Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed? Part II.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

"Sort of send a message"? We're on the verge of a global catastrophe. Don't you think this merits more than a "sort of" from people like Greta, who claim to be incensed by the urgent need and lack of action?

You're continuing to complain about a vocal tic? "Sort of" carries no more meaning in this sentence than "Um" would. The technical term is a speech disfluency.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by lionking

And after that she can cure cancer.....: rolleyes :

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

She can start by explaining why she needed sailboat crew to fly over and help her sail to COP25.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You're continuing to complain about a vocal tic? "Sort of" carries no more meaning in this sentence than "Um" would.

Okay, that makes much more sense. I stand corrected, and withdraw the complaint.

What do you think of the message? Is sustainable global travel for the masses the most important problem the governments of the world should be focusing on right now?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

She can start by explaining why she needed sailboat crew to fly over and help her sail to COP25.

She's under no obligation to explain a damn thing.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Okay, that makes much more sense. I stand corrected, and withdraw the complaint.

What do you think of the message? Is sustainable global travel for the masses the most important problem the governments of the world should be focusing on right now?

It's on the list, but in my opinion not at the top.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

She can start by explaining why she needed sailboat crew to fly over and help her sail to COP25.

Explanations are lost on you

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

She's under no obligation to explain a damn thing.

True. Her decision not to explain things forms part of the basis for me not taking her seriously.

I'm under no obligation to take her seriously, and I'm starting to resent all the personal attacks and lies that keep sprouting up because I have reasons not to take her seriously.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by lionking

Explanations are lost on you

You lie:

Originally Posted by theprestige

Okay, that makes much more sense. I stand corrected, and withdraw the complaint.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

True. Her decision not to explain things forms part of the basis for me not taking her seriously.

Do you not take seriously everybody who fails to explain things to you?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Do you not take seriously everybody who fails to explain things to you?

Only if I'm supposed to take them seriously for reasons they refuse to explain.

[Childlike Empress]

Greta has used her time on the boat well and written and translated into seven foreign languages a new manifesto. Oh wait, no, Swedish is not among the eight languages it is published in.

Originally Posted by St Greta

[...] On the next two Fridays, we will again take to the streets: worldwide on November 29, and in Madrid, Santiago, and many other places on December 6 during the UN climate conference. Schoolchildren, young people, and adults all over the world will stand together, demanding that our leaders take action – not because we want them to, but because the science demands it.

That action must be powerful and wide-ranging. After all, the climate crisis is not just about the environment. It is a crisis of human rights, of justice, and of political will. Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it. We need to dismantle them all. Our political leaders can no longer shirk their responsibilities. [...]

Bolding mine. Project Syndicate on which this is published has ...

Originally Posted by wikipedia

... more than 60 authors that submit opinion commentaries on a regular or monthly basis. Periodic editorials are also published by prominent authors such as Shinzo Abe, Francis Fukuyama, Bill and Melinda Gates, Christine Lagarde, Juan Manuel Santos, George Soros, and many others.

[Skeptical Greg]

Why do I suspect she didn't write that all by herself?

[Childlike Empress]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Why do I suspect she didn't write that all by herself?

Because you hate independently minded young ladies.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Only if I'm supposed to take them seriously for reasons they refuse to explain.

Have you asked her to explain it and been declined, then?

[theprestige]

Jesus Christ.

Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it. We need to dismantle them all. Our political leaders can no longer shirk their responsibilities.

That's her message to the policy makers at COP25? "Yes, yes," says the Russian representative. "I'll go back to Moscow and get right to work on dismantling the 'colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression' upon which my nation's economy and government are founded."

I don't see anyone taking her seriously, at this point.

I mean, yes, please, let's dismantle all the colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression. But we only have about 8 years to put a hard cap on emissions and avoid a general catastrophe. Maybe we should prioritize reducing emissions, and worry about dismantling the world order later?

Though, if we did dismantle the world order, emissions would drop right off. I guess COP25 will be Greta's big test. If she can convince the world leaders to go along with this agenda, to save the planet at the expense of humanity, then I will truly recognize her as a brave campaigner.

But I predict that she won't do much at COP25, and a few weeks from now her fan club will be insulting me for daring to ask, "what exactly did Greta achieve?"

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Because you hate independently minded young ladies.

Would imagine it is less that and more the language used.

Because I agree.

Interesting incite on her thinking if she did actually write it though.

She believes racism and dudes caused climate change.

Think some one might have missed telling the kid about Queen Victoria and the Industrial Revolution.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Though, if we did dismantle the world order, emissions would drop right off. I guess COP25 will be Greta's big test. If she can convince the world leaders to go along with this agenda, to save the planet at the expense of humanity, then I will truly recognize her as a brave campaigner.

That's an impossibly high standard you have there.

[Childlike Empress]

Originally Posted by cullennz

Would imagine it is less that and more the language used.

I assumed the joke would be obvious.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

I assumed the joke would be obvious.

Sorry!

That is an embarrassing wooshed ..........(Slinks away quietly)

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Have you asked her to explain it and been declined, then?

I think the need to explain it should be obvious to her. The fact that it's not is sufficient.

The fact that her fan club takes her seriously, in the absence of such an explanation, is one reason why I find her fan club ridiculous.

Don't you think that flying across the Atlantic just to meet Greta in person is kind of a stupid reason thing to do? Doesn't it bother you that Greta plays along with this and hasn't explained it?

Doesn't it bother you that you have to fall back on "she's not obligated to explain anything"? She's supposed to be a communicator, an explainer. What would you have her tell the schoolchildren who see this news and wonder when air travel is okay and when it isn't? "I'm not obligated to explain anything"?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

That's an impossibly high standard you have there.

Bravery isn't cheap. My standard, however, is pegged directly to her latest manifesto. It is, in fact, her standard. If she's setting impossible goals for herself, that's on her, not me. Maybe she should focus on something more achievable? Like a simple hard cap on emissions at 300-something gigatons, over the next 8 years or so?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Bravery isn't cheap. My standard, however, is pegged directly to her latest manifesto. It is, in fact, her standard.

I submit to you that it is impossible for Greta to do anything that will cause you to change your opinion. Your opinion is already set and you will resist any attempt to change it that does not meet an impossible standard. You've already made up your mind.

You're just going through the motions of "setting standards" and so forth in order to justify your already-made-up mind.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I submit to you that it is impossible for Greta to do anything that will cause you to change your opinion. Your opinion is already set and you will resist any attempt to change it that does not meet an impossible standard. You've already made up your mind.

You're just going through the motions of "setting standards" and so forth in order to justify your already-made-up mind.

I noticed you didn't comment on their point

[Steve]

Originally Posted by cullennz

Would imagine it is less that and more the language used.

Because I agree.

Interesting incite on her thinking if she did actually write it though.

She believes racism and dudes caused climate change.

Think some one might have missed telling the kid about Queen Victoria and the Industrial Revolution.

Insight

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I submit to you that it is impossible for Greta to do anything that will cause you to change your opinion. Your opinion is already set and you will resist any attempt to change it that does not meet an impossible standard. You've already made up your mind.

You're just going through the motions of "setting standards" and so forth in order to justify your already-made-up mind.

Mostly I'm just reacting to stuff Greta says. For example: "Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it. We need to dismantle them all. Our political leaders can no longer shirk their responsibilities." That's her standard, not mine.

It's certainly possible for Greta to do stuff to change my opinion. My point is that she's not doing that stuff. She's doing the other thing. I keep asking for reasons to change my opinion, and none are forthcoming. Instead I get the excuse that she doesn't owe me any reasons.

And, to be fair, she's done enough weird stuff already that even if she changes her message and approach drastically from here, it probably won't change my opinion on what she's done so far, or how her fan club has behaved so far.

This really comes across as you looking for excuses to not have to explain the inexplicable.

[Stout]

Originally Posted by lomiller

Conflating carbon emission with emissions cause by burning fossil carbon is a longstanding climate denier technique. The problem is the introduction of fossil carbon into the carbon cycle that is, not the circulation of carbon that is already part of the carbon cycle.

Yes, and if we were to go with the sequester that fossil fuel generated carbon in biomass route then we'd need more trees and critters in the top meter of soil than we had before the industrial revolution.

[8enotto]

For the role Miss Greta has taken on she has to weigh every word and plan every public move she makes.

She is the leader of her cause and all eyes are on her . Every great brave act and every bumbling move. Using twatter in an unthinking manner and silly boasting of scaring adults isn't exactly helping her.

Nobody is scared of her or her cause. Everyone over 20 knows inaction and apathy will stop youthful ambitions when they aren't backed by a powerful government.
Those people choose to get behind any cause or not based on its merits. And the capability of the spokesperson to inspire them.
What she is saying isn't wrong, how she delivers that message is lacking.

Leaders don't falter publicly. They don't fall back on a defence of being a inexperienced 15 year old when they bumble.
Always display a series of actions and well thought out public statements and credibility follows.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You're just going through the motions of "setting standards" and so forth in order to justify your already-made-up mind.

There's another way to go about this. You could simply state, in plain language, the standard you think Greta should be held to, and the specific accomplishments she's accomplished to meet that standard.

I've been focusing on the 300-something megatons in 8-11 years goal for the past couple pages, since it seems to be the most concrete bit of climate policy to have come up so far. But maybe that's not fair to Greta. Maybe we need to expect something different from her.

So. What do you think the right standard for Greta's message is? How shall we agree whether she's measuring up?

Is it simply tautological? Whatever she accomplishes is what she's accomplished, and that's all you ask of her? Or is there something more? Some meaningful policy change, some significant reduction in global emissions, something like that, which is her goal?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Mostly I'm just reacting to stuff Greta says. For example: "Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it. We need to dismantle them all. Our political leaders can no longer shirk their responsibilities." That's her standard, not mine.

You're requiring her to actually have achieved all of these goals before you will accord her any respect at all. That's your standard, and it is impossible for her to meet.

Originally Posted by theprestige

It's certainly possible for Greta to do stuff to change my opinion. My point is that she's not doing that stuff. She's doing the other thing. I keep asking for reasons to change my opinion, and none are forthcoming. Instead I get the excuse that she doesn't owe me any reasons.

Well, she doesn't. She doesn't even know who you are and has no reason to give two rat's tails what you think of her, or what you want from her.

Originally Posted by theprestige

And, to be fair, she's done enough weird stuff already that even if she changes her message and approach drastically from here, it probably won't change my opinion on what she's done so far, or how her fan club has behaved so far.

You keep referring to her "fan club". There is no fan club. She has supporters across the world. Your use of the phrase comes across as derogatory, or at the very least, condescending.

Originally Posted by theprestige

This really comes across as you looking for excuses to not have to explain the inexplicable.

It's not for me to explain. You're demanding explanations from Greta, not from me. And she won't be able to explain it to you unless you ask her to. Are you going to do that?

No. You're not. Because you don't take her seriously because she hasn't answered the questions that you haven't asked her.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

There's another way to go about this. You could simply state, in plain language, the standard you think Greta should be held to, and the specific accomplishments she's accomplished to meet that standard.

Why should I set a standard at all? I'm not the one holding her to standards, you are. She's doing more than I am, and that's good enough for me.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Steve

Insight

From a person who is a critic of how Greta expresses herself....

[lionking]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Why should I set a standard at all? I'm not the one holding her to standards, you are. She's doing more than I am, and that's good enough for me.

Seconded

[Steve]

Originally Posted by lionking

From a person who is a critic of how Greta expresses herself....

Well, incite is his actual purpose here so no surprise that he wrote it that way.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You keep referring to her "fan club". There is no fan club.

https://www.facebook.com/GretaThunbergFanClub2/

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly

https://www.facebook.com/GretaThunbergFanClub2/

Okay there's a fan club. Not the point.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

https://media0.giphy.com/media/gh1PcN7Agxlcc/giphy.gif

Okay there's a fan club. Not the point.

Lol...I couldn't resist.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly

Lol...I couldn't resist.

Of course you couldn't.

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Why do I suspect she didn't write that all by herself?

Because it has three listed authors?

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Stout

I for one, am glad she's going to make it to COP 25. Maybe then she can explain this "drastic, sufficient action" she was recently on about.

You know that "drastic, sufficient action" that not even her most ardent supporters wanted to touch with a 10 foot pole.

Originally Posted by Stout

It's because dealing with the mechanics of of what it would take "To have a 67% chance of staying below a 1.5 degrees global temperature rise – the best odds given by the [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] – the world had 420 gigatons of CO2 left to emit back on Jan. 1st, 2018. Today that figure is already down to less than 350 gigatons.

"How dare you pretend that this can be solved with just 'business as usual' and some technical solutions? With today's emissions levels, that remaining CO2 budget will be entirely gone within less than 8 1/2 years."

Is pretty freakin' scary.

Other than somebody has to do something, Thunberg doesn't have much of a message.

Do you read/see all her posts on Twitter, for example?

Originally Posted by theprestige

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

She can start by explaining why she needed sailboat crew to fly over and help her sail to COP25.

My guess?

To prove it can be done.

(I know some stuffs about that line of thought. )

Originally Posted by theprestige

Jesus Christ.

Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it. We need to dismantle them all. Our political leaders can no longer shirk their responsibilities.

That's her message to the policy makers at COP25? "Yes, yes," says the Russian representative. "I'll go back to Moscow and get right to work on dismantling the 'colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression' upon which my nation's economy and government are founded."

I don't see anyone taking her seriously, at this point.

I mean, yes, please, let's dismantle all the colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression. But we only have about 8 years to put a hard cap on emissions and avoid a general catastrophe. Maybe we should prioritize reducing emissions, and worry about dismantling the world order later?

Though, if we did dismantle the world order, emissions would drop right off. I guess COP25 will be Greta's big test. If she can convince the world leaders to go along with this agenda, to save the planet at the expense of humanity, then I will truly recognize her as a brave campaigner.

But I predict that she won't do much at COP25, and a few weeks from now her fan club will be insulting me for daring to ask, "what exactly did Greta achieve?"

Pretty sure Thunberg's Twitter is where I saw the news that 6,000 climate studies now show we ALL need to reduce emissions by 7.6% every year till 2030.

How many followers do you think saw that?


I'm going to get up on my eco-friendly soap box while I'm here because I want to share info with you lot who are following the COP25 news etc.

Do you know what The World Economic Forum says is the #1 way to cut your emissions?

https://www.facebook.com/WEFvideo/vi...AwOTc1NjU5OTE/

Livestock takes up 4/5 of global farmland.
Cows are responsible for 65% of agricultural emissions.

# 2 is to increase your use of public transport.


How silly is "Greta"?

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I guess COP25 will be Greta's big test. If she can convince the world leaders to go along with this agenda, to save the planet at the expense of humanity, then I will truly recognize her as a brave campaigner.

Actually, if you check out my thread on Circular Economy in Business etc, it's starting to accrue more stuff about countries that already HAVE implemented global temperature/inequality reduction policies, when I get time to add it.

Or, alternatively, go to the UN website.

Sooo much info I wish I had time to read.

You aren't going to get all answers you need if you keep asking the dwindling number of people who want to argue over what, I don't know, in this thread.

Back to your "test" on Thunberg...

This thread has shown you a lot of what's being done in the world. Is that thanks to Thunberg?

Not sure what some of you are being serious or satirical about today, but there are people taking it somewhat seriously, as far as I can tell, and I find stating facts (if I can) to be working for me a lot of the time.