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#281 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,890
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I completely disagree with your characterisation of the Lancaster and what its original designed called for.
The Avro Lancaster originated from Air Ministry Specification P13/36. The "P" on the spec designation is for a "Medium" bomber (Heavy Bombers were Specification "B"NN/YY) Specifically P13/36 stated that, among other requirements, the bomber was to be twin engined, multi-role high-speed medium bomber with a maximum range of 3,000 miles for world-wide use. It was to have a single unobstructed bomb bay to allow for larger bombs when future developments allow bombs exceeding 2000lb to be constructed. Other specifications included "a light removable form of seating for the maximum number of personnel that can be accommodated within the fuselage when the aircraft is being used for reinforcing Overseas Commands", as well as the ability to be catapult launched for overweight take-offs, and the ability to carry torpedoes. Avro thought these specifications were unworkable so they submitted their own design (designated Avro679) which became the Avro Manchester. There was a problem with this aircraft, however, was that it was powered by two Rolls Royce Vulture engines that were not only grossly underpowered for the job they were expected to do, but they were also not very reliable. In 1940, Roy Chadwick, Avro's Chief Design Engineer, had been working on an updated and uprated version of the Manchester, with a grater wingspan and powered by four Rolls Royce Merlins. They were less powerful than the Vultures, but more reliable. The result was the Type 683 Manchester III, which was later renamed as the Lancaster. The way I read this, there is no way that the Lancaster was originally designed to similar specification, or for the same role as the B-17. You claim the the Lancaster was modified to do other roles, and you imply that this was not part of its original design. I disagree entirely. P13/36 called for "multi-role high-speed medium bomber with a maximum range of 3,000 miles with a single unobstructed bomb bay to allow for larger bombs". It is clear from this that the Lancaster was designed, right from the outset, to be able to be modified for other tasks; its airframe was constructed in such a way as to allow for those future modifications. I think even you would agree that the B-17 count not have been modified to carry out the Dambusters or the Tirpitz missions without extensive re-engineering of the airframe (in the case of the Dambusters its moot anyway, because the B-17 would simply not have the necessary handling characteristics to fly at 60 feet over water and drop bouncing bombs). Sources: "The RAF and Aircraft Design, 1923-1939: Air Staff Operational Requirements" by Colin Sinnot pp23, Ch6, Ch7, pp229 Lancaster: The Second World War's Greatest Bomber by Leo McKinstry https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2016/0...pecifications/ |
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"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! |
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#282 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,522
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#283 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,890
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I was scanning some of my Dad's old 35mm slides a while back, and I came across quite a few aircraft ones from various airshows in the UK. Here's one...
![]() There's the unmistakable outlines of an RAF Handley-Page Victor bomber behind and to the left (and the wingtip of a Vickers Valiant on the extreme left), and a "Skyways of London" Hawker-Siddely 748 to the right. Anyone like to have a go at guessing what the aircraft in the foreground is? |
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"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! |
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#284 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,431
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#285 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,890
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__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! |
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#286 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 22,775
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HP 115?
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#287 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,045
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HP 115
![]() Dammit, if I'd not searched for a photo to attach, I wouldn't have been scooped by the Captain. |
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#288 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,407
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The HP.115 experimental delta aircraft?
It’s a bit of a guess, but the lines seem to work out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_HP.115 Edit: Blast! Ninjas everywhere! ![]() |
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#289 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 23,792
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Well, there's one I'd never heard of! Odd looking thing.
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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#290 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,945
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#291 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,890
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Captain Swoop gets the prize.
One of the aspects (and disadvantages) of the delta wing shape is a high nose-up attitude on approach to landing, making it difficult for the pilot to see the runway. This experimental aircraft was designed to to try to mitigate this with use of a large cockpit bubble, and low sloping nose cone and a low set cockpit. |
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"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! |
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#292 | |||
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,864
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Here are a few I never saw before.
Talk about weird, a glider that was a bomber interceptor? It had twin 30 mm cannon? ![]() |
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Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management |
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#293 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 22,775
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How did the film maker know that the planes were nazis?
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#294 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,524
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Until recently, I had never heard of Aircraft One.
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#295 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,377
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Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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#296 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,524
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If I'm not mistaken that's Flyer 1
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#297 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,799
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It totally blew me away when I was stood in the Smithsonian in front of what I thought was a replica and found out it was original!
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#298 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 23,792
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Sort of original, I think. The Wrights didn't exactly preserve it in original condition, tinkerers that they were. They were also (quite rightly) on the outs with the Smithsonian for a long time. I believe the Flyer spent some years in Europe.
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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#299 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,985
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Came across this the other day. I'm sure you airplane people must have heard of the Starr Bumble Bee II.
It just looks impossible. ![]() 30 years later someone should be able to make something even smaller and more ridiculous and dangerous looking. Why haven't they? |
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"... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB |
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#300 | |||
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,864
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They have.
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Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management |
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#301 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 23,792
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Yesterday YouTube recommended a video about the Brewster Buccaneer, which was apparently thought to be WWII's worst airplane. I hadn't heard of it but it makes the hapless Buffalo sound good.
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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#302 |
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 32,895
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"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes." ![]() |
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#303 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,377
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__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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#304 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,894
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Long thread but I don't think anyone has posted the McDonnell XF-85 Goblin yet. A "parasitic" fighter meant to be carried long range in the bay of a bomber, dropped, and provide defense over target only to be recovered after:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_XF-85_Goblin The FICON project had a similar goal of extending fighter range but used more conventional fighters externally attached wingtip to wingtip of the bomber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FICON_project Both were very tricky in practice and both were terminated with the successful development of air to air refueling. |
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#305 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 23,792
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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