Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed? Part II.

[8enotto]

I didn't see a teen girl among the dignitaries in the photo ops. Is she there?

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Stout

It's because dealing with the mechanics of of what it would take "To have a 67% chance of staying below a 1.5 degrees global temperature rise – the best odds given by the [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] – the world had 420 gigatons of CO2 left to emit back on Jan. 1st, 2018. Today that figure is already down to less than 350 gigatons.

"How dare you pretend that this can be solved with just 'business as usual' and some technical solutions? With today's emissions levels, that remaining CO2 budget will be entirely gone within less than 8 1/2 years."

Is pretty freakin' scary.

Other than somebody has to do something, Thunberg doesn't have much of a message.

That's my point. Everyone wants to talk about the sizzle, not the steak. Dog and Pony shows rule the day.

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by 8enotto

I didn't see a teen girl among the dignitaries in the photo ops. Is she there?

She arrived in Lisbon this morning. It's 600km to Madrid so it will probably take most of a day to get there. She won't be there until this evening at the earliest, I'd guess.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Did I have a "compelling reason" to attend TAM in 2009? You attend a conference for many reasons - exchanging information, networking, to see speakers, to speak, meet up with friends, make new friends, and maybe to participate in a talent show in which you smash a cinder block with a sledgehammer on the chest of someone who's lying on a bed of nails.

The thesis that Greta Thunberg is doing important work and carrying an important message. Perhaps "compelling" isn't the right word. I'm trying to get across the idea that it's very important for Greta Thunberg to attend COP25, and that she'll be doing important work while she's there.

I'm not sure it makes sense to compare COP25 to TAM '09. The main attendees at COP25 are national representatives who will be negotiating the next stage of international climage change policy, with input from subject matter experts and observed by NGOs. That seems a lot more compelling than a skeptics' social event.

What is the important reason for Greta to attend? Is she a policy maker representing one of the world's nation-states? Is she a subject matter expert in the field of climate science? Is she an NGO observer? Is she the talent show?

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

She arrived in Lisbon this morning. It's 600km to Madrid so it will probably take most of a day to get there. She won't be there until this evening at the earliest, I'd guess.

Looks like she's going to spend a couple of days in Lisbon first.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by cullennz

But to be fair

I forgive them

She is currently a fashion adornment

Like being seen wearing hemp loafers,

She has done more for climate change than all of NZ.* Proud of that?

*I just made that up but have no doubt it’s true. As you simply make up most of the things you post, I’m sure you won’t mind.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Looks like she's going to spend a couple of days in Lisbon first.

Everybody knows the real business doesn't start until Day 3 of the convention. The first two days are all keynotes and cocktail parties. She probably didn't even bother packing a little black dress.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by lionking

She has done more for climate change than all of NZ.* Proud of that?

*I just made that up but have no doubt it’s true. As you simply make up most of the things you post, I’m sure you won’t mind.

Greta's fan club, ladies and gentlemen.

I'd argue that Donald Trump has done more for climate change than Greta Thunberg has.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Greta's fan club, ladies and gentlemen.

I'd argue that Donald Trump has done more for climate change than Greta Thunberg has.

Well, his support for coal has certainly helped to move climate change along at a brisk pace. Perhaps you need to choose your words a little more carefully

[lionking]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'd argue that Donald Trump has done more for climate change than Greta Thunberg has.

No doubt about that. Your hero has worsened the problem considerably.

[IsThisTheLife]

One can only hope this farce (dog and pony show as Thermal called it) is brought to an end before GT has a serious breakdown, which has got to be inevitable given the strain of maintaining this public 'persona', surely beyond the mental stamina of a sixteen year-old.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'd argue that Donald Trump has done more for climate change than Greta Thunberg has.

Greta is against climate change, not for it.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

One can only hope this farce (dog and pony show as Thermal called it) is brought to an end before GT has a serious breakdown,

What would she have a breakdown from? I don't mean to imply that you and Thermal have never been wrong, even in your agreement here, but what makes her a dog and pony show? She's living rent free in your head, and she's stimulated the conversation surrounding climate change for going on a few years now.

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

which has got to be inevitable given the strain of maintaining this public 'persona', surely beyond the mental stamina of a sixteen year-old.

Projection? It's funny that you "own goal" in almost every post. Perhaps you should realize that you just made the point that this isn't a "public persona" but who she actually is in her day-to-day life.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by plague311

What would she have a breakdown from? I don't mean to imply that you and Thermal have never been wrong, even in your agreement here, but what makes her a dog and pony show? She's living rent free in your head, and she's stimulated the conversation surrounding climate change for going on a few years now.



Projection? It's funny that you "own goal" in almost every post. Perhaps you should realize that you just made the point that this isn't a "public persona" but who she actually is in her day-to-day life.

It's been going on for months now. Critics have to make up "maybe" stories to criticize because what Ms. Thunberg actually does does not warrant much criticism.

Going back to the OP it seems that the option of "Deeply Disturbed" is off the table. All that the critics have left is their own weird obsession. Without that the thread would have died long ago.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by lionking

She has done more for climate change than all of NZ.* Proud of that?

*I just made that up but have no doubt it’s true. As you simply make up most of the things you post, I’m sure you won’t mind.

She has caused more emissions just in people flying to and from her to take her on "emmission free" jaunt than most kiwis in the last couple of months

[arthwollipot]

No-one has suggested that she is going to stop people flying just by existing.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by cullennz

She has caused more emissions just in people flying to and from her to take her on "emmission free" jaunt than most kiwis in the last couple of months

Your concern is noted.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

No-one has suggested that she is going to stop people flying just by existing.

Neither has anyone suggested she's going to stop people flying by going to COP25. So why is she going to COP25? To see the talent show? That's actually been suggested.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

: rolleyes : Your concern is noted.

Noted, but not taken seriously by anyone who claims to take Greta seriously, nor by anyone who claims to take emissions seriously.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Neither has anyone suggested she's going to stop people flying by going to COP25. So why is she going to COP25? To see the talent show? That's actually been suggested.

Obviously, she's going in order to make some speeches and try to influence people. Since, as you say, the policy makers are going to be in the room.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Obviously, she's going in order to make some speeches and try to influence people. Since, as you say, the policy makers are going to be in the room.

I think the all the eminent climate scientists there will do a better job.

But fair play. An child yelling at them might make for a welcome laugh break from the serious stuff.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by cullennz

I think the all the eminent climate scientists there will do a better job.

But fair play. An child yelling at them might make for a welcome laugh break from the serious stuff.

How do you know she's going to yell at them? Have you seen only one of her speeches and are basing your entire opinion of her on that single speech?

That's a rhetorical question. Of course you are. You still think she's acting.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

How do you know she's going to yell at them? Have you seen only one of her speeches and are basing your entire opinion of her on that single speech?

That's a rhetorical question. Of course you are. You still think she's acting.

It is another big one

And I said she was acting in that one.

She obviously wasn't acting on that panel when she froze when asked questions

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by cullennz

It is another big one

And I said she was acting in that one.

She obviously wasn't acting on that panel when she froze when asked questions

Do you think it is unusual for an autistic person to be comfortable with a prepared speech and yet have difficulty with being put on the spot for a Q&A?

There I go with my Socratic method again. No, it's not at all unusual for an autistic person to do that.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by cullennz

It is another big one

And I said she was acting in that one.

She obviously wasn't acting on that panel when she froze when asked questions

Glad to see you concede that. The number of big ones you have posted in this thread is quite remarkable.

[Stout]

She better loose it at COP25, a complete meltdown, I'm counting on it.

"People are underestimating the force of angry kids,” the Swede told a crowd of reporters and supporters as she disembarked from a white catamaran, La Vagabonde, in Portugal.

I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!

Bring it on.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Stout

She better loose it at COP25, a complete meltdown, I'm counting on it.

"People are underestimating the force of angry kids,” the Swede told a crowd of reporters and supporters as she disembarked from a white catamaran, La Vagabonde, in Portugal.

I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!

Bring it on.

I would expect most people to hope she is successful, thereby doing something positive to help reduce global warming. Wishing failure on a person who is trying to help, even if you don’t agree with their approach, displays both immaturity and jealousy. Your negativity is making you appear quite irrational.

Are you not mad as hell about global warming? Are you content to take more of it while waiting for a solution that may never happen? You attitude is about as close to denial as anyone has posted in these forums.

[Stout]

Originally Posted by Steve

I would expect most people to hope she is successful, thereby doing something positive to help reduce global warming. Wishing failure on a person who is trying to help, even if you don’t agree with their approach, displays both immaturity and jealousy. Your negativity is making you appear quite irrational.

Are you not mad as hell about global warming? Are you content to take more of it while waiting for a solution that may never happen? You attitude is about as close to denial as anyone has posted in these forums.

My dear sir, I have just provided you with a fresh quote that strongly implies that Ms. Thunberg is going to do her usual angry teenager shtick when she makes it to COP25. How you manage to interpret that as "wishing failure" is beyond me. I'll give you the immaturity thing, but the jealousy angle is kind of whacko.

I used to be mad as hell about global warming then i sort of accepted it when I cam to the realization that your average "environmentalist" isn't willing to give up one drop of their oil, isn't willing to do anything beyond wag their gums hen it comes to AGW.

Don't forget, we've had this all before ( remember An Inconvenient Truth ? ) and if you thing that AGW is somehow solvable, that we'll be able to reduce global CO2 emissions by 7.6 % annually from now until 2030, then you better jump on my anti propane patio heaters bandwagon or find a campaign of your own.

Or host a dance party, some people seem to think that's effective.

[arthwollipot]

Cynic. What do you think all those kids are going to do when they leave school? The same things their parents and grandparents did? Are they suddenly going to forget all this activism when they enter the workforce?

I feel like I've made this argument before, because I have.

I would also like to point out (again) that stuff is getting done. The United Kingdom is now producing more energy from renewables, and has been doing so for some time. So much so that they've been able to completely switch off coal generation several times, and coal now provides a single-figure percentage of the total energy generation of the kingdom.

Given these facts, there is still reason to be optimistic. It's not enough, and it's not happening fast enough, but it is happening.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Stout

My dear sir, I have just provided you with a fresh quote that strongly implies that Ms. Thunberg is going to do her usual angry teenager shtick when she makes it to COP25. How you manage to interpret that as "wishing failure" is beyond me. I'll give you the immaturity thing, but the jealousy angle is kind of whacko.

I used to be mad as hell about global warming then i sort of accepted it when I cam to the realization that your average "environmentalist" isn't willing to give up one drop of their oil, isn't willing to do anything beyond wag their gums hen it comes to AGW.

Don't forget, we've had this all before ( remember An Inconvenient Truth ? ) and if you thing that AGW is somehow solvable, that we'll be able to reduce global CO2 emissions by 7.6 % annually from now until 2030, then you better jump on my anti propane patio heaters bandwagon or find a campaign of your own.

Or host a dance party, some people seem to think that's effective.

I am not your dear sir.

“She better loose it at COP25, a complete meltdown, I’m counting on it” = counting on failure.

You have given up. That is your choice. Criticizing those who have not given up implies (a favourite word of yours when you have no facts) jealousy. That they are able to continue to pursue a goal that you have given up on.

[Stout]

Oh. so the kids are just going to give up their trips and consumer lifestyles ? They're going to bail out on a lot of the options that modern life offers to save the planet ? Yea, maybe, but yea, cynic.

I'm well aware "it's happening" in some places but it's also anti-happening in others with a net increase of AGW gasses accumulation in the atmosphere.

[arthwollipot]

It is perfectly rational to be outraged at something that is outrageous.

[Stout]

I've never claimed otherwise, just questioned whether that outrage is actually going to get anything significant done. Don't forget, there's going to be counter outrage to deal with.

Case in point. Gas powered leaf blowers. We have a local politician trying to get a ban on the things ( not the one I previously posted, this is another one ) and she's using the climate emergency as a basis for it.

Landscapers are outraged. They'll have to charge their wealthy customers more and the wealthy won't pay it. They'll never be able to work in that municipality again. Battery powered leaf blowers are too expensive and don't last long enough.

Heaven forbid they ask their customers if they can plug into their outdoor electrical outlets.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Steve

It's been going on for months now. Critics have to make up "maybe" stories to criticize because what Ms. Thunberg actually does does not warrant much criticism.

Going back to the OP it seems that the option of "Deeply Disturbed" is off the table. All that the critics have left is their own weird obsession. Without that the thread would have died long ago.

Considering they are down to calling her a witch and a time-traveller I'd say that well has run dry and they are drinking dust.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Stout

Oh. so the kids are just going to give up their trips and consumer lifestyles ? They're going to bail out on a lot of the options that modern life offers to save the planet ? Yea, maybe, but yea, cynic.

I'm well aware "it's happening" in some places but it's also anti-happening in others with a net increase of AGW gasses accumulation in the atmosphere.

Thanks for your concern. But Mann said policy is the most important factor in dealing with climate change. He didn't mention hating teenagers.

[ceptimus]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

The United Kingdom is now producing more energy from renewables.

I worked on the conversion of Lynemouth power station from burning coal to burning biomass. It was built where it is because it's on top of a coalfield, but now instead burns wood pellets made from trees cut down on the west coast of North America.

None of the fossil fuel used in the process of producing the wood pellets or transporting them thousands of miles is counted, nor the trees themselves - so the plant is officially carbon neutral. It runs flat out 24/7 providing base load, and receives a grant of one million pounds a day for so doing. It's owned by a company based in the Czech Republic.

With measures like this, our UK government is a world leader in reducing its (official measure of) carbon dioxide emissions, which amount to about 1% of total global emissions.

So our politicians keep setting targets (for after they retire) and officially move part way to meeting those targets, and meanwhile total global emissions continue to rise and the world continues to warm. You can see why Greta is mad about it, but I despair that anything useful will really be done about it before it's too late.

[Stout]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Thanks for your concern. But Mann said policy is the most important factor in dealing with climate change. He didn't mention hating teenagers.

Mann might just be a little bit stupid in his obsession with climate change deniers.

[arthwollipot]

I don't know about you, but the kids in my family have already given up some of the consumer culture. My nephew is in university studying undergraduate oceanography, and the effects that climate change is having on coral reefs, and he does not drive or fly.

It is remarkably cynical to think that the kids won't differ in their behaviour from those of us whose inaction caused the problem. It's the kids who are going to change this.

[8enotto]

I am not betting Miss Greta does much more than a show.

I am hoping the people in power worldwide start making changes in policy and not do what it appears most of them did. Sign agreements that the results will be on the shoulders of the next three people in power that follow them.
And then drag their feet knowing they won't be taken to task in 2030 or whenever. If Miss Greta can fix that, cool.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Stout

Oh. so the kids are just going to give up their trips and consumer lifestyles ? They're going to bail out on a lot of the options that modern life offers to save the planet ? Yea, maybe, but yea, cynic.

I'm well aware "it's happening" in some places but it's also anti-happening in others with a net increase of AGW gasses accumulation in the atmosphere.

What the kids are doing is demanding action by their governments. Things like being serious about renewables and getting rid of coal power stations. These things will make a massive difference to carbon emissions.

Meanwhile the move to electric cars and biofuel aircraft will continue.

As I said earlier in this thread, there’s far too much “perfect is the enemy of the good” happening in this thread. Kids aren’t becoming carbon neutral overnight? Slackers. They are doing nothing..