results in permanent physical changes that subsequent hormone therapy and surgeries cannot undo. That seems consistent with the position that some of the male advantages in sport simply cannot be erased using currently available medical techniques. Might be different for people who transition at a very early age.

Wolrab · 7th December 2017, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Civet

An argument I've heard some is that it's important for transgirls to begin the biological portion of their transitions as early as possible since going through male puberty results in permanent physical changes that subsequent hormone therapy and surgeries cannot undo. That seems consistent with the position that some of the male advantages in sport simply cannot be erased using currently available medical techniques. Might be different for people who transition at a very early age.

How is starting a boy or girl on hormone therapy before puberty not child abuse? There are instances of the kid changing his mind after starting. There is a reason for children not being deemed competent to make life altering decisions. If a child feels their right arm isn't theirs, should we allow an amputation?

William Parcher · 7th December 2017, 06:55 AM

Mommy, I don't want a circumcision I want that whole thing cut off and I want you to stop calling me David and I want those pills. If you don't do these things I will get a lawyer and claim child abuse. Oh, and you better give me back my shoes!

5th December 2017, 01:54 PM	#41
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,125	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Just get rid of international sports competitions? OK. Just get rid of sports competitions.
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,125	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

5th December 2017, 02:29 PM	#44
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,850	Originally Posted by crescent I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. Probably depends on how easy it is. In the UK there's currently an initiative to amend the Gender Recognition Act to remove all conditions for getting a so-called "Gender Certificate", which basically makes it illegal for organizations or groups restricted to the gender on that certificate to refuse you for that reason. Right now the conditions are having gender dysphoria and living as the acquired gender for at least two years. So it's unlikely someone is going to get a medical diagnosis and change their gender role merely for athletic advantage. The initiative would however remove those conditions and grants it on simple self-declaration, so it'll be more likely to see it used for athletic and other advantage.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,850	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

5th December 2017, 02:54 PM	#45
BStrong Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: San Francisco Posts: 12,596	Originally Posted by theprestige And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys. You'd be surprised. I've met a bunch of the top riders up to and including Freddie Spencer and they're all smaller guys. The largest pro racer I've met was Scott Russel and he was still significantly smaller than I am. The long running joke is this: "If I was 100 lbs lighter none of you could beat me!"
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5th December 2017, 10:35 PM	#46
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,932	Originally Posted by cullennz They can still compete though They just cant do it waving a Russian flag And when one of the top nations in the medal table says "Independent" I think 99% of people will just think "Russia did well this year" Some may be able to compete. No flag. No anthem. They may call them "athletes from Russia". Read about the extent that the state sponsored deceiving the IOC. 1/3 of medalists were on the list of cheaters. There's an easy solution to this problem and it has worked well for quite some time. Trying to medically determine if a transgender man can fairly compete with women sounds imprecise, and at best is guesswork. Ridiculous. If you were born a man then that's what you are as far as sports are concerned. Like I said, verrrry simple. if you can't deal with that, try chess.
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5th December 2017, 10:44 PM	#47
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,461	Originally Posted by crescent I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. There have been cases of men trying to present themselves as women to gain athletic advantage, but that is not at all the same thing as being transgender, just as wearing drag to a costume party does not make a man into a transgender woman. The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification. Quote: Under plans being considered by ministers, adults will be able to change their birth certificates at will without a doctor’s diagnosis, while non-binary gender people will be able to record their gender as “X”. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7855381.html
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,461

5th December 2017, 02:05 PM	#42
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,730	Originally Posted by dann Just get rid of sports competitions. Why?

5th December 2017, 02:08 PM	#43
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 17,998	Originally Posted by Giz I think your version of the Olympics might be a little bloated and unwieldy. I'd like you to run it though, as the Olympics are a bit of a bore. Let all the groups claiming to be the Olympics select the weightlifters they reach an agreement with.

5th December 2017, 11:38 PM	#48
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 17,490	Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day. If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary. Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.
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6th December 2017, 12:59 AM	#49
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 5,794	I actually don't really see a real issue for athletics. We call certain sports and events "Women's" but they are actually "Female's". The reason behind having separate "men's" and "women's" athletics is based in differences of sex, not differences of gender. We happen to use gender terms because of how we have historically viewed them, but no one really disagrees that it is sex that is meant to be distinguished. So although we call it "Women's Basketball" (or whatever sport) we actually mean "Female's Basketball" (or whatever sport). Trans women are women (gender) but they are not females (sex). So there is absolutely no contradiction in recognizing that trans women are really women but that they may be barred from competing in female designated sports.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 5,794	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

6th December 2017, 01:01 AM	#50
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,259	While the article was about sport, its only ancillary to the subject rather than the subject. It was only up because I was too lazy to find this one: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/05...nder-students/ Originally Posted by sadhatter I find situations like this interesting. It shows that we are at a strange interval in equality, we are not quite at the point where we can have real frank useful discussions,we are all about being nice, but we are afraid to be reasonable for fear of being mean. That is not showing trans people respect, that is treating them like disabled children, unable to understand to be reasonable, through no fault of their own. Nicely put. I don't think there's an easy answer, and I certainly don't think the answer is to state that trans women are women. Originally Posted by Aber The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification. Looks like I need to update my thinking to "Transitioning is a choice." That legislation is straight-out bollocks. Originally Posted by cullennz Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day. If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary. Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime. Equally-stupid legislation.
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6th December 2017, 01:11 AM	#51
The Don Penultimate Amazing August Co-Pither Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 27,507	Originally Posted by theprestige Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would. If I'm part of the 0.3%, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

6th December 2017, 01:46 AM	#52
Hungry81 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,279	Originally Posted by cullennz Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day. If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary. Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime. Originally Posted by Aber The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7855381.html Prime examples of idiots taking it too far.
Hungry81 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,279

6th December 2017, 02:41 AM	#53
Worm Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Dundee Posts: 3,048	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Its a pretty damn big deal in some motorsports. I've heard 1 kg is worth .03 seconds per lap on the average F1 track. Doesn't sound like much but thats just about 2 seconds over the course of a race per kilo. Most drivers are smaller than average and I've heard stories of them starving themselves leading up to a race weekend. Their height also matters the higher the drivers head the more drag. The heavier the car the less the drivers weight will impact performance, and that goes even more so if your mostly drafting. So its not too critical for NASCAR for example. Interestingly, this has only fairly recently become such an issue in F1. F1 cars have a minimum weight specification (currently 728kg). They used to actually have to work to meet this requirement by adding ballast - somewhere in the region of 150kg. The advantage of a lighter driver was that they were able to shift more weight, and hence balance the car - the centre of gravity is not so rooted in the centre of the car with the driver, and they could shift the balance where it is most needed - which varies from track to track. These days, with larger, heaver power units and additional tech requirements, ballast is not such a major factor. F1 teams are fairly secretive but I have heard some comments that some F1 teams may well not be using ballast at all in order to minimise weight. However, while it is a general rule of thumb that heavier=slower, the relationship between weight, power, aerodynamics and grip are complex, and it's perfectly possible for a heaver car to go faster than a lighter one if the additional weight compensates by adding more overall speed.
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6th December 2017, 05:09 AM	#54
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 48,312	Originally Posted by Hungry81 Prime examples of idiots taking it too far. Exactly harassing freaks like this should have special legal sanction.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

6th December 2017, 06:45 AM	#55
Bikewer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 12,593	I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards. The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.

6th December 2017, 07:00 AM	#56
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,850	Originally Posted by Bikewer I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards. The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference. Except that the new initiatives in the UK (and apparently Canada) are so as to remove any conditions from legal gender reassignment. So no requirements for hormone therapy, or to actually have gender dysphoria or anything at all. I would be able to just go to the city hall and get a certificate to enter women's sports without needing to change anything about myself. Under those conditions it's a bit easier to see how that might get abused.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,850	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

6th December 2017, 08:16 AM	#57
lobosrul5 Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 1,838	Originally Posted by Worm However, while it is a general rule of thumb that heavier=slower, the relationship between weight, power, aerodynamics and grip are complex, and it's perfectly possible for a heaver car to go faster than a lighter one if the additional weight compensates by adding more overall speed. Sure, but having extra "dead weight" will always make a car accelerate and take corners just that bit slower. Its super important in open wheel racing on road/street courses. NASCAR where they cruise around on high banked ovals, not so much. Its mainly the batteries that make current F1 cars so heavy and with less room for ballast. But, back to the topic, no its not fair to let a man compete in women's sports. Its perfectly fair to allow women to race competitively.

6th December 2017, 08:28 AM	#58
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,125	Do you know if it's a question of inertia and mass rather than weight? I'm asking because I'm wondering about the thingies (don't know the word) that aerodynamically press down a racing car to give it more grip, i.e. make it 'heavier' without adding (significant) extra mass. PS It just occurred to me that this has got nothing to do with the theme of this thread, sorry!
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,125	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 6th December 2017 at 08:31 AM.

6th December 2017, 10:02 AM	#59
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 16,047	By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either. This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either). (On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

6th December 2017, 10:33 AM	#60
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,730	Originally Posted by tyr_13 By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either. This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either). (On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.) What are you talking about?

6th December 2017, 10:56 AM	#61
Scootch Muse Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 519	Originally Posted by The Don If I'm part of the 0.3%, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. Yeah but what are the chances you would be in the 0.3%?
Scootch Muse Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 519

6th December 2017, 08:02 PM	#62
Hungry81 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,279	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Exactly harassing freaks like this should have special legal sanction. Nope. Not what I said at all. They are already protected under law from harassment same as you and I. Hurting their feelings shouldn't be illegal any more than hurting my feelings is. Which is good for you because you just did. Or should I call the police?
Hungry81 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,279

6th December 2017, 08:39 PM	#63
Hungry81 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,279	Originally Posted by tyr_13 By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either. This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either). (On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.) And the gigantic Russian straw athelete sprints in from left field....
Hungry81 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,279

6th December 2017, 11:06 PM	#64
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by Argumemnon I don't know if the 0.3% of trans people will really tip the balance that much, but it sure isn't fair _IF_ the trans woman has the build and hormones of a man. Well you don't have to worry about that, because they don't.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

6th December 2017, 11:08 PM	#65
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by theprestige Doesn't take a lot. One transwoman weightlifter levels the playing field for all the ciswomen weightlifters. All the records become her records. Any woman who competes in the same tournaments or championships must accept second place as her highest aspiration. Any woman who competes in events without the transwoman must accept that their first place exists in her shadow. Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would. Assumes facts not in evidence.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

6th December 2017, 11:10 PM	#66
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by theprestige And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys. Tell that to Nico Hulkenberg. He's lost out on several F1 drives due to being the biggest guy in the field.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

6th December 2017, 11:15 PM	#67
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 29,732	Originally Posted by theprestige If transwomen are allowed to compete athletically as women, it will effectively exclude ciswomen from athletic competition. We need federal legislation to carve out a special Title for genetic women so they won't be swarmed by genetic men in athletics! Women need to be active, too! Sorry, genetic women!
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

6th December 2017, 11:31 PM	#68
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,730	Originally Posted by Damien Evans Tell that to Nico Hulkenberg. He's lost out on several F1 drives due to being the biggest guy in the field. And yet riders still aren't selected like jockeys.

7th December 2017, 12:29 AM	#69
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 17,176	Originally Posted by Bikewer I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards. The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference. Yes, but the height advantage never goes away. In some sports it isn't that big a deal, but in tennis, basketball and volleyball there is a huge advantage to being tall, and thus usually the best players are taller than average. Venus Williams is 6'1", which I am sure puts her in the top 1/1000th of all women, and would put her in the top 10% or so of men. And she's not even the tallest woman in the top 10; Sharapova's an inch taller.
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7th December 2017, 12:35 AM	#70
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 88,469	Is this a real problem?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

7th December 2017, 01:06 AM	#71
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 17,490	Originally Posted by Darat Is this a real problem? If your talking transgender and female weightlifting in NZ . Yep
	__________________ I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

7th December 2017, 01:49 AM	#72
This is The End Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 10,814	I tend to look at it in these simple terms: Sports have rules. Womens basketball has a rule. No men. Technically that is a sexist rule, by definition. It is discriminatory on its face. It is the price of having that sport exist in that way. So while it is obviously also discriminatory to have a rule something like: Womens basketball has a new rule. No transwomen. It shouldn't really be any different than before... It again is the price of having that sport exist in that way. I'm not really seeing how there is a "new" problem even in light of the current civil rights environment.
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7th December 2017, 02:35 AM	#73
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 12,894	Are Transwomen who have undergone hormone therapy for a few years really advantaged compared to cis-women with advantageous genetics? I guess they might have some advantage in proportions/leverage, but on balance, I really wonder.
	__________________ "The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

7th December 2017, 02:54 AM	#74
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 13,187	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba Are Transwomen who have undergone hormone therapy for a few years really advantaged compared to cis-women with advantageous genetics? I guess they might have some advantage in proportions/leverage, but on balance, I really wonder. As I understand (based only on listening to a doctor on a podcast) the advantage in bone density lasts for decades.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

7th December 2017, 03:32 AM	#75
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 12,894	Originally Posted by Roboramma As I understand (based only on listening to a doctor on a podcast) the advantage in bone density lasts for decades. Ah, that is indeed something I failed to consider.
	__________________ "The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy